Uncomfortable Doctrine

[MormonMama]

1. I love you all :)

Back at'cha buddy.

There are other non-doctrinal items I was also taught, such as God literally had relations with Mary. I KNOW this came straight out of “Mormon Doctrine,” as I remember seeing the book in the instructor’s hands.

Now I have been specifically told that God did not have "sexual relations" with Mary, because the Bible and the Book of Mormon both explicitly state that she was a virgin. I was told (and keep in mind, I'm a convert) that we don't know how God's and Mary's "genetic material" (if you will) was combined, but that it did not involve sexual intercourse. And that's just within the last 10 years. I have also heard, as you and others have mentioned, that Mormon Doctrine is not considered "canon", but I know some members who absolutely believe that it is inspired doctrine.

But yes, I have also seen a lot of discrepancy among various church members as to what we have each been taught.

I agree, except the 'world' business. I was taught that God handled the entire universe. Maybe that was an Arizona thing.

I have also been taught several times over the years that we will be creators of worlds. I have always assumed that we would have our own universe, as it has also been taught to me that God is the creator of this particular universe. I, too, am in Arizona, but I know members from all over the world who have been taught this.

Edited September 5, 2008 by MormonMama

[justamere10]

If God created our decision-making capacity, then God is responsible for our decisions, and agency is a sham. It's as simple as that.

Whatever it is, "intelligence" is certainly far more than merely "spirit element".

Your earthly parents 'created' your brain. Are they responsible for how you use it?

[Elphaba]

Hi Mama,

Now I have been specifically told that God did not have "sexual relations" with Mary, because the Bible and the Book of Mormon both explicitly state that she was a virgin. I was told (and keep in mind, I'm a convert) that we don't know how God's and Mary's "genetic material" (if you will) was combined, but that it did not involve sexual intercourse. And that's just within the last 10 years. I have also heard, as you and others have mentioned, that Mormon Doctrine is not considered "canon", but I know some members who absolutely believe that it is inspired doctrine.

But yes, I have also seen a lot of discrepancy among various church members as to what we have each been taught.

Yes, I agree with you. Unfortunatley, I spent a good 15 years believing the "Church" taught there were actually relations between God and Mary. So it was good when I started visiting apologetics sites about 6 years ago...that settled that one!

Although, I think it would be amiss to say only MD made this claim. There are numerous statements from Church authorities prior to MD. But I haven't spent any time studying them, and don't plan too.

I have also been taught several times over the years that we will be creators of worlds. I have always assumed that we would have our own universe, as it has also been taught to me that God is the creator of this particular universe. I, too, am in Arizona, but I know members from all over the world who have been taught this.

Well, there you go! I knew I wasn't crazy!

That is EXACTLY what I had been taught. I don't have a problem with it not being doctrine. What I have a problem with is people, especially on boards like MADB, saying they were never taught this, and some of these people were born in the Church.

So, thank you. I feel better knowing I'm not more bonkers than normal.

Elphaba

[Justice]

I suppose a simple way to explain our different views on the nature of God would be to explain what happened at creation. When we Protestants and Catholics read Genesis 1 we are simple in our reading. In the beginning God...meaning nothing else but God. For indeed, he created--he brought into being. And, Moses tells us that prior to this creation, the world was formless...VOID.

All it says in the creation account that God created is the "heaven and earth." It goes on to explain that heaven is "firmament" (the space around the earth) and earth is "dry land." God defines it right there in the text. There has to be a whole lot of "reading into" the text to get that God was alone and that He brought everything into being from nothing. Formless or void means that there was something already there. It can't be "formless" if it doesn't exist. And, what it was void of was dry land, because that's what it says He created.

Again, we could have a long discussion about this. But, as I said, either God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith or They didn't. None of the rest of these details can be resolved until that one is resolved.

