General information on a planetary crisis

[pam]

Hemi, I too believe those that lose children to miscarriages and stillborn births will have the opportunity to raise those children in the next life. Thank you for your words. I am blessed that I DID get the opportunity to raise and love a wonderful spirit such as my daughter.

[richlittell]

It does not matter the reason used to justify the abortion. All you are doing is relabeling the act of murder with a clever reason.

God lets stuff like Rape happen. Why I have no clue. He lets bad things happen to all of us so that's no excuse.

Let's take your argument to it's logical conclusion, that God, no matter what, sees all abortion as murder, no matter for rape, health of mother or what not, so in essence it is his desire that all unborn children make it to birth.

I think it is a merciful God that allows that some people end up, by no fault of their own, in a terrible situation. No one, especially we men, can imagine the mental confusion and anguish that a woman goes through under such circumstances as rape or making a no-win choice for health reasons. Many women of rape, even those who don't get pregnant, consider, or successfully commit, suicide. How can we, especially as men, judge them under these unusual and rare circumstances?

God knows these rare circumstances are difficult and I think he loves the woman as much as the unborn child, which he may not have even given a spirit yet. And if that child doesn't have a spirit yet, I can assure you God love's his living daughter much more than an un-spirited embryo/fetus. We don't know at what point the spirit enters the child. We also don't know, God being the all-seer, that in these circumstances, God may choose in fact to never spirit the unborn child, seeing beforehand that the daughter he loves will make her choice to abort.

If a man broke into your house and you feared for your wife and children's lives and you killed the intruder in a struggle, is this your fault? Are you a murderer? No, you are a defender and will be understood as acting in self-defense. Even our courts don't call the killing of another always "murder," there are degrees of murder, manslaughter, and as mentioned above self-defense. I wouldn't want to stand before God and point at a woman who had been raped, who knows in what horrendous manner, and say, "That woman is a murderer! She has no excuses." I think the trap door to hell might just flap open underneath the accuser's feet.

How can we fault women who have been raped or whose bodies have serious health issues. Maybe God would hope they are all strong enough to give birth, even at the peril of their own life, but I think in his mercy, he loves his daughters and doesn't expect them to be able to make such god-like choices when under that kind of physical/mental duress.

These circumstances are so rare, it is a much bigger problem that women choose abortion as a tool of convenience. Let's get THAT down to only a small percentage before getting all up in arms over rape and health issues.

This changes everything for me. I will no longer investigate a church that thinks abortion is OK...

Our church does NOT in the least think abortion is okay.

Edited September 18, 2008 by richlittell

[Hemidakota]

Let us summarize from the official policy of the church:

Required reading - D&C 59:6 and Ensign [March 1991, page 78]

The church opposes elective abortion for personal or social conveniences. Members MUST NOT SUBMIT to, perform, pay for, arrange for, or encourage an abortion.

Now, there are a few exception but even these exceptions do not justify abortion automatically. Abortion is a most serious matter and should be considered only after the persons responsible have consulted with their Bishops, Branch Presidents and receive divine confirmation through prayer.

Exception but still requires approval:

1] Pregnancy resulted from RAPE or INCEST.

2] A competent physician determines that the life or HEALTH OF THE MOTHER of the mother is in serious jeopardy.

3] A competent physician determines that the fetus has severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth.

Now, if a church member who submits to, perform, pay for, arrange for, or encourage an abortion may be subject to Church discipline.

Edited September 18, 2008 by Hemidakota

[bmy-]

Let us summarize from the official policy of the church:

Required reading - D&C 59:6 and Ensign [March 1991, page 78]

The church opposes elective abortion for personal or social conveniences. Members MUST NOT SUBMIT to, perform, pay for, arrange for, or encourage an abortion.

Now, there are a few exception but even these exceptions do not justify abortion automatically. Abortion is a most serious matter and should be considered only after the persons responsible have consulted with their Bishops, Branch Presidents and receive divine confirmation through prayer.

Exception but still requires approval:

1] Pregnancy resulted from RAPE or INCEST.

2] A competent physician determines that the life or HEALTH OF THE MOTHER of the mother is in serious jeopardy.

3] A competent physician determines that the fetus has severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth.

Now, if a church member who submits to, perform, pay for, arrange for, or encourage an abortion may be subjected to Church discipline.

I know i'm being nitpicky.. but it's what I do. I can't imagine the church disciplining anyone for paying or arranging for an abortion [for the right reasons]. That's why it says 'may be subjected' and not 'will be subjected'.

A 'professional' abortion is far better than the coat-hanger style for all parties involved.

[Hemidakota]

Don't be to picky. :)

[jazzy225]

Fair enough. We disagree. Do you want to see the law changed to reflect your view?

