one God

[PassionForHisWord]

How can they be three different "Gods" under one "Divine Council" if God made this statement in Isaiah 44:6 & 8?

6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God...

8Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Scripture clearly states there there is only one God. If there is only one God, and scripture declares that the Father is God, Jesus is God, the Holy Spirit is God, (note: not "a" God) then we are forced to conclude that They are all one God existing in three centers of consciousness.

Edited September 26, 2008 by PassionForHisWord

[Islander]

How can they be three different "Gods" under one "Divine Council" if God made this statement in Isaiah 44:6 & 8?

Scripture clearly states there there is only one God. If there is only one God, and scripture declares that the Father is God, Jesus is God, the Holy Spirit is God, (note: not "a" God) then we are forced to conclude that They are all one God existing in three centers of consciousness.

True, and I suggested before somewhere, that we have serious linguistic constrains to express the trinity. Now, there should be no questions that they are 3 distinct and separate entities. At the baptism of the Savior in the Jordan river it is unquestionably the best place to appreciate it. Note that in Hebrew the word "God" translated from Adonai (Isa 44:6) also means masculine plural "Master or Lord." The translators tried to preserve the play-on words and the poetry the best they could, and managed to plunge most of Christianity into an endless theological debate. The Hebrews never had such problems, noticed?

Edited September 26, 2008 by Islander

[Maureen]

But is is all semanticsl

Is the Father God?

Is Jesus God?

Is the Holy Spirit God?

Does that make 1 God or 3 Gods -- its all 100% semantics (and 100% irrelivant IMHO)

God does not fit into a nice little package that mankind can put on a shelf with a lable describing it.

But there is a difference between believing that the being(s) that you worship is one singular being or multiple beings. Those differences are called monotheism and polytheism.

M.

[raulrosalez22]

wow this is getting intense =)

good reading though =P

[mnn727]

But there is a difference between believing that the being(s) that you worship is one singular being or multiple beings. Those differences are called monotheism and polytheism.

M.

But my question is (and I seriously mean no disrespect) "Who cares?"

If God came down to you and said "M, I want you to know you were wrong about me, I am really all 3 the same person"

OR

If God came down to you and said "M, I want you to know you were wrong about us, we really are 3 seperate Gods making up one Godhead"

OR

If God came down to you and said "M, I want you to know you were wrong about us, we really are 3 seperate beings making up one God('God' being an office not a person).

Would it really matter? Are there really any possible ramifications? If it were truly important to your salvation don't you think it would have been made clear?

Its all semantics people, and IMHO is not that important in the scheme of things. Many people (not saying you personally)are so concerned about things like this and then they don't do what Christ taught us about living and dealing with others.

Edited September 26, 2008 by mnn727
for clairity

[bytor2112]

It really comes down to understanding. We have further light and knowledge on the nature of God........and an eyewitness account. In 1820, Joseph Smith humbly petitioned Heavenly Father...seeking answers.....and through his humble prayer, the heavens were again opened to mankind and God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to him forever dispelling the myth of the Trinity. They are one God....God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost....not one in substance....but rather, one in purpose.

[Islander]

But my question is (and I seriously mean no disrespect) "Who cares?"

If God came down to you and said "M, I want you to know you were wrong about me, I am really all 3 the same person"

OR

If God came down to you and said "M, I want you to know you were wrong about us, we really are 3 seperate Gods making up one Godhead"

Would it really matter? Are there really any possible ramifications? If it were truly important to your salvation don't you think it would have been made clear?

Its all semantics people and IMHO is not that important in the scheme of things.

I can see your point and I completely agree.

Because we are three dimensional being we almost need to visualize what we conceptualize. Later in life as out thinking becomes more abstract we are able to expand our analytic capacity into more complex patters but in terms of worship, at least for us Latter day Saints, it is simple. We pray to the Father in the name of the Son. And it was Him the God of Abraham, it was Him Jesus, the crucified that rose on the third day , that was and is with the Father, and He made all things, and we worship Him and He is the author and finisher of our salvation thru and by the Atonement. That is the witness that we bare and the fundamental pillar of our religion.

