Swaying With The Tides of Popular Opinion Today

[a-train]

The American people did oust the Congressional representatives in 2006 when they elected a democratic congress. Astonishingly, they did nothing!

I don't think either of them are worth spit. They've all let this insanity continue for years.

How in the world has this administration been a "liberal idealism?" It's neoconservative: you can't get any further away from "liberalism" than that.

Do I misunderstand what you're saying?

Elphaba

Today we are witnessing the greatest change in power in the history of our country. The Congress is now powerless. They cannot stop the Federal Reserve from spending our money on whatever it wants to buy. If Congress had any stones at all, they would stop this unprecedented centralization of power.

-a-train

[Prodigal_Son]

Speaking of Congress, Federal Reserve, etc. Glenn Beck was warning folks yesterday that they needed to GET OUT of the stock market! That with the full scale bail out just proposed, we're about to face a full blown depression like the 1920's or worse.

Any thoughts? I haven't read the transcript from the show yet, but my dear mother was listening and immediately called me, admonishing me on what to do.

[Hemidakota]

As predicted - a financial collapses is coming. We cannot print money out of thin air.

[rameumptom]

The American people did oust the Congressional representatives in 2006 when they elected a democratic congress. Astonishingly, they did nothing!

I don't think either of them are worth spit. They've all let this insanity continue for years.

How in the world has this administration been a "liberal idealism?" It's neoconservative: you can't get any further away from "liberalism" than that.

Do I misunderstand what you're saying?

Elphaba

There are major differences between conservative and neo-conservative, as well. Neos think they can save the world with raw capitalism and intervention.

Liberals seek to use government to lift all boats. Conservatives seek to allow local government to manage the majority of governing, leaving the fed to handle only the things enumerated to Congress in the Constitution.

Most people tend to be a mixture of liberal and conservative.

What has collapsed our economy and moral integrity are those that have ignored economic and political reality, pushing issues further down the road. There are lots of guilty people on both sides of the aisle in Congress, who are no longer conservative or liberal, but drunken sailors spending money on anything and everything. This is exacerbated by a president who switched from conservatism to neo-conservatism after 9/11.

Our national debt is not $10 trillion. Given the empty coffers in the Social Security and Medicare accounts (and others), and an expensive war that is not included in that national debt figure, and now an economic crisis that also is not figured into it, we're probably closer to $25 to $30 trillion in debt. And sinking. When you include personal consumer and company debt, it jumps to $50 trillion, according to some experts.

There's probably only one way to pull out of this. We're going to have to pull out of the world, close down most services we now enjoy, and knuckle down for a decade. We saw this occur with Russia after the Soviet Union collapsed under economic mismanagement. It took a decade of heavy recessions/Depression to climb out of it to where they now are.

I hope you listened to Pres Hinckley over the last few years:

Nov 2002 Ensign:

Brethren, I wish to urge again the importance of self-reliance on the part of every individual Church member and family.

None of us knows when a catastrophe might strike. Sickness, injury, unemployment may affect any of us.

We have a great welfare program with facilities for such things as grain storage in various areas. It is important that we do this. But the best place to have some food set aside is within our homes, together with a little money in savings. The best welfare program is our own welfare program. Five or six cans of wheat in the home are better than a bushel in the welfare granary.

I do not predict any impending disaster. I hope that there will not be one. But prudence should govern our lives. Everyone who owns a home recognizes the need for fire insurance. We hope and pray that there will never be a fire. Nevertheless, we pay for insurance to cover such a catastrophe, should it occur.

We ought to do the same with reference to family welfare.

We can begin ever so modestly. We can begin with a one week’s food supply and gradually build it to a month, and then to three months. I am speaking now of food to cover basic needs. As all of you recognize, this counsel is not new. But I fear that so many feel that a long-term food supply is so far beyond their reach that they make no effort at all.

Begin in a small way, my brethren, and gradually build toward a reasonable objective. Save a little money regularly, and you will be surprised how it accumulates.

Get out of debt and rid yourself of the terrible bondage that debt brings.

We hear much about second mortgages. Now I am told there are third mortgages.

Discipline yourselves in matters of spending, in matters of borrowing, in practices that lead to bankruptcy and the agony that comes therewith.

Nov 2001 Ensign:

I do not know what the future holds. I do not wish to sound negative, but I wish to remind you of the warnings of scripture and the teachings of the prophets which we have had constantly before us.

