We can become gods?

[Yekcidmij]

More on the Suffering Messiah/Son of Joseph comes from an article at Biblical Archaeological Review, which gives more info on "Gabriel's Revelation" which is the new DSS on stone.

The link above has the actual translation and a photo of the stone.

I found it interesting after first learning about Messiah b. Joseph that we find this in the gospel of John:

1:45 Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the law, and the prophets also wrote about – Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”

And I wonder if John intended to highlight that Jesus of Nazareth was "son of Joseph" especially since just a few verses he identified him as messiah. And why would Philip be stating that Jesus of Nazareth was "son of Joseph"? Philip was from Bethesda, not Nazareth, so he had little connection with Jesus' father, Joseph.

I don't know though.

Edited October 3, 2008 by Yekcidmij

[rameumptom]

I've also pondered that. While saying, "Jesus, son of Joseph" would help narrow down who he was, the reality is Joseph and Jesus were two of the most popular names for men in Judea at that time.

It does give us an interesting tie.

I also think on Zechariah's treatment of the current and future priest Joshua and his accomplishments. Most do not realize that the names Joshua and Jesus are basically the same, from Yehoshua in Hebrew. It is very likely that we get a prophecy of Jesus from a priest in Zechariah's time, not unlike Joseph Smith's prophecy in 2 Nephi 3.

[Yekcidmij]

I've also pondered that. While saying, "Jesus, son of Joseph" would help narrow down who he was, the reality is Joseph and Jesus were two of the most popular names for men in Judea at that time.

It does give us an interesting tie.

Yea, since Bethesda is north of the Sea of Galilee and Nazareth is SW of the Sea, I'm not sure why Philip would act as if he knew Joseph husband of Mary.

The title "son of Joseph" also only appears twice in the new testament. Here and in John 6:42, where it seems like it might be used as a bit of irony. After Jesus says he has "come down from heaven" the Jews in the area exclaim "isn't this the son of Joseph"? Kind of an ironic statement if John is aware of Messiah b. Joseph traditions. And since Jesus was commonly called "Jesus of Nazareth" and only in these 2 places do we find "son of Joseph", it may be that John is demonstrating a high degree of awareness of messianic concepts.

I also think on Zechariah's treatment of the current and future priest Joshua and his accomplishments. Most do not realize that the names Joshua and Jesus are basically the same, from Yehoshua in Hebrew. It is very likely that we get a prophecy of Jesus from a priest in Zechariah's time.

I see a connection between both Joshua and Zarubbabel, though nothing linguistically with Zarub.

[Old Tex]

Let me see if I understand the LDS beliefs on this topic correctly:

Human beings were born in heaven as the son or daughter of a god and goddess before they were born physically here on earth.

Being born into this life here on earth is something that we agreed to in heaven. This life serves as a test and a means of obtaining exaltation one day to godhood.

One achieves exaltation by living a life of obedience to Mormon teaching and practices. Those exalted to godhood will inhabit a planet and procreate spirit children.

A supporting quote from Brigham Young would be this: "the Lord created you and me for the purpose of becoming Gods like himself...We are created to become Gods like unto our Father in heaven.” (Journal of Discourses, 3:93)

So, having that all being said (and if I'm wrong, please correct me), how does the Mormon Church interpret Isaiah 43:10?

Quote:

Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

One thing that makes it easier to understand is to remember who God is usually speaking to (or about) in the Old Testament. Here He is referring to the House of Israel with whom He has a covenant.

He is reminding them that according to the covenant that He has with them that He is their God and that their covenant is with Him and Him only. No other God exists as far as they are concerned.

This is a statement specifically directed at those with whom He has a covenant and is not meant to be a dialog concerning those eternal individuals who may dwell in the eternal realms, no matter how many there may be.

I find that many times non LDS folks can't see things like LDS do because they try to understand LDS while holding to their own understanding of their sources. One must be able to put their own view in "neutral" long enough to be able to see through LDS understanding and then it will become appearent to them.

I hope this comes out in a readable format..............I'm not familiar with posting on this site.

[mnn727]

Many others shared the same belief, Here are some old quotes from the "Early Church Faters" followed by some quotes from some prominant modern Protestant Ministers.

St. Irenaeus in the 2nd century about 140 years after the crucifixion:

"If the Word became a man, It was so men may become gods."(1)

Also in the second century, Saint Clement of Alexandria wrote, "Yea, I say, the Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god." (2)

In the 2nd century also , Saint Justin Martyr insisted that in the beginning men "were made like God, free from suffering and death," and that they are thus "deemed worthy of becoming gods and of having power to become sons of the highest." (3)

In the 4th century Saint Athanasius (a tireless foe of heresy & the man for whom the Athanasian creed is named) also stated: "The Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods...Just as the Lord, putting on the body, became a man, so also we men are both deified through his flesh, and henceforth inherit everlasting life." (4)

Athanasius also stated,

"He became man that we might be made divine." (5)

And finally, Saint Augustine himself states: "But he himself that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. 'For he has given them power to become sons of God' (John 1:12) If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods." (6)

References:

(1) Irenaeus, Against Heresies, bk 5, pref.