[prisonchaplain]

It's unfortunate in my opinion that so many people close their minds to the possibility that God might have spoken to more prophets than are included in the few books selected from among many others by councils of men to appear in what we call today the "Bible". Or that He ceased to speak to a living Prophet and living Apostles in our time. It's obvious from the apparently tens of thousands of Christian denominations that the Bible in itself is not enough.

Your church counts the Bible as canon--the Word of God. God does still speak today. There is prophecy. What you have that I don't is a testimony that what Joseph Smith said he saw was from God.

For example, in the beginning God created the earth. That doesn't exclude others working under His direction.

Since Jesus is God the Son, co-eternal with the Father, I agree that Jesus made everything. The Bible says this is so (Colossians 1).

God the Father also created Adam and Eve, our spirit brother and sister.

I'm not sure the signficance, but I've always considered Adam & Eve to be human parents, not brothers/sisters.

Regarding Jesus and the Holy Spirit, as I wrote previously, to Latter-day Saints they are separate beings. It is extremely confusing to me to try to comprehend a being whose image and likeness I am made in somehow having three persons inside Him, and then somehow splitting off one of those persons to be born on earth as our Savior. I just can't grasp that, it's much simpler to understand that they are three actual people.

By saying Jesus is essentially distinct from the Father the pathway is opened to multiple Gods, and yes, to human deification. At the same time, the teaching, imho, drives your church outside the monotheistic theological camp.

If God the Father was once a man working through the same kind of experience we are now working through, at that time He was NOT our Heavenly Father because we did NOT exist even in spirit form. That came later after He had gained His exaltation and created His own spirit children (us).

It is my understanding that pre-existence, in LDS theology, is eternal--that we are an eternal intelligent essence that has been granted bodies. Have I understood wrong?

[a-train]

To teach the incarnation--that God became flesh and dwelt amongst us--is a wee bit different from teaching that our God was at some point not God.

Agreed and the LDS position is that God has never NOT been God.

-a-train

[justamere10]

Your church counts the Bible as canon--the Word of God. God does still speak today. There is prophecy. What you have that I don't is a testimony that what Joseph Smith said he saw was from God.

Since Jesus is God the Son, co-eternal with the Father, I agree that Jesus made everything. The Bible says this is so (Colossians 1). I'm not sure the signficance, but I've always considered Adam & Eve to be human parents, not brothers/sisters.

By saying Jesus is essentially distinct from the Father the pathway is opened to multiple Gods, and yes, to human deification. At the same time, the teaching, imho, drives your church outside the monotheistic theological camp.

And with that testimony of Joseph Smith being God's chosen Prophet of this dispensation of the Fulness of times, I accept that the Church of Jesus Christ was restored to this earth in these last days, as prophesied. And with that Church came the Melchizedek Priesthood, the apostolic sealing power, keys, additional scriptures and a living Prophet and Apostles to help us better understand the Bible, etc. etc. With respect, you may be missing a bit of what the Saints have... But you're always invited to join with us. :)

To LDS, Adam and Eve are the first parents of the physical bodies of God's children on this earth. They are also spirit children of Heavenly Father, as we are, which makes us also brothers and sisters. But my guess is that you are well aware of that as part of our beliefs.

Yes, we have a difference in belief about the nature of God, where we came from before we arrived in mortality, why we are here, and where we are going after the death of our physical bodies. That information is available to all who care to anonymously browse at Mormon.org

But I still can't wrap my mind around the trinity work around to somehow magically or mystically turn three distinct persons into one. If Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God and God the Father is God, then there are multiple Gods right there.

Multiple gods is mentioned many times in the scriptures, it's not just something Restoration Christians came up with. But, if you can grasp an understanding that everything is just a family affair, then it's ok for there to be multiple fathers in the order of heaven as there are multiple fathers on this earth. Only one being the natural father of each human that dwells or dwelt on this planet, and only one being the natural Father of the spirit bodies that inhabit each of those mortal tabernacles.

