Gay marriage and public education


unixknight
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Wow Fiannan this may be a first but I have to agree with most of your last statement. I've felt for a long time that many try to rationalize or find loopholes in GA statements etc so they can justify their own actions.

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Ahh....I didn't say it was normal or acceptable.....but it has become more accepted by the public at large.......I think....because of pop culture/MTV......and it is mystifying. But less bullying is a good thing....wouldn't you agree?

That is problem, what is acceptable by the world doesn't mean it is acceptable by the church, the Godhead, or even may be part of the Plan of Salvation. Either we live the Terrestial Laws or make plans to exit the planet prior to the Savior return.

Now, there is no bullying here but to prevent a further decayed society that begining to resemble of past historical cultures that failed. Thus, saving those souls from a lesser glory when they can achieve a higher state and be with the Savior.

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Well okay.... if this is a "I want to win the debate and you (meaning me) are bad and evil type of thing"... then I will concede. I mean I have been called a satanist, and a murderer, on this very board before, so why not. But you will have to excuse me if I pass on suggesting these values for my family. I will however mention that people consider as as horrible because we disagree with them if you do not mind. :)

What are you talking about...? When have I said anything like this to you?

Your last post made some fine points but I didn't feel you were addressing the issue I was referring to when you replied to me, namely, that I find it distasteful to paint people who are against gay marriage as being 'racist.' If I missed something in your post that was directly relevant to that then by all means point it out to me, but suggesting that I've said anything to demonize you or think you're evil is out of line.

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And why do you insist on quoting Elder Oaks and twisting his statements around to soundas if the Church is becomming more accepting of homosexuality?

You are the only one who has attempted to twist statements by general authorities and by me to suit your own "arguments."

I have acknowledged a number of times that the LDS church requires that members in good standing not engage in sex outside marriage, regardless of the genders involved. I have neither misrepresented nor criticized that view.

My point in citing Elder Oaks has only been to refute your misinformation about the LDS stance on the causes of homosexuality. You seem to enjoy citing Elder Packer on this issue. However, since it is Elder Oaks's (and someone else, whose name I don't remember) statements that appear on lds.org under "Public Issues," I'm assuming these are the statements that the general authorities have determined are most accurate in describing the church's current view.

My reason for for addressing this issue is that I have a significant background in working with young gay LDS men. Any member of the LDS church who is gay who is dedicated to living the LDS standards fully deserves both compassion and deep respect for the effort that this takes. Choosing not to express one's sexuality in any way is not the equivalent of choosing not to drink or to steal.

In arguing that sexual orientation has biological roots and emphasizing that even the LDS church no longer claims it is merely a "choice," my goal is not to give "permission" for gay Mormons to sin; it is to encourage in Mormons a deeper understanding of the situation these members face.

The LDS church has indeed become "more accepting" of homosexuality in acknowledging that it is a real struggle for gay Mormons, not a moral weakness that is easily overcome. The LDS church is not becoming more accepting of gay sex, and I have never suggested that it is.

Please stop trying to twist my words and arugments to fit your accusations.

You are behaving dishonorably.

Edited by OtterPop
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Quote:

Originally Posted by OtterPop

unixknight,

How exactly do you know who is having sex with whom?

Why would I need to? Why are you asking me this?

Why would I need to? Why are you asking me this?

Because who one has sex with is how you lazily defined the "gay lifestyle." It was meant to point out that simple definitions don't work well in this issue.

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You are the only one who has attempted to twist statements by general authorities and by me to suit your own "arguments."

I have acknowledged a number of times that the LDS church requires that members in good standing not engage in sex outside marriage, regardless of the genders involved. I have neither misrepresenting nor criticized that view.

My point in citing Elder Oaks has only been to refute your misinformation that about the LDS stance on the causes of homosexuality. You seem to enjoy citing Elder Packer on this issue. However, since it is Elder Oaks's (and someone else, whose name I don't remember) statements that appear on lds.org under "Public Issues," I'm assuming these are the statements that the general authorities have determined are most accurate in describing the church's current view.

My reason for for addressing this issue is that I have a significant background in working with young gay LDS men. Any member of the LDS church who is gay who is dedicated to living the LDS standards fully deserves both compassion and deep respect for the effort that this takes. Choosing not to express one's sexuality in any way is not the equivalent of choosing not to drink or to steal.

