Uncomfortable Doctrine


fiona84
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Hi again Vanhin,

Does God ( the exalted man of flesh and bone ) have a God and so on and so on ??

Thanks,

God bless,

Carl

We don't know. If the Supreme Ruler of the Universe has a God, it has not been revealed to us yet. The scriptures we have now tend to agree that he is the First, the Greatest, the most Intelligent, from everlasting to everlasting, infinite and eternal, and there is not one single peep about God the Father's God. Joseph Smith elaborated on the subject in the following manner:

“The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits.” (History of the Church, 6:310–12, See also LDS.org - Melchizedek Priesthood Chapter Detail - The Great Plan of Salvation)

Personally I tend to agree with the scriptures about the infinite and eternal nature of God.

By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them; And that he created man, male and female, after his own image and in his own likeness, created he them; And gave unto them commandments that they should love and serve him, the only living and true God, and that he should be the only being whom they should worship. (D&C 20:17-19)

Regards,

Vanhin

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I think you are arguing with me, yes hemi?

It's ok..bring it on. I can take it. Hahaha

Just kidding Hemi. I just feel that it is difficult to know on this subject where solid doctrine ends and speculation begins. I don't doubt what you are quoting.....I just have a hard time with some of the assumptions that sometimes follow it. That doesn't mean that I disagree with the logical conclusions....just that I can't say with certainty that it is all official doctrine that this church teaches.

No problem...as Vanhen already stated, GAs [or members] must at times, keep those received portion of the light in there heart that are not part of today's doctrine and await for the President or Prophet of the church to bear it at the pulpit as doctrine before we do. You can clearly see, I will at times stray across that boundary marker that should not be my place to give it but the prophet himself.

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Hemi, Van,

Thank you both in advance,:)

So I can clear my foggy Catholic brain.

Is it LDS official teaching that any of us " can " become a God???

Hey Ceeboo,

Yes, any of us can become a god.

It is our doctrine that mankind is godkind, and that God and man are the same species. Through the merits of Jesus Christ, and through obedience to his teachings, man can become an exalted being, with a glorified immortal body, just like God. This means that we will enjoy eternal life, which is the life that God lives, and we will be one with him.

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. (John 17:20-24)

That's what the atonement of Jesus Christ has made possible.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

Edited by Vanhin
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Seeking the goodness of God.........you are going to have to show me where in official church doctrine the pursuit of being worshipped is listed.

Becoming like God......and becoming God himself are two different ideas. The scriptures use the term "gods" with a little g. It seems to me there is a great disparity in our human ability to comprehend what this means. It hasn't been revealed completely and isn't taught as doctrine. It lies in the realms of intelligent speculation. You yourself, traveler, make some assumptions that seem to feel right to you. But they are not church doctrine and shouldn't be presented as such. That is my only point.

(see John 10:33)

I do not understand why you believe being worshiped is evil and undesirable. If you do not want to seek after something; that is fine with me but you have provided no reason at all for your objection. You have said that you know of no commandment to seek the things of G-d. Paul said to him that knoweth to do good and do it not to him it is sin.

I see two possibilities – one: you do not believe that it is good for G-d to be worshiped. (from his point of view)

Or two: You have a different understanding of worship than what I understand.

I understand worship to be recognition of G-d for his love, mercy and justice and all his acts of love, mercy and justice as well as respect for the covenants I have with him and his position (as king of heaven) in providing the covenant to the citizens of heaven. As a priesthood holder I am commanded to stand as proxy for G-d in the offering of covenants. This I consider my roll as proxy as part of my worship of him.

There is honor and respect for offices of the priesthood that I understand I must accept; not because of who I am as much as it is the title and office to which I have been called and appointed. You may see worship in the eternities as something of privilege and means to be “better” and “greater” than others. I see any such thing as a calling of responsibility and service. He who is greatest is the “servant” of all.

In general it is my impression that few understand or desire to understand the great responsibility in the covenant that G-d holds. I honor him – I love him and in every way I seek to be like him – no exceptions. I also love him such that I sorrow that anyone should think evil or bad of anything associated with G-d and his desire to share all with those that covenant with him. But if you do not want to be a part of something of G-d – I will not force it upon you nor will I take anything unto myself. I will not limit what G-d can do or his ability to pass on to who he will; anything or any honor.

