Book of Mormon geography, where did it happen?

[livy111us]

I am curious what you all think about Book of Mormon geography. Did it happen in Central America, up by the Great Lakes, or all over North and South America? What evidence do you have to support your position?

[Hemidakota]

I do concur with both Garth Norman and Doctor Ainsworth it started in Guatemala. Though, others may have valid opinions but nothing I had seen currently can address what both of these men put forth with data in depicting the first landing site for Lehi and families.

[HiJolly]

I do concur with both Garth Norman and Doctor Ainsworth it started in Guatemala. Though, others may have valid opinions but nothing I had seen currently can address what both of these men put forth with data in depicting the first landing site for Lehi and families.

I think it was there and up into southern Mexico. I disagree with Rod Meldrum (and others) who think it was in the Great Lakes area.

LDS FAIR Apologetics Homepage is a good place to read up on it. Also Mormon Apologetics & Discussion Board in their "School of the Pundits" section.

HiJolly

[SundaeSarah]

I"m still weighing in on this question. I've listened to Rod Meldrum and read his books - he gives some convincing evidence. It would be nice to know once and for all, but the jury is still out on this one.

[kona0197]

Keep in mind in the end of the BofM that the plates were buried in a hill that became New York. Keep that in mind. I believe in started in central America but spread to north America hence the Native Americans.

[livy111us]

I agree with you Kona197, and archaeological evidence supports that as well.

Sundae Sarah, what was it that was convincing in Meldrums works?

[YoungMormonRoyalist]

I believe it took place in the Ithmus area. Most archaeology indicates it to be the most likely place.

As for the scriptures being moved to New York. A GA once talked about the possibility and evidence that either Moroni our the Three Nephites moved it there in preperation for Joseph Smith.

The Hill Cumorah in NY isn't the sam in the BofM. The one in NY was named by Oliver Cowdrey.

[Moksha]

There probably isn't much evidence for the Okinawa theory as being a possible location, but it is worth mentioning. They do have a land south and a land north.

[Over43]

I like the Great Lakes area myself. But that doesn't mean the Central America region is out of the question. Remember Nephi took his people and ran. Hugh Nibley gives good evidence that ancient Americans were a little more mobile than we probably would give them credit for. I doubt they were as provincial as we might assume. Although other than the Book of Alma (outside of Nephi building his ship amd the Jaradite barges), there isn't much by way of transportation, but rivers and stream could have carried any inhabitant of the America's just about anywhere they wanted to go.

O43

[bytor2112]

I believe it took place in the Ithmus area. Most archaeology indicates it to be the most likely place.

As for the scriptures being moved to New York. A GA once talked about the possibility and evidence that either Moroni our the Three Nephites moved it there in preperation for Joseph Smith.

The Hill Cumorah in NY isn't the sam in the BofM. The one in NY was named by Oliver Cowdrey.

I am fairly certain that modern Prophets have stated that Hill Comorah in New York is where the final battle took place.......

[Hemidakota]

Let me remind you that never, did Joseph ever called that hill 'Cumorah' It was the members that used that term and called it the same original hill Cumorah from the BoM.

[checkerboy]

I'll tell you where it happened and I am 100% positive and there can be no arguement whatsoever.

It happened in the Western Hemisphere.

While it is fun to speculate and even gather evidence to defend your position the only thing I can see coming from this speculation is the setting up of opposing camps that may ultimately lead to people getting contentious over trying to prove to others that their opinion is right. We don't need any more contention. I do enjoy reading your posts though as long as they remain contention free.

[poulsenll]

I am curious what you all think about Book of Mormon geography. Did it happen in Central America, up by the Great Lakes, or all over North and South America? What evidence do you have to support your position?

Ok Livy

Since no one seems to be presenting evidence for a location I will suggest the following description of the journey of a search party sent out by King Limhi in an attempt to contact the Nephites in Zarahemla as support for a Mesoamerican location.