Honestly, it starts in the home. If there is no parental involvement, or the parents are leaving a child at daycare for twelve hours a day. How can parents bond with their children, if the parents aren't there. Someone else it raising their children. No material thing can justify having someone else raise your children.

My wife and I have had one income for over 18 years, for the sole purpose of having one parent at home all the time. My daughter has thanked us for that and they really need your attention more in their teens than any other time. IMHO

We always know where are kids are at, we know what they are doing. We always have dinner together. We enjoy doing things as a family nightly and weekly. We also spend time with them individually as dates (one on one time).

My daughter, since she was 13 has vowed to wait for her wedding night. She is now 18 and is quite adamant about waiting and focusing entirely on her education. I totally trust her..She knows the consequences for her actions.

As I said, it starts in the home, they are influenced by what they see, hear and how others act. Being lead by example..

[OtterPop]

Honestly, it starts in the home. If there is no parental involvement, or the parents are leaving a child at daycare for twelve hours a day. How can parents bond with their children, if the parents aren't there. Someone else it raising their children. No material thing can justify having someone else raise your children.

My wife and I have had one income for over 18 years, for the sole purpose of having one parent at home all the time. My daughter has thanked us for that and they really need your attention more in their teens than any other time. IMHO

We always know where are kids are at, we know what they are doing. We always have dinner together. We enjoy doing things as a family nightly and weekly. We also spend time with them individually as dates (one on one time).

My daughter, since she was 13 has vowed to wait for her wedding night. She is now 18 and is quite adamant about waiting and focusing entirely on her education. I totally trust her..She knows the consequences for her actions.

As I said, it starts in the home, they are influenced by what they see, hear and how others act. Being lead by example..

jazzy,

I agree that it starts in the home. You and your wife sound like devoted, involved parents. I also agree that it is best for kids to be raised by their own parents and for daycare to be minimized. But for some people, that truly is not possible. There are plenty of adults who had lousy parenting themselves who are learning as they go with their own kids. Mandating that women must carry all unwanted pregnancies to term except in a tiny percentage of cases is likely to result in more cases where you have a parent or parents who are unprepared to guide and teach their children.

My understanding is that kids who have two involved parents who actually behave like parents (as opposed to friends) are much more likely to stay in school and delay sexual activity. That makes sense, because they have a sense that they are valuable and loved.

It also makes sense that you see the abortion issue primarily in terms of your own family. I see it primarily in terms of woman and girls who don't have the advantages that your daughter does.

[Guest ceeboo]

jazzy,

Mandating that women must carry all unwanted pregnancies to term except in a tiny percentage of cases is likely to result in more cases where you have a parent or parents who are unprepared to guide and teach their children..

Hello OtterPop,

Considering your post, Maybe we should get a " secret police " squad together and go and find all those millions and millions of unprepared parent or parents ( by the way, I was one of those many years ago ) who are " not ready " to guide and teach their children and

save those poor kids by ending their lives.

SORRY, I COULD NOT READ YOUR POST AND NOT REPLY.

SORRY AGAIN

God bless,

Carl

[OtterPop]

Hello OtterPop,

Considering your post, Maybe we should get a " secret police " squad together and go and find all those millions and millions of unprepared parent or parents ( by the way, I was one of those many years ago ) who are " not ready " to guide and teach their children and

save those poor kids by ending their lives.

SORRY, I COULD NOT READ YOUR POST AND NOT REPLY.

SORRY AGAIN

God bless,

Carl

It sounds to me like you're the one who's invested in insinuating government into people's most intimate lives. That's not me.

This discussion has been very civil. It would be nice if we kept it that way. Please don't mispresent what I say, no mater how much you disagree with it.

You seem to be someone who does not draw any distinction between a fertilized egg and a living, breathing, independent human being.

And by the way, when I say "not ready," I don't mean too young or too inexperienced. I mean people who don't have a clue what parenting is. I mean people who beat the hell out of their kids because they were taught that's what good parenting is. I mean people who are so insecure that they are afraid to set any limits for their child because their child won't like them anymore.

You can make light all you want. I think this is a serious issue. I am interested in reducing the number of abortions, and I do and will continue to put my money where my mouth is. This is a systemic problem, one that isn't going to be addressed easily.

Edited September 19, 2008 by OtterPop

[Guest ceeboo]

This discussion has been very civil. It would be nice if we kept it that way. Please don't mispresent what I say, no mater how much you disagree with it.

You can make light all you want. I think this is a serious issue. I am interested in reducing the number of abortions, and I do and will continue to put my money where my mouth is. This is a systemic problem, one that isn't going to be addressed easily.