Seems simple enough to me, but I can understand how unfamiliar such a concept would be to those who buy into the unbiblical trinity doctrine.

You write: "It is my understanding that pre-existence, in LDS theology, is eternal--that we are an eternal intelligent essence that has been granted bodies. Have I understood wrong?"

What Latter-day Saints refer to as "pre-existence" is the period of premortal time when we lived with God after being organized by Him with a spirit body, but prior to our spirit body occupying an earthly tabernacle. So pre-existence is not "eternal" as we understand time.

There is a 'missing link' though that is seldom if ever discussed among most Latter-day Saints, called "intelligence". Intelligence has never been created, it has always existed, and always will. In my understanding, a portion of that intelligence is poured into or whatever our spirit bodies when they are created/organized by our Heavenly Parent/s. Perhaps that is what is causing the confusion.

Thank-you for interacting with me, I know you don't have to, and I know that I come on strong sometimes. Enjoy the evening or whatever it is when you read this.

[prisonchaplain]

This intelligence is eternal, but would my premortal intelligence be distinct from yours? I hate to sound scifi, but is there individual sentience within that intelligence?

[justamere10]

This intelligence is eternal, but would my premortal intelligence be distinct from yours? I hate to sound scifi, but is there individual sentience within that intelligence?

Your premortal spirit body from the time it was created by Heavenly Father was distinct from mine and had the power to act for itself and make choices. It was created in the image and likeness of God. That spirit body continues to live after the death of the physical body and has opportunity to learn and progress.

Regarding the always existent "cloud of unknowing" or "intelligence" as the LDS call it, my guess is that there is no individual sentience, it's all one. But of course that is 100% speculation on my part.

I think that everything that exists has some of that intelligence within it: humans, plants, fish, animals, stones, etc. Even the earth is known in our scriptures to have a voice and speak. (The very stones we are told would have cried out if the people had not fulfilled prophesy when the Christ rode into Jerusalem on the donkey.)

But the important thing for this lifetime is our personal relationship with God and how well we keep His commandments and walk the way Jesus taught. My guess is that we will learn much more about "intelligence" at a more appropriate time.

[Vort]

Your earthly parents 'created' your brain. Are they responsible for how you use it?

My ultimate decision-making capacity does not reside in my brain. If my parents consciously created my decision-making capacity, then of course they would be responsible for it.

If God created our decision-making capacity, then very obviously he is "responsible for how [we] use it". To say otherwise is absurd, denying the very meaning of the term "decision-making capacity".

[bmy-]

Agreed and the LDS position is that God has never NOT been God.

-a-train

My Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to My Father, so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt Him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the tracks of His Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all His children. It is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn some of the first principles of the gospel, about which so much hath been said.

KFD

It plainly says that at a previous time God was not exalted. He had not yet attained the office of God.

I stress plainly because there's not much room for interpretation.

Edited September 5, 2008 by bmy-

[Iggy]

Now I have been specifically told that God did not have "sexual relations" with Mary, because the Bible and the Book of Mormon both explicitly state that she was a virgin. I was told (and keep in mind, I'm a convert) that we don't know how God's and Mary's "genetic material" (if you will) was combined, but that it did not involve sexual intercourse. And that's just within the last 10 years. I have also heard, as you and others have mentioned, that Mormon Doctrine is not considered "canon", but I know some members who absolutely believe that it is inspired doctrine.

I was converted/baptized in 1967- and I was taught that God's spirit passed into Mary and she became with child. I always thought that meant that the Holy Ghost was God's Spirit. Now as an adult I know that the Holy Ghost is a separate entity. Then I figured that if the spirit of John the Baptist could recognize the spirit of Jesus Christ while they were still in the wombs of their mother's, then that spirit that passed into Mary was the spirit of Jesus Christ.

I have also been taught several times over the years that we will be creators of worlds. I have always assumed that we would have our own universe, as it has also been taught to me that God is the creator of this particular universe. I, too, am in Arizona, but I know members from all over the world who have been taught this.

