Judas

[Guest The_Doctor]

Note: This has nothing to do with the Gospel of Judas.

For a long time I haven't fully been able to understand why most Christians seem to believe that Judas was the most evil person alive and is in Hell.

The reason I can't fully understand this is:

1) None of the Apostles except Peter "really" knew who Jesus was.

2) Jesus knew and still accepted him as an Apostle.

3) Judas did kind of repent. (Though probably not correctly.)

Also if Judas did wine up in Hell wouldn't that alter the whole Atonement thing? Since then it wasn't just the sacrifice of Christ's life, but also of Judas's soul.

Edited January 31, 2009 by The_Doctor

[Prodigal_Son]

I believe B.R. McConkie warned against passing judgment on Judas in "The Mortal Messiah" trilogy. That we can't possibly begin to know what the full spectrum of the circumstances were.

[bytor2112]

I believe B.R. McConkie warned against passing judgment on Judas in "The Mortal Messiah" trilogy. That we can't possibly begin to know what the full spectrum of the circumstances were.

I think Brother McConkie passed judgement on King David in the Premortal Messiah.....

[Justice]

The scriptures pass judgment on Cain.

But, I'm confident that Christ would apply His Atonement on him if He could, as well as Judas. That doesn't offend me. What it does is teach me that I must forgive all men because I don't know that they might repent in their hearts, and because I don't know what choices I would make if I were required to walk in their shoes.

[Heavenguard]

If Judas repented, I'm absolutely certain that his betrayal would have been forgiven.

However, in his grief, he instead committed suicide, which is considered another grave sin.

It's between God and Judas, but I'd be expecting at this point that Judas would be in hell. I feel like he kinda got shafted a little, having followed Jesus for three years, and his betrayal being a part God's greater plan to bring salvation to humanity ... but ... there you go.

[Guest The_Doctor]

If Judas repented, I'm absolutely certain that his betrayal would have been forgiven.

However, in his grief, he instead committed suicide, which is considered another grave sin.

It's between God and Judas, but I'd be expecting at this point that Judas would be in hell. I feel like he kinda got shafted a little, having followed Jesus for three years, and his betrayal being a part God's greater plan to bring salvation to humanity ... but ... there you go.

See! That would change the Atonement since then we're forgiven through the sacrifice of Christ's life and Judas's soul.

[hordak]

If Judas repented, I'm absolutely certain that his betrayal would have been forgiven.

However, in his grief, he instead committed suicide, which is considered another grave sin.

It's between God and Judas, but I'd be expecting at this point that Judas would be in hell. I feel like he kinda got shafted a little, having followed Jesus for three years, and his betrayal being a part God's greater plan to bring salvation to humanity ... but ... there you go.

What would Judas have to repent of? If Jesus dying on the cross was part of the plan then Judas just did what he was foreordained to do.

[tubaloth]

What would Judas have to repent of? If Jesus dying on the cross was part of the plan then Judas just did what he was foreordained to do.

His choice (agency) lead to some ones death. The Atonement would have happen with out Judas.

The Logic doesn't hold true. I could go kill somebody because I knew that at some point they would die. I would just be doing what was already going to happen.

Thats not how it works. Judas made a choice to go against Christ. We all make similar choices (not to the same degree). What side of the line are we on! We all have to be judged accordingly.

[BenRaines]

Good thing judgment is left up to Him who paid the price.

Ben Raines

[richlittell]

See! That would change the Atonement since then we're forgiven through the sacrifice of Christ's life and Judas's soul.

I don't get the connection. Judas' soul was not a righteous sacrifice, neither a necessary part of the plan of salvation. In his free agency, he opted for suicide, he didn't have to do that, he could have come before the court of the apostles and asked for forgiveness and began a process of repentance; even David did so much as that and continued to sing his praises to God until he died.

God uses evil men in his plan everyday, that is why the righteous suffer, that the wicked might experience a true and everlasting judgement.

Whether Judas is destined for outer darkness or some lesser glory, we do not know. Neither can we assume that Judas began his ministry with righteous intent, nor can we assume the opposite.

[MarginOfError]

We (or at least most of us) have no idea comprehension of the strain on a person's soul when they commit suicide. We have no capacity to judge that action. Christ will address it in His own way. Whether Judas goes to heaven or to hell (or anywhere in between) is entirely out of my hands and I'm satisfied with whatever decision is made. As far as I'm concerned, the guy suffered enough. I'm willing to cut him a break and discuss his actions in a purely historical context.

[bytor2112]

The Atonement occured in the Garden of Gethsemene..........Christ was crucified at Golgotha. The arrest of Jesus could have been accomplished without Judas's betrayal.

[Guest The_Doctor]

The Atonement occured in the Garden of Gethsemene..........Christ was crucified at Golgotha. The arrest of Jesus could have been accomplished without Judas's betrayal.

Could you explain that? I thought the Atonement occurred with the crucifixion/resurrection.

[Prodigal_Son]

Could you explain that? I thought the Atonement occurred with the crucifixion/resurrection.

The Atonement began in Gethsemane and ran through the resurrection. The suffering for our sins, as done in the Garden, is only PART of the Atonement.

[BenRaines]

I agree Prodigal Son. Atonement was not just the garden.

Ben Raines

[hordak]

His choice (agency) lead to some ones death. The Atonement would have happen with out Judas.

The Logic doesn't hold true. I could go kill somebody because I knew that at some point they would die. I would just be doing what was already going to happen.

Thats not how it works. Judas made a choice to go against Christ. We all make similar choices (not to the same degree). What side of the line are we on! We all have to be judged accordingly.

Were talking apples and oranges here. IIRC Jesus was meant to die.He new he was going to be betrayed. If Jesus knows the future then it (that portion) is set and Judas had no choice.

