rameumptom Posted September 28, 2008 Report Share Posted September 28, 2008 Quoting the church fathers is fine, but if they think Psalm 82 is refering to deification of man, they are simply wrong. The "gods" in Psalm 82 are killed according to the Psalm. That's the extreme opposite of deification. If Jerome misread it that bad, well I'm sorry for Jerome. If Jerome wants to talk to me about it, that's fine too.I also unfortunately don't have access to the entire work by Jerome so I can't read the snippet in it's context. Since you are quoting the work, what is the context of the quote? Surely you check sources, right?Church fathers aren't scripture and I laid out my take on Psalm 82, and it's relation to John 10, so quoting church fathers is nothing more than an interesting footnote, and calling it "interesting" is a formality of respect.Scripture often has both an earthly meaning and a heavenly/spiritual one. We see it here, as well.They are talking about the divine council here. These are sons of El that are each given an earthly kingdom to rule over. Yahweh received the greatest prize: Israel. Many of them squandered their divine inheritance, using intrigue to steal the portions of others. Job 1 tells about Satan and the sons of El going to challenge Yahweh to a dual over his son, Job! This is exactly what Psalms 82 is directly going after. They were to deal well with their earthly children over whom they'd been given authority. Instead, they squandered their opportunity and many fell from their divine place. Some suggest that Isaiah 14:12-20 tells of the Babylonian king representing one of these divine sons falling from heaven as he sought to overthrow God. LDS doctrine teaches it was none other than Satan (Moses 1:4, Abraham 3:24-28). Both in the ancient writings of the divine council and in LDS scripture, we read of challenges being made to God and Jesus' role as Savior. Funny how a young farm boy from the Northeast could figure that out when it has taken biblical scholars up until the last 25 years to begin to understand this!Here are a few links concerning the divine council:The Heavenly Divine CouncilReconsidering Psalms 82:6And here's Psalms 82 in the New American Bible version: A psalm of Asaph. God rises in the divine council, gives judgment in the midst of the gods.2 "How long will you judge unjustly and favor the cause of the wicked? Selah3 Defend the lowly and fatherless; render justice to the afflicted and needy.4 Rescue the lowly and poor; deliver them from the hand of the wicked."5 The gods neither know nor understand, wandering about in darkness, and all the world's foundations shake.6 I declare: "Gods though you be, offspring of the Most High (El Elyon) all of you,7 Yet like any mortal you shall die; like any prince you shall fall."8 Arise, O God, judge the earth, for yours are all the nations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a-train Posted September 28, 2008 Report Share Posted September 28, 2008 Behold, will ye reject these words? Will ye reject the words of the prophets; and will ye reject all the words which have been spoken concerning Christ, after so many have spoken concerning him; and deny the good word of Christ, and the power of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost, and quench the Holy Spirit, and make a mock of the great plan of redemption, which hath been laid for you? - Jacob 6:8 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. - Matt 5:3 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Matt 5:5 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. - Matt 5:10 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. - Matt 19:28-29 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: - Matt. 25:33-34 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. - Rom. 8:16-18 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. - Rev. 3:21 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. - Rev. 20:4 -a-train Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yekcidmij Posted September 28, 2008 Report Share Posted September 28, 2008 Word Print study was done on Isaiah, showing there probably was a Deutero-Isaiah,Actually word print study isn't as conclusive as you think. First, the Qumran document matches our current Isaiah very well. It doesn't show any evience of massive doctoring. It shows no evidence of major redactional editors or the like. The only "evidence" that ever comes foward is a word print analysys. And maybe the word print analysis is correct and there were many authors. There is no conclusion among scholars on how many authors there were. It ranges from 1 to many. For example Y. Radday did an investigation and concluded that 1-12 was one author, 23-35 was another, 40-48 was another, 49-55 another, and 56-66 another. And word print analyis does show a degree of unity to the work, for example, the phrae "Holy One of Israel" is a very rare phrase in the Bible and it shows up in chs 1-39 16 and chs 40-66 7 times. Similiar concepts also show up in various parts of the book. So word print analysis hardly leads to the conclusion of just 2 authors and there is no consensus on how many. And word print analysis does not lead to the conclusion of Barker. That's her theory and is not the natural conclusion from the evidence.If the work is not a unity, I think it becomes difficult to explain how we got the present form of the book at all. You have to end up positing a school of "I Isaiah" who followed their master before the exile, and a group of "II ISaiah" students who grew out of the first school during the exile. The tendency seems to have become to whittle down Isaiah into very small units of which later redactors, presumably of these various "Isaiah" schools, add their prophecies and that the actual original Isaiah was limited to the first part of the book and wasn't much more that Amos and Hosea in size. It should be noted though that contemporaries of Isaiah (Amos, Hosea) did not spark such movements of prophetic schools nor is there any other evidence that there was a school of Isaiah with which to redact more prophecies onto the original.The only consensus among scholars is that Isaiah isn't a unity. But that is where we began and an argument can be made to the unity of the book. (can provide a bibliography of works that do if anyone is interested). but did not include the chapters included in the Book of Mormon (Isaiah in the Book of Mormon, ed Parry/Welch). Also, of the disputed chapters from Deutero-Isaiah in the Book of Mormon, it only includes the chapters that do not make Yahweh and Elohim one being: one of the clear points of the Deuteronomist view.Well, the problem is that 961 times in the OT, YHWH is explicitly called Elohim. It's not limited to Isaiah. Deut 6:5 is a good example that even Jesus quotes in Matt 22. So saying that all instances in the OT of YHWH being equated to Elohim is a carry over from a Babylonian corruption is premature. This also fails to take into account both the DSS and the SP, both groups of which had no love for followers of Ezra's reforms, aka the Pharisees, but both groups also include the equating of YHWH to Elohim and both groups include all of the Torah with only a few slight variations.Also, I Nephi 22 quotes Deut 18 which includes the exact same "Lord your God" phrase that translates to "YHWH Elohim" 20 And the Lord will surely prepare a way for his people, unto the fulfilling of the words of Moses, which he spake, saying: A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass that all those who will not hear that prophet shall be cut off from among the people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yekcidmij Posted September 28, 2008 Report Share Posted September 28, 2008 (edited) Scripture often has both an earthly meaning and a heavenly/spiritual one. We see it here, as well. If you read my earlier post, I don't dispute that there is an assembly there. It should be noted also that the assembly in Psalm 82 is sentenced to death. And if I didn't say it earlier, I do see connections to Job and to Deut 32, and possibly a few other places.The post and my reasoning on PSalm 82 was rather lengthy, so I'm not going to repost it.And here's Psalms 82 in the New American Bible version: The literal Hebrew says, "assembly of El" not "divine assembly". The New American Bible is giving a little interpretation to their translation. And there is a distinction drawn in vs 6 between the elohim and men. The elohim will die just like men do. The implication is that men die and elohim normally do not, but this will be an exception due the the Elohim standing in the assembly that renders judgment on them. The elohim of El's assembly are unjust and so will die like men do. In any case, the elohim here are not members of the human race nor are they humans who have progressed to become members of El's assembly, and if they were, they aren't anymore because they are dead according to the Psalm. The elohim in Psalm 82 are not elohim you want to identify yourself with. They are unjust, unknowing, impotent, and ultimately, judged and dead. Edited September 28, 2008 by Yekcidmij Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rameumptom Posted September 29, 2008 Report Share Posted September 29, 2008 I agree they were unjust elohim that were condemned to die. That was what I was driving at, since someone had suggested that it was referring to earthly judges and not divine beings. I thought the NAB helped bring that concept out better. I have no problem with a singular