The Grossest Form of Church Criticism


Connie
 Share

Recommended Posts

Hemi, one of your points was:

I think that many times we cannot choose what doubts come to us. We certainly can choose how to deal with the doubt once it surfaces, but doubts come unbidden for most of us. Same with other weaknesess. Paul is a great example not only of the human condition, but of the change that can come as a result of our hope in Christ as we struggle.

HiJolly

I kinda agree with you HiJolly. But I also feel that doubt feeds on doubt. And doubt comes from lack of faith. I believe that the best form of offense to doubt is faith and learning and continually becoming like the Savior. If we have a doubt arise, we must jump on it and learn and find out the truth and seek the Lord in the right places and for the answer from the right places. We should not go further into our doubt to look for the answers. Doubt comes from Satan. Doubt is different to questions I believe.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I find the need to constantly remind members (and myself) that the 10 virgins and the goats/sheep were ALL church members!

On the same line of thinking, who has ever thought about the people in the great and spacious building. If they could see the tree and knew about the tree, would that tell you that they know of the tree, therefore know of the covenant?? I believe that most people in the building are either church members, or used to be (ie like Laman and Lemuel). I believe those who don't know about the church or the covenant are not in the building, but in the mists somewhere, or down the the filthy waters. Just a thought. And if this is the case, which I believe it is, I am constantly assessing myself to make sure that I am not in the building mocking the Lord's annointed, that I am on the path and in the right place.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you Snow,

I find the tone of that list concerning. It seems as if we're esteeming people who do not act in accordance with our value system (mormon, or not) as an enemy who deserves our condescension and derision, as well as our judgement. Ouch!

I say ouch, because for me, while I have had many witnesses from the Spirit about many doctrines in the gospel, remaining an active, "upright" member of the church is an ongoing battle for me. While I believe there is purpose in this for my life's journey, it only makes it harder to read of the attitudes shown on this thread.

.

Dove, I think that perceptions of what is said on these threads can be misguided. There are alot of us who are just very passionate about what is being said. I for one looking at this thread am not interested one iota about what any other member or non-member is doing or how or what type of person they are. I see what Pres Benson said is for me to assess myself. Full stop. I think that is how others see it too and there is alot of thinking out loud that happens in places like this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Realy Brother01? Are they contradictions or just misinterpritations? I would love to see some of those BOM/Bible comparisons!

While making the Bible accounts I realized some things that were surprising - to me anyway. First and foremost is that of the actual teachings of Jesus, that they didn't match what I'd been told they were. Little things like how many commandments did He give? Then was the realization of how many directions He gave by way of precept, and especially noted was what He said about what He was teaching. I think that was the most enlightening to me.

Jesus never said you have to have the right interpretation of what He said, but that not everyone who says they believe actually believes and does what He said to do/believe. Jesus said the Father said that those who keep His words will have both the Father and the Son with them. Jesus said we know Him by doing what He said. Jesus said works matter.

So looking at the two controversies of LDS and Evangelical, the study gave me new insight. On one hand are those who say that if you keep commandments that you have fallen from grace...which is not true if you base your faith on what Jesus taught from God, His Father. On the other hand it seems LDS believe they have to 'follow the prophet' to know what God wants of them in their lives. I'm sure prophets have their place, but all of us are - according to Jesus - brethren, and He alone is to be our Teacher. Not that I'm against teachers or preachers or prophets, but I believe if they have something to say that is needful they need to first base their foundation of what they say right onto the truthfulness of Jesus Christ as the Faithful Witness of God.

Those not of God cannot hear and do what He said...they may fake it, they may fool some, but they mostly fool themselves by lack of study of what Jesus taught. There have been generations that couldn't know the Bible during the Dark Ages, but we have no excuse today - not in the USA anyway. God will hold each of us accountable.

Are the teachings of the LDS Prophets totally compatible with the teachings of Jesus Christ as found in the Bible? "Teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you" "I have given them Your words" Jesus taught about keeping those words He said before returning to the Father.

Care to do the BOM accounting to compare with the Bible? I'd be glad to consider posting it on my web site. I believe the matter is actually necessary to record and examine if they truely are His words and if not, then even more so to show the differences. Either way it is a win win for those who seek to do what Jesus said!

One Disciple to Another

John 15:9,10; "As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you, abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in in His love."

Luke 21:33;

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away."

