General information on a planetary crisis


bytor2112
 Share

Recommended Posts

And maybe then they would understand that there may be consequences to the action and might consider being married.......IMO

Unfortunately kids are not adults, and that is a heck of a lesson for making a mistake by being a kid. Not a mistake I would require a kid to pay for, for the rest of their life, just because they had the bad luck to be born a female, instead of a male. Unless.... because it is their body.... it is what they insist upon.

But that is just me, I am male, and will probably not become pregnant anytime soon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 97
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

This below site is pretty comprehensive, using a number of polls, over a number of years. It covers the issue in a lot of different ways. FWIW, I would have no problem with abortion being illegal for anything over viability outside the womb (about 21-22 weeks).

Abortion

Half is a bit of a stretch.......I don't think 50% of all Americans support abortion on demand.

FWIW, do you really think if you had the pusblic support you think you have that abortion would still be legal?

Most people are not asking for abortion to be illegal. Roe V Wade was judicial fiat. I think if you examine the statistics you might conclude that Rowe V. Wade has provided some unexpected results. Interestingly, Jane Rowe is now an outspoken advocate for life.

I think you run in different culture and group of people than I do (actually I am sure of that) I can tell you that most of my peers, my family, and people I associate with, over the past 30 years, have been almost exclusively pro-choice. Does this mean everybody is because that is my experience? Of course not. But I have to ask.... because you live in a different sort of world than I do, where most are pro-life, that therefore there is actually a large majority... because that is all you really see?

You might ask yourself the same question. I don't typically ask whether or not someone believes abortion is right or wrong, to assume that I live in some different sort of world than you is ridiculous......... I live in the same world as you do and the same country and I never said it was a large majority. I think the argument is phoney and isn't intellectually honest. Just read the statistics......a pretty grim picture if you ask me. People aren't so very different....we all have fairly common goals. The source of my standards and moral compass may be from a different place than yours...but the standards are probably not all that different. I am guessing here, but you probably think the abortion statistics are outrageous as well and believe that people shouldn't be so irresponsible...??

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And maybe then they would understand that there may be consequences to the action and might consider being married.......IMO

Unfortunately kids are not adults, and that is a heck of a lesson for making a mistake by being a kid. Not a mistake I would require a kid to pay for, for the rest of their life, just because they had the bad luck to be born a female, instead of a male. Unless.... because it is their body.... it is what they insist upon.

But that is just me, I am male, and will probably not become pregnant anytime soon.

I am not advocating that kids should marry....merely punctuationg Otterpops comment that she wished kids were out of high school before sex. Out of school married and willing to be parents if necessary. Regarding minors....everyone is different. If my make-believe 16 year old daughter got pregnant...she would have the child and give it up for adoption. Incidentally my Mom was 17.......I am 43. I don't think she regrets having me......and I sure am glad of that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I apologize for not meeting your standards. I will try harder in the future.

I checked out your profile and see that you gave no answer regarding religion. Just a guess but your probably not LDS? Atheist or agnostic maybe? I know many agnostics, atheists and flaming liberals who are wonderfully moral people with high standards......I am sure you are the same. Welcome to the site:D

I am mostly put off by the shocking number of abortions.....it really is inexcusable. It is a symtom of a disposable society...... a selfish society.....and yes, an immoral society. I am not saying if someone has an abortion they automatically have no values or morals. I think and hope that the decision to have an abortion is painful and difficult. But again the statistic don't suggest that is the case......

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am not advocating that kids should marry....merely punctuationg Otterpops comment that she wished kids were out of high school before sex. Out of school married and willing to be parents if necessary. Regarding minors....everyone is different. If my make-believe 16 year old daughter got pregnant...she would have the child and give it up for adoption. Incidentally my Mom was 17.......I am 43. I don't think she regrets having me......and I sure am glad of that.

On the otherhand I have a kid who is extremely talented. Can punch her own ticket athletically and academically, and if she decided she didn't want to carry a child, and mess all of that up, at the age of 15-17, and since it is her body and not mine, I can see that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I checked out your profile and see that you gave no answer regarding religion. Just a guess but your probably not LDS? Atheist or agnostic maybe? I know many agnostics, atheists and flaming liberals who are wonderfully moral people with high standards......I am sure you are the same. Welcome to the site:D

I am mostly put off by the shocking number of abortions.....it really is inexcusable. It is a symtom of a disposable society...... a selfish society.....and yes, an immoral society. I am not saying if someone has an abortion they automatically have no values or morals. I think and hope that the decision to have an abortion is painful and difficult. But again the statistic don't suggest that is the case......