In Mosiah 8:

7 And the king said unto him: Being grieved for the afflictions of my people, I caused that forty and three of my people should take a journey into the wilderness, that thereby they might find the land of Zarahemla, that we might appeal unto our brethren to deliver us out of bondage.

8 And they were lost in the wilderness for the space of many days, yet they were diligent, and found not the land of Zarahemla but returned to this land, having traveled in a land among many waters, having discovered a land which was covered with bones of men, and of beasts, and was also covered with ruins of buildings of every kind, having discovered a land which had been peopled with a people who were as numerous as the hosts of Israel.

Although they failed in the attempt, they had an interesting trip.

Some features of the trip verse 8.

1. The trip started in a wilderness area, presumably the Narrow Strip of Wilderness to the north of the Land of Nephi.

2. they traveled in a land among many waters.

3. They then discovered a land covered by ruins.

Later in Mosiah 21:

25 Now king Limhi had sent, previous to the coming of Ammon, a small number of men to search for the land of Zarahemla; but they could not find it, and they were lost in the wilderness. 26 Nevertheless, they did find a land which had been peopled; yea, a land which was covered with dry bones; yea, a land which had been peopled and which had been destroyed; and they, having supposed it to be the land of Zarahemla, returned to the land of Nephi, having arrived in the borders of the land not many days before the coming of Ammon.

Mormon tells us that having supposed that the ruins were from the destruction of Zarahemla, they returnded to the land of Nephi. After only two generations from the time thy left the land of Zarahemla, it is reasonable for them to know that the city of Zarahemla was located next to the river Sidon and on the west bank. Therefore they would have been looking for a city located on the west bank of a river flowing to the north. In order to find such a city they would have had to follow along the left bank of a major river until they came to the City of Zarahemla.

Now lets examine the following satellite map.

If one travels north along the Usamacinta River, one first comes to a land of many waters. Continuing on to the west one crosses the original course of the Grijalva River and right there on the west bank are the ruins of La Venta, a major ruins essentially deserted some 250 years before the Limhite arrival. If they had traveled down the Grijalva River, missing Zarahemla because it was located on the Usamacinta, they would have returned to the land of Nephi without ever traveling through the land of many waters. They therefore must have chosen the Usamacita by mistake, another story, missed Zarahemla, traveled among many waters, found ruins and returned by the same route to the land of Nephi.

This convergence between the text, the archeological record and the geography of the Grijalva and Usamacinta river basins is strong support, not proof, for a Mesoamerican location for the Book of Mormon Culture.

Larry P

[bytor2112]

Let me remind you that never, did Joseph ever called that hill 'Cumorah' It was the members that used that term and called it the same original hill Cumorah from the BoM.

Numerous Prophets and Apostles have affirmed that the Hill Cumorah in upstate New York is the location of the the final conflicts found in the Book of Mormon. Mormon Doctrine, Doctrines of Salvation and numerous Conference talks as well as the Journal of Discourses.....which I know are not supposed to be historically factual. But none the less,

it is very evident that this has been a long held belief. Doesn't matter to me, New York or Meso America.......

[livy111us]

Thanks for posting Larry, very interesting as always.

Bytor, here is an interesting article on Cumorah:

Archaeology and the Hill Cumorah - FAIRMormon

[HiJolly]

Numerous Prophets and Apostles have affirmed that the Hill Cumorah in upstate New York is the location of the the final conflicts found in the Book of Mormon. Mormon Doctrine, Doctrines of Salvation and numerous Conference talks as well as the Journal of Discourses.....which I know are not supposed to be historically factual. But none the less,

it is very evident that this has been a long held belief. Doesn't matter to me, New York or Meso America.......

I don't care whether it's a prophet, an apostle, or me--- this still applies:

The trouble ain’t that people are ignorant; it’s that they know so much that ain’t so.

-- Josh Billings

HiJolly

[Moksha]

Any thought as to whether the hill may be located outside the town of Moroni on the Comoros Island, near where Captain Kidd was rumored to have buried his golden treasure?

