The Sacrament of Holy Communion


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This thread comes from a discussion on the Alcohol Thread on the the sacrament of Holy Communion.

Here is the quote in part: "i suppose we can use lemonade if we want lol, anything would be fine so long as it is non alcoholic."

A point was made by a member that anything but an alcohol based drink (ie Wine) would be OK for the Sacrament of Holy Communion.

As a Catholic-I consider a Sacrament as something Holy or Sacred.

I can see a view whereby one would wish to use non-fermented wine in such a sacrament or use wine-as is the case in the Catholic Church and other churches.

I know of no church that uses Lemonade or similar in such a sacrament.

What is the LDS position?-and why?-is grape juice used? water? -or does it not matter?

If you are of another faith tradition-please share your understandings also.

-Carol

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So-or are there limitations-and who decides?

This D&C was in Harmony Pennsylvania-what about before that date?

so-since August 1830-the date of the D&C Section 27-has the LDS Church always used water?

-Carol

We use water. The Sacrament prayer is found in Moroni Ch. 4 and Ch. 5. You may notice that the prayer says "wine". Doctrine and Covenants Ch. 27 verse2, explains that it does not matter what is used for the Sacrament if it is done with an eye single to Chrits's glory.

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Pretty sure the Methodists use grape juice. Anyway, since we view the Eucharist as substitutionary, I suppose extending that substitution of water as being symbolic of the blood of Christ, rather than wine, is not a huge stretch. Water does seem a bit anemic in that sense, but it sure does make for less stains on all those white shirts.

Abqfriend, I don't know if you have attended a Mormon Sacrament meeting before, but feel free if you would like to, in order to get a better view of this first hand.

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As a Catholic Christian-I could not see Lemonade ever being used in the Sacrament. I could see grape juice used instead of wine-as is the case in some Protestant faith traditions-but I could not see Lemonade used.

I also would have a problem with water-but more of a problem with Lemonade or the teaching/revelation that anything could be used in the Sacrament as long as with a good intention as revealed in D&C 27:2

I should attend an LDS sacramental service sometime-but I would refrain myself from taking communion-as I would do in visiting any non Catholic church.

-Carol

It was me who mentioned " Lemonade " i was getting at the fact that even lemonade would be preferable and more suitable than Alcohol.

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As a Catholic Christian-I could not see Lemonade ever being used in the Sacrament. I could see grape juice used instead of wine-as is the case in some Protestant faith traditions-but I could not see Lemonade used.

I also would have a problem with water-but more of a problem with Lemonade or the teaching/revelation that anything could be used in the Sacrament as long as with a good intention as revealed in D&C 27:2

I should attend an LDS sacramental service sometime-but I would refrain myself from taking communion-as I would do in visiting any non Catholic church.

-Carol

Carol, really, what difference would it really make? It seems to me that you are nit picking this to death. Is it because water, lemonade, etc is not the color of blood?

We use bread (any kind of bread) and water. What about members who live in third world countries who do not know what bread is? Then I presume that they would use something similar.

I also get the impression that you feel we are not as reverent regarding our Sacrament, that we are a bit cavalier about it. We are not. It is a very solemn and reverent service. Even the very young children are reverent and mostly quiet during this service. I was noticing last Sunday that the passing of the Sacrament now takes 20 minutes in our Ward- compared to the 9 minutes when I first moved here. That is how big our Ward has grown!

The LDS do not believe that the bread and water are in fact the literal body and blood of Christ. We believe that the bread and water stand in similitude - We partake of it in remembrance of Him.

Here are the prayers:

Doctrine & Covenants 20: 77 O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this abread to the souls of all those who partake of it, that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and bwitness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him and keep his ccommandments which he has given them; that they may always have his dSpirit to be with them. Amen.

79 O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this awine (water) to the souls of all those who drink of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.

Bold added by me.

The underlined words bread and wine are referenced:

Bread: Luke CHAPTER 22 19 ¶ And he took abread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my bbody which is cgiven for you: this do in dremembrance of me.

Wine: D&C 27: 2-4. 2 For, behold, I say unto you, that it mattereth not what ye shall aeat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my bglory—cremembering unto the Father my dbody which was laid down for you, and my eblood which was shed for the fremission of your sins.