I cannot forget the great lesson of Pharaoh’s dream of the fat and lean kine and of the full and withered stalks of corn.

I cannot dismiss from my mind the grim warnings of the Lord as set forth in the 24th chapter of Matthew.

I am familiar, as are you, with the declarations of modern revelation that the time will come when the earth will be cleansed and there will be indescribable distress, with weeping and mourning and lamentation (see D&C 112:24).

Now, I do not wish to be an alarmist. I do not wish to be a prophet of doom. I am optimistic. I do not believe the time is here when an all-consuming calamity will overtake us. I earnestly pray that it may not. There is so much of the Lord’s work yet to be done. We, and our children after us, must do it....

Nov 2005 Ensign:

Our people for three-quarters of a century have been counseled and encouraged to make such preparation as will assure survival should a calamity come.

We can set aside some water, basic food, medicine, and clothing to keep us warm. We ought to have a little money laid aside in case of a rainy day.

Now what I have said should not occasion a run on the grocery store or anything of that kind. I am saying nothing that has not been said for a very long time.

Let us never lose sight of the dream of Pharaoh concerning the fat cattle and the lean, the full ears of corn, and the blasted ears; the meaning of which was interpreted by Joseph to indicate years of plenty and years of scarcity (see Gen. 41:1–36).

And finally Nov 1998 Ensign:

Now, brethren, I should like to talk to the older men, hoping that there will be some lesson for the younger men as well.

I wish to speak to you about temporal matters.

As a backdrop for what I wish to say, I read to you a few verses from the 41st chapter of Genesis.

Pharaoh, the ruler of Egypt, dreamed dreams which greatly troubled him. The wise men of his court could not give an interpretation. Joseph was then brought before him: “Pharaoh said unto Joseph, In my dream, behold, I stood upon the bank of the river:

“And, behold, there came up out of the river seven kine, fatfleshed and well favoured; and they fed in a meadow:

“And, behold, seven other kine came up after them, poor and very ill favoured and leanfleshed. …

“And the lean and the ill favoured kine did eat up the first seven fat kine: …

“And I saw in my dream … seven ears came up in one stalk, full and good:

“And, behold, seven ears, withered, thin, and blasted with the east wind, sprung up after them:

“And the thin ears devoured the seven good ears: …

“And Joseph said unto Pharaoh, … God hath shewed Pharaoh what he is about to do.

“The seven good kine are seven years; and the seven good ears are seven years: the dream is one. …

“… What God is about to do he sheweth unto Pharaoh.

“Behold, there come seven years of great plenty throughout all the land of Egypt:

“And there shall arise after them seven years of famine;

“… And God will shortly bring it to pass” (Gen. 41:17–20, 22–26, 28–30, 32).

Now, brethren, I want to make it very clear that I am not prophesying, that I am not predicting years of famine in the future. But I am suggesting that the time has come to get our houses in order.

So many of our people are living on the very edge of their incomes. In fact, some are living on borrowings.

We have witnessed in recent weeks wide and fearsome swings in the markets of the world. The economy is a fragile thing. A stumble in the economy in Jakarta or Moscow can immediately affect the entire world. It can eventually reach down to each of us as individuals. There is a portent of stormy weather ahead to which we had better give heed.

I hope with all my heart that we shall never slip into a depression. I am a child of the Great Depression of the thirties. I finished the university in 1932, when unemployment in this area exceeded 33 percent.

My father was then president of the largest stake in the Church in this valley. It was before our present welfare program was established. He walked the floor worrying about his people. He and his associates established a great wood-chopping project designed to keep the home furnaces and stoves going and the people warm in the winter. They had no money with which to buy coal. Men who had been affluent were among those who chopped wood.

I repeat, I hope we will never again see such a depression. But I am troubled by the huge consumer installment debt which hangs over the people of the nation, including our own people. In March 1997 that debt totaled $1.2 trillion, which represented a 7 percent increase over the previous year.

In December of 1997, 55 to 60 million households in the United States carried credit card balances. These balances averaged more than $7,000 and cost $1,000 per year in interest and fees. Consumer debt as a percentage of disposable income rose from 16.3 percent in 1993 to 19.3 percent in 1996.

Everyone knows that every dollar borrowed carries with it the penalty of paying interest. When money cannot be repaid, then bankruptcy follows. There were 1,350,118 bankruptcies in the United States last year. This represented a 50 percent increase from 1992. In the second quarter of this year, nearly 362,000 persons filed for bankruptcy, a record number for a three-month period.