That wasn't supposed to be addressed to you. Was it? If so I apologize... it was meant for Kona.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On the otherhand I have a kid who is extremely talented. Can punch her own ticket athletically and academically, and if she decided she didn't want to carry a child, and mess all of that up, at the age of 15-17, and since it is her body and not mine, I can see that.

If you were a woman and could have punched your own ticket athletically and academically, but got pregnant. Would you choose abortion....knowing the child you abort is the daughter that you now have and know and love?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Abortion

Half is a bit of a stretch.......I don't think 50% of all Americans support abortion on demand.

Most people are not asking for abortion to be illegal. Roe V Wade was judicial fiat. I think if you examine the statistics you might conclude that Rowe V. Wade has provided some unexpected results. Interestingly, Jane Rowe is now an outspoken advocate for life.

You might ask yourself the same question. I don't typically ask whether or not someone believes abortion is right or wrong, to assume that I live in some different sort of world than you is ridiculous......... I live in the same world as you do and the same country and I never said it was a large majority. I think the argument is phoney and isn't intellectually honest. Just read the statistics......a pretty grim picture if you ask me. People aren't so very different....we all have fairly common goals. The source of my standards and moral compass may be from a different place than yours...but the standards are probably not all that different. I am guessing here, but you probably think the abortion statistics are outrageous as well and believe that people shouldn't be so irresponsible...??

Uh, I am not sure how to reply to all of this. I gave you the various polled opinions, about the various views on abortion, over a considerable amount of time. If you don't like them, than you don't. If you don't like my position, then you don't either. I am just showing what is "out there", and telling you what my views, and those of my peers are, is all. If that makes me bad in your view, I am okay with that. These differences are part of the fabric of society.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bytor,

I have thought about this issue very deeply, and I don't shrink from the implications of what I believe or the policies that I think should be in force. This is not a pretty subject, but I'm willing to engage with all of it and account for my positions.

I do not ignore the fact that women have sexual choices and sexual responsibilities, and that behavior causes pregnancy. The simple fact is that when you believe a man's choice alone caused a pregnancy (rape), you somehow manage to make it OK to kill a ZEF. But when a woman participated in that choice, that ZEF assumes some protection that it didn't previously have. Why? Is it a person? If so, why does the manner of conception affect its rights? If not, why do you think the government should be the arbiter of this most intimate and personal situation?

You can cry "judicial fiat" all you want in relation to Roe v. Wade, but you can't escape the fact that it is the Supreme Court's role to interpret the Constitution -- and that is what they did. It is not the most cogent or consistent ruling they ever made, but it is the law. Abortion policy has, disgustingly, become little more than a lever that Republicans use to manipulate one-issue voters. They haven't even tried to seriously challenge Roe v. Wade in the past several years.

You say that parents should be told of a minor's pregnancy regardless of how "rotten" they are. I'm guessing you've never known a mother who has thrown her child against a wall so many times and with such force that the child has permanent brain damage. I'm guessing that you've never discussed with a young woman her shame of having had an ongoing sexual relationship with her father because he would kick her out of the house if she didn't and she had nowhere else to go.

I don't like that abortion is used so often as a form of birth control, but I think keeping abortion legal and fully available in early pregnancy is a far better policy than criminalizing abortion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Uh, I am not sure how to reply to all of this. I gave you the various polled opinions, about the various views on abortion, over a considerable amount of time. If you don't like them, than you don't. If you don't like my position, then you don't either. I am just showing what is "out there", and telling you what my views, and those of my peers are, is all. If that makes me bad in your view, I am okay with that. These differences are part of the fabric of society.

You misread me......I am not saying you are bad....just expressing that people aren't so very different. I am not doubting the polls....I just don't think most americans approve of abortion on demand as reflected in the statistics that I posted on the OP page. No judgement here.... just discussing:cool:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am guessing here, but you probably think the abortion statistics are outrageous as well and believe that people shouldn't be so irresponsible...??

This we agree on. I am not pro abortion.... I am pro choice. I am also pro abstinence, with education about safe sex. Once one is an adult it is.... safe sex ,within a monogomous relationship.

I am very adament about this. Especially since I have a teenaged girl. But I am also realistic. Protection is available. And if that unportected mistake is made, the family doctor has the permission (on record) to give a morning after pill without my "on-site" permission.