Beyond that my friends, the theological/semantic debate, truly, does not add anything of value to our lives. Like I said before, our Hebrew brethren had no such problems. So, why should we? Just my thoughts

[bytor2112]

It should no longer be a debate......and I think it is important to know and undertand the true nature of the God we serve. If it were not important, Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ would not have appeared to Joseph and declared the creeds of Chistendom to be an abomination. Creeds deal primarily with the nature of the Godhead. Understanding and accepting the truth about God is essential to understanding who we are and our purpose for being here. The truth that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have bodies of flesh and bone and the Holy Ghost is a personage of Spirit is essential to our understanding of why we came here and attained a body. The belief that the Godhead as being three in one, incomprehensible, unknowable, uncreated, incorporeal and without body, parts or passions is indeed an abomination. I am fairly certain that the author of the creeds and the councils that adopted them did not claim that revelation was present in their formulation.

[abqfriend]

I am a Catholic-we have different views on the Trinity and the Godhead or however we wish to express them. Such a topic has been debated for hundreds of years.

Please be respectful of my religious tradition even if you do not believe in it. What you and others may consider an "abomination" are core tenents of my and other faith traditions.

-thankyou.

-Carol

It should no longer be a debate......and I think it is important to know and undertand the true nature of the God we serve. If it were not important, Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ would not have appeared to Joseph and declared the creeds of Chistendom to be an abomination. Creeds deal primarily with the nature of the Godhead. Understanding and accepting the truth about God is essential to understanding who we are and our purpose for being here. The truth that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have bodies of flesh and bone and the Holy Ghost is a personage of Spirit is essential to our understanding of why we came here and attained a body. The belief that the Godhead as being three in one, incomprehensible, unknowable, uncreated, incorporeal and without body, parts or passions is indeed an abomination. I am fairly certain that the author of the creeds and the councils that adopted them did not claim that revelation was present in their formulation.

[Maureen]

The belief that the Godhead as being three in one, incomprehensible, unknowable, uncreated, incorporeal and without body, parts or passions is indeed an abomination. I am fairly certain that the author of the creeds and the councils that adopted them did not claim that revelation was present in their formulation.

I agree with Carol, there are many that post here that believe in the Trinity; and deem it as sacred and significant. I think the rules of the board in regards to respecting doctrines should apply to all posters. You don't have to agree with everything, but being respectful is important.

[prisonchaplain]

But it is all semanticsl

Is the Father God?

Is Jesus God?

Is the Holy Spirit God?

Does that make 1 God or 3 Gods -- its all 100% semantics (and 100% irrelivant IMHO)

God does not fit into a nice little package that mankind can put on a shelf with a lable describing it.

In a vacuum it might seem like semantics, but considered in light of the doctrine of humanity's nature, the variance becomes clear.

1. Is God the one God, creator of heaven and earth and all that is, eternally alone in his supremacy, his eternal nature, and his position as God over all that is?

2. Or is he three gods working together to fashion out of eternal matter, our world, Lord over us and our planet in this dispensation, preparing us to become Lords ourselves.

Both visions can be majestic, inspiring, beautiful religious belief systems...but they are different.

[mnn727]

Both visions can be majestic, inspiring, beautiful religious belief systems...but they are different.

And again, with no disrespect meant - So What? What possible difference could it make to our salvation?

Is God going to consign to hell someone who believes in Christ and loses themselves in service towards others and lives a Christlike life (lets say for example someone like Mother Teresa), for misunderstanding this one thing?

[August]

And again, with no disrespect meant - So What? What possible difference could it make to our salvation?

Is God going to consign to hell someone who believes in Christ and loses themselves in service towards others and lives a Christlike life (lets say for example someone like Mother Teresa), for misunderstanding this one thing?

Is anyone here necessarily saying it makes a difference to salvation? That doesn't mean it isn't a significant issue worthy of discussion and study.

[bytor2112]

Carol and Maureen......I meant no disrespect to your beliefs or anyone elses....I should have made it clear that my post was directed as a response to another LDS member and I have changed the post to reflect that. PLease accept my apology and I will try to be sensitive to the beliefs of others that may read my posts......again, it was a response to another member and not an attempt to insult anothers beliefs. :) Edited September 26, 2008 by bytor2112

[bytor2112]

But my question is (and I seriously mean no disrespect) "Who cares?"

If God came down to you and said "M, I want you to know you were wrong about me, I am really all 3 the same person"

OR

If God came down to you and said "M, I want you to know you were wrong about us, we really are 3 seperate Gods making up one Godhead"

OR

If God came down to you and said "M, I want you to know you were wrong about us, we really are 3 seperate beings making up one God('God' being an office not a person).

Would it really matter? Are there really any possible ramifications? If it were truly important to your salvation don't you think it would have been made clear?

Its all semantics people, and IMHO is not that important in the scheme of things. Many people (not saying you personally)are so concerned about things like this and then they don't do what Christ taught us about living and dealing with others.