I take this meaning that we could use cows or goats milk, coconut milk, or fruit juice as long as we did so in reverence. We could use crackers, corn chips, or tortillas.

If we did need to use something other than water- say the water in our area is totally undrinkable, then our Bishop and Stake President would get permission from the First Presidency to do so. At least that is how the line of authority goes in our Church. The Bishop goes to the Stake President, the Stake President goes to the First Presidency.

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As a Catholic Christian-I could not see Lemonade ever being used in the Sacrament. I could see grape juice used instead of wine-as is the case in some Protestant faith traditions-but I could not see Lemonade used.

I also would have a problem with water-but more of a problem with Lemonade or the teaching/revelation that anything could be used in the Sacrament as long as with a good intention as revealed in D&C 27:2

I should attend an LDS sacramental service sometime-but I would refrain myself from taking communion-as I would do in visiting any non Catholic church.

-Carol

Traditionally its bread and water. The way I look at it is lets say there was some kind of disaster where certain items were unattainable. Say there is no bread available. It is more important to take the sacrament. Therefore we would substitute bread with something similar.

What would the Catholic church do in such a matter? Just out of curiousity.

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There is no true Sacrament according to the- Catholic Church unless the Priest transubstantiates (I know -a big word-means "change") the unleavened bread - made of wheat and water only) and the wine--set apart for sacramental use--to the "body, blood, soul and divinity" as the Catholic Church understands it--of Christ.

We believe we are taking in the actual body/blood of Christ in the Sacrament as we understand it.

We also have the "reserved sacrament" which are the hosts/bread not distributed during a given service/mass. These are given to specially trained Eucharistic Ministers who can carry the sacred host/bread in a special container to the sick and shut-in of the parish as well as to Catholics in hospitals and nursing homes. - So they can partake of the Sacrament without having been to Mass through no fault of their own.

Weekly Mass is a Requirement of our faith-and it is considered a sin to not go to Mass unless prevented from going so by sickness or ill health.

If you visit a Catholic Church-you will see an area with a candle or light upon it always-where the reserved sacrament is placed-we consider this a very holy place. One reason why Catholics bow/genuflect before entering the pew is in humble respect for Christ being truly present as we understand it. We also make the sign of the cross as a reminder to us of our Baptism-baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit- so there is much symbolism present in our worship/liturgy to remind us of the sacraments as we understand them. We take a small amount of water-sometimes called holy water-as the water has been set aside for sacramental use-to make the sign of the cross upon us when entering and leaving church-again to remind us of our baptism.

I realize the meaning of the sacraments and symbolism of our Church may be different than those of the LDS Church.

-Carol

-so-there would be no Mass, No Sacrament unless this were present.

There is a thing called "reserved sacrament" whereby the body/host is taken in a special container to the sick and shut-ins by Eucharistic Ministers who can distribute the Eucharist.

We have assistants in our Mass-specially trained people-who are allowed to distribute the Sacrament.

Traditionally its bread and water. The way I look at it is lets say there was some kind of disaster where certain items were unattainable. Say there is no bread available. It is more important to take the sacrament. Therefore we would substitute bread with something similar.

What would the Catholic church do in such a matter? Just out of curiousity.

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A while back my Home teacher shared a story with my family from a book about the early LDS church in Florida. The congrgations were very small and the Sacrament cup was a community cup....everyone drank from the same cup. In this story....the Bishop chewed tobacco and since the Bishop partakes of the Sacrament first....everyone else had an interesting mix of "Redman" and water. Some of the sisters complained and the Bishop had to stop chewing tobacco before Sacrament. Good job sisters....:lol::lol:
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Online LDS References for the purpose of the Sacrament:

The Restoration of the Sacrament (Part 1: Loss and Christian Reformations)

in Ensign Jan. 1992 by Richard Lloyd Anderson

...1992 >> January The Restoration of the Sacrament (Part 1: Loss and Christian Reformations ... Lloyd Anderson, "The Restoration of the Sacrament (Part 1: Loss and Christian Reformations ... the Bible. 1 One central covenant, the sacrament, has particularly suffered. Historical ...