In arguing that sexual orientation has biological roots and emphasizing that even the LDS church no longer claims it is merely a "choice," my goal is not to give "permission" for gay Mormons to sin; it is to encourage in Mormons a deeper understanding of the situation these members face.

The LDS church has indeed become "more accepting" of homosexuality in acknowledging that it is a real struggle for gay Mormons, not a moral weakness that his easily overcome. The LDS church is not becoming more accepting of gay sex, and I have never suggested that it is.

Please stop trying to twist my words and arugments to fit your accusations.

You are behaving dishonorably.

My good friend, Elder Lance B. Wickmann.

Elder Dallin Oaks article in the Ensign, "Same-Gender Attraction"

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Same-Gender Attraction

Edited by Hemidakota
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And while were making links, let's not forget Holland's talk that appeared in the Ensign a year ago.

Helping Those Who Struggle With Same-Gender Attraction

Some highlights:

As for why you feel [same-Gender Attraction], I can’t answer that question. A number of factors may be involved, and they can be as different as people are different. Some things, including the cause of your feelings, we may never know in this life. But knowing why you feel as you do isn’t as important as knowing you have not transgressed. If your life is in harmony with the commandments, then you are worthy to serve in the Church, enjoy full fellowship with the members, attend the temple, and receive all the blessings of the Savior’s Atonement.

_________________________________________________________________________________

When an angel asked Nephi a question about God, Nephi answered, “I know that he loveth his children; nevertheless, I do not know the meaning of all things” (1 Nephi 11:17). I too affirm that God loves all His children and acknowledge that many questions, including some related to same-gender attraction, must await a future answer, perhaps in the next life.

Unfortunately, some people believe they have all the answers now and declare their opinions far and wide. Fortunately, such people do not speak for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

_________________________________________________________________________________

For various reasons, marriage and children are not immediately available to all. Perhaps no offer of marriage is forthcoming. Perhaps even after marriage there is an inability to have children. Or perhaps there is no present attraction to the opposite gender. Whatever the reason, God’s richest blessings will eventually be available to all of His children if they are clean and faithful.

(Emphasis mine in all locations)

Edited by MarginOfError
Added highlights.
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In arguing that sexual orientation has biological roots and emphasizing that even the LDS church no longer claims it is merely a "choice," my goal is not to give "permission" for gay Mormons to sin; it is to encourage in Mormons a deeper understanding of the situation these members face.

The LDS church has indeed become "more accepting" of homosexuality in acknowledging that it is a real struggle for gay Mormons, not a moral weakness that his easily overcome. The LDS church is not becoming more accepting of gay sex, and I have never suggested that it is.

Again, you are trying to frame anyone who doesn't hold your point of view in a context that doesn't fit. First, you make it sound as if the Church once said it was a weakness easily overcome. I don't think any church leaders have said that, have they? I think that since the earliest days leaders have recognized that there are conditions that are hard to overcome -- but not impossible. Second, the church is not taking a stand that you seem to like fusing together with Elder Oaks that homosexuality is biological. They are merely saying that there could be a variety of factors contributing to this condition -- and as I have said one can hold a variety of views in psychology relating to this matter.

Ironically, I was riding on the train with a friend who is a biology prof today. I mentioned the idea of homosexuality being genetic and she did a pretty good job refuting the claim from several different biological angles. When I mentioned the idea of certain genes perhaps causing people to be more predisposed to seeking novelty or challenging social norms she seemed to entertain the idea it could be a factor but still thought the literature and the mere concept was counter to biological principles and research.

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Fiannan is correct regarding Elder Oaks does not endorse homosexual being genetic:

"In contrast to our doctrinal approach, many persons approach the problems of same-sex attraction solely from the standpoint of current science. While I am not qualified as a scientist, with the aid of scientific literature and with the advice of qualified scientists and practitioners, I will attempt to refute the claim of some that scientific discoveries demonstrate that avowed homosexuals and lesbians were “born that way.”"Ensign, 1995, October Same-Gender Attraction By Elder Dallin H. Oaks

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Hemidakota, I am going off the more recent statement by Elder Oaks from the LDS church's website. I'm assuming that since you believe in living prophets, that the more recent information is considered more salient.

Fiannan, I have never said that the LDS church endorses a biological cause of homosexuality. I have only said that they acknowledge it is possible, and that they don't know the causes. I have not "fused" anything. In your most recent post, you are actually agreeing with what I have been saying this whole time. Why do you keep arguing with me?