[livy111us]

Right, we must remember that Joseph Smith was a well-published geographer. He knew every island in all the oceans. Even islands that are about 40 miles long and 15-20 miles wide that are obscure to 99.9% of the worlds population (except critics) that are in the Indian Ocean, and even more of Islands who names it's capital Moroni in 1876, 46 years after the publication of the Book of Mormon, that at the time of it's publication, was nothing more than a small village. Even in 1958, it only had 6500 residents. On top of that, Moroni was not in any published Gazateer that Joseph Smith would have access to, and would not be published until after his death. That one?

[Moksha]

and even more of Islands who names it's capital Moroni in 1876, 46 years after the publication of the Book of Mormon,

Actually, I was joking around.

However according to the Encyclopedia Brittanica, Moroni the coastal town, capital, and largest settlement of Comoros, southwestern Grande Comore in the Indian Ocean. It was founded by Arabic-speaking settlers, possibly as early as the 10th century ad. Dzaoudzi, the principal city of the island of Mayotte, was the original administrative capital of Comoros, but Moroni succeeded it in 1958. So two things: it was not the capital in 1876 and it had been around for a long time. In the famous stories of Captain Kidd in the 1800s, the Island on the map was called Camora.

[livy111us]

Oops. It's hard to sense sarcasm in a text.

Hmmm....Fair wiki says 1876, wikipedia says 1962, and the Brittanica 1958. Either way, it was long after Joseph Smith was dead. Perhaps the author of the FAIR wiki confused the movement of Sultan Sa'id Ali to Moroni in 1876, with it's being made capital.

[bytor2112]

I don't care whether it's a prophet, an apostle, or me--- this still applies:

The trouble ain’t that people are ignorant; it’s that they know so much that ain’t so.

-- Josh Billings

HiJolly

So your saying.......that what they know about this just ain't so???

[kona0197]

Right, we must remember that Joseph Smith was a well-published geographer.

I find that hard to swallow as I've read that he only had a third grade schooling.

[john doe]

I find that hard to swallow as I've read that he only had a third grade schooling.

Please see post #20 in this thread.

[livy111us]

I find that hard to swallow as I've read that he only had a third grade schooling.

I was being sarcastic. Critics, in order for their theories to work, need Joseph Smith to have a PhD in Mesoamerican archaeology, MIddle Easter Studies, Ancient Christian Studies, Geography, Theology, be a master at Hebrew poetry and stylistic writings, etc... and also have access to the internet and a time machine.

There is NO WAY he could have known a thousandth of what he knew without either those things, or Gods help.

[livy111us]

So your saying.......that what they know about this just ain't so???

I would agree with Hijolly on this one. The text speaks of two Cumorahs. Ether 15:11 tells us that the Jaredite hill Ramah is the same which Mormon buried the many plates.

Mormon 6:6 says

"And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon...made this record [the plates of Mormon] out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save [except] it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni."

So all the plates of Nephi were buried in that Cumorah except for the Gold Plates which were taken by Moroni and eventually buried in New York. So we have one Cumorah called by the name Ramah by the Jaredites, which there were many plates buried, and another Cumorah where Moroni buried the Gold plates. So the Book of Mormon clearly refers to two separate, disctinct Cumorahs.

Past leaders have assumed that what we know as the hill Cumorah is the Hill Cumorah in the BOM. But it did not get it's name from Joseph Smith, but by either WW Phelps, or Oliver Cowdery (see Rex C. Reeve, Jr., and Richard O. Cowan, "The Hill Called Cumorah," in Regional Studies in LDS History: New York and Pennsylvania, edited by Larry C. Porter, Milton V. Backman, Jr., and Susan Easton Black (Provo, Utah: Department Church History and Doctrine, Brigham Young University, 1992), 71–89 (see especially pp. 73–74), and that name has stuck.

These past leaders made the assumption that it was the same Cumorah as mentioned in the BOM, and stated what they thought to be true on the subject.