I have not said that it must be but I will not say that it cannot be or should not be. If G-d does or does not command the worship of all g-ds or G-ds of heaven I will accept whatever he commands – without exception.

The Traveler

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Okay....some one PMed me the following information. It has added to my confusion and I have no rebuttal for it, nor an explaination....but of course i feel offended because I AM LDS at the end of the day and I WANT badly to be able to feel good about defending this doctrine, but honestly, I just can't right now. And this isn't helping:

"You are right, "mean" mormons are on the endangered species list! And I do not believe all mormons are going to hell, some really do understand the grace of God and the fruit shows it, I've met them. I beleive the "Church of the Lamb" and the "Church of Satan" exist in just about all churches, side by side. But nonethelesss, I would warn you that there are many harmful lies in LDS doctrine.

Before I go into the Isaiah verses I want to make it clear (and you probably already know) that the LDS Church teaches a totally different Jesus than we do (not to mention a different Gospel and Salvation which is the pursuit of Godhood). According to Joseph Smith, Jesus is only following the footsteps of his father as he followed his own father before him and so on. The LDS Jesus (and God for that matter) is "progressive" in nature and the difference between "human" and "divine" is only a matter of degrees. The LDS Jesus (and God) is part of a cycle. Also, the LDS Jesus is not exactly born of a virgin if the Heavenly Father is of flesh and blood, whether he's immortal or not.

But the Jesus I know is actually God in the Flesh, and the Gospel I know is about the pursuit of God for us, and of us for Him in return. The term in hebrew "Son of" is a means of classification. So when Jesus said that he is the Son of Man, it means that he represents all mankind before God and that he is by nature human. He is also the Son of God, which means that he represents God to us and is by nature God. The peacemkers are called sons of God because they emulate God's nature. The pharisees are called sons of the devil, or sons of perdition because they emulate the devil's nature.

So it comes down to this: which Jesus saved us? The Jesus who is a god, or the Jesus who is God? I believe in the latter, because he accepted worship from people during his earthly ministry which would be blasephemous if he were not indeed the One True God. I'll leave it there.

This list is going to be long (ok, overkill actually), but here' the Isaiah verses I had in mind (two common LDS objections to the verses I'm about to show you are 1- that God is only talking about earthly idols, and 2- that God is really saying that He is the only God on earth for us, not necesarrily the only God period. I'll think you'll find that neither hold much water):

12 Who has measured the waters in the hollow of His hand, And marked off the heavens by the span , And calculated the dust of the earth by the measure, And weighed the mountains in a balance And the hills in a pair of scales?

Who has directed the Spirit of the LORD, Or as His counselor has informed Him?

With whom did He consult and who gave Him understanding? And who taught Him in the path of justice and taught Him knowledge And informed Him of the way of understanding?

Isaiah 40:12-14 (NASB)...If what Joseph Smith taught (that God was once a man who then worked his way to the station of a god) is true then God would have had to learn all this. But the Bible says God never needed any instruction.

18 To whom then will you liken God? Or what likeness will you compare with Him?

Isaiah 40:18 (NASB)

25 "To whom then will you liken Me That I would be his equal?" says the Holy One.

Isaiah 40:25 (NASB)

28 Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth Does not become weary or tired. His understanding is inscrutable.

Isaiah 40:28 (NASB)...Joseph Smith taught that the spirit of man is "co-equal/co-eternal" with God, i.e. uncreated by God. And Brigham Young taught that there are infinite worlds with an infinite number of gods, which opens the likelihood that there are other Gods out there who are on the same level of our God. But here God says that He is Eternal and that there are none like Him. Joseph Smith also blatantly said that God was not eternally God, contradicting this verse and Psalm 90:2.

10 "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me. "I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.

Isaiah 43:10-11

6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

7 'Who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it; Yes, let him recount it to Me in order, From the time that I established the ancient nation . And let them declare to them the things that are coming And the events that are going to take place.

'Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.' "

Isaiah 44:6-8

5 "I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other,

Isaiah 45:5-6 (NASB)

18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited), "I am the LORD, and there is none else.

Isaiah 45:18 (NASB)

21 "Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.

22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.

Isaiah 45:21-22 (NASB)

9 "Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me,

Isaiah 46:9 (NASB)"

Are the things he said about Joseph Smith correct? What does our church teach regarding these NT verses?

Rest assured, I will not be swayed into thinking the LDS church is 'lies' just because of some random PM but I will not deny it leaves me squirming, much like that talk I heard on Sunday that I just wish I would have stayed home and not heard!!