I've heard plenty of preachers say we have to love like Jesus did, but none who said this cannot be done apart from keeping His commandments as He kept the Fathers' commandments. Sure, grace, mercy and honesty are important, but most important is what God has said.... Jesus also equated doing what He said, and that in so doing this would set one free - that we don't experience His freedom and peace apart from doing what He commanded. Ever hear an evangelical preach that? Ever hear a fast and testimony talk about that? I haven't - at least not yet.

Edited by brother01
added verse and comment
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On the same line of thinking, who has ever thought about the people in the great and spacious building. If they could see the tree and knew about the tree, would that tell you that they know of the tree, therefore know of the covenant?? I believe that most people in the building are either church members, or used to be (ie like Laman and Lemuel). I believe those who don't know about the church or the covenant are not in the building, but in the mists somewhere, or down the the filthy waters. Just a thought. And if this is the case, which I believe it is, I am constantly assessing myself to make sure that I am not in the building mocking the Lord's annointed, that I am on the path and in the right place.

"Great and spacious building"? Where is that found? I had a profound dream about that some years back. People in the building were in many rooms. Some had godly joy, some had nothing going on but a party with their own little group and some had left the building and wandered off to the darkness outside and were lost in the dark swamp mud that exuded their blood when it had consumed them... Pretty creepy dream.... I'd forgotten it till just now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Great and spacious building"? Where is that found? I had a profound dream about that some years back. People in the building were in many rooms. Some had godly joy, some had nothing going on but a party with their own little group and some had left the building and wandered off to the darkness outside and were lost in the dark swamp mud that exuded their blood when it had consumed them... Pretty creepy dream.... I'd forgotten it till just now.

It's in the Book of Mormon, in the 8th chapter of 1st Nephi. Here's a link.

There's MUCH more to it than just this one chapter. In fact, it has been said that "Lehi's Vision" (as we title it) is THE THEME of the Book of Mormon.

Click here to read it: 1 Nephi 8

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dove, I think that perceptions of what is said on these threads can be misguided. There are alot of us who are just very passionate about what is being said. I for one looking at this thread am not interested one iota about what any other member or non-member is doing or how or what type of person they are. I see what Pres Benson said is for me to assess myself. Full stop. I think that is how others see it too and there is alot of thinking out loud that happens in places like this.

Thank you for your feedback Nappaljarri, I appreciate your response. I feel you wrote it with kindness and respect. :)

It seems you feel that my perceptions may be misguided. One thing that bothers me is the list posted that began most, if not all, of the statements with "they claim" and "they believe," speaking of an unknown third party who wasn't here and couldn't agree/deny, defend or explain their position. All those statements, to me, were critical in nature. Another thread that gave me concern was the one mentioning the parable of the ten virgins. It gave reference to those "decent members" who "gave excuses" for being "fashionably late" by disagreeing with doctrines of the church. That, with the response of being on "mormon standard time" took it from not only a tone of derision, to me, but to making fun. I believe that those people who are actually taking steps to openly disagree with doctrine, especially those members of long-standing, are not "making excuses" in their mind, but are consciously and thoughtfully coming out in disagreement, for whatever reason, for good or bad.

I acknowledge that you may feel this is overly sensitive on my part. As I mentioned, part of my struggle is remaining active in the gospel. My issue isn't the doctrine so much as it is the attitude of other members. I perceive a general lack of tolerance, compassion, emphathy, open-mindedness and love. While you say that you are not interested one iota about what any other member or non-member is doing or how or what type of person they are, I am. What other people do and how they feel does affect me. I do care about what other people feel and wether or not the choices they're making are bringing them what they are looking for or would be applicable to me in the same circumstance. I do feel a reaction when it seems I am being judged, put down, or just ignored, by others.

My perspective is that none of us are an island, we are all in this mortal experience together. Like it or not, all of our actions, thoughts, and attitudes act like waves across the ocean of humanity. We are in an universal climate. While we may not have control over how a person will react to what we send out, I strongly believe that everyone has a reaction to the "waves," even if only a minimal one. I just hope that here, on an LDS forum, what is sent out are the attributes of charity~

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If it was that blatant, then I'm surprised they didn't leave. I suppose every major religion has that segment that finds the sentiment nice, the moral teachings worthwhile, and just wants to chalk everything up to nicely inspired literature and healthy spiritual tradition.

Yes...I think I'd rather be an atheist/agnostic than a monotheist who believes God really doesn't care, but wants to keep up the tradition because it's tradition. :cool:

Some don't leave because they seek to change things from within. Others don't leave, because it gives them the authoritative insider power when they write their book (one of these attacks books actually states it is written by a LDS insider!).

Some just want to have their cake and eat it too, I guess.