author for Isaiah. My point in discussing the word prints wasn't that there have to be two authors, but that the normal divisions made by those insisting on Deutero-Isaiah may be wrong in the chapters assigned to him. The word prints research done suggests that the Isaiah chapters in the Book of Mormon are all consistent with one author, rather than two regarding those chapters. The Deuteronomists sought to join Elohim and Yahweh together into one. Since they preceeded Nephi, it is possible that some terminology from the Deuteronomists did make it into the Brass Plates. I could imagine Laban adding a copy of Deuteronomy from Jerusalem's temple in Josiah's day, which would be used by Nephi later on. We cannot conclude that the Isaiah scrolls in the DSS, or any of the DSS, to have not been affected by the Diaspora and Ezra's redaction. After all, the DSS date back to the 2nd century BCE, centuries after the Deuteronomists, Priestly group, and Ezra made their changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yekcidmij Posted September 29, 2008 Report Share Posted September 29, 2008 I agree they were unjust elohim that were condemned to die. That was what I was driving at, since someone had suggested that it was referring to earthly judges and not divine beings. I thought the NAB helped bring that concept out better. Ah, I think it's a common misconception that it's refering to earthly, human judges. That is what the Jews thought (cf: m. avot and Targum Isaiah), but that's definitely not what the passage is talking about. The passage talks about divine elohim in an assembly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted September 30, 2008 Report Share Posted September 30, 2008 (edited) ......I was using Deut 6:4 in terms of the context it occurs in. It refers to the uniqueness of Israel's God and that He is the sole object of their worship. It is not an analysis of the inner being, contrary to what PassionForHisWord says. It has nothing to do with unity either. Neither of those are the appropriate context of Deuteronomy. It has to do with uniquness and devotion......... In Deuteronomy chapter 6 verse 4 the ancient Hebrew word from which the English word “one” is translated is “ehad”. This word has two possible understandings. One meaning is a united plural meaning. An example of ehad as a plural united meaning is being “one” in marriage. The singular meaning of ehad is that of complete singular uniqueness even in expression without divisions. This singularity is in complete opposition to the doctrine of the Trinity and the divisions of G-d into persons of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. If ehad is to be understood in singular context and not a plural multiple context, then there is no Father, Son and Holy Ghost. If G-d was singular but having distinguishable and different addressable understandings such as Father, Son and Holy Ghost the correct Hebrew term would be ‘Yhead”.If you are a Christian and believe Jesus is the Son of G-d then you only have one option in reality with the oneness of G-d expressed in scripture. That is to believe that Jesus and the Father are one in the same way that a husband and wife are one in marriage. This is the same as the ancient covenant of citizens of a Kingdom. That is that the Suzerain and his Vassal heir are one.The uniqueness is in the entire structure of the Kingdom and all apointed and lawful representivies within that structure. Rejecting even the lowest citizen of such a Kingdom was considered a rejection of the very King. The oneness is in reference to everything associated or under the direction of that G-d.The Traveler Edited September 30, 2008 by Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yekcidmij Posted September 30, 2008 Report Share Posted September 30, 2008 (edited) In Deuteronomy chapter 6 verse 4 the ancient Hebrew word from which the English word “one” is translated is “ehad”. This word has two possible understandings. One meaning is a united plural meaning. An example of ehad as a plural united meaning is being “one” in marriage. The singular meaning of ehad is that of complete singular uniqueness even in expression without divisions. This singularity is in complete opposition to the doctrine of the Trinity and the divisions of G-d into persons of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. If ehad is to be understood in singular context and not a plural multiple context, then there is no Father, Son and Holy Ghost. If G-d was singular but having distinguishable and different addressable understandings such as Father, Son and Holy Ghost the correct Hebrew term would be ‘Yhead”.If you are a Christian and believe Jesus is the Son of G-d then you only have one option in reality with the oneness of G-d expressed in scripture. That is to believe that Jesus and the Father are one in the same way that a husband and wife are one in marriage. This is the same as the ancient covenant of citizens of a Kingdom. That is that the Suzerain and his Vassal heir are one.The uniqueness is in the entire structure of the Kingdom and all apointed and lawful representivies within that structure. Rejecting even the lowest citizen of such a Kingdom was considered a rejection of the very King. The oneness is in reference to everything associated or under the direction of that G-d.The Traveler I realize what "one" means. Clearly in the context of Deuteronomy it is talking about devotion and worship of one, unique God. It has nothing to do with analyzing the inner being of God. It has nothing to do with believing or denying that other deities exist or don't exist. It has nothing to do with Trinitarian theology and nothing to do with unity within a Godhead. Those are not the purposes of the author. If you understand Deuteronomy 6:4 as refering to devotion and worship of this rather unique God, then it flows right along with the surrounding context.Deuteronomy 4:15 is where it starts and it goes through chapter 11-ish. I won't post all of it (it's entirely too much) but I will highlight some things surrounding the passage in question, all of it should be read though:4:15 Be very careful, then, because you saw no form at the time the Lord spoke to you at Horeb from the middle of the fire. 4:16 I say this so you will not corrupt yourselves by making an image in the form of any kind of figure. This includes the likeness of a human male or female, 4:17 any kind of land animal, any bird that flies in the sky, 4:18 anything that crawls on the ground, or any fish in the deep waters of the earth. 4:19 When you look up to the sky and see the sun, moon, and stars – the whole heavenly creation – you must not be seduced to worship and serve them, for the Lord your God has assigned them to all the people of the world. 4:20 You, however, the Lord has selected and brought from Egypt, that iron-smelting furnace, to be his special people as you are today. 4:21 But the Lord became angry with me because of you and vowed that I would never cross the Jordan nor enter the good land that he 36 is about to give you. 4:22 So I must die here in this land; I will not cross the Jordan. But you are going over and will possess that good land. 4:23 Be on guard so that you do not forget the covenant of the Lord your God that he has made with you, and that you do not make an image of any kind, just as he has forbidden you. 4:24 For the Lord your God is a consuming fire; he is a jealous God.4:25 After you have produced children and grandchildren and have been in the land a long time, if you become corrupt and make an image of any kind and do other evil things before the Lord your God that enrage him, 4:26 I invoke heaven and earth as witnesses against you today that you will surely and swiftly be removed from the very land you are about to cross the Jordan to possess. You will not last long there because you will surely be annihilated. 4:27 Then the Lord will scatter you among the peoples and there will be very few of you among the nations where the Lord will drive you. 4:28 There you will worship gods made by human hands – wood and stone that can neither see, hear, eat, nor smell. 4:29 But if you seek the Lord your God from there, you will find him, if, indeed, you seek him with all your heart and soul. 4:30 In your distress when all these things happen to you in the latter days, if you return to the Lord your God and obey him 4:31 (for he is a merciful God), he will not let you down or destroy you, for he cannot forget the covenant with your ancestors that he confirmed by oath to them.4:32 Indeed, ask about the distant past, starting from the day God created humankind on the earth, and ask from one end of heaven to the other, whether there has ever been such a great thing as this, or even a rumor of it. 4:33 Have a people ever heard the voice of God speaking from the middle of fire, as you yourselves have, and lived to tell about it? 4:34 Or has God ever before tried to deliver a nation from the middle of another nation, accompanied by judgments, signs, wonders, war, strength, power, and other very terrifying things like the Lord your God did for you in Egypt before your very eyes? 4:35 You have been taught that the Lord alone is God – there is no other besides him. 4:36 From heaven he spoke to you in order to teach you, and on earth he showed you his great fire from which you also heard his words. 4:37 Moreover, because he loved your ancestors, he chose their descendants who followed them and personally brought you out of Egypt with his great power 4:38 to dispossess nations greater and stronger than you and brought you here this day to give you their land as your property. 