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Guest ceeboo

Hemi, Vahn, Bytor, and others

Thank you all very sincerly for taking the time and trying to explain this to me:):)

I really appreciate it :)

Although it still is very confusing and honestly seems that there is contradicting beliefs from members on this thread, It is indeed very interesting.

To be fair ( shed an even light ) I will be the first to tell you that there is some contradiction in my Catholic faith regarding some doctrine as well :):) ( although it seems that it is not over such huge claims, that could possibly be my bias chiming in )

Thanks again for ALL the generous efforts.:)

God bless,

Carl

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(see John 10:33)

I do not understand why you believe being worshiped is evil and undesirable. If you do not want to seek after something; that is fine with me but you have provided no reason at all for your objection. You have said that you know of no commandment to seek the things of G-d. Paul said to him that knoweth to do good and do it not to him it is sin.

I see two possibilities – one: you do not believe that it is good for G-d to be worshiped. (from his point of view)

Or two: You have a different understanding of worship than what I understand.

I understand worship to be recognition of G-d for his love, mercy and justice and all his acts of love, mercy and justice as well as respect for the covenants I have with him and his position (as king of heaven) in providing the covenant to the citizens of heaven. As a priesthood holder I am commanded to stand as proxy for G-d in the offering of covenants. This I consider my roll as proxy as part of my worship of him.

There is honor and respect for offices of the priesthood that I understand I must accept; not because of who I am as much as it is the title and office to which I have been called and appointed. You may see worship in the eternities as something of privilege and means to be “better” and “greater” than others. I see any such thing as a calling of responsibility and service. He who is greatest is the “servant” of all.

In general it is my impression that few understand or desire to understand the great responsibility in the covenant that G-d holds. I honor him – I love him and in every way I seek to be like him – no exceptions. I also love him such that I sorrow that anyone should think evil or bad of anything associated with G-d and his desire to share all with those that covenant with him. But if you do not want to be a part of something of G-d – I will not force it upon you nor will I take anything unto myself. I will not limit what G-d can do or his ability to pass on to who he will; anything or any honor.

I have not said that it must be but I will not say that it cannot be or should not be. If G-d does or does not command the worship of all g-ds or G-ds of heaven I will accept whatever he commands – without exception.

The Traveler

I don't think you are understanding me. I don't think I ever said being worshipped was evil or undesirable. I just believe that the idea that we may be worshipped in the hereafter is speculation. I think I have explained myself so much I perhaps may turn blue at any moment.

Edited by Misshalfway
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Guest ceeboo

I don't think you are understanding me. I don't think I ever said being worshipped was evil or undesirable. I just believe that the idea that we may be worshipped in the hereafter is speculation. I think I have explained myself so much I perhaps may turn blue at any moment.

Hey Misshalfway,

That would be SOOOOOO cool, " A BLUE MISSHALFWAY " NOW THAT WOULD BE A GREAT ADDITION TO THIS FORUM.

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Fiona,

I am sorry someone is stooping to pm you. Don't look at such confusion as a starting place for understanding these concepts, Okay?

Look....start at the basics of this idea and move up. Start with the applicable sections in the D&C. Look at some of the links that Hemi listed above from the ensign.

We believe in eternal progression. I think Tom's offer is a great one. TomK has his feel squarely on the ground. You can read enough about this to get a clear understanding. Just know that there is lots of speculation woven in here. We don't know anything about any other God. Our Heavenly Father is it!!! We believe that he is everything the NT and OT and Bofm says he is. We don't know his history. He hasn't revealed that. We don't believe that God is learning either. There are just lots of ideas here floating around. Lots of people/leaders trying to piece together questions and answers and inspiration.

Follow the Spirit as you wade thru it and know that these concepts are not crucial to salvation.

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Guest Seraphim

Okay....some one PMed me the following information. It has added to my confusion and I have no rebuttal for it, nor an explaination....but of course i feel offended because I AM LDS at the end of the day and I WANT badly to be able to feel good about defending this doctrine, but honestly, I just can't right now. And this isn't helping:

"You are right, "mean" mormons are on the endangered species list! And I do not believe all mormons are going to hell, some really do understand the grace of God and the fruit shows it, I've met them. I beleive the "Church of the Lamb" and the "Church of Satan" exist in just about all churches, side by side. But nonethelesss, I would warn you that there are many harmful lies in LDS doctrine.