We are beguiled by seductive advertising. Television carries the enticing invitation to borrow up to 125 percent of the value of one’s home. But no mention is made of interest.

President J. Reuben Clark Jr., in the April 1938 general conference, said from this pulpit: “Once in debt, interest is your companion every minute of the day and night; you cannot shun it or slip away from it; you cannot dismiss it; it yields neither to entreaties, demands, or orders; and whenever you get in its way or cross its course or fail to meet its demands, it crushes you” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1938, 103).

I recognize that it may be necessary to borrow to get a home, of course. But let us buy a home that we can afford and thus ease the payments which will constantly hang over our heads without mercy or respite for as long as 30 years.

No one knows when emergencies will strike. I am somewhat familiar with the case of a man who was highly successful in his profession. He lived in comfort. He built a large home. Then one day he was suddenly involved in a serious accident. Instantly, without warning, he almost lost his life. He was left a cripple. Destroyed was his earning power. He faced huge medical bills. He had other payments to make. He was helpless before his creditors. One moment he was rich, the next he was broke.

Since the beginnings of the Church, the Lord has spoken on this matter of debt. To Martin Harris through revelation He said: “Pay the debt thou hast contracted with the printer. Release thyself from bondage” (D&C 19:35).

President Heber J. Grant spoke repeatedly on this matter from this pulpit. He said: “If there is any one thing that will bring peace and contentment into the human heart, and into the family, it is to live within our means. And if there is any one thing that is grinding and discouraging and disheartening, it is to have debts and obligations that one cannot meet” (Gospel Standards, comp. G. Homer Durham [1941], 111).

We are carrying a message of self-reliance throughout the Church. Self-reliance cannot obtain when there is serious debt hanging over a household. One has neither independence nor freedom from bondage when he is obligated to others.

In managing the affairs of the Church, we have tried to set an example. We have, as a matter of policy, stringently followed the practice of setting aside each year a percentage of the income of the Church against a possible day of need.

I am grateful to be able to say that the Church in all its operations, in all its undertakings, in all of its departments, is able to function without borrowed money. If we cannot get along, we will curtail our programs. We will shrink expenditures to fit the income. We will not borrow.

One of the happiest days in the life of President Joseph F. Smith was the day the Church paid off its long-standing indebtedness.

What a wonderful feeling it is to be free of debt, to have a little money against a day of emergency put away where it can be retrieved when necessary.

President Faust would not tell you this himself. Perhaps I can tell it, and he can take it out on me afterward. He had a mortgage on his home drawing 4 percent interest. Many people would have told him he was foolish to pay off that mortgage when it carried so low a rate of interest. But the first opportunity he had to acquire some means, he and his wife determined they would pay off their mortgage. He has been free of debt since that day. That’s why he wears a smile on his face, and that’s why he whistles while he works.

I urge you, brethren, to look to the condition of your finances. I urge you to be modest in your expenditures; discipline yourselves in your purchases to avoid debt to the extent possible. Pay off debt as quickly as you can, and free yourselves from bondage.

This is a part of the temporal gospel in which we believe. May the Lord bless you, my beloved brethren, to set your houses in order. If you have paid your debts, if you have a reserve, even though it be small, then should storms howl about your head, you will have shelter for your wives and children and peace in your hearts. That’s all I have to say about it, but I wish to say it with all the emphasis of which I am capable.

I leave with you my testimony of the divinity of this work and my love for each of you, in the name of the Redeemer, the Lord Jesus Christ, amen

After this last talk during Priesthood Meeting, a friend of mine turned to me and said that it was the first time he'd had an economics lesson in General Conference. A decade later, are we ready, or did we squander our time so that the struggling economy of today will harm us and our children?

[a-train]

There are major differences between conservative and neo-conservative, as well. Neos think they can save the world with raw capitalism and intervention.

Liberals seek to use government to lift all boats. Conservatives seek to allow local government to manage the majority of governing, leaving the fed to handle only the things enumerated to Congress in the Constitution.

Great post, but I want to make something clear. The Neocons want state capitalism, not raw capitalism. What is state capitalism? An economic system that is primarily capitalistic but there is some degree of government ownership of the means of production. What production exactly do they wish to control? Money and credit.

"Permit me to issue and control the money of a nation, and I care not who makes its laws". -Mayer Amschel Rothschild

For years the few Americans who have warned of the dangers of the Federal Reserve and the power sought by those who control it have been called foil-hat wearers. They have been scorned and derided. Now, the Federal Reserve is not only debauching our currency through subtle inflation, they are using that process to take over the entire financial system of this country.