Me too- Me too- Also that God will always be our God for all eternity. That Jesus Christ will always be our Elder Brother and the Creator of Earth.

I was raised and joined the church in Seattle Washington. During all of my travels in the US, the wards and branches that I have attended- they have never said different.

No, Elphaba- you are not crazy, just a little bit nutty around the edges.

I also thought all wards/branches had Linger Longer's - My Sister's Ward in Seattle has had them for decades. I really enjoyed them when I went to visit her on my vacations. What a great way to socialize and get to know the members of your ward. (this was when I was inactive) Once every two or three months - they would have combined Linger Longer's with the other Wards- THAT was fun- MORE people to meet, get to know, socialize with.

My Branch in Oregon didn't have them- at least we didn't call them Linger Longer's- we just sat in the church and visited. Once in a while we would bring sack lunches/small pot lucks and eat out in the parking lot.

Then I moved here to AZ - and no one knows what I am talking about. They act as if I am talking in Greek to them! So I thought- well it is only my sister's Stake doing this.

Nope, found some members on another LDS forum who do this on Fast & Testimony Sundays. The members are from all over too- My sister in law in Enumclaw WA have them too.

[a-train]

It plainly says that at a previous time God was not exalted. He had not yet attained the office of God.

I stress plainly because there's not much room for interpretation.

OK, so are you telling me that before Christ's resurrection and subsequent exaltation He was NOT God?

-a-train

[Nappaljarri]

OK, so are you telling me that before Christ's resurrection and subsequent exaltation He was NOT God?

-a-train

Go and pray about it and go to the temple (that is if you are a church member??).

The temple teachings clearly teaches to me who is the Godhead. Those who don't research much in this life about the Godhead are going to be very surprised in the next life as to who it is.

As for Christ, he was the second member of the Godhead in the pre-mortal existence, this does not mean he was exalted, else why come to earth a second time and die a second time, that would not make sense. He was a member of the Godhead without having an exalted body.

[Misshalfway]

Go and pray about it and go to the temple (that is if you are a church member??).

The temple teachings clearly teaches to me who is the Godhead. Those who don't research much in this life about the Godhead are going to be very surprised in the next life as to who it is.

As for Christ, he was the second member of the Godhead in the pre-mortal existence, this does not mean he was exalted, else why come to earth a second time and die a second time, that would not make sense. He was a member of the Godhead without having an exalted body.

So he was in the Godhead but not God???

Well the Jehovah of the OT was pretty clear about being the beginning and the end.....you know?

But I suppose I can see your logic....just wondering how you back that up scripturally.

[Vanhin]

In relation to our eternal selves, Intelligence is not referring to something that is not spirit. Joseph Smith and our scriptures use the word intelligence(s), depending on context, to describe spirit matter, spirit persons, or the light of truth (same as spirit of Christ).

Intelligence has several meanings, three of which are:1 It is the light of truth which gives life and light to all things in the universe. It has always existed.2 The word intelligences may also refer to spirit children of God.3 The scriptures also may speak of intelligence as referring to the spirit element that existed before we were begotten as spirit children. (Guide to the Scriptures: Intelligence, Intelligences)

It is significant that a fourth definition is not listed, namely "a non-spirit pre-begotten intelligent being". We don't have anything in our scriptures to support such a thing. We are spirit at our core (D&C 93:33). That is the eternal part of us, just like Hemi quoted.

The Spirit of Man Not Created

The spirit of man is not a created being; it existed from eternity, and will exist to eternity. Anything created cannot be eternal; and earth, water, etc., had their existence in an elementary state, from eternity. Our Savior speaks of children and says, Their angels always stand before my Father. The Father called all spirits before him at the creation of man, and organized them. He (Adam) is the head, and was told to multiply. The keys were first given to him, and by him to others. He will have to give an account of his stewardship, and they to him. (HC 3:387.)