It should no longer be a debate......and I think it is important to know and undertand the true nature of the God we serve. If it were not important, Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ would not have appeared to Joseph and declared the creeds of Chistendom to be an abomination. Creeds deal primarily with the nature of the Godhead. Understanding and accepting the truth about God is essential to understanding who we are and our purpose for being here. The truth that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have bodies of flesh and bone and the Holy Ghost is a personage of Spirit is essential to our understanding of why we came here and attained a body. The belief that the Godhead as being three in one, incomprehensible, unknowable, uncreated, incorporeal and without body, parts or passions is indeed an abomination. I am fairly certain that the author of the creeds and the councils that adopted them did not claim that revelation was present in their formulation.

[mnn727]

Bytor, I am not debating this from a Mormon point of view (even though I am one) I am trying to point out to general everyday Christians that it just isn't that important. Even from an LDS viewpoint I don't thinks its anywhere near as important as believing in Christ's atoning sacrifice and following His teachings are.

Some doctrine is more important than others.

Edited September 26, 2008 by mnn727

[bytor2112]

MNN727.......I tend to think it is very important. I mean .......the First Vision is a big deal and really rehapes mankinds understanding of God. I don't think that one can truly understand the grand design without understanding those basic facts.....IMO. If other Christians views of the trinity were correct....that would mean that our beliefs would be wrong....so it is important to understand the true nature of God.

[MaidservantX]

The Isaiah quotation is not meant to give us the number of gods. It is not meant to give the nature of God. The Isaiah quotation is expressing the power of God and his deliverance, and there is no other God that delivers, only him. This is his message to Israel (and to us) who are mired down in idols (worldliness) -- that we should not be faithful to any other but him, because he is the only God. The other gods are powerless. This quotation is not meant to describe the eternities where God comes from and how things are exactly there including who and how God is. A metaphor for this could be the fact that we give allegiance to our country (for USA) and we honor our leader the President and in some ways he is the face of the country, but that doesn't mean there isn't Congress and State department and IRS and such. I'm not sure how far this metaphor carries, but hopefully you get what I'm trying to say.

[abqfriend]

Hi Bytor-- you just repeated again your thoughts that creeds are an abomination. Although your comment may be directed to someone other than myself, I take such quote in a negative manner. The Trinity is an important doctrine of mine and many Christians. I know we disagree on that which is ok, but please consider how you word things as investigators like myself are here on this board-especially this section of the board. We may not have prophets in the Catholic Church and other churches-but we believe the Holy Spirit is at work in our faith community as The Holy Spirit is in yours. Creeds were not thought of hastely and those that brought them together did not always agree, but I believe the holy spirit was active in such work. That may not be "revelation," but I believe they are no less the work of the Holy Spirit in a community of faith.

How would members of the LDS Church feel--if I insulted a basic teaching of the LDS Church (as some come on this board and do) and said my comments were only directed toward one member? Would the other members of the LDS Church also feel hurt by such comments--I think so.

Perhaps such a discussion between LDS members alone- would be better held on the gospel section of this board-which is less frequented by investigators such as myself.

I would like to welcome you to my door sometime as an LDS Missionary or member---but- I will be ready with my "Triple" and tons of questions.

-Carol--A Catholic Investigator

Carol and Maureen......I meant no disrespect to your beliefs or anyone elses....I should have made it clear that my post was directed as a response to another LDS member and I have changed the post to reflect that. PLease accept my apology and I will try to be sensitive to the beliefs of others that may read my posts......again, it was a response to another member and not an attempt to insult anothers beliefs. :)

Edited September 27, 2008 by abqfriend

[prisonchaplain]

And again, with no disrespect meant - So What? What possible difference could it make to our salvation?

Is God going to consign to hell someone who believes in Christ and loses themselves in service towards others and lives a Christlike life (lets say for example someone like Mother Teresa), for misunderstanding this one thing?

I do not have a direct answer for you. But, I would pose this question: If we have the Holy Spirit to guide, and we embrace the Christian gospel, will we not be guided generally towards the truth about who God is, and who we are in relation to him. So, if God is a Holy Trinity, and I came into existence at conception, but declare that our God (amongst the countless G/gods) is a tri-theistic partnership, and that I have an eternal pre-existence, and will one day attain godhood myself...wouldn't the Holy Spirit seek to correct me? So, what does it mean if I'm never set straight? Did I refuse to listen to the Spirit's still small voice? Did I ignore it? Did I harden myself against it? Just how wrong can I be about God and myself, and still be pleasing to God? And, to repeat my first sentence--I don't have the definitive conclusion.

