Swaying With The Tides of Popular Opinion Today


Prodigal_Son
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The other thing that came to me as I considered your post, was that: just because an idea is unpopular (democracy in this case) doesn't mean we shouldn't pursue it. Christ's agenda wasn't real hip at the time, nor was Joseph Smith's. But right is right. Democracy is necessary for God's children to exercise their God-given agency. Hinckley declared it our duty to make that path as accessible to as many as we possibly could...

Prod,

Are you somehow equating the occupation of Iraq with the spread of the Gospel? Or, in other words, are you saying that this occupation is preparing the way for missionaries to soon serve in free Iraq?

-a-train

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If my points are valid, then there is no positive information that stands in opposition. If there were, it would negate my point.

How are you not seeing the fallacy of your argument? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. But here's what I see: "I have a list of negative things resulting from this war. Thus, the war is bad." You are seriously going to claim that there has been NOTHING BUT HORROR AND EVIL come to exist from what we've done?

It's not as if these things cannot be easily documented. So, I assure you, my comments on these specific points are accurate.

Again, you focused on YOUR favorite points, to the exclusion of any counterpoints.

The truth is I would be ecstatic to see REAL positive progress for the Iraqi citizens, as the last five years have been one horror after another for them. They are severely stressed with PTSD, living with bombs going off outside their homes, terrified if the leave their houses they will be kidnapped, tortured or murdered. Sick to death with fear for their loved ones. American troops smashing their way into their houses, leaving destroyed rooms behind them. And these are only a few of the terrors they face every day of their lives.

And you think the Saints in Missouri were living the dream? Once more, you're painting an inaccurate portrait. Not to mention the fact that you're indirectly implying that life was good under Saddam Hussein.

Excuse me? You‘ve been on the board for a month, and presume you know me well enough to accuse me of ignoring evidence? Amazing.

Belittling me doesn't help. If you can really claim that this war has done zero good, then I'll not continue this discussion. You can commiserate with others who are so one sidedly blind elsewhere...

I’ll let it go this time, but in the future would you please have proof illustrating I am doing as you say?

Um... thanks for your mercy? "He (or she) who takes offense when none is intended is a fool..."

In response to your demands for information, I'll return you to God's oracle:

"The terrible forces of evil must be confronted and held accountable for their actions…

"We are people of peace. We are followers of the Christ who was and is the Prince of Peace. But there are times when we must stand up for right and decency, for freedom and civilization..."

Do you seriously feel good about claiming that Saddam Hussein should still be running the show for the Iraqi people? A man who, during 23 years of TERROR, was responsible for the deaths of thousands upon thousands of God's children? And yet, because we go in to clean up the mess, we're the bad guys? Sheesh...

========

I don't know what I said to upset you so - save it be to point out that you're ignoring the other side of the coin... unless, of course, you genuinely believe that no good has come of our efforts. If that IS what you believe, then I apologize for presuming you were a reasonably rational individual.

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Prod,

Are you somehow equating the occupation of Iraq with the spread of the Gospel? Or, in other words, are you saying that this occupation is preparing the way for missionaries to soon serve in free Iraq?

No. That would be a pretty oblique interpretation of God's words. My point (apparently poorly made) was that democracy is key to the spread of the gospel - and the rights of citizens of varying countries to accept God's word and freely obey it without reprisal from government. Thus, the spread of democracy opens the windows of heaven a bit wider, and enables us to carry the gospel a bit faster.

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Cheney tells the truth: Invading Iraq would be a quagmire. Unfortunately, this was in 1993 after the Gulf war.

What happened, indeed.

Elphaba

Perhaps someone placed one of those extra-terrestrial pod plants by his bedside one night between then and now. Those plant duplicates may look the same, but have a noted propensity toward radically different behavior.

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The Book of Mormon warns us of attacking the enemy without major provocation in their own land. It was when the Nephites, in their wrath, went into Lamanite lands and attacked them that the Lord withdrew his protection and Spirit from them. As Americans, we need to tread carefully when it comes to attacking or invading another nation. What may have been a noble cause at the beginning can be forgotten or lost during a long war.