4:39 Today realize and carefully consider that the Lord is God in heaven above and on earth below – there is no other! 4:40 Keep his statutes and commandments that I am setting forth today so that it may go well with you and your descendants and that you may enjoy longevity in the land that the Lord your God is about to give you as a permanent possession. In chapter 4 Moses is reminding people of what God had done for them, and he is imploring them to obey and worship God and God alone. Don't worship the stars like your neighbors. What other god has dared invade a land other than his own? What other god speaks out of a fire? Remember the covenant he made with us! Remember Egypt! Follow God and God alone. Don't go after the gods of the land we are about to go into. That's what Moses is trying to tell the people. Moses continues this in chapter 5:5:1 Then Moses called all the people of Israel together and said to them: “Listen, Israel, to the statutes and ordinances that I am about to deliver to you today; learn them and be careful to keep them! 5:2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 5:3 He did not make this covenant with our ancestors but with us, we who are here today, all of us living now. 5:4 The Lord spoke face to face with you at the mountain, from the middle of the fire.5:32 Be careful, therefore, to do exactly what the Lord your God has commanded you; do not turn right or left! 5:33 Walk just as he has commanded you so that you may live, that it may go well with you, and that you may live long in the land you are going to possess. Moses is imploring the people to covenant obedience. They hold up their end of the covenant because God has been gracious enough, not only to enter into a covenant with them, but He has held up to His end of the deal. "Listen Israel" (Shema Yisrael!), "remember what God did for you". And the immediate context of Deut 6:4:6:1 Now these are the commandments, statutes, and ordinances that the Lord your God instructed me to teach you so that you may carry them out in the land where you are headed 6:2 and that you may so revere the Lord your God that you will keep all his statutes and commandments that I am giving you – you, your children, and your grandchildren – all your lives, to prolong your days. 6:3 Pay attention, Israel, and be careful to do this so that it may go well with you and that you may increase greatly in number – as the Lord, God of your ancestors, said to you, you will have a land flowing with milk and honey.6:4 Listen, Israel: The Lord is our God, the Lord is one! 6:5 You must love the Lord your God with your whole mind, your whole being, and all your strength.6:6 These words I am commanding you today must be kept in mind, 6:7 and you must teach them to your children and speak of them as you sit in your house, as you walk along the road, as you lie down, and as you get up. 6:8 You should tie them as a reminder on your forearm and fasten them as symbols on your forehead. 6:9 Inscribe them on the doorframes of your houses and gates.6:10 Then when the Lord your God brings you to the land he promised your ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to give you – a land with large, fine cities you did not build, 6:11 houses filled with choice things you did not accumulate, hewn out cisterns you did not dig, and vineyards and olive groves you did not plant – and you eat your fill, 6:12 be careful not to forget the Lord who brought you out of Egypt, that place of slavery. 6:13 You must revere the Lord your God, serve him, and take oaths using only his name. 6:14 You must not go after other gods, those of the surrounding peoples, 6:15 for the Lord your God, who is present among you, is a jealous God and his anger will erupt against you and remove you from the land. 6:16 You must not put the Lord your God to the test as you did at Massah. 6:17 Keep his commandments very carefully, as well as the stipulations and statutes he commanded you to observe. 6:18 Do whatever is proper and good before the Lord so that it may go well with you and that you may enter and occupy the good land that he promised your ancestors, 6:19 and that you may drive out all your enemies just as the Lord said.6:20 When your children ask you later on, “What are the stipulations, statutes, and ordinances that the Lord our God commanded you?” 6:21 you must say to them, “We were Pharaoh’s slaves in Egypt, but the Lord brought us out of Egypt in a powerful way. 6:22 And he brought signs and great, devastating wonders on Egypt, on Pharaoh, and on his whole family before our very eyes. 6:23 He delivered us from there so that he could give us the land he had promised our ancestors. 6:24 The Lord commanded us to obey all these statutes and to revere him so that it may always go well for us and he may preserve us, as he has to this day. 6:25 We will be innocent if we carefully keep all these commandments before the Lord our God, just as he demands.” The correct meaning of Deut 6:4 has nothing to do with analyzing the inner being of God. Trinitarian theology or unity within the godhead are the farthest things from Moses mind. Moses is doing all he can to just get the people to obey God and serve Him only. The dangers of going into Canaan and settling/conquering the lands of other peoples were going to be theological as well as physical. The Canaanites had their own gods of their own lands and one of the many hazards of living in the area was going to be the temptation to worship these other tribal/national deities and to forget about the God who rescued them from Egypt and entered into a covenant relationship with them. Moses had been leading the people long enough and knew the tendency of the people was to grumble against God, question God, and forget God. Heck, Moses had no sooner gone up Sinai than the people made a golden calf to worship. They must remeber God, serve Him, trust Him, and obey Him, and nothing else:Hear O Israel, the LORD our God, He is One! You must love the LORD your God with all your mind, soul and strengeth.Moses picks keeps on trucking with this theme through Deuteronomy 11 that Israel should worship, follow, trust and obey God alone. Jesus even repeats Deut 6:5 as the greatest commandment.Deut 6:4 doesn't have anything to do with Trinitarianism, nothing to do with the existence or non-existence of other deities, and northing to do with a united godhead. It has everything to do with covenant love and faithfulness on the part of Israel to God because God lives up to His end of the covenant. Edited September 30, 2008 by Yekcidmij Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yekcidmij Posted September 30, 2008 Report Share Posted September 30, 2008 (edited) I said " you are gods, all of you sons of the most high.’ let Eunomius hear this, let Arius, who say that the son of God is son in the same way we are. That we are gods is not so by nature, but by grace. "but to as many as receive Him he gave power to becoming sons of God" I made man for that purpose, that from men they may become gods. We are called gods and sons!...(Christ said) "all of you sons of the Most High," it is not possible to be the son of the Most High, unless He Himself is the Most High. I said that all of you would be exalted as I am exalted.(Jerome (340 A.D.-420 A.D.) the homilies of Saint Jerome pg. 106-107). Here is why I would like the context of this quote from Jerome (and I should get a cookie for digging up this obscure quote; it took a few days):St. Jerome Letter XXII. To Eustochium:4. So long as we are held down by this frail body, so long as we have our treasure in earthen vessels; so long as the flesh lusteth against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh, there can be no sure victory. “Our adversary the devil goeth about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.” “Thou makest darkness,” David says, “and it is night: wherein all the beasts of the forest do creep forth. The young lions roar after their prey and seek their meat from God.” The devil looks not for unbelievers, for those who are without, whose flesh the Assyrian king roasted in the furnace. It is the church of Christ that he “makes haste to spoil.” According to Habakkuk, “His food is of the choicest.” A Job is the victim of his machinations, and after devouring Judas he seeks power to sift the [other] apostles. The Saviour came not to send peace upon the earth but a sword.Lucifer fell, Lucifer who used to rise at dawn; and he who was bred up in a paradise of delight had the well-earned sentence passed upon him, “Though thou exalt thyself as the eagle, and though thou set thy nest among the stars, thence will I bring thee down, saith the Lord.” For he had said in his heart, “I will exalt my throne above the stars of God,” and “I will be like the Most High.” Wherefore God says every day to the angels, as they descend the ladder that Jacob saw in his dream, “I have said ye are Gods and all of you are children of the Most High. But ye shall die like men and fall like one of the princes.” The devil fell first, and since “God standeth in the congregation of the Gods and judgeth among the Gods,”the apostle writes to those who are ceasing to be Gods—“Whereas there is among you envying and strife, are ye not carnal and walk as men?” In that quote Jerome, to my actual surprise, understands Psalm 82 as I do. He thinks Psalm 82 is refering to gods (or