The Restoration of the Sacrament (Part 2: A New and Ancient Covenant)

in Ensign Feb. 1992 by Richard Lloyd Anderson

...1992 >> February The Restoration of the Sacrament (Part 2: A New and Ancient Covenant) By ... Lloyd Anderson, "The Restoration of the Sacrament (Part 2: A New and Ancient Covenant)," ... Ensign, Feb 1992, 10 The Latter-day Saint sacrament prayers are part of the founding revelation...

Remembering the Savior's Atonement

in Ensign Apr. 1988 by David B. Haight

...Savior's Atonement," Ensign, Apr 1988, 7 Sacrament meeting should be a time of reverence, ... atonement, and the effectiveness of our sacrament meetings. When we contemplate the most sacred meetings in the Church, sacrament meeting is one of the most important. However...

As Now We Take the Sacrament

in Ensign May 2006 by L. Tom Perry

...Ensign >> 2006 >> May As Now We Take the Sacrament Elder L. Tom Perry Of the Quorum of the ... mail L. Tom Perry, "As Now We Take the Sacrament," Ensign, May 2006, 39-42 Partaking of the sacrament

provides us with a sacred moment in a holy...

The Sacrament

in Conference Report, April 1983 by David B. Haight

...The Sacrament Elder David B. Haight Of the Quorum of ... Twelve Apostles David B. Haight, A*The Sacrament,A* Ensign, May 1983, 12 I wish everyone ... the center of this elevated area was the sacrament table. On the highest level of the stand...

The Sacrament

in Ensign May 1983 by David B. Haight

...-day Saints Ensign >> 1983 >> May The Sacrament Elder David B. Haight Of the Quorum of ... * Print * E-mail David B. Haight, "The Sacrament," Ensign, May 1983, 12 Image I wish ... the center of this elevated area was the sacrament table. On the highest level of the stand...

Sacrament Meeting and the Sacrament

in Ensign Sept. 2001 by Vaughn J. Featherstone

...day Saints Ensign >> 2001 >> September Sacrament Meeting and the Sacrament By Elder Vaughn ... Print * E-mail Vaughn J. Featherstone, "Sacrament Meeting and the Sacrament," Ensign, Sep 2001, 23 When we partake of the sacrament with a sincere heart, with real intent,...

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This thread comes from a discussion on the Alcohol Thread on the the sacrament of Holy Communion.

Here is the quote in part: "i suppose we can use lemonade if we want lol, anything would be fine so long as it is non alcoholic."

A point was made by a member that anything but an alcohol based drink (ie Wine) would be OK for the Sacrament of Holy Communion.

As a Catholic-I consider a Sacrament as something Holy or Sacred.

I can see a view whereby one would wish to use non-fermented wine in such a sacrament or use wine-as is the case in the Catholic Church and other churches.

I know of no church that uses Lemonade or similar in such a sacrament.

What is the LDS position?-and why?-is grape juice used? water? -or does it not matter?

If you are of another faith tradition-please share your understandings also.

-Carol

In the early churches the wine was mixed with water, as was the custom of the Jews, for their wine, as an ancient writer, quoted by Lightfoot, says, "was very strong, and not fit to drinking, unless water was mixed with it." In most churches the wine used for the Sacrament is diluted with water, and at one time clergymen were instructed to mix the wine with "a little pure and clean water." In the early centuries of our era some converts demanded that water be used instead of wine. From one of their leaders, Tatian, they are called Tatiani. They are also known as HydroparastatÃ, or Aquarii. They were centuries ahead of their time and therefore condemned as heretics.

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Thanks for the great links-and much information on the LDS view of the Sacrament.

The sacrament of holy communion would probably be the greatest difficulty for me in ever becoming an LDS member , so I will remain a Catholic. I find much to like about the LDS faith tradition-but the Sacrament of the Eucharist/Communion is important to me as I have learned about it and practiced it in my Catholic faith tradition.

So-I will remain here as an "investigator"-but will probably remain a Roman Catholic.

I have met some great people here-and most have been cordial to me on this forum-with you being one of the nicest!

