mormon prophet and catholic pope

[Guest ceeboo]

Nice thing about an open canon, ceeboo. Joseph was not excommunicated, and for good reason. I suppose you disagree.

And no, Joseph will not judge me, or you, regardless.

HiJolly

Hello again HiJolly,

Agree about what, an open canon or JS was not excommunicated ?:)

Peace,

THE CEEBOO:)

[HiJolly]

I am getting confused lol, who said JS was excommunicated

Perhaps ceeboo is alluding to the accusations of various people, both in and out of the Church, that Joseph was guilty of adultery. If he had been guilty of it, he would have been excommunicated, per the rules in the Church. The Lord said as much by revelation through Joseph in the Doctrine and Covenants (!).

Some don't regard Joseph's revelations and teachings concering polygamy and polyandry as valid, which would likely lead to this sort of view. I on the other hand feel that I understand (mostly) Joseph's teachings, views and intent on this and thus I support his actions and teachings as not being adulterous.

Some fascinating history is involved, here. Unfortunately the evidences are not perfect nor conclusive in all this, so we will probably have to wait for the next life to get the whole story. Some folks are not willing to be patient. I have to admit I'd rather know now rather than later, myself. (sigh)

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

Hello again HiJolly,

Agree about what, an open canon or JS was not excommunicated ?:)

Peace,

THE CEEBOO:)

Neither --- I meant about the "good reason" Joseph was not excommunicated.

HiJolly

[Guest ceeboo]

Perhaps ceeboo is alluding to the accusations of various people, both in and out of the Church, that Joseph was guilty of adultery. If he had been guilty of it, he would have been excommunicated, per the rules in the Church. The Lord said as much by revelation through Joseph in the Doctrine and Covenants (!).

Some don't regard Joseph's revelations and teachings concering polygamy and polyandry as valid, which would likely lead to this sort of view. I on the other hand feel that I understand (mostly) Joseph's teachings, views and intent on this and thus I support his actions and teachings as not being adulterous.

Some fascinating history is involved, here. Unfortunately the evidences are not perfect nor conclusive in all this, so we will probably have to wait for the next life to get the whole story. Some folks are not willing to be patient. I have to admit I'd rather know now rather than later, myself. (sigh)

HiJolly

HIJOLLY, MY dear friend :)

I am indeed impressed, To think I am in another State and we are on the same page.:)

I would certainly agree with you, my friend, that the history is fascinating and it is unfortunate that we have limitations to make absolute conclusions.:) I just wished you used the same discretion for ALL historical human events:D

Lastly, I would also rather know now of these many interesting things, BUT, like all of us, I imagine we will just have to wait.:):)

God bless,

Carl

[Guest ceeboo]

Neither --- I meant about the "good reason" Joseph was not excommunicated.

HiJolly

OHHH,

YES, a very respectfull, warm, kind, YES I do not agree:):)

[jimuk]

Hi jimuk,

I see Carol gave you a link as to the Catholic teaching of unbaptized infants, I will just add that the following is a teaching as well: With respect to children who have died without baptism, the liturgy of the Church tells us to trust Gods mercy. In addition, it also teaches that ALL those, without knowing, who act with the inspiration of God, seek God in sincerity and strive to fullfill his will, are saved.

I have never heard the mass in Latin ( although I would like to ) It is offered in Latin " special masses and such.

Latin is the very ancient language ALL the saints spoke and is considered by many Catholics as revered, sacred, respectfull, traditional. This ancient language ( now extinct )

is the very language our brothers and sisters in Christ spoke in the Early Church days.

SO, these reasons ( and many more ) are why I thought the previous post was nothing short of disrespectfull, bias, and certainly unChristian.

God bless,

Carl

Hi Carl thanks for the reply.

We as members of the church of jesus christ of latter day saints do "know" for a surety that babies do indeed return to our father in heaven, heavenly father is our "yours and mine" father in the true meaning of "father" Rest assured as a loving father he would want them in the comfort of his arms as soon as they were taken from this mortal world, this is such a lovely comforting thing to know. there is no room for speculation on this, if in any doubt on this then i am sorry, the doubter can not know the love of Heavenly father.

If "anyone" professes to know the father and then says they dont know what happens to our little ones is denying our father and will be held accountable for thinking such a thing.

When i say anyone i do mean anyone, Prophet, pope, anyone, from most high to the lowest creature that creeps or crawls on this earth.

I say to you all heavenly father wants us all home, all of us.