angels) who have fallen.I like finding that I agree with other people and am not out on a limb of my own (though if it necessarily comes down to it, I'll go sit out there by myself). Now, instead of me being sad and thinking I was at odds with St. Jerome, it makes me wonder about that other quote and whether or not it's in the appropriate context. Edited September 30, 2008 by Yekcidmij Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted September 30, 2008 Report Share Posted September 30, 2008 (edited) I realize what "one" means. Clearly in the context of Deuteronomy it is talking about devotion and worship of one, unique God. It has nothing to do with analyzing the inner being of God. It has nothing to do with believing or denying that other deities exist or don't exist. It has nothing to do with Trinitarian theology and nothing to do with unity within a Godhead. Those are not the purposes of the author. If you understand Deuteronomy 6:4 as refering to devotion and worship of this rather unique God, then it flows right along with the surrounding context.Deuteronomy 4:15 is where it starts and it goes through chapter 11-ish. I won't post all of it (it's entirely too much) but I will highlight some things surrounding the passage in question, all of it should be read though:In chapter 4 Moses is reminding people of what God had done for them, and he is imploring them to obey and worship God and God alone. Don't worship the stars like your neighbors. What other god has dared invade a land other than his own? What other god speaks out of a fire? Remember the covenant he made with us! Remember Egypt! Follow God and God alone. Don't go after the gods of the land we are about to go into. That's what Moses is trying to tell the people. Moses continues this in chapter 5:Moses is imploring the people to covenant obedience. They hold up their end of the covenant because God has been gracious enough, not only to enter into a covenant with them, but He has held up to His end of the deal. "Listen Israel" (Shema Yisrael!), "remember what God did for you". And the immediate context of Deut 6:4:The correct meaning of Deut 6:4 has nothing to do with analyzing the inner being of God. Trinitarian theology or unity within the godhead are the farthest things from Moses mind. Moses is doing all he can to just get the people to obey God and serve Him only. The dangers of going into Canaan and settling/conquering the lands of other peoples were going to be theological as well as physical. The Canaanites had their own gods of their own lands and one of the many hazards of living in the area was going to be the temptation to worship these other tribal/national deities and to forget about the God who rescued them from Egypt and entered into a covenant relationship with them. Moses had been leading the people long enough and knew the tendency of the people was to grumble against God, question God, and forget God. Heck, Moses had no sooner gone up Sinai than the people made a golden calf to worship. They must remeber God, serve Him, trust Him, and obey Him, and nothing else:Hear O Israel, the LORD our God, He is One! You must love the LORD your God with all your mind, soul and strengeth.Moses picks keeps on trucking with this theme through Deuteronomy 11 that Israel should worship, follow, trust and obey God alone. Jesus even repeats Deut 6:5 as the greatest commandment.Deut 6:4 doesn't have anything to do with Trinitarianism, nothing to do with the existence or non-existence of other deities, and northing to do with a united godhead. It has everything to do with covenant love and faithfulness on the part of Israel to God because God lives up to His end of the covenant. I am not sure if you really understand - but you appear close. The following quote sums up the accepting and worship of "ehad" or one G-d.The uniqueness is in the entire structure of the Kingdom and all apointed and lawful representivies within that structure. Rejecting even the lowest citizen of such a Kingdom was considered a rejection of the very King. The oneness is in reference to everything associated or under the direction of that G-d. Left out of this discussion is the concept of covenant - that creates and opens up a vast array of understanding of man's association to G-d and his kingdom or domain (which includes his appointed servants). I would, however, point out that under ancient law to refuse a vassal or servant of the king was an act of treason to which one was blinded or made deaf. Thus the saying "eyes that see" and "ears that hear" were statements of loyalty.The Traveler Edited September 30, 2008 by Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yekcidmij Posted September 30, 2008 Report Share Posted September 30, 2008 I am not sure if you really understand - but you appear close. The following quote sums up the accepting and worship of "ehad" or one G-d. Well, I stand by what I said. Deuteronomy makes it rather clear that the covenant relationship was between YHWH and Israel and that Israel was to devote herself to YHWH alone.The uniqueness is in the entire structure of the Kingdom and all apointed and lawful representivies within that structure. Rejecting even the lowest citizen of such a Kingdom was considered a rejection of the very King. The oneness is in reference to everything associated or under the direction of that G-d. "Good" Angels, who would presumabley be a part of God's Kingdom, were not to be worshiped, neither were dead spirits (Deut 18:9-14). Israel was not to go and worship and deovote herself to anyone but YHWH, not Moses, not Aaron, not Joshua, not any other Israelite, not even the other "hosts of heaven" (Deut 4:19), but YHWH. If you are a member of God's Kingdom, I still cannot worship you and worshiping you is not the same as worshiping God. The uniqueness in Deuteronomy is about YHWH Himself. He is unlike any other god.Now, if I were to reject the Word of YHWH, that would be a different can of worms to open. Rejecting YHWH's Word, is the same as rejecting Him. So, for a silly oversimplified example, if I say to my buddy, "Jesus says He's the only way to the Father", and my buddy says, "no, I don't believe it", then my buddy has not rejected me, he's rejected God's Word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yekcidmij Posted September 30, 2008 Report Share Posted September 30, 2008 (edited) I Left out of this discussion is the concept of covenant I included it in my comments. Covenant is central to Israelites relationship with God.I would, however, point out that under ancient law to refuse a vassal or servant of the king was an act of treason to which one was blinded or made deaf. Thus the saying "eyes that see" and "ears that hear" were statements of loyalty. Interesting thought. I had a slightly different take, where worshiping something other than God made that "other thing" a persons god and instead of reflecting God's image like we were meant to, that person reflects the image of their god. So in the case of Psalm 115, 135, the idol worshipers end up reflecting the image of their wood and stone idols. 115:4 Their idols are made of silver and gold –they are man-made.115:5 They have mouths, but cannot speak,eyes, but cannot see,115:6 ears, but cannot hear,noses, but cannot smell,115:7 hands, but cannot touch,feet, but cannot walk.They cannot even clear their throats.115:8 Those who make them will end up like them,as will everyone who trusts in them.So rejecting God simply means you devote worship to something other than God (a statue, money, material things, etc..) and we reflect the image of what we worship. So when the OT says they "have eyes but cannot see, ears but cannot hear, mouths but cannot speak"...it's because those gods are worthless. Kind of like in Psalm 82 where God accuses the other gods of stumbling around in the dark and not knowing. "Those who trust them will end up like them".That's been my take on it, though I do like your point. Edited September 30, 2008 by Yekcidmij Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted October 1, 2008 Report Share Posted October 1, 2008 Well, I stand by what I said. Deuteronomy makes it rather clear that the covenant relationship was between YHWH and Israel and that Israel was to devote herself to YHWH alone."Good" Angels, who would presumabley be a part of God's Kingdom, were not to be worshiped, neither were dead spirits (Deut 18:9-14). Israel was not to go and worship and deovote herself to anyone but YHWH, not Moses, not Aaron, not Joshua, not any other Israelite, not even the other "hosts of heaven" (Deut 4:19), but YHWH. If you are a member of God's Kingdom, I still cannot worship you and worshiping you is not the same as worshiping God. The uniqueness in Deuteronomy is about YHWH Himself. He is unlike any other god.Now, if I were to reject the Word of YHWH, that would be a different can of worms to open. Rejecting YHWH's Word, is the same as rejecting Him. So, for a silly oversimplified example, if I say to my buddy, "Jesus says He's the only way to the Father", and my buddy says, "no, I don't believe it", then my buddy has not rejected me, he's rejected God's Word. Let us consider in our discussion the worship of Baal. Baal was the part mortal son of El (The Father and King of Heaven and all other divine citizens). To worship Baal one went to the temple that was designed as a theater there the epoch of Baal was reenacted. Baal was a good person and part g-d. He loved mankind and did many miracles for them. There is a human women