Before I go into the Isaiah verses I want to make it clear (and you probably already know) that the LDS Church teaches a totally different Jesus than we do (not to mention a different Gospel and Salvation which is the pursuit of Godhood). According to Joseph Smith, Jesus is only following the footsteps of his father as he followed his own father before him and so on. The LDS Jesus (and God for that matter) is "progressive" in nature and the difference between "human" and "divine" is only a matter of degrees. The LDS Jesus (and God) is part of a cycle. Also, the LDS Jesus is not exactly born of a virgin if the Heavenly Father is of flesh and blood, whether he's immortal or not.

But the Jesus I know is actually God in the Flesh, and the Gospel I know is about the pursuit of God for us, and of us for Him in return. The term in hebrew "Son of" is a means of classification. So when Jesus said that he is the Son of Man, it means that he represents all mankind before God and that he is by nature human. He is also the Son of God, which means that he represents God to us and is by nature God. The peacemkers are called sons of God because they emulate God's nature. The pharisees are called sons of the devil, or sons of perdition because they emulate the devil's nature.

So it comes down to this: which Jesus saved us? The Jesus who is a god, or the Jesus who is God? I believe in the latter, because he accepted worship from people during his earthly ministry which would be blasephemous if he were not indeed the One True God. I'll leave it there.

This list is going to be long (ok, overkill actually), but here' the Isaiah verses I had in mind (two common LDS objections to the verses I'm about to show you are 1- that God is only talking about earthly idols, and 2- that God is really saying that He is the only God on earth for us, not necesarrily the only God period. I'll think you'll find that neither hold much water):

12 Who has measured the waters in the hollow of His hand, And marked off the heavens by the span , And calculated the dust of the earth by the measure, And weighed the mountains in a balance And the hills in a pair of scales?

Who has directed the Spirit of the LORD, Or as His counselor has informed Him?

With whom did He consult and who gave Him understanding? And who taught Him in the path of justice and taught Him knowledge And informed Him of the way of understanding?

Isaiah 40:12-14 (NASB)...If what Joseph Smith taught (that God was once a man who then worked his way to the station of a god) is true then God would have had to learn all this. But the Bible says God never needed any instruction.

18 To whom then will you liken God? Or what likeness will you compare with Him?

Isaiah 40:18 (NASB)

25 "To whom then will you liken Me That I would be his equal?" says the Holy One.

Isaiah 40:25 (NASB)

28 Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth Does not become weary or tired. His understanding is inscrutable.

Isaiah 40:28 (NASB)...Joseph Smith taught that the spirit of man is "co-equal/co-eternal" with God, i.e. uncreated by God. And Brigham Young taught that there are infinite worlds with an infinite number of gods, which opens the likelihood that there are other Gods out there who are on the same level of our God. But here God says that He is Eternal and that there are none like Him. Joseph Smith also blatantly said that God was not eternally God, contradicting this verse and Psalm 90:2.

10 "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me. "I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.

Isaiah 43:10-11

6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

7 'Who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it; Yes, let him recount it to Me in order, From the time that I established the ancient nation . And let them declare to them the things that are coming And the events that are going to take place.

'Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.' "

Isaiah 44:6-8

5 "I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other,

Isaiah 45:5-6 (NASB)

18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited), "I am the LORD, and there is none else.

Isaiah 45:18 (NASB)

21 "Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.

22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.

Isaiah 45:21-22 (NASB)

9 "Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me,

Isaiah 46:9 (NASB)"

Are the things he said about Joseph Smith correct? What does our church teach regarding these NT verses?

Rest assured, I will not be swayed into thinking the LDS church is 'lies' just because of some random PM but I will not deny it leaves me squirming, much like that talk I heard on Sunday that I just wish I would have stayed home and not heard!!

Fiona: Posting derogatory remarks about the church is against the rules anywhere on this board, including via PM's. Please report the poster to us.

Seraphim

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My understanding of the doctrine of exaltation is what Joseph Smith taught:

"When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave."

When Joseph Smith says "a great while", I think of a billion years or longer. Maybe if I am judged of God to enter His Kingdom, I will get to the perfection level in two billion years. God will always be higher than us if we ever receive our exaltation. He can bestow any power or glory upon us that He desires to give. But our Father will always be our God no matter what power and glory He gives us. Anything He gives to us will always be His and we will always be His children.