At the other end of the spectrum are the righteous Lamanites, who first tried the word on the Gadianton Robbers, but also sent armies into the wilderness to destroy them. Sometimes one has no choice but to fight. And back in 2002, the only thing we could see was tens of millions of potential terrorists potentially blowing up our nation. In one day, they cost us almost $1 trillion economically. The fear that more attacks were going to occur caused us to have a very forceful intervention, though poorly implemented by Rumsfeld.

Had Colin Powell been allowed to run the war in Iraq, and we'd won it decisively and quickly put down the terrorists and insurgents, I doubt we'd have the concerns we have today. Hindsight is 20/20.

Has any good come from this? Well, there is greater peace in certain portions of the nation, including the north and south. While terrorism continues, the thousands of Iraqi deaths that have occurred in the last 5 years are still way fewer than those occurring during Saddam's reign of terror.

Freedom of press and assembly are improved. The Baath party is not the only party in town. So, while there's ways to go, it has improved in many ways. Kurds and Shi'a do not have worry about massacres as they once did. Nor do they have to worry about being bombed with chemical weapons as before. So, some things definitely are better.

But war is never a pretty thing. If it was, I suppose there would be 10 times the number going on right now.

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Do you seriously feel good about claiming that Saddam Hussein should still be running the show for the Iraqi people? A man who, during 23 years of TERROR, was responsible for the deaths of thousands upon thousands of God's children? And yet, because we go in to clean up the mess, we're the bad guys? Sheesh...

Let it not be forgotten that the U.S. government spent American's money on those chemical weapons and supported Saddam in invading Iran and in slaughtering thousands of Iranians and his own people.

No. That would be a pretty oblique interpretation of God's words. My point (apparently poorly made) was that democracy is key to the spread of the gospel - and the rights of citizens of varying countries to accept God's word and freely obey it without reprisal from government. Thus, the spread of democracy opens the windows of heaven a bit wider, and enables us to carry the gospel a bit faster.

The deposition of Saddam may indeed lead to freedom in Iraq. However, this post-war occupation and our attempts at nation-building are totally contrary to liberty, democracy, and freedom. If it is an Iraq governed by her people we seek, we will not find it until we discontinue occupation.

As Americans, we need to tread carefully when it comes to attacking or invading another nation. What may have been a noble cause at the beginning can be forgotten or lost during a long war.

This statement applies well to the western occupation of Iraq.

Kurds and Shi'a do not have worry about massacres as they once did. Nor do they have to worry about being bombed with chemical weapons as before.

...Again, a horror made possible with U.S. tax dollars. After more than a generation of blood on her hands, I doubt an Interventionist America can gain any credible position with the Iraqis or the Iranians through any military means.

I certainly have every hope for a free world and as a latter-day saint, I believe that freedom will ultimately prevail. However, the spread of the gospel and the work of freedom will not come through the efforts of tyrants in their ambitions of evil, but in spite thereof.

-a-train

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I realize I am jumping into the discussion so bear with me please.

It appears that there are several sub-topics being kicked around.

The 9/11 attack, Entering the war in Iraq, Afganistan, Managing the War, Taxes, Cost of the War, Politics, etc.

My view is that we were attacked by militant terrorists on our soil on 9/11 and several innocent Amercians lost their lives as a result. Americicans woke up and immediatly unified behind our leaders including the President. Bottom Line we have not had another attack on our soil by these same terrorists since then.

War is terrible!!!!! Having said that, we have lost lives, but in all honesty, by comparision we have expierenced minimal loss of life compared to those we are defending and those we are fighting. This tells me that those actually fighting (our military soldiers etc.) and those military leaders are doing a pretty good job. However, the pandering elected politicians are another story.

Wars are costly? If I remember, Congress controls the purse strings for everything including War spending. Congress controls taxes? In fact Congress controls just about everything.

In my humble opinion, there certaintly is suffiecent blame to go around for not only our President, his advisors, but Congress as well for the pickle our country is in.