Mark these words: they will claim that the coming depression demonstrates the need for even more centralization of power.

-a-train

[rameumptom]

Probably so, at least on Wall Street. However, I also believe that a fully free society can only work with a fully moral people. We are no longer a fully moral people. In fact, we barely rate in the morality field at all. Our people need and deserve a strong government to direct them, as this crash of the investment markets and banking has proven we are not moral enough to manage such things ourselves. Sadly, those in government who regulate it may not do a great job, either. Chances are their choices will stifle a lot of growth, so as to ensure no major risks occur again (or until next time).

[Moksha]

The Neocons want state capitalism, not raw capitalism. What is state capitalism? An economic system that is primarily capitalistic but there is some degree of government ownership of the means of production. What production exactly do they wish to control? Money and credit.

-a-train

I am uncertain about any government ownership (some folks who talk about this appear to have dreaded moon rays leaking through their foil helmets - not you of course), but it does seem like capitalism will forever get it self into a Lehman Brothers-Enron-AIG state of affairs, due to unchecked and inherent greed.

Capitalism needs strong and unrelenting regulation to keep its habitual collapse from occurring. It also needs a nation not continually engaged in a war that drives its debt through the roof.

As far as government ownership goes, the only thing the government could run better would be the public utilities.

[lilered]

Elphaba

The American people did oust the Congressional representatives in 2006 when they elected a democratic congress. Astonishingly, they did nothing! Is that really true? They certaintly changed the majority from Republican to Democratic however the most powerful in both Houses of Congress most of the good old boy network was left intact.

I don't think either of them are worth spit. They've all let this insanity continue for years.

(Absoluetly agree!

How in the world has this administration been a "liberal idealism?" It's neoconservative: you can't get any further away from "liberalism" than that.

In my view Congress for several administrations have been spending money like a drunken sailor. In effect buying votes by giving the store away. This practice has been exaserbated by the influence of Lobbyists for special interest groups. Several attempts to stop both Lobbyists and install line item veto have been fought tooth and toe nail by liberals from both parties and special interest groups. Thus, the mountain of debt have continued to grow until present. Additionally, our President has inacted several tax cuts while at the same time funding the war on terrorism. Bottom Line we have and are continuing to spend more money that we are taking into the treasury. The answer for most is simply continue to print more paper money with nothing to back it. This policy continues to reduce the value of the dollar, thus affecting the United States and the the price of precious metals, oil, etc. If what I am saying is true, then how can that be conservatism?

Do I misunderstand what you're saying? I don't know did you?

Elphaba

[rameumptom]

Many wish to have a minimal government for our nation. The reality is, I don't think our nation can manage a minimal government anymore. Just look what greed has done in unregulated capitalist markets here! S&Ls, Enron, World Com, Merrill Lynch, Fannie Mae, etc. It hasn't changed at all since the junk bonds crashed two decades ago.

Government interventions are going to be needed on occasion. I don't mind that. The problem comes when we want government intervening on things where the feds don't belong. Little Cuban boys in Florida, whose mothers die enroute to the USA, should be handled by the state of Florida, not Janet Reno. Health Care should be handled by the states, not the feds. The financial markets, by Constitutional law, should be overseen and handled by Congress.

But how do we stop Congress from spending and wasting money worse than all the investment groups put together?????

[a-train]

Unregulated capitalist markets?!?!? Yeah right! S&Ls, Enron, World Com, Merrill Lynch, Fannie and Freddie, these are all the result of too much regulation not too little. Had these failures not been propped up with tax payer money through government schemes, they would have been left to fail long ago.

That is the problem with state capitalism and economic regulation: monopolies are built, prices are fixed, and production is regulated to the best interests of the well connected. Back in the good ol' days of true free markets, when a business did something or someone wrong, they lost business. The market does the best regulating.

I love how these idiots blame wall street for the housing bubble. It was the Federal Reserve. Who sets the interest rates? Where does all the money come from for the malinvestment? THE FED!

I hear them on the radio saying de-regulation is to blame. This is all a scam! They want more power. They want more control. And sheesh are they taking it. The FED creates the booms and the busts through the control of money and credit. It is really that simple. So simple that the masses refuse to believe it.

The financial markets are to be overseen by the Congress according to the Constitution? What?

-a-train

[a-train]

Capitalism needs strong and unrelenting regulation to keep its habitual collapse from occurring.