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For myself, I seek to follow those doctrinal teachings that will help me to emulate Christ. I feel that if I can do that, I have no need to worry about what will happen in there hereafter. I am content to do my best, not worry about what is only speculation at this point (because, as others have said well, those things are not necessary for our salvation or exaltation), and wait and see what Heavenly Father has in store for me after I'm done on this earth. :)

I'm pretty sure that if HE chooses to bestow something upon me, I will have no trouble accepting because I will have a much greater understanding at that point than I could possibly have with my puny mortal brain at this point.

I think this is a good and healthy approach to the whole idea, Good post MormonMama

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Before I go into the Isaiah verses I want to make it clear (and you probably already know) that the LDS Church teaches a totally different Jesus than we do (not to mention a different Gospel and Salvation which is the pursuit of Godhood). According to Joseph Smith, Jesus is only following the footsteps of his father as he followed his own father before him and so on. The LDS Jesus (and God for that matter) is "progressive" in nature and the difference between "human" and "divine" is only a matter of degrees. The LDS Jesus (and God) is part of a cycle. Also, the LDS Jesus is not exactly born of a virgin if the Heavenly Father is of flesh and blood, whether he's immortal or not.

Fiona.......There is only one Jesus Christ and we believe in the same one that the Catholics believe in and the same one that all of the off-shoot Protestant denominations believe in as well. Their understanding of the Savior and salvation is based on traditional Christian orthodoxy that has been debated since the early church fell into apostasy .....and particularly since the Protestant reformation. It is odd to me that they think they know what we believe better than we do. There is only one Gospel and only one plan of salvation. We know that the Gospel was restored in it's fullness and that since that time we have been led by living Prophets and Apostles. We have an additional record that clarifies the Biblical teachings....that was preserved for our day and time to stand as an additional witness that Jesus is the Christ. If you think that some of the deeper doctrine of the church is confusing to you.....the baloney that this person PM'ed you shows that he/she is even more confused. To quote a late Apostle," the things of God can only be understood by the power of the Holy Spirit." And this person...these people don't have it. Don't let them tell you what we believe, because they don't know, as evidenced by the blather that they sent you. The Father is not a personage of flesh and blood.....he is a glorified personage of flesh and bone. We believe and the scriptures confirm this....BOM, Bible......that Jesus Christ is the only begotten of the Father and was born of a virgin. Alma Ch.7 Verse 10, "And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God."

But the Jesus I know is actually God in the Flesh, and the Gospel I know is about the pursuit of God for us, and of us for Him in return. The term in hebrew "Son of" is a means of classification. So when Jesus said that he is the Son of Man, it means that he represents all mankind before God and that he is by nature human. He is also the Son of God, which means that he represents God to us and is by nature God. The peacemkers are called sons of God because they emulate God's nature. The pharisees are called sons of the devil, or sons of perdition because they emulate the devil's nature.

Ok....Jesus Christ is Jehovah...the God of the Old Testament in the flesh. He is the only begotten Son of the Father. He is the Son of Man of Holiness. Man of Holiness is another name for Heavenly Father. Moses Ch. 6 Verse 57,.....for, in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name, and the name of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Jesus Christ, a righteous Judge, who shall come in the meridian of time.". He does represent God to us......by his character, by his attributes, by his example,...

So it comes down to this: which Jesus saved us? The Jesus who is a god, or the Jesus who is God? I believe in the latter, because he accepted worship from people during his earthly ministry which would be blasephemous if he were not indeed the One True God. I'll leave it there.

He saved us because he accepted worship?????? Jesus Christ is our advocate with the Father, he is the Son of the Living God and salvation comes in and through his atoning blood and in no other way. He drank the Father's bitter cup and took upon himself the sins of all mankind on conditions of repentance.

Are the things he said about Joseph Smith correct? What does our church teach regarding these NT verses?

Rest assured, I will not be swayed into thinking the LDS church is 'lies' just because of some random PM but I will not deny it leaves me squirming, much like that talk I heard on Sunday that I just wish I would have stayed home and not heard!!

Fiona...the church is true and as we progress spiritually the Spirit teaches us sacred truths as we are ready to recieve them. We are all at different places spiritually and some have a greater undertanding than others. But don't be dismayed....all in due time. We are Eternal beings and some things we won't understand for a very long time. The person who PM'ed you doesn't understand our doctrine.....God's doctrine, he misrepresented so many things....things commonly found on Anti web sites....he doesn't even understand the truth that he has......