Hi again OtterPop,

I tried ( probably failed, sorry ) to be as civil as I could. I do not think I misrepresented what you offered at all. It seemed clear, IMHO, that you think if parent or parents are not of a certain level, privledge, or there actions are not suitable ( I have no idea who would be the judge of that ) then they should not be bringing creations to this world. Tough luck for the kid I guess.

I am making light of this ????:confused:, NO, not at all, it is IMHO, one of the biggest shames and evils we have in the good old USofA.

God bless,

Carl

[OtterPop]

Hi again OtterPop,

It seemed clear, IMHO, that you think if parent or parents are not of a certain level, privledge, or there actions are not suitable ( I have no idea who would be the judge of that ) then they should not be bringing creations to this world. Tough luck for the kid I guess.

Again, you are the one who wants to control reproductive choices, not me. I am not in favor of a policy that dictates who can and can't have kids.

When I asked what Jazzy would do in regard to policy, he responded with a post about how he parents and presented his confidence that his daughter will be very responsible with her sexuality. I think he's right about his daughter, but I don't think this has much to do with the larger issue.

I am liberal -- not sort of, not kind of, not "social liberal and fiscal conservative." I don't think that it's up to me or the state to decide who should or shouldn't have kids. I do think that kids should be removed from abusive situations -- not by secret police, but by the best and most open methods we can devise, which are always imperfect.

Do you really not see any difference between a zygote and a child? Do you think birth control pills should be taken off the market? Are you willing to engage with the full implications of the public policies you favor? I am. And I can even do it without jumping to the most radical conclusions possible about other posters.

[Guest ceeboo]

I am liberal -- not sort of, not kind of, not "social liberal and fiscal conservative."

.

Hi again OtterPop,

A short response as to not continue our obvious disagreement.

First, in an effort to lighten things up a bit, YOUR A LIBERAL, I would have never guessed:D ( sorry, I hope you took that with the humor intended )

I will agree to disagree with you and I thank you for your responses to me.

God bless,

Carl ( a former zygote ):)

[OtterPop]

Hey, I had to make my liberal status clear -- I'm in favor of the whole thing: more social programs, more income redistribution, a public safety net. Didn't want you to think I was one of those fake liberals who don't want to put up when they won't shut up.

[kona0197]

Let us summarize from the official policy of the church:

Required reading - D&C 59:6 and Ensign [March 1991, page 78]

The church opposes elective abortion for personal or social conveniences. Members MUST NOT SUBMIT to, perform, pay for, arrange for, or encourage an abortion.

Now, there are a few exception but even these exceptions do not justify abortion automatically. Abortion is a most serious matter and should be considered only after the persons responsible have consulted with their Bishops, Branch Presidents and receive divine confirmation through prayer.

Exception but still requires approval:

1] Pregnancy resulted from RAPE or INCEST.

2] A competent physician determines that the life or HEALTH OF THE MOTHER of the mother is in serious jeopardy.

3] A competent physician determines that the fetus has severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth.

Now, if a church member who submits to, perform, pay for, arrange for, or encourage an abortion may be subject to Ch

Unacceptable. ALL Abortion - no matter the cause or reason - is murder.

Suffice it to say my decision stands. I will NOT be a member of a church that condones such evil behavior.

I will be attending some other church. My answer to the question "Is this the true Church?" has been answered.

[rastler00]

Unacceptable. ALL Abortion - no matter the cause or reason - is murder.

Suffice it to say my decision stands. I will NOT be a member of a church that condones such evil behavior.

I will be attending some other church. My answer to the question "Is this the true Church?" has been answered.

So basically for you, the only issue that matter when it comes to religion, is abortion.

Interesting.

Somehow I get the feeling you had your mind made up a long time ago and you were just looking for an excuse to trash this particular religion. But that is just me.

[kona0197]

It goes far beyond abortion. Don't jump to conclusions. I'm not trying to trash anything here.

[CatchTheRedeye]

This whole abortion debate is bull. "I want to have my freedom of choice whether it means murder of a new life force growing inside of me or not, boo hoo." I think that when we die that is the end of it, but life goes on. Murder is murder so what gives a person the right to take away that life force's opportunity to live too whether the mother's mistake messes up her life or not? They deserve the chance to live. The only time I can see doing abortions is if the fetus was determined to be severely deformed and wouldn't survive birth anyway or if it's birth was definitely going to risk the life of the mother.

Just a weird agnostic's view on abortion... ummm... I mean murder. See, not all liberals are Pro Choice.

[bmy-]

Unacceptable. ALL Abortion - no matter the cause or reason - is murder.

Suffice it to say my decision stands. I will NOT be a member of a church that condones such evil behavior.

I will be attending some other church. My answer to the question "Is this the true Church?" has been answered.