That is what they tell us in school so we will be good little tax-paying mindless robots. Free markets existed for centuries without the boom and bust cycle. The collapses are the effect of inflation and deflation controlled by the elite central bank. What regulates the free market? The government? Who regulates the government?

Ram asked a great question:

But how do we stop Congress from spending and wasting money worse than all the investment groups put together?????

A group of men whose meetings are secret (not even Congress is allowed to oversee them) decides to lower interest rates and add new money to the economy which stimulates a boom. Then, they raise interest rates and take money out of the economy which causes the bust.

This did not happen before we had a central bank in control of a paper currency. Thomas Jefferson openly opposed (look here) the idea and the states were strictly forbidden the use of a paper currency by the Constitution (section 10, article 1). Congress alone was given power to coin money and no allowance was made for any paper currency (Section 8). Why was that in the Constitution?

The Articles of Confederation actually had a clause in it allowing Congress to issue bills of credit (paper money). However, when the same clause was presented at the Constitutional Convention, it was met with great opposition. Delegate Luther Martin recorded the following concerning the matter: "But, sir, a majority of the Convention, being wise beyond every event, and being willing to risk any political evil rather than admit the idea of a paper emission in any possible case, refused to trust this authority to a government to which they were lavishing the most unlimited powers of taxation, and to the mercy of which they were willing blindly to trust the liberty and property of the citizens of every state in the Union; and they erased that clause from the system."

Our forefathers knew well the dangers of a fiat money system, especially one controlled by banker elitists. That is what we have and that is our problem.

How do we prevent all this? Make only gold and silver coinage tender in payment of debts. The power to simply create money out of thin air is simply not a power anyone should have. Congress cannot spend money that does not exist and if they can't create it out of thin air, they can't spend it. That was our control over the purse strings. Those controls were thrown out in 1913. The FED is unconstitutional and is the cause of our financial woes.

-a-train

Edited September 24, 2008 by a-train

[sweetangel1987]

I am so grateful for a Heavenly Father who watches and cares for us. I also know that we are so lucky to have the knowledge of the gospel that we have, that so many others dont. We are truly blessed and thats why we are able to stand as a light to the world, to stand up for the things which we know to be true.

[lilered]

I am so grateful for a Heavenly Father who watches and cares for us. I also know that we are so lucky to have the knowledge of the gospel that we have, that so many others dont. We are truly blessed and thats why we are able to stand as a light to the world, to stand up for the things which we know to be true.

While what you point out is true, Heavenly Father I 'm afraid is going to help us much with this financial debacle. Our Supreme Court and leaders have made it very clear that God influence is not required in our Government nor Wall Street any longer and so in their infinite wisdom, they know best. Besides why would his spirit want to be in a Den of Thieves and Moral inept scoundrels who are only worried about their own welfare and not that of the nations.

We all ought to vote in Nov. with a "No Confidence Vote" for all 500 + members of both houses and our Presidential candidates. IMHO

[Prodigal_Son]

We all ought to vote in Nov. with a "No Confidence Vote" for all 500 + members of both houses and our Presidential candidates.

While this might be a bit extreme, it is ironic that we, as a nation, complain so much - when we put these clowns into power.

[Still_Small_Voice]

While what you point out is true, Heavenly Father I 'm afraid is [not] going to help us much with this financial debacle. Our Supreme Court and leaders have made it very clear that God's influence is not required in our Government nor Wall Street any longer and so in their infinite wisdom, they know best.

I added the "not" into your words because I think that is what you meant.

I fear what you have said is true. The world has grown quite wicked and the United States is not exempt. We are facing the consequences of greed and will likely have to pay dearly. This 700 billion dollar "bail out" they are pondering is a band aid over a gushing wound.

[rastler00]

While what you point out is true, Heavenly Father I 'm afraid is going to help us much with this financial debacle. Our Supreme Court and leaders have made it very clear that God influence is not required in our Government nor Wall Street any longer and so in their infinite wisdom, they know best. Besides why would his spirit want to be in a Den of Thieves and Moral inept scoundrels who are only worried about their own welfare and not that of the nations.

We all ought to vote in Nov. with a "No Confidence Vote" for all 500 + members of both houses and our Presidential candidates. IMHO

You may want to be careful about "God's" involvement in Government. Because there are an awful lot of people who also want "God" in government who also think your religion is a cult. You might not fare so well if they get their version of God inserted.

Just an observation. :)