(2) Clement of Alexandra, Exhortation to the Greeks, 1.

(3) Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 124

(4) Athanasius, Against the Arians, 1.39, 3.34

(5) Athanasius, De Inc., 54

(6) Augustine, One the Psalms, 50.2

Paul Crouch of the Trinity Broadcasting Network says, "I am a little god. I have His name. I am one with Him. I'm in a covenant relation. I am a little god. Critics be gone." (7)

Robert Tilton says, "Man is a God kind of creature. Originally you were designed to be as a god in this world. Man was designed or created by God to be the god of this world. (8)

Kenneth Copeland says, "You don't have a god in you. You are one!" Additionally, he writes, "that man had total authority to rule as a god over every living creature on earth." (9)

C.S. Lewis, a great theologian says, "It is a serious thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses, to remember that the dullest and most uninteresting person you can talk to may one day be a creature which, if you saw it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship." (10)

Lewis also states: "The Son of God became a man to enable men to become sons of God."

References:

(7) Paul Crouch, "Praise the Lord." TBN 7 July 1986.

(8) Robert Tilton, "God's Laws of Success (Dallas: Word of Faith, 1983) pp. 170-71.

(9) Kenneth Copeland, "The Force of Love: (Fort Worth: Kenneth Copeland, n.d.), tape BCC-56.

[abqfriend]

Great quotes by some early Catholic leaders. Just because you may find a quote by an early or late Church leader of the Catholic Church-does not mean they are the doctrine of the Catholic Church as defined in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

If you wish current understanding of the Catholic Church-go to the source.

English Translation of the Catechism of the Catholic Church with Search Utility

Good quotes-but recognize the limits of them taken out of context of the entire writings of the given Church leader.

-Carol

Many others shared the same belief, Here are some old quotes from the "Early Church Faters" followed by some quotes from some prominant modern Protestant Ministers.

[BenRaines]

Quoting Robert Tilton? Now that is laughable. Have you seen him? Have you read about him? As far as I am concerned his is right up there with Jim Baker and Tammi Faye if not worse.

Ben Raines

[abqfriend]

I do not think that

Irenaeus,Clement of Alexandra, Justin Martyr,Athanasius or Augustine

would like to be linked with Tilton, Copeland or Croch.

CS Lewis was a great writer -and did not claim to be a theologian or religious leader.

His books "Mere Christianity" and "The Problem with Pain" are my favorites.

Quoting Robert Tilton? Now that is laughable. Have you seen him? Have you read about him? As far as I am concerned his is right up there with Jim Baker and Tammi Faye if not worse.

Ben Raines

[Cameron]

I don't blame people for freaking out when they hear some of our LDS beliefs such as this one. The reason they do so is because they've never heard it before. However, I think one reason this makes people uneasy is because when they think 'GOD,' they think superman and unlimited power. It's not really about that. It's about our Dad who wants us to grow and learn and become like Him, because by learning to obey His eternal laws we will receive what the scriptures call a 'fulness of joy.'

[Interested]

Hm.... I hear that Mormons do not believe in the Trinitarian doctrine. If they do not, then why identify themselves as Christian even if they share the same Judaic Christian doctrines otherwise?

I mention this in this thread because it ties in with the Godhead I mentioned to a Mormon friend of mine. Why? Yes... I can understand that Mormons accept Jesus, but I do not understand if they accept Jesus in the same fashion as Evangelicals.

[Islander]

Hm.... I hear that Mormons do not believe in the Trinitarian doctrine. If they do not, then why identify themselves as Christian even if they share the same Judaic Christian doctrines otherwise?

I mention this in this thread because it ties in with the Godhead I mentioned to a Mormon friend of mine. Why? Yes... I can understand that Mormons accept Jesus, but I do not understand if they accept Jesus in the same fashion as Evangelicals.