whom he loves dearly called Annath. Baal learn of a plot by Mot (g-d of the underworld and departed spirits) and Yaman (g-d of the waters) to take over the world of men and to make mankind their slaves. Baal goes to his father El that gives him power over the weather – in particular thunder and lighting. With thunder bolts Baal can kill from a distance. Baal takes his new powers from El and meets Mot and Yaman in battle but Mot and Yaman have learned in advance of Baal and bribe a close human friend of Baal that betrays Baal and allows Mot and Yaman to kill Baal. Once he is pronounced dead Mot and Yaman celebrate and prepare for the final battle to take place the next day to subject mankind. In the meantime mankind prepares for the final hopeless battle which they know they will lose.Annath finds the body of Baal and watches over him through a dark and stormy night helping to nurse Baal back to life. At dawn Baal rises from the dead and becomes immortal and goes to assist mankind in the final battle with Mot and Yaman. He joins the battle is just the moment that the final efforts of mankind are about to be overcome. Baal defeats Mot and Yaman and sends them back to the sea and underworld forever. After the battle Baal returns to Annath and they celebrate victory.The reason I brought this up is to point out the most notorious worship of a false g-d of the Old Testament amounted to little more than our modern enjoyment of a James Bond type of action movie. In Israel, many believed that such activities could be enjoyed in harmony with the worship of the G-d of Israel. Also note the similarity to the story of Jesus born of Mary. Action figures of Baal were sold anciently and just having one in your home (regardless of your interest in Baal) was considered wrong by the ancient prophets.The point I want to make here is that any degree of not heading every word of a prophet anciently was considered worship of false g-ds and adherence to false prophets and teachers . The ancient covenant required that the appointed servant be accepted as the “mouth piece”, “arm” or “voice” of G-d.The Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rameumptom Posted October 1, 2008 Report Share Posted October 1, 2008 Something to consider is that Israelite worship changed extremely from the 1st to 2nd Temple periods. The First Temple period authorized worship of God in high places (bamah) on altars. The Tabernacle was still used centuries after Moses created it, even though the Temple was the new center piece of Israelite worship. Each of these places used the ancient temple ritual that reenacted a ceremony, which included a tree of life, the divine council, the wife of God/Wisdom, the Angel of God's Presence/Messiah, etc. These were lost in the 2nd Temple and Deuteronomist reforms. Yahweh's power and presence spread immensely, as he began to be viewed more and more as an international God that transcended boundaries. This is how Yahweh was able to be God of the Jews during the Diaspora in Babylon. During Elijah's time, Elijah caused the death of the priests of Baal, but did nothing against the priests of Asherah, the spouse of both Baal and Yahweh (and previously, of El). Why? Perhaps because Asherah was still viewed as Yahweh's wife by loyal Israelites, and was not kicked out of the pantheon until the Deuteronomists combined Yahweh and El into one solitary monotheistic God of Israel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiJolly Posted October 1, 2008 Report Share Posted October 1, 2008 Hey Ram, You been reading Bill Dever, or is it Margaret Barker? Both are pretty interesting. HiJolly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yekcidmij Posted October 1, 2008 Report Share Posted October 1, 2008 (edited) Something to consider is that Israelite worship changed extremely from the 1st to 2nd Temple periods. I don't think it changed as much as you think it did. You will probably cite Barker and I will probably just start citing others.Each of these places used the ancient temple ritual that reenacted a ceremony, which included a tree of life, the divine council, the wife of God/Wisdom, the Angel of God's Presence/Messiah, etc. I don't totally disagree. I do think the menorah symbolized the tree of life. I don't think Wisdom was ever viewed as the wife of God, especially since Jesus identified Himself as Wisdom. And I know Wisdom was a female personification, but Jesus still identified Himself as Wisdom. He also compared Himself to a mother hen and that didn't seem to phase Him. Paul also identifies Jesus as Wisdom. The deuterocanon identifies Wisdom with the Angel of YHWH. So while Barker and her readers might think that Widom was Asherah who later became the Virgin Mary, I fail to see any solid connection, just a failed theory. Jeremiah in particular slams the Jews for worshiping a godess, and Jeremiah didn't go into exile in Babylon, He went towards Alexandria. Both Jeremiah and Ezekiel were priests who slammed idol worship, which shoots a hole in the theory that non-priests were responsible for the supposed deuteronimist reforms. Micah, a pre-exile farmer, and Amos both blast Israel for worship of Asherah in particluar. So while I do see that Israel worshiped idols, since all of the above mention them doing it, Judges mentions them doing it, I also see that worshiping idols was not what Israel was supposed to do - hence the exile. Judges and the Samuels in particular mention the worship of Ashtaroth and all sorts of gods, it is clear from the same texts that that's not what was intended. I don't think the messiah was viewed as divine either. Saul was specifically called "anointed one" (mashiach) and he was not considered divine. "Messiah" simply was a title for the king. Cyrus was called "messiah" and was not considered, by Israel at least, to be divine. As far as I can tell from the text, the messiah was not identified with the angel of YHWH until Jesus. There are extrabiblical texts, Enoch in particular, that identify a "son of man" figure to be divine, but he is not identified as the messiah. There are other texts that speculate about Metatron, Michael, Melchizadek, Enoch, Moses, and Elijah, but as far as I can remember they never identify them as divine beings. These were lost in the 2nd Temple and Deuteronomist reforms. Yahweh's power and presence spread immensely, as he began to be viewed more and more as an international God that transcended boundaries. This is how Yahweh was able to be God of the Jews during the Diaspora in Babylon. YHWH was always viewed as transcending boundries. The Exodus from Egypt is a prime example. YHWH invaded Egypt, beat up on their gods, rescued Israel and went and conquered the territory of other Gods. From Genesis - the Samuels, Kings, and Chronicles, YHWH was never seen as a deity that was stuck inside a temple. As you rightle pointed out, He dwelt in a Tabernacle, and even then He was not limited to it as seen from the pillar of cloud/fire. When David wanted to build a Temple, YHWH's response was that a house cannot contain Him. The Ark itself was identified with God's chariot throne indicating that God was not limited to His Temple.Of couse you may always say that Gen - 2 Kings were just riddled with Deuteronimists reforms, but you must presuppose that on the text as far as I can tell. You have to take a rather cynical approach that every instance of YHWH being equated to El is a product of the exile and so earlier writings must therefore be redactions. Every instance in pre-exile lit. that identifies YHWH as a deity on the move and not limited to His territory, must be a redaction. Every pre-exile lit. that identifies YHWH as the only deity Israel was to worship, must be a redaction. While you may not deny this, the scholars who do hold to this theory usually deny that predictive prophecies are possible, so everything that resembles a prophecy is probably a redaction caused by events in the prophets world. It looks to me like a bag full of assumptions. Heck, Barker even admits she doesn't know what the original text said. Well, please pardon me if I don't jump on that bandwagon, but I jump on the bandwagon of scholars who know a little more about what the text said and says. Edited October 1, 2008 by Yekcidmij Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiJolly Posted October 2, 2008 Report Share Posted October 2, 2008 It looks to me like a bag full of assumptions. Heck, Barker even admits she doesn't know what the original text said. Well, please pardon me if I don't jump on that bandwagon, but I jump on the bandwagon of scholars who know a little more about what the text said and says.Any scholar worth their salt will freely admit that they don't know what the original text said. Honestly. Your bandwagon has no wheels, I'm afraid. HiJolly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deseretgov Posted October 2, 2008 Report Share Posted October 2, 2008 Let me see if I understand the LDS beliefs on this topic correctly:Human beings were born in heaven as the son or daughter of a god and goddess before they were born physically here on earth.Being born into this life here on earth is something that we agreed to in heaven. This life serves as a test and a means of obtaining exaltation one day to godhood.One achieves exaltation by living a life of obedience to Mormon teaching and practices. Those exalted to godhood will inhabit a planet and procreate spirit children.A supporting quote from Brigham Young would be this: "the Lord created you