[jimuk]

Hi jimuk,

I see Carol gave you a link as to the Catholic teaching of unbaptized infants, I will just add that the following is a teaching as well: With respect to children who have died without baptism, the liturgy of the Church tells us to trust Gods mercy. In addition, it also teaches that ALL those, without knowing, who act with the inspiration of God, seek God in sincerity and strive to fullfill his will, are saved.

I have never heard the mass in Latin ( although I would like to ) It is offered in Latin " special masses and such.

Latin is the very ancient language ALL the saints spoke and is considered by many Catholics as revered, sacred, respectfull, traditional. This ancient language ( now extinct )

is the very language our brothers and sisters in Christ spoke in the Early Church days.

SO, these reasons ( and many more ) are why I thought the previous post was nothing short of disrespectfull, bias, and certainly unChristian.

God bless,

Carl

Hi Carl thanks for the reply.

We as members of the church of jesus christ of latter day saints do "know" for a surety that babies do indeed return to our father in heaven, heavenly father is our "yours and mine" father in the true meaning of "father" Rest assured as a loving father he would want them in the comfort of his arms as soon as they were taken from this mortal world, this is such a lovely comforting thing to know. there is no room for speculation on this, if in any doubt on this then i am sorry, the doubter can not know the love of Heavenly father.

If "anyone" professes to know the father and then says they dont know what happens to our little ones is denying our father and will be held accountable for thinking such a thing.

When i say anyone i do mean anyone, Prophet, pope, anyone, from most high to the lowest creature that creeps or crawls on this earth.

I say to you all heavenly father wants us all home, all of us.

[prisonchaplain]

Pope and Prophet and Evangelical Preacher were in a boat fishing in the middle of a lake. Pope Says, " I gotta go to the bathroom", so he jumps out of the boat and walks across the lake to the bathroom and then comes back. Mormon Prophet says, " I gotta go too", so he jumps out of the boat and walks across the water and goes to the bathroom and then walks back. A few minutes later the Evangelical preacher says, " I gotta go too", so he jumps out of the boat and and immediately starts floundering around. The Pope looks at the Prophet and says, " Should we tell him about the rocks?", the Prophet replies, " what rocks?"

Prisonchaplain = Evangelical Preacher & he no get it.

[abqfriend]

Hi,

Interesting post-I am glad that you know. The teachings of the Catholic Church and LDS are different-we can agree to that--but why such bashing of another's understanding of their faith.

To deny that I know the Love of my Heavenly Father-is not for you to judge.

Just because I do not know what happens to infants in a 100% way does not mean that I or my Church denies The Father.

Differences of history/theology-sure-but why bash another faith?

-This thread almost started with a fun joke-and degenerated to Catholic Bashing-in my opinion.

It started positive-and went negative.

-I realize I am in the minority here-but is my voice worth anything?

See where the thread first went astray---and see my point.

-Let's show some tolerance please.

-Carol

Hi Carl thanks for the reply.

We as members of the church of jesus christ of latter day saints do "know" for a surety that babies do indeed return to our father in heaven, heavenly father is our "yours and mine" father in the true meaning of "father" Rest assured as a loving father he would want them in the comfort of his arms as soon as they were taken from this mortal world, this is such a lovely comforting thing to know. there is no room for speculation on this, if in any doubt on this then i am sorry, the doubter can not know the love of Heavenly father.

If "anyone" professes to know the father and then says they dont know what happens to our little ones is denying our father and will be held accountable for thinking such a thing.

When i say anyone i do mean anyone, Prophet, pope, anyone, from most high to the lowest creature that creeps or crawls on this earth.

I say to you all heavenly father wants us all home, all of us.

Edited October 7, 2008 by abqfriend

[mnn727]

I find it funny (strange) that many Churches are coming to an understanding of the Gospel. Its undeniable that in the past, the RCC taught that unbaptised children that died went to either Limbo or Hell, as did most Protestant Churches, but I know of no Church today that still teaches this. The same goes for people who, through no fault of their own never hear of Jesus Christ, in the past Churches doomed them to Hell, today most Churches say they leave it in the hands of God (where it should have always been IMHO) The last 50 years or so there has been a great shift in religious beliefs and teachings about not only this, but many other things also. I wonder if the reason is that the members understanding at some basic level that God is not a cruel, uncaring God? Or if Churches that preach nothing but hellfire and damnation have lost many of their members as the older generation dies off.

Edited October 7, 2008 by mnn727

[Guest ceeboo]

Hi Carl thanks for the reply.