This country as we know is a great country founded by God for specific purposes. But for the last several years a few members of a minority view, have made in-roads to the point that we have removed God and prayer etc. from our schools, public bldg.s, etc.. Right has become wrong - Wrong has become Right. The silent majority have allowed this to happen by simply being passive. The record indicates that many of us have failed to even vote, and yet we send soldiers into harms way to give others that right in the names of democracy and liberty. Those of us who do vote, have done so perhaps in ignorace of the views and records of those who are running for office. Others of us, have voted but fail to get involved with the democratic process.

So now, we are expierencing the results. It boggles my mind that our Government has buggled one of the greatest opportunities to unify all Americans towards achieving greatness. Americians simply have lost faith and trust in most of all of our leaders, independent of their party affiliation. The same is true in many cases of our local and state leaders. It seems everyday we read of yet another leader who is found stealing cookies, or whose morals parellel that of a stray alley cat.

We have lost the respect of many of our allies worldwide and our enemies are multiplying. Hum! How can this be? We keep sending Billions of tax dollars to them in the form of aid. Perhaps thier might be one of lifes lessons being played out. Bottom Line - Can true friends, respect, honor be purchased? Can a good leaders mind be changed by offering up money. I am certain a bad leader mind can be changed I am just not sure that if a leader is truly a good leader, will they suddenly change their position for money. It seems to me that we ought to be taking especially good care of those nations who stand with us thru thick and thin. We should be withdrawing our aid, bases, etc. from those countries who we see as not supporting us. Meanwhile we really need to improve our image by returning to Gospel Principles and not by way of the Devils.

The latest financial debacle this country is in just didn't happen overnight. Again, there is plenty of blame to go around. Starting with those of us who are living over way over our means, deeply in debt, and paying for everything on credit and plastic. Bottom Line - Tools of the Devil = Material Things,Greed, and Corruption. So now, our leaders are digging a giant black hole to throw all of the countries financial woes into, making believe it never happened and back to business as usual. I wonder sometimes if I am the only one that has noticed our elected leaders (local, state, and National) go into office poor and after a bit, seem to move up in their tax bracket to the heading of "Rich and famous". It is almost a miracle. And then many of these same leaders leave their government jobs after a few years and another miracle happens, they become Lobbyists and become powerful and wealthier. Hmm! I am probably just suspicious.

If the B of M is a correct indication (and I think it is), things aren't going to get much better until we start humbling ourselves as a Nation, return to acknowledge Gods hand in our founding principles, and seeking his help in providing the God fearing honorable leaders we so badly need. Sure makes a good case for term limits doesn't.

But then what do I know at my tender age. :^). As for me and my house, we are doubling our efforts in the prayer and obediance catagories and are taking a greater interest in our leaders voting records, their lives, and their stands on issues of importance. We all so have been more involved in letting our elected officials know how we feel about certain subjects.

May God Bless The United States of America.

Edited by lilered
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On the other hand.. that attack on our soil was either a false flag attack or the equivalent of Appalachian State beating Michigan 2 years in a row. (An intelligence screw up of unequaled size)

I'm not against war.. I think this one has gotten a bit messy though. Whatever the reasons.. whether it's oil, setting up strategic bases, or honestly trying to better the QOL of another country..

I'm not the one calling the shots though. This 'war on terror' seems to breed more terrorists and that's my only complaint.

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How are you not seeing the fallacy of your argument? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. But here's what I see: "I have a list of negative things resulting from this war. Thus, the war is bad." You are seriously going to claim that there has been NOTHING BUT HORROR AND EVIL come to exist from what we've done?

You need to reign in your hyperbole and stop inferring things I never said. I never said anything about "evil." Nor did I ever say "nothing," as it is an absolute that I would never use.

However, when it comes to the effects of the war on the Iraqi people, who are, after all, why Bush insisted we were invading Iraq, yes, I am saying this war is horrible. It is a freaking nightmare for the Iraqis, and they hate it. Like I said, they call us "the invaders," and "the junta." Why do you think that is?

Is this true for every Iraqi? Parts of it are. For example, their terror of leaving their house for fear of being kidnapped, tortured and murdered, leaving his relatives full of grief and rage. This is possible as a direct result of our invasion. If you don't understand that, then need to do some research on your own.

Again, you focused on YOUR favorite points, to the exclusion of any counterpoints.

What counterpoints? You refuse to give me any!

And you think the Saints in Missouri were living the dream?