and me for the purpose of becoming Gods like himself...We are created to become Gods like unto our Father in heaven.” (Journal of Discourses, 3:93)Basically correct howevere I would point out that we cannot obtain our potential as God's children by obedience to Mormon Practices and teachings. Adam, Noah and Moses weren't Mormon, but I'm pretty sure they will will recieve exaltation. Jesus wasn't Mormon either. I wouls also prefer the deletion of the part "inhabit a planet." But as for us becoming gods. It never says that we will become equal with God, or that we will take His place, r that we will rule over His children. God will always be our God no matter what level of progression we reach. Just like a father is still a father even if his son becomes a father.So, having that all being said (and if I'm wrong, please correct me), how does the Mormon Church interpret Isaiah 43:10?I interpret it to mean in the context of God's relationship to us. God will always be our God. We will have no other Gods than Him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yekcidmij Posted October 2, 2008 Report Share Posted October 2, 2008 There are other texts that speculate about Metatron, Michael, Melchizadek, Enoch, Moses, and Elijah, but as far as I can remember they never identify them as divine beings. Correction: Metatron and Michael would be divine beings (but not Messiah's)I typed that thread up about 5 minutes before I hit the door to leave work. It was a little sloppier than it should have been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rameumptom Posted October 2, 2008 Report Share Posted October 2, 2008 Hey Ram, You been reading Bill Dever, or is it Margaret Barker? Both are pretty interesting. HiJollyBoth, plus several others that are now considering these things. Of course, Kevin Christensen's stuff on Margaret Barker is pretty good, as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rameumptom Posted October 2, 2008 Report Share Posted October 2, 2008 I don't think it changed as much as you think it did. You will probably cite Barker and I will probably just start citing others.I don't totally disagree. I do think the menorah symbolized the tree of life. I don't think Wisdom was ever viewed as the wife of God, especially since Jesus identified Himself as Wisdom. And I know Wisdom was a female personification, but Jesus still identified Himself as Wisdom. He also compared Himself to a mother hen and that didn't seem to phase Him. Paul also identifies Jesus as Wisdom. The deuterocanon identifies Wisdom with the Angel of YHWH. So while Barker and her readers might think that Widom was Asherah who later became the Virgin Mary, I fail to see any solid connection, just a failed theory. Jeremiah in particular slams the Jews for worshiping a godess, and Jeremiah didn't go into exile in Babylon, He went towards Alexandria. Both Jeremiah and Ezekiel were priests who slammed idol worship, which shoots a hole in the theory that non-priests were responsible for the supposed deuteronimist reforms. Micah, a pre-exile farmer, and Amos both blast Israel for worship of Asherah in particluar. So while I do see that Israel worshiped idols, since all of the above mention them doing it, Judges mentions them doing it, I also see that worshiping idols was not what Israel was supposed to do - hence the exile. Judges and the Samuels in particular mention the worship of Ashtaroth and all sorts of gods, it is clear from the same texts that that's not what was intended. Friedman, in his book, Who Wrote the Bible?, stated that there were two groups of priests: those of Aaron and those of Moses, who battled it out for preeminence in David's court and in the future temple. David had two priests, one from each group.Solomon chose the priest of Aaron to be his counsel, and exiled the priest of Moses to outside of Jerusalem. This caused a major division and continual battle until the Diaspora over who rightfully belonged in the temple.While Jeremiah condemned Asherah, or the mother in heaven, as that worship had replaced Yahweh rather than supplemented it, he also condemned the priests of the temple. Instead of praising the temple sacrifices, he brought forth the children of Rekhab and proclaimed them as true followers of God. The Rekhabites were desert dwellers, who had left Jerusalem in previous generations to worship God as did the Abraham and the patriarchs, rather than focused on the centralized temple/city worship of Jerusalem. Friedman suggests that Jeremiah was a priest of Moses, standing up to the Aaronic priests in the temple.Interestingly, Jeremiah's focus falls in line with Lehi and Nephi. Lehi restored the worship on altars in the wilderness/high places. His vision of the Tree of Life restored practices and beliefs lost from the First Temple, prior to the Deuteronomist reforms (Aaronic priests). Lehi's departure into the wilderness made him akin to the Rekhabites in many ways. And the focus of Yahweh's consort, Asherah, was placed back into its proper place in Lehi's dream: as the mother of God.Please note that Lehi's Christology is different from Nephi's Christology as he describes his 30 years after leaving Jerusalem, having rejected the ways of the Jews. And Lehi's fits in classically with Jeremiah's views and issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yekcidmij Posted October 2, 2008 Report Share Posted October 2, 2008 Friedman, in his book, Who Wrote the Bible?, stated that there were two groups of priests: those of Aaron and those of Moses, who battled it out for preeminence in David's court and in the future temple. David had two priests, one from each group.Solomon chose the priest of Aaron to be his counsel, and exiled the priest of Moses to outside of Jerusalem. This caused a major division and continual battle until the Diaspora over who rightfully belonged in the temple.While Jeremiah condemned Asherah, or the mother in heaven, as that worship had replaced Yahweh rather than supplemented it, he also condemned the priests of the temple. Instead of praising the temple sacrifices, he brought forth the children of Rekhab and proclaimed them as true followers of God. The Rekhabites were desert dwellers, who had left Jerusalem in previous generations to worship God as did the Abraham and the patriarchs, rather than focused on the centralized temple/city worship of Jerusalem. Friedman suggests that Jeremiah was a priest of Moses, standing up to the Aaronic priests in the temple. Interesting. I'll have to check out Friedman. He was already on my list of books to read, as he comes reccommended, but since my list is rather long, he just hasn't landed on my shelf yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rameumptom Posted October 3, 2008 Report Share Posted October 3, 2008 In the Exagoge of Moses (IIRC), Moses ascends into heaven, where God sits on his throne. God stands up and has Moses sit on the throne and receive of the glory. In this instance, Moses also becomes a divine being. Other ancient texts have Adam as a divine being, whom the angels are to worship. Of course, Enoch becomes Metatron, so he isa divine being. Many ancient texts show that there may be more than one messiah. The new Qumran Scroll in Stone mentions the Messiah son of Joseph/Ephraim, for example (as do other early texts), who is the suffering servant. This differs from the Messiah, son of David/Judah, who is a royal king that destroys the physical enemies of the people. Some believe these are two representations of the same being (i.e., Christ), while others consider them separate beings. Interestingly, while the Jews sought a Davidic Messiah, Christ represented his mortal ministry more as the Ephraim/Suffering Messiah. Margaret Barker states that the Messiah was tied anciently to the Angel of the Presence. This means that the angel that wrestled with Jacob was the Messiah. The angel/Lord that visited with Abraham and discussed the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was this same being. And the early Christians viewed the suffering Messiah/Angel of the Presence/Jehovah as being Jesus; who would come in the future as the great Davidic King and Messiah to rule over the earth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yekcidmij Posted October 3, 2008 Report Share Posted October 3, 2008 (edited) Many ancient texts show that there may be more than one messiah. The new Qumran Scroll in Stone mentions the Messiah son of Joseph/Ephraim, for example (as do other early texts), who is the suffering servant. This differs from the Messiah, son of David/Judah, who is a royal king that destroys the physical enemies of the people. Of course. Traces of this are also found in the Mishnah and Gemara. Ben Joseph was to be a priestly figure who was to lead his followers to Jerusalem, overcome the evil forces and restablish temple worship, but then there would be a war where he would also suffer and be killed at the hands of his enemies. Then Messiah ben David would come along and resurrect him and lead the final battle against the forces of evil. That is one line of thinking about the messiah, and I'm not sure that all the details found in the Mishnah and Gemara are also found in the DSS, I'll have to check later, I can't remember for sure.b. SukkotWhat was the mourning for? R. Dosa and the rabbis differ: One holds that it was for the Messiah the son of Joseph, who was killed; and one holds that it was for the evil angel, who was killed. It would be right according to one who holds that it was