Peace,

-Carol

In the early churches the wine was mixed with water, as was the custom of the Jews, for their wine, as an ancient writer, quoted by Lightfoot, says, "was very strong, and not fit to drinking, unless water was mixed with it." In most churches the wine used for the Sacrament is diluted with water, and at one time clergymen were instructed to mix the wine with "a little pure and clean water." In the early centuries of our era some converts demanded that water be used instead of wine. From one of their leaders, Tatian, they are called Tatiani. They are also known as HydroparastatÃ, or Aquarii. They were centuries ahead of their time and therefore condemned as heretics.

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Hi Carol,

As we prepare to take the Sacrament we sing a hymn.....I wish you could hear for your self the reverence we have as we prepare for this sacred occaision. Here are the words to one of my favorites.....I may post more. You will find that our hymns are very reverent...no country music twaing here. They are very representative of how we approach the Father in prayer and how we view the Sacrament.

1. As now we take the sacrament,

Our thoughts are turned to thee,

Thou Son of God, who lived for us,

Then died on Calvary.

We contemplate thy lasting grace,

Thy boundless charity;

To us the gift of life was giv’n

For all eternity.

2. As now our minds review the past,

We know we must repent;

The way to thee is righteousness—

The way thy life was spent.

Forgiveness is a gift from thee

We seek with pure intent.

With hands now pledged to do thy work,

We take the sacrament.

3. As now we praise thy name with song,

The blessings of this day

Will linger in our thankful hearts,

And silently we pray

For courage to accept thy will,

To listen and obey.

We love thee, Lord; our hearts are full.

We’ll walk thy chosen way.

Edited by bytor2112
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Another of my favorites.....

1. O God, th’Eternal Father,

Who dwells amid the sky,

In Jesus’ name we ask thee

To bless and sanctify,

If we are pure before thee,

This bread and cup of wine,

That we may all remember

That offering divine—

2. That sacred, holy off’ring,

By man least understood,

To have our sins remitted

And take his flesh and blood,

That we may ever witness

The suff’ring of thy Son,

And always have his Spirit

To make our hearts as one.

3. When Jesus, the Anointed,

Descended from above

And gave himself a ransom

To win our souls with love—

With no apparent beauty,

That man should him desire—

He was the promised Savior,

To purify with fire.

4. How infinite that wisdom,

The plan of holiness,

That made salvation perfect

And veiled the Lord in flesh,

To walk upon his footstool

And be like man, almost,

In his exalted station,

And die, or all was lost.

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Ok just one more.....

1. Rev’rently and meekly now,

Let thy head most humbly bow.

Think of me, thou ransomed one;

Think what I for thee have done.

With my blood that dripped like rain,

Sweat in agony of pain,

With my body on the tree

I have ransomed even thee.

2. In this bread now blest for thee,

Emblem of my body see;

In this water or this wine,

Emblem of my blood divine.

Oh, remember what was done

That the sinner might be won.

On the cross of Calvary

I have suffered death for thee.

3. Bid thine heart all strife to cease;

With thy brethren be at peace.

Oh, forgive as thou wouldst be

E’en forgiven now by me.

In the solemn faith of prayer

Cast upon me all thy care,

And my Spirit’s grace shall be

Like a fountain unto thee.

4. At the throne I intercede;

For thee ever do I plead.

I have loved thee as thy friend,

With a love that cannot end.

Be obedient, I implore,

Prayerful, watchful evermore,

And be constant unto me,

That thy Savior I may be.

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-so-there would be no Mass, No Sacrament unless this were present.

There is a thing called "reserved sacrament" whereby the body/host is taken in a special container to the sick and shut-ins by Eucharistic Ministers who can distribute the Eucharist.

We have assistants in our Mass-specially trained people-who are allowed to distribute the Sacrament.

Thank you. I love that we can be here together to learn about each others beliefs. In light of those who come here to tell us how wrong we are, I think I speak for all of us when I say how blessed we are to have you here.

I have to agree with bytor. I LOVE our sacrament. It is the one time when the chapel is completely silent. Ok nearly completely silent. You have the babies cooing or crying, but other than that it is completely reverent. Even young children will bow their heads in reverence. Most of them have a basic understanding of the importance of that moment. Definately not a full understanding, but a very basic one. My son who will be 3 at the end of November knows that he is supposed to be thinking of Jesus. Believe me, its hard for him, but he trys. He does really well too. He usually needs a book to look at to help him stay quiet, but he knows its an important time.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I have to agree with bytor. I LOVE our sacrament. It is the one time when the chapel is completely silent.