[mnn727]

I do not have a direct answer for you. But, I would pose this question: If we have the Holy Spirit to guide, and we embrace the Christian gospel, will we not be guided generally towards the truth about who God is, and who we are in relation to him. .

Thank you for your answer Prisonchaplin, I do appreciate your views and discussion. The problem I have is with your question to me. Many people claim guideance of the Holy Spirit, yet not all those believe the same things, unfortunatly the Bible by itself can be interpreted different ways. We all see what we want to see when reading it.

While I do not believe (for example) in predetermination, I can see in the Bible where some people might, it all depends on where you place your emphasis when reading the Bible.

[mnn727]

Hi Bytor-- you just repeated again your thoughts that creeds are an abomination. Although your comment may be directed to someone other than myself, I take such quote in a negative manner. The Trinity is an important doctrine of mine and many Christians. I know we disagree on that which is ok, but please consider how you word things as investigators like myself are here on this board-especially this section of the board.

I've gotta agree with abqfriend here bytor, I can tell you are passionate about this, but I gotta tell you, lack of respect for others beliefs is not something the Church teaches or wants -- do missionaries go out to debate? or disrespect? no they go out to teach, with love of God and their fellow man.

While I probably believe very close to what you believe, I also don't think God fits into a nice neat little package. While Joseph Smith taught us many truths about God I don't believe that one of them was to disrespect the beliefs of others. I also believe that in order to know the true nature of God we'll need to be taught by Him in person probably over the span of Eons.

You believe its very important and I don't think it is that vital - lets agree to disagree and stop the disrespect of people's beliefs who come here to learn are feeling.

Articles of Faith: 11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

Edited September 27, 2008 by mnn727
to phrase things better

[candyprpl]

While reading the last couple of pages of posts I had a thought.

From the Lectures on Faith -- Third Lecture

In the second lecture it was shown how it was that the knowledge of the existene of God came into the world, and by what means the first thoughts were suggested to the minds of men that such a being did actually exist; and that it was by reason of the knowledge of his existence that there was a foundation laid for the exercise of faith in him, as the only being in whom faith could center for life and salvation....

Let us here observe, that three things are necessary in order that any rational and intelligent being may exercise faith in God unto life and salvation.

First, the idea that he actually exists.

Secondly, a correct idea of his character, perfections, and attributes.

Thirdly, an actual knowledge that the course of life which he is pursuing is according to his will. For without acquaintance with these three important facts, the faith of every rational being must be imperfect and unproductive; but with this understanding it can become perfect and fruitful, abounding in righteousness, unto the praise and glory of God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

mnn727 -- I don't know if I'm addressing your concern but this lecture did come to my mind and it has been important to me to understand the Godhead. I feel closer to Heavenly Father since making this a part of my study.

My dear friend PC -- it has been a concern to me, our differences. It makes me question if any of us are really being taught by the Spirit and if we are, why the differences. You know I've had this concern on other threads as well.

[prisonchaplain]

Thank you for your answer Prisonchaplin, I do appreciate your views and discussion. The problem I have is with your question to me. Many people claim guideance of the Holy Spirit, yet not all those believe the same things, unfortunatly the Bible by itself can be interpreted different ways. We all see what we want to see when reading it.

While I do not believe (for example) in predetermination, I can see in the Bible where some people might, it all depends on where you place your emphasis when reading the Bible.

You are, of course, right. In fact, for this cause, I'm not convinced there is a single "true church," but rather believe in the universal Christian church, made up of all true believers. I doubt that any human denomination got all doctrine perfectly right. So, how wrong can we be--especially about important matters--and be okay? It truly is an open question.

[richlittell]

I think we all could try a little harder to stay on topic in respect to the original poster, at least in the beginning. Ever notice how nearly all posts seem to merge into a rehash of the same old generic topics and lose sight of the original question and the concerns of the original poster?

To shadowhunter. You most certainly may believe in only ONE God of the universe. For me, that means God, our heavenly Father.

And again, with no disrespect meant - So What? What possible difference could it make to our salvation?

Since the initial question/post was initiated by an investigator who is considering baptism, I think it is very important that he/she understand that according to LDS doctrine God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are separate personages, as the example was given by Hemi in the baptism of Christ, and of Bytor, in Joseph Smith's Vision.

An investigator must ask and answer for him/herself: was Joseph Smith a prophet of God? Was his vision in the grove a true account? Did he indeed see God the Father, and Jesus Christ his son as two separate personages?

Edited September 27, 2008 by richlittell