I know kids... they won't say, "dad, I did the deed unportected and we need to get that morning after pill coctail." They will hope for that monthly visit instead. That is not functional.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Otterpop,

You seem like a passionate advocate and I am sure any abused children are very fortunate to have you on their side. I don't seek to make abortion a criminal offense..I would like to see it used as a last resort. Incidentally, both parties use the issue as a rallying cry.......But again the situations you described, while unfortunate still only accounts for 7% of all abortions. Thank goodness for people like you to help with these sad situations.

As a Latter Day Saint I adhere to the guidance provided by my faith. I believe that decisions have eternal consequences and that we are eternal beings and as such we have to look at decisions through an eternal prism and recognize that our existence here is brief and that no matter how difficult it is....we should always choose what is right and moral. Abortion is a moral issue....as is pre-marital sex as you know. My decisions in life tend to revolve around my belief in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. His gospel, his teachings and his laws...shape and form my my passions. It's a tough issue and one I am certain that makes our Heavenly Father weep.......

Thanks for your passionate and well thought out comments!:)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am not pro abortion.... I am pro choice.

Hello rastler,

My 2 cented very humble opinion, with great respect.

You CAN NOT be as claimed above.

No matter how you try and justify it, IF you are pro choice then you are INDEED PRO ABORTION.

God bless,

Carl

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bytor,

I have thought about this issue very deeply, and I don't shrink from the implications of what I believe or the policies that I think should be in force. This is not a pretty subject, but I'm willing to engage with all of it and account for my positions.

I do not ignore the fact that women have sexual choices and sexual responsibilities, and that behavior causes pregnancy. The simple fact is that when you believe a man's choice alone caused a pregnancy (rape), you somehow manage to make it OK to kill a ZEF. But when a woman participated in that choice, that ZEF assumes some protection that it didn't previously have. Why? Is it a person? If so, why does the manner of conception affect its rights? If not, why do you think the government should be the arbiter of this most intimate and personal situation?

You can cry "judicial fiat" all you want in relation to Roe v. Wade, but you can't escape the fact that it is the Supreme Court's role to interpret the Constitution -- and that is what they did. It is not the most cogent or consistent ruling they ever made, but it is the law. Abortion policy has, disgustingly, become little more than a lever that Republicans use to manipulate one-issue voters. They haven't even tried to seriously challenge Roe v. Wade in the past several years.

You say that parents should be told of a minor's pregnancy regardless of how "rotten" they are. I'm guessing you've never known a mother who has thrown her child against a wall so many times and with such force that the child has permanent brain damage. I'm guessing that you've never discussed with a young woman her shame of having had an ongoing sexual relationship with her father because he would kick her out of the house if she didn't and she had nowhere else to go.

I don't like that abortion is used so often as a form of birth control, but I think keeping abortion legal and fully available in early pregnancy is a far better policy than criminalizing abortion.

Sorry Otter, I am in agreement with Bytor all the way. NO one can justify the abortion of a baby (except for rape, incest and health of mother), just because the next day the mother deemed it Unwanted..She should have thought about that before the passion took over. Not so good for the baby..When the baby was the consequence for her choice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello rastler,

My 2 cented very humble opinion, with great respect.

You CAN NOT be as claimed above.

No matter how you try and justify it, IF you are pro choice then you are INDEED PRO ABORTION.

God bless,

Carl

No problem, I can make a pretty good case nobody is pro-life, just anti-abortion. It is just the nature of this contentious issue. It's been this way for 35 years and isn't likely to change. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry Otter, I am in agreement with Bytor all the way. NO one can justify the abortion of a baby (except for rape, incest and health of mother), just because the next day the mother deemed it Unwanted..She should have thought about that before the passion took over. Not so good for the baby..When the baby was the consequence for her choice.

Fair enough. We disagree. Do you want to see the law changed to reflect your view?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bytor is awesome. Even during heated discussions with personal attacks flying...Bytor always attempts to bring the conversation back to where it should be. I've observed this and totally appreciate the efforts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have very strong emotional feelings about the whole issue. My beautiful daughter (you can see her picture in my gallery) is adopted. Her birth mother wanted to get an abortion but waited too late in the pregnancy to do so. Had she made that decision earlier, my daughter would not exist today. I can not imagine my daughter not having the opportunity or the choice to enjoy life. Nor I having the opportunity to be her mother.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pam, I do believe she would be given another body to inherit but possibly to another family. We did manage to loose a wonderful spirit that was lost during my wife's pregancy. I told her that she will have that opporunity to raise that child in the next life. :)

Now, I do see your great love and that bond between mother and child. Yet, it reminds me of these words: "There is nothing stronger than a love between the parent and the child." You are indeed bless....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share