That's one thing I was very impressed with at the sacrament meetings I've attended, people were very reverant. They also dressed better, I wish Catholics still believed in wearing their Sunday best every week, instead of just Easter and Christmas (maybe).

As to the wine/water/grape juice/lemonade discussion, Catholics use wine because it's what Jesus did at the Last Supper. The Bible doesn't actually say that it was wine, but that's what Jews drank at passover, which is what the Last Supper was. So the RCC will always use wine.

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That's one thing I was very impressed with at the sacrament meetings I've attended, people were very reverant. They also dressed better, I wish Catholics still believed in wearing their Sunday best every week, instead of just Easter and Christmas (maybe).

As to the wine/water/grape juice/lemonade discussion, Catholics use wine because it's what Jesus did at the Last Supper. The Bible doesn't actually say that it was wine, but that's what Jews drank at passover, which is what the Last Supper was. So the RCC will always use wine.

I just wanted to pause here and say a special thank you to August and Carol. So often our beliefs are challenged and we often need to go into "present the case" mode and you know.....it is nice not to have to do that here. We can just say....."this is how we do it" and then look over at how our friends do it.....and breath out in acceptance for one another.

Breath of fresh air!!! And I thank the both of you for your ability to NOT become threatened by a differing point of view. This thread gives me rest.....and hope. :)

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The Bible doesn't actually say that it was wine, but that's what Jews drank at passover, which is what the Last Supper was. So the RCC will always use wine.

I'm just glad that they did not use strawberry soda. I hate that stuff. Of course, we might have declared it to be heretical anyway, so it would be a moot issue.

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  • 1 month later...

-so-there would be no Mass, No Sacrament unless this were present.

Out of curiosity, where do catholic priests obtain the bread/wine for the sacrament/communion? Is the eucharist something that must be made by "official" bakers (I cannot think of a better term)? Is the wine from specific vineyards? Or, can the local priest/clergyman purchase flour (to make bread) and wine from the local grocery store?

If the product is from a specific origin (baker/vineyard), what is the significance of that origin?

This is an interesting subect. I hope to learn more.

Thanks,

James

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The Catholic Church has strict rules on what the wafer/unleavened bread may be made of and the kind of wine. Generally they are obtained from Catholic supply houses. Some bread/wafers are made by groups of nuns.

To be specific Canon Law 924 section 2.

" The bread used in the celebration of the Most Holy Eucharistic Sacrifice must be unleavened, purely of wheat, and recently made so that there is no danger of decomposition. It follows therefore that bread made from another substance, even if it is grain, or if it is mixed with another substance different from wheat to such an extent that it would not commonly be considered wheat bread, does not constitute valid matter for confecting the Sacrifice and the Eucharistic Sacrament. It is a grave abuse to introduce other substances, such as fruit or sugar or honey, into the bread for confecting the Eucharist. Hosts should obviously be made by those who are not only distinguished by their integrity, but also skilled in making them and furnished with suitable tools."

A lengthy Vatican document on the subject is found here:

Instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum

Another lengthy document on tthe Sacrament and the importance of it including the validity of the sacrament is found here:

OSV | My Catholic Faith | The Eucharist | Why Matter Matters

Incidentally-since the wine is used for sacramental use only-it is not taxed by the state or federal governments.

-Carol

Out of curiosity, where do catholic priests obtain the bread/wine for the sacrament/communion? Is the eucharist something that must be made by "official" bakers (I cannot think of a better term)? Is the wine from specific vineyards? Or, can the local priest/clergyman purchase flour (to make bread) and wine from the local grocery store?

If the product is from a specific origin (baker/vineyard), what is the significance of that origin?

This is an interesting subect. I hope to learn more.

Thanks,

James

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I am guessing any liquid can be substiuted for the water in the sacrament, I know during times when we have had members of the congreations with wheat allergies, I have when not paying attention popped some weird and wonderful things in my mouth instead of bread lol (rice cakes and oatcakes are the favourite)- the branch president has at least requested that the deacons run the water from the tap first and that those bringing in bread make sure its not stale.

But for us its the blessing by the priesthood is what makes it sacred so anything would work I guess..

-Charley

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