Every organization has the right to establish its principles and rules. Anyone within the organization has a right to seek change within the accepted practices of that organization. But if the mail clerk attempted to overthrow the CEO of an organization, don't you think he'd have the right to fire him? So it is in any Church. The Roman Catholic Church or Lutheran Church have the right to determine their doctrine and beliefs, and can excommunicate those who vocally fight against core teachings.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rameumptom, I fully respect a church that is able to exercise church discipline in an orderly, effective way--especially when the process allows room for the possibility of future reconciliation and redemption. So...no arguments from me. Your process definitely seems more godly than those that incorporate shunning into their excommunication processes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you for your feedback Nappaljarri, I appreciate your response. I feel you wrote it with kindness and respect. :)

It seems you feel that my perceptions may be misguided. One thing that bothers me is the list posted that began most, if not all, of the statements with "they claim" and "they believe," speaking of an unknown third party who wasn't here and couldn't agree/deny, defend or explain their position. All those statements, to me, were critical in nature. Another thread that gave me concern was the one mentioning the parable of the ten virgins. It gave reference to those "decent members" who "gave excuses" for being "fashionably late" by disagreeing with doctrines of the church. That, with the response of being on "mormon standard time" took it from not only a tone of derision, to me, but to making fun. I believe that those people who are actually taking steps to openly disagree with doctrine, especially those members of long-standing, are not "making excuses" in their mind, but are consciously and thoughtfully coming out in disagreement, for whatever reason, for good or bad.

I acknowledge that you may feel this is overly sensitive on my part. As I mentioned, part of my struggle is remaining active in the gospel. My issue isn't the doctrine so much as it is the attitude of other members. I perceive a general lack of tolerance, compassion, emphathy, open-mindedness and love. While you say that you are not interested one iota about what any other member or non-member is doing or how or what type of person they are, I am. What other people do and how they feel does affect me. I do care about what other people feel and wether or not the choices they're making are bringing them what they are looking for or would be applicable to me in the same circumstance. I do feel a reaction when it seems I am being judged, put down, or just ignored, by others.

My perspective is that none of us are an island, we are all in this mortal experience together. Like it or not, all of our actions, thoughts, and attitudes act like waves across the ocean of humanity. We are in an universal climate. While we may not have control over how a person will react to what we send out, I strongly believe that everyone has a reaction to the "waves," even if only a minimal one. I just hope that here, on an LDS forum, what is sent out are the attributes of charity~

Thank-you for your thoughts Dove. I didn't mean to sound like I thought you were being oversensitive. I just didn't want you to feel pain or hurt from other's comments. I don't wish people to be feeling pain and hurt from the actions of others, but alas.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Similar dream, but different. The tree was inside, as the river. Outside was darkness and those who would depart from the tree and those who fellowshipped in its fruit.

Very interesting Brother1. What a cool dream!! Are you a member? I am assuming not since you didn't know the reference of the dream that I was talking about??? Just wondering?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am impressed that when Jesus met with his apostles and talked about one that was not in harmony with the truths of his gospel that John did not turn to James and say, "I bet he is talking about Judas - he has been acting strange lately."

I have yet to talk to anyone that thinks they have strange ideas - we all think that we are the one that is right and everybody else is just a little off in their thinking. But the example of the apostles is that when Jesus warned of someone not being right with their covenants -- that the apostles asked, "L-rd is it I?" Perhaps this is the best indication of who it isn't.

The Traveler

Thank you for illuminating this aspect of that scripture. I had often wondered why the apostles were asking the Savior if it was they of whom He spoke. I never took it further to see that they were doing what we should all do...look to ourselves first, before trying to cast blame on our neighbors.

When we hear our leaders speak (Church, Stake, or Ward) do we hear their words and think of "others" who need to change or repent, or do we look within ourselves to see if we are the ones who stand in need of change?

I guarantee that I have enough faults and weaknesses within myself to keep me busy for a LONG time, so that hopefully I am distracted enough with removing my own beam from my eye that I am not trying to find the mote in the eyes of others.

At least, that is the ideal I aspire to. ^_^

I should make a badge for myself that states "Work in Progress" or "Under Construction" so that others can clearly see that I am fully aware of my own failings, but that I am working on them!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dove,

please remain active in the gospel. The BOM and and most of Josephs greatest revelations came befor April 6, 1830. We are not called to be of the same opinion, we are of the same Faith.

I hope the saints can follow the Apostles advice to "Speak evil of no man", and that all our communication can be filled with virtue and grace toward one another.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share