Regards,

Vanhin

[justamere10]

OK, so are you telling me that before Christ's resurrection and subsequent exaltation He was NOT God?

-a-train

Jesus Christ was the God of the Old Testament. But prior to his resurrection he was not yet a resurrected exalted being with His own children, as was His Father.

"God" in the full meaning of that word is a Heavenly Parent. He is the one and only natural Heavenly Father of the spirit bodies He created, He is their God. As we think of time, God was once a man like us doing as we are doing right now, with fear and trembling working out His exaltation.

That is my personal understanding, I speak only for myself of course.

[Misshalfway]

Jesus Christ was the God of the Old Testament. But prior to his resurrection he was not yet a resurrected exalted being with His own children, as was His Father.

"God" in the full meaning of that word is a Heavenly Parent. He is the one and only natural Heavenly Father of the spirit bodies He created, He is their God. As we think of time, God was once a man like us doing as we are doing right now, with fear and trembling working out His exaltation.

That is my personal understanding, I speak only for myself of course.

Well, it is indeed an interesting question.

[Still_Small_Voice]

So He was in the Godhead but not God???

Well the Jehovah of the Old Testament was pretty clear about being the beginning and the end.....you know?

But I suppose I can see your logic....just wondering how you back that up with scripture.

Jehovah (Jesus) was God's firstborn Son. He is the beginning of salvation and the end of it. The only Savior who redeems all the sons and daughters of God who believe on Him. He is the second member of the Godhead. He created worlds without number under the instruction of His Father. In the pre-mortal existence He did not have a perfect, glorified body of flesh and bones.

I could give you a list of scripture to support all what I have stated, but I do not have time currently. (I'm off to work in five minutes.)

[Misshalfway]

Jehovah (Jesus) was God's firstborn Son. He is the beginning of salvation and the end of it. The only Savior who redeems all the sons and daughters of God who believe on Him. He is the second member of the Godhead. He created worlds without number under the instruction of His Father. In the pre-mortal existence He did not have a perfect, glorified body of flesh and bones.

I could give you a list of scripture to support all what I have stated, but I do not have time currently. (I'm off to work in five minutes.)

I don't disagree with anything you have listed here.

[Vanhin]

To teach the incarnation--that God became flesh and dwelt amongst us--is a wee bit different from teaching that our God was at some point not God.

It is our doctrine that God the Father obtained a body by entering mortality, just like God the Son; and just like the Son, the Father was God before, during, and after. Our scriptures do not allow for any other understanding. We do not teach as doctrine that God was once not God. That is the speculation of some members of this Church. Neither do we teach as doctrine that God the Father had a father, because that thing has not been revealed to us. It may be a logical conclusion that some people have come to, based on the writings of prominent Church leaders/members, but it is not supported by the Standard Works. The following statement attributed to Joseph Smith, is found in our curriculum, and is doctrine that is supported by the message of all the scriptures:

“The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits.” (History of the Church, 6:310–12)

As far as I am concerned, and until we have received more on the matter, God the Father, is the infinite, eternal, and endless, from everlasting to everlasting God that the scriptures make him out to be, and the same is clearly true for the Son as well. Whatever our beliefs are, if we claim the scriptures to be the word of God, then our beliefs should be in harmony with revealed doctrine. I mean it's all over the scriptures, from the Old Testament to the Doctrine and Covenants. You have to ignore the plain message of scripture to come to the conclusion that God was not at one point God.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Justice]

My ultimate decision-making capacity does not reside in my brain. If my parents consciously created my decision-making capacity, then of course they would be responsible for it.

If God created our decision-making capacity, then very obviously he is "responsible for how [we] use it". To say otherwise is absurd, denying the very meaning of the term "decision-making capacity".

I see the definition as opposite.

Once agency is granted, that removes the one who granted it from responsibility.

Read that and think about that carefully.