Wow. That is the "mother" of all red herrings.

Once more, you're painting an inaccurate portrait. Not to mention the fact that you're indirectly implying that life was good under Saddam Hussein.

How is my portrait inaccurate? Evidence please.

You also need to read my posts more carefully. I did not imply, nor did I say, life was good under Saddam. It is the Iraqis themselves who insist things "were better" under Saddam. There is a huge difference.

Belittling me doesn't help. If you can really claim that this war has done zero good, then I'll not continue this discussion.

As is your right.

In response to your demands for information, I'll return you to God's oracle:

"The terrible forces of evil must be confronted and held accountable for their actions…

"We are people of peace. We are followers of the Christ who was and is the Prince of Peace. But there are times when we must stand up for right and decency, for freedom and civilization..."

This is your evidence? You're refusal to provide me "positive results," evidence is because of the prophet's counsel. Okay, I think I understand now.

Do you seriously feel good about claiming that Saddam Hussein should still be running the show for the Iraqi people?

Again, I never claimed this. Iraqi citizens have said this. And there is a reason for that, because they despied Saddam. So, why do you think Iraqi citizens are saying they wish Saddam was back?

A man who, during 23 years of TERROR, was responsible for the deaths of thousands upon thousands of God's children?

Apparently you don't realize thousands upon thousands upon thousands of Iraqi citizens, including children, have been blown to pieces in this war. Right now the count is 92,000. These are only verified deaths, as it is impossible to find all of the bodies in the midst of mass graves, bodies that are unrecognizable, etc. So 92,000 is a reliable number, but in fact, there are many more deaths that are not on record.

In addition, there are tens of thousands of Iraqi citizens whose limbs have been blown off, who are paralyzed by gun fire/schrapel. Not to mention how traumatized they are because they have lived with bombs going off in their neighborhoods for almost five years now, resulting in severe traumatic-stress disorders that makes their lives hell.

These Iraqis live in minute to minute terror that their homes is going to be invaded either by Americans or terrorists. They are also terrified to leave their homes for necessities because of the huge risk of being kidnapped, tortured and murdered.

This is a huge problem in Iraq, because there are not adequate medical facilities to treat all of these people. And it is not because we have not tried to help build these facilities--it is because once they are built, terrorists destroy them. Terrorists who are not necessarily insurgents, but who have come to Iraq to fight the Americans.

(By the way, the "insurgents" are Iraqis. I don't condone their actions, but there is a reason they are fighting us. I won't explain it here because it is complicated, and stems from incidents at the beginning of the war.)

So, once again. Please provide me with the "positive reports." I've already told you I will gladly look at them, and I will. But if you cannot provide them, then you need to stop insisting they exist.

And yet, because we go in to clean up the mess, we're the bad guys? Sheesh...

Exactly what mess have we cleaned up? Again, evidence.

I'm starting to suspect you have no idea what the issues I've raised are about. For example: Do you even know who Moqttada Al-Sader is? Do you know what the "Mahdi Army" is? Do you have any idea how they affect Iraq?

RE: your claim I am saying things would be better with Saddam. You need to read my posts carefully. I never said things would be better with Saddam. Iraqis say things were better with Saddam. There is a difference.

Now think about that for a minute. The Iraqis despised Saddam, and for good reason. So why would they now say things were better under Saddam?

I get it that you're following the prophet's counsel, as is your right. But if you're going to enter a discussion where specifics are discussed, and claim I am wrong, the prophet's counsel is a thought-stopper.

Either address my points with hard evidence, or I agree, there is no need to continue our discussions.

Elphaba

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Tragic events of 911, how soon they forget, does remind me of the stories the Prophet Nephi wrote of the prideful and historically forgetting Nephites, which took only five-years before falling into another apostasy [3rd Nephi]. How soon we forget, as a nation, major humbling events of our past.

Islander : "Stupidity is more and more resembling a contagious airborne disease than a self inflicted condition. Oh, brother." I think so...including our national televised news media, which rather spend more time with lesser important events of the day - Brittney Spears. - than real news. :)

If this is the case..... how come we are not currently at war with Iran?