Edited by bytor2112
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Guest ceeboo

Fiona.......There is only one Jesus Christ and we believe in the same one that the Catholics believe in and the same one that all of the off-shoot Protestant denominations believe in as well. Their understanding of the Savior and salvation is based on traditional Christian orthodoxy that has been debated since the early church fell into apostasy .....and particularly since the Protestant reformation. It is odd to me that they think they know what we believe better than we do.

Hello bytor,

I will do my best to give you the same latitude and respect that you have given me several times.:)

I am not sure it would be fair or accurate to imply we ( Catholics and LDS ) believe in the same Jesus Christ ??

To suggest the " early church " fell into apostasy and in the same sentence to add that "particulary since the Protestent reformation " seems to be a HUGE contradiction in itself. ( this contradiction has nothing to do with your claim of the " apostasy " which I obviously do not agree with )

God bless,

Carl

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Hello bytor,

I will do my best to give you the same latitude and respect that you have given me several times.:)

I am not sure it would be fair or accurate to imply we ( Catholics and LDS ) believe in the same Jesus Christ ??

To suggest the " early church " fell into apostasy and in the same sentence to add that "particulary since the Protestent reformation " seems to be a HUGE contradiction in itself. ( this contradiction has nothing to do with your claim of the " apostasy " which I obviously do not agree with )

God bless,

Carl

Hello Ceeboo,

Ok.....perhaps what I should have said is, that since the Protestant reformation confusion over the nature of God and salvation abounds. And yes, I know that you don't believe in the apostasy...your Catholic:D....but it is a Biblically prophesied event.

There is only one Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God...Savior and Redeemer of Mankind.....agreed? We differ in our understanding of him..perhaps...but not his mission, right? Mission to satisfy the demands of justice, to make mercy available because of the penalties of a broken law.....to atone for each of us so our sins may be forgiven....yes?

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Hello Ceeboo,

Ok.....perhaps what I should have said is, that since the Protestant reformation confusion over the nature of God and salvation abounds. And yes, I know that you don't believe in the apostasy...your Catholic:D....but it is a Biblically prophesied event.

There is only one Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God...Savior and Redeemer of Mankind.....agreed? We differ in our understanding of him..perhaps...but not his mission, right? Mission to satisfy the demands of justice, to make mercy available because of the penalties of a broken law.....to atone for each of us so our sins may be forgiven....yes?

Hi again my very respected friend bytor,:)

Not that you need to please me but for what it's worth your " clarified " definition of Jesus Christ IS ABSOBATOOTLY THE SAME AS US CRAZY CATHOLICS.:):):)

" The Great Apostasy " is a Scripture prophesied event ??????:confused: ( DO TELL )

God bless,

Carl

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Ceeboo you are awesome. I wish everyone was as respectful as you are. I've told you this personally, but so glad you have joined the site.

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Thanks everyone.

I feel a lot better about it this evening. Believe it or not, it was my non-member husband (whom I was so worried about after that darn speaker on Sunday) that actually made me feel better.

I did not discuss this 'issue' with him really, but today he said some really nice things about the church and it reminded me why I was upset in the first place....because he was there, and its HIM I really want to join the church. And why do I want him to join the church so badly? Because I believe in it!

I just don't feel its a very endearing concept to investigators or even converts like myself. Maybe it will take time...and while I'm not going to jump on the godhood bandwagon any time soon, and I do not have a testimony of it despite the great responses on here,I feel assured that my over all testimony isn't going to be hindered like i worried it would be yesterday.

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Ceeboo you are awesome. I wish everyone was as respectful as you are. I've told you this personally, but so glad you have joined the site.

Hi Pam :)

Too kind ( thank you )

I think this forum is filled ( you certainly included ) with several awesome people who respect and do there very best to contribute under the umbrella of love and Christianity.

This is the main reason I have stayed and am now " senior member " ceeboo :)

God bless,

Carl

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Hello again Ceeboo,

2 Thessolonians Ch. 2 verses 1-12

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, aby the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know awhat withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all apower and bsigns and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong elusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Timothy Ch.4 verses1-4

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Ephesians Ch 1 verse 10

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians Ch. 4 verses 11-14

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Edited by bytor2112
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