We as members of the church of jesus christ of latter day saints do "know" for a surety that babies do indeed return to our father in heaven, heavenly father is our "yours and mine" father in the true meaning of "father" Rest assured as a loving father he would want them in the comfort of his arms as soon as they were taken from this mortal world, this is such a lovely comforting thing to know. there is no room for speculation on this, if in any doubt on this then i am sorry, the doubter can not know the love of Heavenly father.

If "anyone" professes to know the father and then says they dont know what happens to our little ones is denying our father and will be held accountable for thinking such a thing.

When i say anyone i do mean anyone, Prophet, pope, anyone, from most high to the lowest creature that creeps or crawls on this earth.

I say to you all heavenly father wants us all home, all of us.

Hi Jimuk,

I do so appreciate your sharing as well as the obvious kind manner that you do it.

I will do my best to return this.:)

I also believe ( and the Catholic Church supports in many ways ) that these babies " have a special place with the Lord ". I am personaly conviced as much. I will simply say again that the Church has NO OFFICIAL teaching on it. IMHO, and only my opinion, is that there have in deed been some Catholic leaders in the past that were rather contradictory to this ( to be fair concerning a 2000 year history on the subject ).

Although I appreciate and respect your LDS perspective on this ( AND TO BE CLEAR, I AM IN AGREEMENT WITH WHERE THESE BABIES END UP ) I do not accept the " heavenly father" as you do. This goes completly off topic but, in my eyes, it has everything to do with our ( LDS/Catholic ) insights to the very nature of God, who God is, and what we can know of him.

I do appreciate your contributions and YES, I think we can agree that these ( babies ) are in a much better place than you or I at the present time.:)

In closing, YES, I AGREE, I DO NOT KNOW THE LDS " HEAVENLY FATHER"

God bless,

Carl

Edited October 7, 2008 by ceeboo

[bytor2112]

Prisonchaplain = Evangelical Preacher & he no get it.

hmm....how about a Jewish Rabi...or a Muslim Cleric...or a Budhist monk... just insert what you fell comfortable with....:)

PC...I thought you were Pentacostal or Assembly of God..no?

[prisonchaplain]

hmm....how about a Jewish Rabi...or a Muslim Cleric...or a Budhist monk... just insert what you fell comfortable with....:)

PC...I thought you were Pentacostal or Assembly of God..no?

LOL...I'm just messing with you...I've heard the joke told in many versions, and it's still relatively cute. Assemblies of God = Pentecostal, but it is also the largest denomination in the National Association of Evangelicals. (hint: pentecostals are evangelicals, but not all evangelicals are pentecostal)

[jimuk]

Hi,

Interesting post-I am glad that you know. The teachings of the Catholic Church and LDS are different-we can agree to that--but why such bashing of another's understanding of their faith.

To deny that I know the Love of my Heavenly Father-is not for you to judge.

Just because I do not know what happens to infants in a 100% way does not mean that I or my Church denies The Father.

Differences of history/theology-sure-but why bash another faith?

-This thread almost started with a fun joke-and degenerated to Catholic Bashing-in my opinion.

It started positive-and went negative.

-I realize I am in the minority here-but is my voice worth anything?

See where the thread first went astray---and see my point.

-Let's show some tolerance please.

-Carol

Hi Carol.

There is no faith bashing intended here, i hear so much bashing, (never from you) on hear along the lines of "your joseph smith this your Joseph smith that" i love my father in heaven, i am sorry if some of the things said have an adverse effect, but the fact is this, no matter what my children do, i would never turn them away, you read of people commiting murder but the persons parents still visit them in prison, because they are their children.

I do believe that to doubt where babies go would be to have doubt of heavenly fathers love for us and i stick by that.

All the best to your husband and tourself Carol.

[YoungMormonRoyalist]

Hi jimuk,

I see Carol gave you a link as to the Catholic teaching of unbaptized infants, I will just add that the following is a teaching as well: With respect to children who have died without baptism, the liturgy of the Church tells us to trust Gods mercy. In addition, it also teaches that ALL those, without knowing, who act with the inspiration of God, seek God in sincerity and strive to fullfill his will, are saved.

I have never heard the mass in Latin ( although I would like to ) It is offered in Latin " special masses and such.

Latin is the very ancient language ALL the saints spoke and is considered by many Catholics as revered, sacred, respectfull, traditional. This ancient language ( now extinct )

is the very language our brothers and sisters in Christ spoke in the Early Church days.

SO, these reasons ( and many more ) are why I thought the previous post was nothing short of disrespectfull, bias, and certainly unChristian.