You do realize also that this rationale - a religious basis as it were - is the same rationale they use against us? So are you saying we should go out in a widespread, take no prisoners, religious war, and pretty much exterminate those Islamist nations? I doubt it.

Please clarify.

Edited by rastler00
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3 Nephi 11:29-30

For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.

Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.

Elphaba, I suppose it's my fault for letting this escalate. I have avoided arguing specific points, because this thread is about PRINCIPLES... or - it was - until your litany against operation Iraqi Freedom. And much as my pride wants to further this argument, I'm going to raise the white flag, instead. No doubt, you will interpret this as a concession of my ignorance. You're entitled to your opinion.

I would only like to share one other pair of scriptures with you that might be well worth considering.

Exodus 16:3

And the children of Israel said unto them, Would to God we had died by the hand of the Lord in the land of Egypt, when we sat by the flesh pots, and when we did eat brbead to the full...

1 Nephi 17:20

...yea, [Lehi] hath led us out of the land of Jerusalem, and we have wandered in the wilderness for these many years; and our women have toiled, being big with child; and they have borne children in the wilderness and suffered all things, save it were death; and it would have been better that they had died before they came out of Jerusalem than to have suffered these afflictions.

As arrogant as this will sound, the Iraqi people have NO IDEA what great things are in store for them once the waves calm. They're not stupid or simple - they just have ZERO comprehension of how things can (and hopefully WILL) be.

I don't want to fight. I also don't want to bicker over your list of arguments. I get all the lively political debate I need from outside sources. I come here to be uplifted and find people "of one mind and one heart". This discussion has fallen short of that goal.

My apologies for any offenses I have caused. I hope you will not think of me poorly as we cross paths in this uniquely blessed site.

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I think the whole gist of this thread confuses me. It talks about our current war - in a part of the board that is about Gospel Discussion" -as a generally supported war, or at least this war, as part of the Gospel, against the evils of terrorism, that is based on another religions.

If I were an Islamist, maybe a moderate one, who just wants to practice my religion, why wouldn't I see this as an attack on my religion?

As a layman, why wouldn't I see this as a "we are right because we have the right God", Christian version of Jihad.

Like I said.... I am confused. Could somebody clarify.

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Edit: Prodigal, I did not see your last post before I posted this.

How are you not seeing the fallacy of your argument? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. But here's what I see: "I have a list of negative things resulting from this war. Thus, the war is bad." You are seriously going to claim that there has been NOTHING BUT HORROR AND EVIL come to exist from what we've done?

You need to reign in your hyperbole and stop inferring things I never said. I never said anything about "evil."

As far as the horror and negative results of the war, as of today, yes, I am saying this war is full of horror, and negative results.

Are there positive things going on. That depends on the day. We help build facilities to better the Iraq's lives, only to have them blown to pieces by terrorists--terrorists that were not in Iraq prior to our invasion, and terrorists who are now in Iraq as a direct result of our invasion.

However, if you want a "positive," here is one: the Iraqi police forces are larger and better trained today than ever. Even a year ago, they were a motley lot who were not really interested in being part of a police force at all. They wanted the weapons.

Because these newer security forces are better trained, they were instrumental in breaking up the Mahdi Army, which had previously maintained a stronghold no one could penetrate.

However, the men in these forces take a huge risk, and are still being murdered for being a part of that force. But, many of them are there because they are sick of the bloodshed in their homes and neighborhoods, especially at the hands of Al Qaeda.

These Iraqi security forces now realize the Americans only make things worse when they come into Iraqi homes and neighborhoods, aiming and shooting to kill terrorists, with, unfortunately civillian casualties a common occurrencre. So, they are doing their best to rout Al Qaeda members out of their neighborhoods themselves.

Unfortunately sometimes the Americans insist on leading these military operations, but the Iraqis balk at this. And slowly, the Americans are starting to let them.

So, there's a positive. Now, do you think you could come up with something, since you keep claiming they exist. A "positive report" perhaps?

Again, you focused on YOUR favorite points, to the exclusion of any counterpoints.

What counterpoints? You refuse to give me any!

And you think the Saints in Missouri were living the dream?

I think that is the most obtuse red herrring I have ever seen.