I'm sorry to hear that. There's a few good questions to ask..

What's more evil -- depriving a future child a life? Or depriving current children of a parent? Which is more impactful now?

Let's say for instance.. Sue is a mother of 4 [ages 6,8, and 10 year old twins]. Her husband passed away 3 months ago.. everyone is devastated. It seems like a cruel joke but it turns out something isn't right with the pregnancy and the mother probably won't survive labor.

Do you 'kill' the one to help the many? Or do you cripple the many to save the one? Consider long-term effects on the children. Since it's an obviously black or white issue for you.. I sincerely hope you or your loved ones never have to hurt your children like that.

[richlittell]

I think it is presumptuous of anyone of the male gender to pass judgement on a woman who has experienced the horrible and horrendous crime of rape and any decisions she might make as a result. How ridiculous. I am thankful that Heavenly Father is merciful.

And equally as ridiculous is passing judgement on one who has to make a life or death decision -- their own-- in such rare circumstances. I am thankful that Heavenly Father is merciful and that Christ took upon him our pains that we all may be redeemed.

Judge not lest you be judged accordingly.

I still like my example of the man standing before the Lord at Judgement Day pointing the finger at a rape victim and saying "She is a murderer, She has no excuses." Can anyone else see how ridiculous a scene that would be?

And again, the church does NOT condone abortion. The policy is clear.

[pam]

Unacceptable. ALL Abortion - no matter the cause or reason - is murder.

Suffice it to say my decision stands. I will NOT be a member of a church that condones such evil behavior.

I will be attending some other church. My answer to the question "Is this the true Church?" has been answered.

Kona let me tell you a true story. It's about my brother and sister in law. They had been married a few years. Tried and tried to have a baby with no success. Finally a miracle happened. She was pregnant. Pregnancy progressed but alas..they discovered that she is one that when pregnant develops blood clots. Large amounts of them. At this point some so large that in order to treat them would require large amounts of blood thinners. Enough blood thinners that it would have seriously hurt the baby. On the other hand if they didn't treat them, one could break loose, travel to her heart and kill her. Either way..one or both of them could die.

So then a decision has to be made. A heart rendering decision. Do they treat the blood clots and risk the life of the baby or not treat them and risk both lives? After much counseling with their Bishop and Stake President, the decision was made to save the life of my sister in law. So unfortunately an abortion had to be done. It was an emotional time for all of us as we knew how important this pregnancy was.

Time went on and she went on to have two more children. But with these pregnancies they knew what to expect and two beautiful, healthy children were born.

Was it murder? I don't think so. To me it would have been murder to NOT have treated. Two lives could have possibly been lost.

I believe my brother and sister in law will have the opportunity to raise this child in the next life.

To say that all abortions are murder just doesn't make sense to me. I will NEVER believe that in their case it was.

Until you have experienced this kind of heart breaking experience, please don't judge.

Edited September 19, 2008 by pam

[rastler00]

This whole abortion debate is bull. "I want to have my freedom of choice whether it means murder of a new life force growing inside of me or not, boo hoo." I think that when we die that is the end of it, but life goes on. Murder is murder so what gives a person the right to take away that life force's opportunity to live too whether the mother's mistake messes up her life or not? They deserve the chance to live. The only time I can see doing abortions is if the fetus was determined to be severely deformed and wouldn't survive birth anyway or if it's birth was definitely going to risk the life of the mother.

Just a weird agnostic's view on abortion... ummm... I mean murder. See, not all liberals are Pro Choice.

Sure are an awful lot of murderers running free these days.

[Hemidakota]

Unacceptable. ALL Abortion - no matter the cause or reason - is murder.

Suffice it to say my decision stands. I will NOT be a member of a church that condones such evil behavior.

I will be attending some other church. My answer to the question "Is this the true Church?" has been answered.

Good morning Kona, my brother...

I do see you are easily swayed by words vice seeking the Spirit in this matter. Even have doubts with a few church polices? Yes! In my case, I would seek out that same Spirit for clarity. Some answers do come quickly while others are slowed for reason. I noticed that the Spirit needs to convey it in a way that is easy for me to understand. One case is that I desire to know what Enoch knew. Asking for something like this was an extensive ponderous life desire. Line upon line, precept upon precept, the Spirit shared what is easy for me to digest. Kona, eventually, the Spirit help me to understand those truths.

As a convert to the church, I can tell you without doubt that there is no other church upon this planet, or doctrine, principles, truths, which will answer every question your heart desired.

If you feel it is necessary to seek other churches, perhaps, it is good for you to do so. Then come back to the same Spirit and ask Him, which of all of these churches belongs to the Savior? I did the same prior in joining this church, which span many years.

[kona0197]

Nevermind...