God bless,

Carl

Not to be completely anal....but as a history buff I would like to point out that in the very, very early days of the Church the common language was Greek. Latin was adopted by the Western half of the church where Latin was the more common language among the Western Roman Empire, and became the official language after the Orthodox/Catholic schism. In Greek Orthodoxy the language is still very much greek, the same language the New Testament was written in.

Cheers!

[abqfriend]

Hi Jim,

Thank you for your post.

Yes, I try to not bash any other faith tradition as my faith teaches me to be tolerant to others and I make it a point to not judge others in any way.

If I disagree with another-I will post my faith tradition and as much as possible with

links to support my position. Ultimately our religion is about faith.

As this is a LDS site-and I am a small minority on it-I have tried to learn the correct LDS faith position. I go onto official LDS sites like LDS.org. I puchased a "Triple" in leather yet-as I have deep respect for what my "triple" contains. I have tried to study the BoM and the D&C and I watch BYU-TV available on my DISH Network here. I am now a financial contributor to BYU-TV. I may disagree with some of the doctrines and teachings of the LDS Church-but I am here to learn and grow in in my faith and show deep respect toward others.

I just simply ask that such respect is shown back to me.

When I see that someone does not understand my faith-I will give information and links to present it correctly.

Many people have incorrect views of the LDS faith tradition and many have incorrect views on the Roman Catholic faith tradition as well.

Unfortunately-there are "ANTI" sites abounding on both faith traditions.

"Anti" sites tend to be very negative and give an outdated or incorrect position of a faith position and present an incorrect or false view of it.

I again-try to go to the source to understand the faith tradition of another.

I am here to learn and grow and meet some very wonderful people.

May our Heavenly Father bless each of us on our journey of faith.

Carol

Hi Carol.

There is no faith bashing intended here, i hear so much bashing, (never from you) on hear along the lines of "your joseph smith this your Joseph smith that" i love my father in heaven, i am sorry if some of the things said have an adverse effect, but the fact is this, no matter what my children do, i would never turn them away, you read of people commiting murder but the persons parents still visit them in prison, because they are their children.

I do believe that to doubt where babies go would be to have doubt of heavenly fathers love for us and i stick by that.

All the best to your husband and tourself Carol.

[abqfriend]

Thankyou.

Your post following mine is exactly what my post was focusing on.

You clarified my position- with others thanks so much for your post.

Carol

I agree, the Catholics get a lot of guff from everyone just like we do. (I guess they are jealous, seeing how we are the only ones who actually claim to have authority, and are not just copy cats or break away groups... LOL!) No, J/K. Everyone's beliefs are very dear to their hearts... hopefully our faith is in our G-d rather than in our church though... I think it was CS Lewis who said "If your church is your G-d, you will find no G-d in your church"... I love our prophet... but then Jonah was a prophet too... I follow the Spirit, Jesus, my G-d before following any person... If it is not in line with a loving merciful perfect G-d, count me out.

[Misshalfway]

I remember once reading something by I think Hugh Nibley (forgive my faulty memory) about the difference between membership in the church and what he called the church of the first born.

I think what he meant was that membership alone cannot and will not save you. I could probably wax on an on about what he meant by the church of the first born, but to be brief, I think it comprises those who really "get it" meaning that they understand the truth and that it is written on their souls. And then who are truly cleansed by the Savior and who have chosen the good and as a result have become good.

There is much to learn from these interactions with each other on this forum, don't you think? I find myself learning and stumbling and laughing at myself and sometimes cringing at myself, as my own weakness shows me where I need to improve. I know that sometimes we don't understand one another or perhaps we do understand but completely disagree. What a wonderful recipe for refinement. So.....thank you for putting up with my weakness and for letting me learn from yours.

Onward and upward as we humble ourselves to what is really true. I do believe that is where God is leading all of us... to one great room of light and truth with no walls and no divisions. I suppose the trick is the humbling of our inner selves to receive whatever it is Father is ready to give us.

[candyprpl]

I remember once reading something by I think Hugh Nibley (forgive my faulty memory) about the difference between membership in the church and what he called the church of the first born.

I think what he meant was that membership alone cannot and will not save you. I could probably wax on an on about what he meant by the church of the first born, but to be brief, I think it comprises those who really "get it" meaning that they understand the truth and that it is written on their souls. And then who are truly cleansed by the Savior and who have chosen the good and as a result have become good.

There is much to learn from these interactions with each other on this forum, don't you think? I find myself learning and stumbling and laughing at myself and sometimes cringing at myself, as my own weakness shows me where I need to improve. I know that sometimes we don't understand one another or perhaps we do understand but completely disagree. What a wonderful recipe for refinement. So.....thank you for putting up with my weakness and for letting me learn from yours.