Once more, you're painting an inaccurate portrait. Not to mention

the fact that you're indirectly implying that life was good under Saddam Hussein.

How is my portrait inaccurate? Evidence please.

You also need to read my posts more carefully. I did not imply, nor did I say, life was good under Saddam. What I said is that Iraqis I have talked to believe things "were better" under Saddam. There is a huge difference.

They are there. It is their country. You are not. So who I am going to believe?

Belittling me doesn't help. If you can really claim that this war has done zero good, then I'll not continue this discussion.

As is your right.

In response to your demands for information, I'll return you to God's oracle:

"The terrible forces of evil must be confronted and held accountable for their actions…

"We are people of peace. We are followers of the Christ who was and is the Prince of Peace. But there are times when we must stand up for right and decency, for freedom and civilization..."

This is your evidence?

You're refusal to provide me "positive results," evidence is because of the prophet's counsel. Okay, I think I understand now.

Do you seriously feel good about claiming that Saddam Hussein should still be running the show for the Iraqi people?

Again, I never claimed this. Iraqi citizens have said this. And there is a reason for that, because they despised Saddam. So, why do you think Iraqi citizens are saying they wish Saddam was back?

A man who, during 23 years of TERROR, was responsible for the deaths of thousands upon thousands of God's children?

No one disputes Saddam reigned by terror. But Saddam is dead now. We need to address the war, including the TERROR the Iraq's experience because of this war. We need to address the TERROR that is happening today.

Apparently you don't realize thousands upon thousands upon thousands of

Iraqi citizens, including children, have been blown apart in this war. Right now the verifiable count is 92,000. There are many more than that, but bodies are either impossible to identify because of violent deaths, or they are simply missing, never to be found again.

In addition, there are tens of thousands of Iraqi citizens whose legs and arms have been blown off, who are paralyzed by gun fire/shrapnel. Not to mention how traumatized they are because they have lived with bombs going off in their neighborhoods for almost five years now. Or their terror at leaving their home for food because of the huge risk of being

kidnapped, tortured and murdered.

This is a huge problem in Iraq, because there are not adequate medical facilities to treat all of these people. And it is not because we have not tried to help build these facilities--it is because once they are built, terrorists blow them up. Terrorists who are not Iraqis, but who have come to Iraq to fight the Americans.

So, once again. Please provide me with the "positive reports." I've already told you I will gladly look at them, and I will. But if you cannot provide them, then you need to stop insisting they exist.

And yet, because we go in to clean up the mess, we're the bad guys? Sheesh...

Exactly what mess have we cleaned up? Again, evidence.

I'm starting to suspect you have no idea what the issues I've raised are about. For example: Do you understand what the law of Sharia is? Do you know what an “honor killing” is? Do you know what a haditha is? If you did, you would realize how impossible it is for democracy to exist in Iraq.

RE: you're claim I am saying things would be better with Saddam. You need to read my posts carefully. I never said things would be better with Saddam. Iraqis say things were better with Saddam. There is a difference.

Now think about that for a minute. The Iraqis had despised Saddam for decades, and for good reason. So why would they now say things were better under Saddam?

Perhaps a visual would help you better understand how the Iraqi people feel. This cartoon reflects how the Iraqis feel about our occupation of their country.

Posted Image

I don't know what I said to upset you so - save it be to point out that you're ignoring the other side of the coin... unless, of course, you genuinely believe that no good has come of our efforts. If that IS what you believe, then I apologize for presuming you were a reasonably rational individual.

People resort to ad hominems when they have nothing of substance to say. Also, you need to look up the word "apology."

Either address my points with hard evidence, or I agree, there is no need to continue our discussions.

Elphaba

Edited by Elphaba
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"Freedom is always worth the price." I can't post the link to where that quote is from, because it a video of a young man who served in the military in Iraq addressing one of the candidates for President. I'm sure most of you have seen it.

War is never a good thing. Horrible, terrible, mistakes are made, lives lost, innocent lives lost. People are always going to have different opinions on this. Please be mindful that it's such a sensitive/passionate issue for both sides.