Hello Interested:

I suggest you spend a while reading around the forum. There are hundreds of threads dealing with this issue since just about every one that comes to the site that is not a member of the LDS Church has very similar questions. Just look around.:)

[jo1952]

Hi Interested:

I was raised as a Lutheran. When I was 13 taking my Confirmation class, the first test we were given was "What is a Christian". Surprisingly, out of a class of 33 I was the only one who got the correct answer, according to my Pastor. My answer was "someone who believes in Christ". That was back in 1965 (please do NOT do the math....). When I was 21 I joined a multi-denominational singing group which performed a musical to various church congregations in So. California. Our message was to come to Christ. That was my first real contact with "Mormons" as there were several in the group, along with Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopaleans, etc. We all got along very well and there was no doubt in our minds we were all Christians because we all believed in the same Christ. That was in 1973. In 1974 I converted to the LDS Church. Over the years the definition of Christian changed. I am no longer considered a Christian by most other Christian religions not only because of the Trinitarian doctrine; but also because many of the denominations believe I do not believe in the same Christ they believe in. I still believe in the same Christ I always did.....it is the world that has changed their criteria. I hope this helps. It is what I experienced first hand. Even the Trinitarians admit their concept of the Godhead is the same among the various denominations, and though it is described in only a few words, it is very complex in establishing their support of the conclusion they have reached.

LDS believe in Heavenly Father, His only begotten son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. They are one in purpose; but are separate.

[a-train]

So God is Almighty and omnipotent, and He can create anything ex nihilo, but He can't create other gods?

If we don't believe that God can create a planet and put a man thereon and give him all dominion over it, then we don't believe the Bible (Gen 1:26).

Isaiah quoted God saying: "before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me." (Isaiah 43:10) But what about DURING Gods existence? Certainly no God was formed before Him, because He is Eternal and thus no creation has pre-dated Him. Certainly no God can be created after Him because He is Eternal and thus nothing will post-date Him. Thus ALL creation is formed contemporary with God.

Furthermore, who was it that said: "before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me"? The clue is in the next verse, for He continued saying: "I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour." Who said it? JESUS OF NAZARETH, the SAVIOUR.

Now if we account the formation of the infant body in the womb of the Virgin Mother of our LORD as the formation of this Being who spoke to Isaiah, then we have committed a serious error. For Indeed the Saviour Jesus is the Great Jehovah which spoke to Isaiah and whose hand created this earth and placed our first parents thereon. He is Eternal and before Him there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Him.

And yet, He was born of the Virgin. Just as he said: "I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." (John 6:51)

LDS theology poses no opposition to this notion. This IS LDS theology.

-a-train

[bytor2112]

Hm.... I hear that Mormons do not believe in the Trinitarian doctrine. If they do not, then why identify themselves as Christian even if they share the same Judaic Christian doctrines otherwise?

I mention this in this thread because it ties in with the Godhead I mentioned to a Mormon friend of mine. Why? Yes... I can understand that Mormons accept Jesus, but I do not understand if they accept Jesus in the same fashion as Evangelicals.

The same fashion in that..... we believe that he is the only begotten son of God and drank from the Father's bitter cup and at Gethsemenee and at Golgotha paid the price for the sins of mankind on conditions of repentance. Because Joseph Smith saw God the Father and Jesus Christ, we have a better understanding of the Godhead. Namely that the Godhead consists of God the Father.....an exalted personage of flesh and bone....Jesus Christ, the only begotten son.....an exalted personage of flesh and bone and the Holy Ghost..... an exalted personage of Spirit and they are one God.......one in purpose......not one in substance.

[Interested]

This might bother me if I didn't believe the written word of God as being God inspired and all we really need, but since I do, I must point out Jesus said if someone says that they have seen him, then those who have heard the speaker talk about Jesus returning must not believe it.

[bytor2112]

This might bother me if I didn't believe the written word of God as being God inspired and all we really need, but since I do, I must point out Jesus said if someone says that they have seen him, then those who have heard the speaker talk about Jesus returning must not believe it.

We also believe the written word of God to be inspired....but not limited to the Bible. We believe that God still comunicates with his children. We have a living Prophet on the earth today and have since Joseph Smith opened the last and final gospel dispensation.

[Interested]

Well, I beleive God communicates with us through the Holy Spirit. :)

Different. :)

[bytor2112]

Well, I beleive God communicates with us through the Holy Spirit. :)

Different. :)

No.....we believe that as well.

[Hemidakota]

So God is Almighty and omnipotent, and He can create anything ex nihilo, but He can't create other gods?

-a-train

If that is the case, GOD created all intelligences and matter.

[Interested]

Why would an omnipotent god want other literal gods in his company?

[Nappaljarri]

Why would an omnipotent god want other literal gods in his company?

You are asking from a human perspective. The definition of God in our church does not mean proud. An omnipotent God wants to have other literal gods around him, because they are all his family.

[Interested]

If God can not change, why would he love us anymore for being gods than being human? We could be just as important as family members by being human. Could we not?

[Hemidakota]

We will become like HIM, being Omnipotent. That is HIS desire and not our will.

[Interested]

Alright. I'll apologize once I become omnipotent. :)

[Hemidakota]

We may desire to be with HIM but many here will not be able too reside in that sphere.