for the Messiah the son of Joseph, because he explains as supporting him the passage [Zech. xii. 10]: "And they will look up toward me (for every one) whom they have thrust through, and they will lament for him, as one lamenteth for an only son, and weep bitterly for him, as one weepeth bitterly for the firstborn"; but according to one who says that it was for the death of the evil angel, why mourning? must it not be, on the contrary, an enjoyment? Why then weeping? This can be explained as R. Jehudah lectured: In the future the Holy One, blessed be He, will bring the evil angel and slaughter him in the presence of both the upright and the wicked. To the former he will look like a high mountain, and to the latter he will look like a thin hair. Both, however, will cry. The upright will cry, saying: How could we overpower such a high mountain? and the wicked will cry, saying: How could we not subdue such a thin hair? And also the Holy One, blessed be He, will join them in wondering, as it is written [Zech. viii. 6]: "Thus hath said the Lord of hosts: If itshould be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in those days, should it also be marvellous in my eyesThe rabbis taught: The Messiah b. David, who (as we hope) will appear in the near future, the Holy One, blessed be He, will say to him: Ask something of me and I will give it to thee, as it is written [Ps. ii. 7-8]: "I will announce the decree . . . Ask it of me, and I will give," etc. But as the Messiah b. David will have seen that the Messiah b. Joseph who preceded him was killed, he will say before the Lord: Lord of the Universe, I will ask nothing of Thee but life. And the Lord will answer: This was prophesied already for thee by thy father David [Ps. xxi. 5]: "Life hath he asked of thee, thou gavest it to him." Another thought was that Messiah would come and defeat the enemies in battle. The sufferer of Isaiah 53 was thought to be the enemies of the messiah, and the suffering was inflicted by messiah. Targum IsaiahCHAPTER LIII. 1 Who hath believed this our report? and to whom is now the power of the arm of the Lord revealed? 2 The righteous shall be great before Him, behold, like branches that bud ; and like a tree which sends forth its roots by the streams of water, thus shall the generation of the just multiply in the land, which hath need of Him. 3 His visage shall not be the visage of a common person, neither His fear the fear of a plebeianbut a holy brightness shall be His brightness, that every one who seeth Him shall contemplate Him. 4 Although He shall be in contempt ; yet He shall cut off the glory of all the wicked, they shall be weak and wretched. Lo, we are in contempt and not esteemed, as a man of pain and appointed to sickness, and as if He had removed the face of His Shekinah from us. 5 Therefore He shall pray for our sins, and our iniquities for His sake shall be forgiven us; for we are considered crushed, smitten of the Lord, and afflicted. 6 He shall build the house of the sanctuary, which has been profaned on account of our sins ; He was delivered over on account of our iniquities, and through His doctrine peace shall be multiplied upon us, and through the teaching of His words our sins shall be forgiven us.7 All we like sheep have been scattered, every one of us has turned to his own way ; it pleased the Lord to forgive the sins of all of us for His sake. 8 He shall pray and He shall be answered, yea, before He shall open His mouth, He shall be heard; He shall deliver over the mighty of the nations as a lamb to the slaughter, and like a sheep before her shearers is dumb, none shall in His presence open his mouth, or speak a word. Another line was to think that Isaiah 53 applied to Israel, and Israel was the sufferer.Even more speculation was on how messiah would arrive. If Israel was sinful and unworthy, he would come lowly on a donkey, if they were faithful, he would come as Davidic warrior.The popular thinking of the Pharisees seems to be that the Messiah would come as a Davidic warrior who would defeat the enemies in battle. Essenes took a 2 messiah approach. Sadducees rejected the prophets. Zealots seemed to take the more Davidic warrior approach.(see also b. Sanhedrin, 4 Ezra)Some believe these are two representations of the same being (i.e., Christ), while others consider them separate beings. Interestingly, while the Jews sought a Davidic Messiah, Christ represented his mortal ministry more as the Ephraim/Suffering Messiah. Of course. I think both Messiah ben Joseph and ben David can both be tied to Jesus in the gospels. And I don't see the concept of Messiah begin to be developed until just before the exile when a few prophets (Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Isaiah in particular) were aware of the problem with the throne of David. Even then it wasn't developed fully even in the first century as there was no unifed concept of messiah at the time.Margaret Barker states that the Messiah was tied anciently to the Angel of the Presence. This means that the angel that wrestled with Jacob was the Messiah. The angel/Lord that visited with Abraham and discussed the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was this same being. And the early Christians viewed the suffering Messiah/Angel of the Presence/Jehovah as being Jesus; who would come in the future as the great Davidic King and Messiah to rule over the earth. I tend to agree with Barker on this one, though I don't think the connection between messiah and the angel of YHWH was made until after Jesus' resurrection. I think messiah was just simply a title for the king (eg. Saul and Cyrus were "mashiach", neither of which were tied to the Angel of YHWH). But I do see 2 YHWH's in the OT, following a similiar approach of Heiser. The Angel of YHWH is an extremely interesting theme to chase through the OT and it's interesting to see how NT writers tie this figure to Jesus. Edited October 3, 2008 by Yekcidmij Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rameumptom Posted October 3, 2008 Report Share Posted October 3, 2008 More on the Suffering Messiah/Son of Joseph comes from an article at Biblical Archaeological Review, which gives more info on "Gabriel's Revelation" which is the new DSS on stone.A new inscription, recently published in BAR for the first time in English,a may hold the key to unlocking a new understanding of some of the history of Christian and Jewish messianism.Written on a stone 3 feet tall, the new text has many of the characteristics of a fragmentary Dead Sea Scroll, including being poorly preserved. Based on the stance and form of the letters, the distinguished decipherers of the inscription (Ada Yardeni and Binyamin Elizur) date it to the late first century B.C.E. or early first century C.E.Yardeni describes the text as “a literary composition similar to Biblical prophecies.” From a word or a phrase here and there, she notes that the text is apocalyptic in character and comes from a group that believes in a Davidic Messiah. She calls the text “Gabriel’s Revelation,” or Hazon Gabriel in Hebrew.The Dead Sea Scrolls have, in general, revealed that many of the same religious concepts and beliefs found in Christianity are also found in the scrolls, often appearing first in the scrolls and thereafter surfacing in early Christianity. I believe this is also true of the messianism of “Gabriel’s Revelation.”As we shall see, “Gabriel’s Revelation” has a great deal to tell us about a different kind of messiah—a Messiah son of Joseph, who is different from the Biblical concept of a Davidic Messiah.The tradition of the “Messiah son of Joseph” and his death first appears in the Babylonian Talmud (Sukkah 52a).The rabbis taught: The Messiah ben David, who (as we hope) will appear in the near future, the Holy One, blessed be He, will say to him: Ask something of me and I will give it to thee, as it is written [Psalm 2:7–8]: “I will announce the decree ... Ask it of me, and I will give,” etc. But as the Messiah ben David will have seen that the Messiah ben Joseph who preceded him was killed, he will say before the Lord: “Lord of the Universe, I will ask nothing of Thee but life.” And the Lord will answer: “This was prophesied already for thee by thy father David [Psalm 21:5]: ‘Life hath he asked of thee, thou gavest it to him.’ ”According to the seventh-century apocalyptic text known as Sefer Zerubabel, the “Messiah son of Joseph” was killed by the wicked “Armilus” and was further resurrected by the Messiah son of David and the Prophet Elijah.1These traditions are clearly post-Christian and most scholars regard this Jewish tradition as an impact of Christianity on Judaism. Some evidence, however, indicates that the figure of “Messiah son of Joseph” is much older. In some texts from around the turn of the era, we encounter Joseph as a son of God who atones for the sins of others with his suffering. For example, in Joseph and Aseneth, written between 100 B.C.E. and 115 C.E. Joseph is described as “son of God” (6:3, 5, 13:13). Joseph is also called “God’s firstborn son” (18:11, 21:4, 23:10).In another book from the Second Temple period, The Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs, the Testament of Benjamin connects Joseph and the figure of the Suffering Servant in Isaiah 52–53. In this testament, Jacob says to Joseph:“ ‘In you will be fulfilled the heavenly prophecy, which says that the spotless one will be defiled by lawless men and the sinless one will die for the sake of impious men’ ”2 (emphasis supplied).These citations suggest that the designation of the suffering Messiah as the “son of Joseph” goes back to sources from the Second Temple period.3In another late Midrash, Pesikta Rabbati, the Messiah Ephraim (a son of Joseph) is created. As to him, the sins of others “will bend you down under a yoke of iron.” The Holy One, blessed be he, asks him if he is willing to endure this suffering. Messiah Ephraim, son of Joseph, asks how long his suffering will last. Seven years, the Holy One replies. After more dialogue, the Messiah Ephraim says: “Master of the Universe, with joy in my soul and gladness in my heart I take this suffering upon myself, provided not one person in Israel perish; that not only those who are alive be saved in my days, but also those who are dead ...”4In this passage from the Pesikta Rabbati, the son of Joseph (here Ephraim) also appears as the Messiah identified as the Suffering Servant in Isaiah.Several scholars have argued that these late passages should be traced to Christian circles.5 A leading rabbinic scholar, Saul Lieberman, has argued otherwise.6 I have agreed with Lieberman.7 I believe “Gabriel’s Revelation,” now published in BAR, supports the view that the tradition of the Messiah son of Joseph who is killed goes back to the late first century B.C.E. or the early first century C.E. Although much of the text of “Gabriel’s Revelation” has not been preserved or is difficult to read, enough is there to make these points.As Yardeni notes in her BAR article, despite the difficulty in reading the text, it involves “messianic groups.” The characters it mentions are “clearly apocalyptic figures.” Among them are two we have already encountered in this article: David and Ephraim. In “Gabriel’s Revelation,” the Lord addresses David, asking him to request of Ephraim that he place a sign: “My servant David, ask of Ephraim [that he p]lace the sign ...” (Line 16–17). Unfortunately, the nature of the sign is not specified, but it seems to be the sign of salvation. However, the fact that David is sent by God to request Ephraim to place the sign may attest that Ephraim has superior rank. He, and not David, is the key person who is asked to place the sign; David is only the messenger!The expression “My servant David” of course appears often in the Bible as a term of an eschatological leader (see Ezekiel 34:23, 24, 37:24, 25). And, as we have noted, in the Bible, Ephraim is the son of Joseph. The names “my servant David” and “Ephraim” mentioned in “Gabriel’s Revelation” are apparently parallel, respectively, to the titles “Messiah son of David” and “Messiah son of Joseph” in the Talmud, to which I have already called attention. And “Ephraim” is the name of the Messiah in Pesikta Rabbati, when he is said to suffer in order to atone for Israel. Thus, in this new text on stone, we have the earliest reference to Ephraim as a messianic figure (although in Jeremiah 31:20, the Lord tells Ephraim: “Truly, Ephraim is a dear son to me” [see also Hosea 11:1–8]).It is also interesting that this new text seems to predict that in three days the evil will be defeated by the righteous. They read as follows: “By three days you shall know that thus said the Lord of Hosts, the God of Israel, the evil has been broken by righteousness” (Lines 19–21).There is more: Line 80 begins with the phrase “In three days.” This is followed by another word that the editors could not read. Then comes the phrase “I, Gabriel.” I believe that this “illegible” word is actually legible. It is the word ḥayeh, “live” (חאיה). Gabriel the archangel is giving orders to someone to “live”: “In three days, you shall live.” In other words, in three days, you shall return to life (be resurrected).There follow two additional words that are also difficult to read. The letters are not easy to make out, but I believe the first word begins with a ג ( gimel ) and a ו (vav). The next word is equally difficult. The letter ל (lamed) is quite legible, and the letter before it seems to be an ע (‘ayin). I believe the sentence can be reconstructed as follows: “In three days, live, I, Gabriel, command you.” (Leshloshet yamin ḥayeh, ani Gavriel, gozer alekha.) Ada Yardeni has since agreed with this reading of ḥayeh and with the translation “In three days, live, I, Gabriel ...”The archangel is ordering someone to rise from the dead within three days.Gabriel is of course well known from the Book of Daniel, as well as the Gospel of Luke. In Daniel, Gabriel appears to the prophet in an apocalyptic vision (Daniel 8:13–19). In the famous annunciation scene in the Gospel of Luke, the angel Gabriel tells Mary that she will bear a son who will be called Son of the Most High:“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there will be no end” (Luke 1:31–33).According to the genealogical lists in Matthew 1:1–16 and Luke 3:23–38, Jesus is a descendant of David. It is said explicitly about Joseph, Jesus’ father, that he was “of the house and lineage of David” (Luke 2:4; see also 1:27, 32; Matthew 1:20).Jesus is also referred to as the “Son of David” several times elsewhere in the Gospels (Mark 10:46, 11:10; Matthew 9:27, 12:23, 15:22, 20:30, 21:9; Luke 18:38), and subsequently elsewhere in the New Testament (Romans 1:3; 2 Timothy 2:8; Revelation 5:5, 22:16). And the entire Nativity story (Matthew 2:1–18; Luke 2:1–29) is designed to emphasize Jesus as a “Son of David.” According to the Nativity accounts, Jesus, like King David, was born in Bethlehem. However, Jesus himself never refers to the Messiah as the “Son of David,” and he does not mention having any link with the Davidic line.In “Gabriel’s Revelation,” we see that another messiah—Ephraim, or the “Messiah son of Joseph”—was known already in the late first century B.C.E. The “Ephraim” of “Gabriel’s Revelation” was probably based on Biblical verses depicting him as the suffering Son of God (see Jeremiah 31:17–20; Hosea 11:1–8). And the setting of “Gabriel’s Revelation” reflects elements of death and bloodshed.The messianic figure of David is traditionally represented as involving bravery, military skill and triumph. The figure of Ephraim, or the Messiah son of Joseph, symbolizes a very different and new kind of messianism. Ephraim is a messiah of suffering and death.This may shed new light on what has been a puzzling Gospel tradition. In parallel passages in the Synoptic Gospelsb (Mark 12:35–37; Matthew 22:41–46; Luke 20:41–44), Jesus is teaching on the Temple Mount. Surprisingly, he rejects the idea that the Messiah is the son of David: “How can the scribes say,” Jesus asks, “that Christ is the son of David?” (Mark 12:35).To demonstrate that the Messiah is not the son of David, Jesus quotes Psalm 110, attributed in the Hebrew Bible to David himself. As the text of Mark (12:36) recites, David speaks in the psalm: “David himself, inspired by the Holy Spirit, declared ...” Jesus then recites a passage from the psalm:“The Lord said to my Lord,Sit at my right hand,till I put thy enemies under thy feet.”Jesus then uses this passage to prove his point: “David himself calls him [the Messiah] ‘Lord,’ so how is he his son?” That is, David speaks of the Messiah as “my Lord,” rather than as “my son.” The Messiah therefore cannot be a son of David. Using Psalm 110 as his proof text, Jesus here refutes the scribes’ view that Christ, the Messiah, should be a son or descendant of David.This seems strange in light of the fact that, as I noted earlier, in both Matthew and Luke, Jesus’ lineage is specifically traced to David. I am inclined to regard the passage in which Jesus quotes Psalm 110 as a historically reliable passage in which Jesus rejects the view that the Messiah will be a descendant of David. Not only do versions of this incident appear in all three Synoptic Gospels, but the very fact that it runs counter to the genealogies of Jesus suggests that this contradictory version must be authentic. Otherwise, the authors of the Gospels would not have included something that so blatantly clashes with their frequent reference to Jesus as the Son of David.8Some scholars have suggested that Jesus wished to claim that the Messiah is not merely a son of David but rather has a superior status—possibly that of the Son of God. However, if this were the case, we would have expected Jesus to anchor his claim in Psalm 2:7, “You are my son, today I have begotten you,” rather than on the first verse of Psalm 110, which makes no explicit reference to the Messiah as the Son of God.In citing Psalm 110, Jesus may well be seeking to dispel the prevalent expectation of a triumphal messiah, the traditional “son of David.”His ideal messianic model is different. As with the Messiah Ephraim, son of Joseph, Jesus’ Messiah involves suffering and death.The new inscription, “Gabriel’s Revelation,” suggests that this different kind of Messiah was evolving at the turn of the era—different from the Messiah son of David. Instead of a militant Messiah, it envisions a Messiah who suffered, died and rose. Jesus also understood the Messiah to be a Son of Joseph.Like in “Gabriel’s Revelation,” also in the saying of Jesus, David is secondary to the other Messiah. In Nazareth, Jesus was known as the “son of Joseph” (Luke 4:22; John 6:42). Thus it is quite possible that Jesus identified himself as the Messiah “Ephraim,” the son of Joseph who is mentioned in “Gabriel’s Revelation.”9The link above has the actual translation and a photo of the stone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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