My best friend's husband is an officer who has done three tours. He has told some heart-wrenching stories. But one thing he always makes clear, he believes we need to be there. He knows what he is doing is important, not only to America, but to the Iraqi people. It's his opinion and stories that I trust.

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My sister has been over there and is going back in two months. She tells me that the majority of her counterparts (Navy) believe that what we are doing there is nothing more than enriching privileged western corporations. However, it must be understood that our military is made up of a cross section of Americans with the full spectrum of ideas about our occupation.

My sister serves at a hospital in Iraq. While she and her friends do provide honest and good service to both our military and the people of Iraq, the interventionist policy of this administration is still morally wrong, unconstitutional, and is motivated by corporate interests, not by any feeling of well-being for the Iraqi people.

I want freedom. I want honesty, justice, and peace. We can have that. The people of Iraq can have that. However, it will not come through this current interventionist policy. If we want freedom to stand and endure in Iraq, the people of Iraq must make that happen.

-a-train

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On the Air Force side of things, many are seeing this as a just war gone bad. They do not understand why we didn't just bomb Al Sadr City into oblivion and shut down the bad guys quickly. No one likes how Rumsfeld ran the war, but do think things have been better under Petraeus.

My son's been to the Middle East 3 times now as an Explosive Ordnance Disposal guy. They blow up or dismantle bombs and IEDs. Sadly, he's looking at getting out because it is just too tough on the family life anymore. So many in his field have left that they now have reenlistment bonuses that are far beyond what they were when I was in just a few years ago. Guys are leaving with 16 years in, because it isn't worth the stress anymore, so in his field there are few with rank anymore. SSgts are doing what used to be done by those with 2 or more ranks above them.

While I agree generally with the war, we're going to see that we've left our military exhausted, overworked, and its equipment worn out. I expect that if we continue this, we'll get to the point where we will have no choice but to stop being the world's police, because no one will sign up to do the work anymore. We will soon have to end this two front war, or watch our military disintegrate.

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I expect that if we continue this, we'll get to the point where we will have no choice but to stop being the world's police, because no one will sign up to do the work anymore. We will soon have to end this two front war, or watch our military disintegrate.

Not to mention the fact that we are bankrupt.

-a-train

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I agree with many of Ron Paul's ideas, but not all. I am a little concerned about precipitously making changes that could create major short term upheavals. This occurred in Russia and the former Soviet states when they suddenly found themselves with more freedom than they knew what to do with.

But I agree we need to begin withdrawing from being the world's police and getting our federal government trimmed down so that we are not spending trillions of dollars annually that we do not have to spend.

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On the other hand.. that attack on our soil was either a false flag attack or the equivalent of Appalachian State beating Michigan 2 years in a row. (An intelligence screw up of unequaled size)

This 'war on terror' seems to breed more terrorists and that's my only complaint.

I would like to understand your two statements a little more. Could you please elaborate.

On another note: I agree that Ron Paul seems to understand the Countries Financial Debacle better and what it will take to turn this thing around.

My own view is that until the American People get fed up and demand the changes necessary or oust their Congressional Representatives, demand elimination of Lobbyists, demand elimination of pork barrell spending, demand a balanced budget, etc. it ain't going to happen. We can not continue to be the World policeman and benefactor while we are bleeding red ink at home. We cannot continue to lose high paying jobs overseas and still give tremedous tax benefits to corporations who are outsourcing their work. We need to fix our poureous borders.

Bottom Line we all need to adopt a Conservative idealism and jetision a Liberal one. (As I step down from my soap box. Can you tell this is a hot subject for me? :^) )

Edited by lilered
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My own view is that until the American People get fed up and demand the changes necessary or oust their Congressional Representatives, demand elimination of Lobbyists, demand elimination of pork barrell spending, demand a balanced budget, etc. it ain't going to happen.

The American people did oust the Congressional representatives in 2006 when they elected a democratic congress. Astonishingly, they did nothing!

I don't think either of them are worth spit. They've all let this insanity continue for years.

Bottom Line we all need to adopt a Conservative idealism and jetision a Liberal one.

How in the world has this administration been a "liberal idealism?" It's neoconservative: you can't get any further away from "liberalism" than that.

Do I misunderstand what you're saying?

Elphaba

Edited by Elphaba
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