If Judas had a choice and avoided the betrayed. The Roman could have rounded up and killed all 13 of them.Then we would have no New testament and not know who Jesus is.

[piper]

Were talking apples and oranges here. IIRC Jesus was meant to die.He new he was going to be betrayed. If Jesus knows the future then it (that portion) is set and Judas had no choice.

Knowing something in no way takes away choice. I can watch someone and know that their actions will bring them pain, but that doesn't make them continue with that action. The choice is still theirs.

I believe that most of the thoughts of Judas as being evil come from 2 things. first, betrayal is an act that most people find reprehensible, especially betrayal for personal gain. Since it was Jesue being betrayed, that makes if that much worse to christians. Secondly, Jesus in his prayer said we have lost none but that son of perdition. Many assume that meant Judas. I don't know for sure who Jesus meant by that statement. That judgement (eternal) on Judas is forbidden to us. One thing is fairly obvious, Judas was so distraught over what he had done and the results of it, that he committed suicide.

[Prodigal_Son]

The Atonement began in Gethsemane and ran through the resurrection. The suffering for our sins, as done in the Garden, is only PART of the Atonement.

I'm quoting myself here. That's probably a bad sign. But I was reading in my scriptures today and realized that what I posted here isn't truly accurate. Because the Atonement had to be worked by a PERFECT mortal, then Christ's entire life was a part of the process. While it may seem to be a case of splitting hairs, in light of this fact - the Atonement encompassed Christ's entire life. Every righteous action, every sin shunned, every transgression avoided - were ALL part of the culmination of a Savior who was perfect in every way being able to work the Atonement on our behalf.

[Prodigal_Son]

I believe that most of the thoughts of Judas as being evil come from 2 things.

Don't forget the fact that Judas was playing "loose and fast" (Holland) with the Apostle's petty cash fund.

[prisonchaplain]

If I understand LDS teaching correctly, Judas will face the worst judgement (hellfire): John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Don't the sons of Perdition end up in hellfire?

[ErikJohnson]

John 17:12

Now if that doesn't definitively answer the original post--it's difficult to imagine what would...

--Erik

[bmy-]

His choice (agency) lead to some ones death. The Atonement would have happen with out Judas.

The Logic doesn't hold true. I could go kill somebody because I knew that at some point they would die. I would just be doing what was already going to happen.

Thats not how it works. Judas made a choice to go against Christ. We all make similar choices (not to the same degree). What side of the line are we on! We all have to be judged accordingly.

I thought it was prophesied that he would be betrayed? As far as I can remember at least. I'm interested in reading more on PCs John verse..

Perhaps more can be discovered by looking at the hebrew meaning. The son of perdition.. that's interesting.

[YoungMormonRoyalist]

It is prophesied actually, a couple of times in the Old Testament. It speaks of how the saviour will be bought for silver and the field bought with it shall be used to bury foreigners....which is what Judas's field was used for.

[bert10]

Hi The Doctor

1) None of the Apostles except Peter "really" knew who Jesus was.

Peter was the first Apostle who heard the Father in heart concerning the true identity of Jesus. But he was not the last one to receive this testimony eventually all of the apostles received it.

2) Jesus knew and still accepted him as an Apostle.

Jesus Chose Judas whom He called a Devil to ensure that the Scriptures be fulfilled.

John 6:70 - Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

It was crucial that Jesus chose a Devil to be one of His Apostle. For only a Devil could betray the Lord after being with Him for close to three years.

John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

In this prayer to the FAther...Jesus refers Judas as to being the "Son of perdition". And a son of perdition are they who commit the sin against the Holy Ghost that is not forgiven in this world nor in the world to come.

------------------------------

3) Judas did kind of repent. (Though probably not correctly.)

Forgiveness of Sins is predicated on repentance. Sons of perdition are they who are unable to be renewed unto repentance by the power of the Holy Ghost since they have rejected it.

I cannot say that Judas repented...no one knows his state of mind at the time and exactly why he committed suicide. I cannot call Judas evil but he did an evil thing.

-------------------------------

Also if Judas did wine up in Hell wouldn't that alter the whole Atonement thing? Since then it wasn't just the sacrifice of Christ's life, but also of Judas's soul.

The Atonement or the reconciliation of Mankind to the FAther thru the mediator Jesus Christ is predicated upon Repentance. Without repentance the Atonement means nothing.

Jesus did not come to save the wicked in their wickedness, nor the sinner in their sins. He came to save all those who will repent and become humble and meek.

Peace be unto you

bert10

Note: This has nothing to do with the Gospel of Judas.

For along time I haven't fully been able to understand why most Christians seem to believe that Judas was the most evil person alive and is in Hell.

The reason I can't fully understand this is:

1) None of the Apostles except Peter "really" knew who Jesus was.

2) Jesus knew and still accepted him as an Apostle.

3) Judas did kind of repent. (Though probably not correctly.)

Also if Judas did wine up in Hell wouldn't that alter the whole Atonement thing? Since then it wasn't just the sacrifice of Christ's life, but also of Judas's soul.

[hordak]

Knowing something in no way takes away choice. I can watch someone and know that their actions will bring them pain, but that doesn't make them continue with that action. The choice is still theirs.

I understand what your saying and would kinda agree in most cases but we are talking about the only begotten son of God. Most people when faced with the fact their friend will betray them to the local authorities would try to get away,or at least separate themselves from them that person.Jesus didn't do that which leads me to believe it was part of the plan.

If Judas did anything other then what Jesus said he would do we whould have to seriously question the divinity of Jesus

.So i guess the question isn't did Judas have a choice but could Judas have made any other choice and Jesus still be divine?

I don't think so,Which would mean he had know other choice in my book.