Onward and upward as we humble ourselves to what is really true. I do believe that is where God is leading all of us... to one great room of light and truth with no walls and no divisions. I suppose the trick is the humbling of our inner selves to receive whatever it is Father is ready to give us.

I think this has been said before Misshalfway -- when are you going to write a book! I for one think it would be really inspirational, along the lines of CS Lewis.

All those in favor of Misshalfway writing a book

[AnthonyB]

Misshalfway,

There is an evanglelical saying that sort of says the same you did.

"Going to MacDonalds doesn't make you a hamburger"

(That is going to church or chapel doesn't give you a relationship with God, it just means your going to a building no matter how often you go.)

Or...

"God has no grandchildren, only children."

(You can't rely on the faith of your parents, you yourself have to build your own relationship with Father God.)

PC,

Please forgive my pedanticness but I presume you not including Oneness Pentecostals as Evanglelicals?

[Hemidakota]

and sadly their words are also considered irreavlent by some of their followers as well

Concur...I seen it within the LDS church as I also seen it in the Catholic Church.

[Hemidakota]

I remember once reading something by I think Hugh Nibley (forgive my faulty memory) about the difference between membership in the church and what he called the church of the first born.

I think what he meant was that membership alone cannot and will not save you. I could probably wax on an on about what he meant by the church of the first born, but to be brief, I think it comprises those who really "get it" meaning that they understand the truth and that it is written on their souls. And then who are truly cleansed by the Savior and who have chosen the good and as a result have become good.

There is much to learn from these interactions with each other on this forum, don't you think? I find myself learning and stumbling and laughing at myself and sometimes cringing at myself, as my own weakness shows me where I need to improve. I know that sometimes we don't understand one another or perhaps we do understand but completely disagree. What a wonderful recipe for refinement. So.....thank you for putting up with my weakness and for letting me learn from yours.

Onward and upward as we humble ourselves to what is really true. I do believe that is where God is leading all of us... to one great room of light and truth with no walls and no divisions. I suppose the trick is the humbling of our inner selves to receive whatever it is Father is ready to give us.

Misshalfway, eloquent posting.

" Thinking we can choose for ourselves, be called to the Church of the Firstborn, is not our choice but requires the Holy Ghost present the individual to the Savior for this sacred privilege. It is the Savior, who chooses His own in order to make it happen"

Elder Robert D. Hales talked about this during conference how we should approach each other in blogs, conversation, and other modes of communication concerning beliefs.

MP3: http://broadcast.lds.org/genconf/2008/10/40/GC_2008_10_405_HalesRD__04903_eng_.mp3

[Misshalfway]

darn Hemi. I tried to listen and it wouldn't load. Do you perhaps know the name of the talk so I can index it that way?

[Hemidakota]

Try this link: LDS.org - Media

Then 'click' on Sunday morning. He was after Elder Eyring.

[jimuk]

Hi Jimuk,

I do so appreciate your sharing as well as the obvious kind manner that you do it.

I will do my best to return this.:)

I also believe ( and the Catholic Church supports in many ways ) that these babies " have a special place with the Lord ". I am personaly conviced as much. I will simply say again that the Church has NO OFFICIAL teaching on it. IMHO, and only my opinion, is that there have in deed been some Catholic leaders in the past that were rather contradictory to this ( to be fair concerning a 2000 year history on the subject ).

Although I appreciate and respect your LDS perspective on this ( AND TO BE CLEAR, I AM IN AGREEMENT WITH WHERE THESE BABIES END UP ) I do not accept the " heavenly father" as you do. This goes completly off topic but, in my eyes, it has everything to do with our ( LDS/Catholic ) insights to the very nature of God, who God is, and what we can know of him.

I do appreciate your contributions and YES, I think we can agree that these ( babies ) are in a much better place than you or I at the present time.:)

In closing, YES, I AGREE, I DO NOT KNOW THE LDS " HEAVENLY FATHER"

God bless,

Carl

Hi Carl, i must have missed your very kind reply to my post, thank you.

Carl you say "I do not know the LDS Heavenly father" Carl rest assured my friend that Heavenly father does indeed know you, (you are his son) and he knows that a seed has been planted, he also knows of the good work that you do here "amongst" his saints.

But i feel you are a kind person who does indeed know what you call the "LDS" heavenly father, one day carl you are going to be kicked up the backside by the Holy Ghost, and you will be overcome and then you will know just where that kick came from. :)

God bless you Carl.