This is why we must be tested, to see if we will do whatsoever God commands. If we will not do it here, where things are much more simple and limited, then we cannot be trusted with it in the eternities.

Parents cannot force their children to act a certain way. Discipline and punishment do not matter. Ultimately the child must choose to do what he is told. We can influence the child by what we teach it and by our example, but if any parent thinks they can force a child to do any single thing, they are mistaken.

If God could force anyone to do His will then this whole earthly existence would be pointless. We would all obey without question. This would be the only way God would be responsible for our actions. But, He is not; we choose.

I thank Him daily for the ability to make my own choices. Sure, it means I'm going to fail sometimes. But, it also gives me the ability to succeed. If I choose Christ and His commandments, then I can succeed. Without the ability to make that choice, I am lost and fallen... forever. He even helps us make that choice. What an amazing God we have!

Edited September 5, 2008 by Justice

[justamere10]

It is our doctrine that God the Father obtained a body by entering mortality, just like God the Son; and just like the Son, the Father was God before, during, and after. Our scriptures do not allow for any other understanding. We do not teach as doctrine that God was once not God. That is the speculation of some members of this Church. Neither do we teach as doctrine that God the Father had a father, because that thing has not been revealed to us. It may be a logical conclusion that some people have come to, based on the writings of prominent Church leaders/members, but it is not supported by the Standard Works. The following statement attributed to Joseph Smith, is found in our curriculum, and is doctrine that is supported by the message of all the scriptures:

“The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits.” (History of the Church, 6:310–12)

As far as I am concerned, and until we have received more on the matter, God the Father, is the infinite, eternal, and endless, from everlasting to everlasting God that the scriptures make him out to be, and the same is clearly true for the Son as well. Whatever our beliefs are, if we claim the scriptures to be the word of God, then our beliefs should be in harmony with revealed doctrine. I mean it's all over the scriptures, from the Old Testament to the Doctrine and Covenants. You have to ignore the plain message of scripture to come to the conclusion that God was not at one point God.

Regards,

Vanhin

And there you have it: doctrine versus mere speculation.

I tend to think that Vanhin is correct on what is LDS doctrine and teaching. For me personally, it helps to think of life the universe and everything as just a family affair. In my mind everything flows logically from there and I can position myself in familiar territory. Perhaps that doesn't work for everyone, I can only speak for myself.

[Guest ceeboo]

It is our doctrine that God the Father obtained a body by entering mortality, just like God the Son; and just like the Son, the Father was God before, during, and after. Our scriptures do not allow for any other understanding. We do not teach as doctrine that God was once not God. That is the speculation of some members of this Church.

Regards,

Vanhin

Hello Vanhin,

I have read several of your contributions as I " backed off " this thread due to my continued confusion and honestly seeming large contradictions that have and continue to be offered.

Your above qoute ( like many others ) is in total contradiction with what your first prophet and the very founder of your Church claims ( from the pulpit, I might add ). In his King Follet sermon ( I went back and read it again ) It could not be more clear, IMHO, that he tells a very different account of God then the one you and others offer, who God was before God, and indeed the ability for all of us to become Gods. In addition, JS is very clear when he " takes away the veil for us all to see " that our God was once a man of a different earth before he attained " God " of this earth.

At any rate, my confusion is growing by the minute.

God bless,

Carl

[a-train]

Go and pray about it and go to the temple (that is if you are a church member??).

The temple teachings clearly teaches to me who is the Godhead. Those who don't research much in this life about the Godhead are going to be very surprised in the next life as to who it is.

As for Christ, he was the second member of the Godhead in the pre-mortal existence, this does not mean he was exalted, else why come to earth a second time and die a second time, that would not make sense. He was a member of the Godhead without having an exalted body.

The holy endowment clearly illustrates the Godship of our LORD Jesus even before the earth's creation. He indeed, is as Moroni said on the first page of the Book of Mormon: THE ETERNAL GOD.

-a-train