I have also said that I personally think the genetic case for cause of homosexuality is relatively weak. To say that it has biological roots is not the same as saying it's genetic.

The statement -- not "official" church doctrine, but as close as it gets without being doctrine -- that for years stood as the standard on homosexuality was that in SWK's book The Miracle of Forgiveness. I don't have a copy and I haven't read it in years, but I know the statement is much harsher than more current statements on homosexuality, and that many gay people have thought that they would be better off dead than gay, even if they weren't acting on it.

Current statements by LDS leaders also acknowledge that the previous advice that gay people should get married is not a solution. They also acknowledge that not all people with SSA can overcome those feelings in this life. They make a clear and compassionate distinction between feelings and actions, and that didn't used to be the case. This is a step forward in understanding SSA. It is a more nuanced and less simplistic view.

But I'm sure Fiannan will find a way to argue with this as well.

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Otter, Elder Oaks has not changed his stance or nor does any of the 15 Prophets that sit in those seats. I do know, we must be more caring, loving, and understanding of the plight of those who are seeking to overcome this problem.

I had posted his last recent interview, along with Elder Wickmann by Deseret News, concerning this issue on this forum.

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Otter, Elder Oaks has not changed his stance or nor does any of the 15 Prophets that sit in those seats. I do know, we must be more caring, loving, and understanding of the plight of those who are seeking to overcome this problem.

I had posted his last recent interview, along with Elder Wickmann by Deseret News, concerning this issue on this forum.

Hemidakota, the recommendations from LDS general authorities about homosexuality certainly have changed over the years. The emphasis currently is on "enduring to the end" by choosing actions in alignment with LDS values, rather than on overcoming such feelings by getting married, which is what the advice was not long ago.

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I was not referring about the emphasis of enduring to the end but stating the chance of Homosexuality causes is genetic related described some geneticists claimed today. This viewpoint has not changed.

I would be interested to see what Elder Eyring has to say about Intelligence and the Gene. Something I had been pondered for years on whether gene cells have Intelligence that can easily influence the mortal spirit.

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Anyway in Norway this law came in from the back door. It just suddenly was voted for in the stortinget=senat and it went trough without a problem. We did try to wake people up, but we learned about this a few weeks before the stortinget should vote for it, so we had not time to do much. So now suddenly we live in a country wher everything is possible when talking about marriage. Not sure about the adaption.

We just have to be a step in front of the teachers in all teaching at home, so we can warn our kids about what the teachers will try to teach them. One of my sons told me he walked out of the class as they should have seen a teaching film of sex. I have told my kids to do that, if they feel they do not want to see it. I also told them actually to do that...:D Think the whole class walking out when tought of these things :P I personally think all parents should teach themselves this to their kids. I think school is a better place to teach how to care for everyone and how to bee kind and good to everyone.

Only problem is that when and if they have a questionin exams if they answer the way we teach they may end up with 0 points. Like my daughter answered very well to a question of babtism once when about 13 years of age. Only problem was the teacher forgot to write it should be according to lutheran belief! Teacher tok it for granted that all questions were of lutheran church not any other. A very good fullpoint answer got no points at all....:mellow:

Sometimes I wonder to start an internett school to homestudy kids....

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I was not referring about the emphasis of enduring to the end but stating the chance of Homosexuality causes is genetic related described some geneticists claimed today. This viewpoint has not changed.

From what I've read, you are right that Elder Oaks has not changed his stance on this: he neither endorses nor rejects biological causes of homosexuality.

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Tell me Hemi, how old were you when you told people you had chosen to be straight?

Did you know you were straight as a young child? Did you even know what "straight" meant?

#

Elphaba

##

I agree with this - as a child until I was about 11 or 12 I would not have understood the question certainly the gay friends I had as teens started awakening their sexuality and understanding at the same time as myself.

-Charley

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Disclaimer: My comments have nothing to do with gay marriage, or how you should vote about the issue. I have no opinion on that.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am curious to know if any children, who participated in the assault, were from homosexual couples but the story doesn’t say. How much of this hatred is being taught by their parents?

Why in the world would you think that?

Do you have any idea how degrading your question is about parents you know nothing about, except that they are gay?

What if the situation were reversed? Let’s say a seven-year-old kid whose parents are gay gets beat up by bullies. Would you then write: “I am curious to know if any children who participated in the assault were from heterosexual couples. . . .”? Of course you wouldn’t.

There is no difference between you and a gay person except your sexual orientation.

You love your family; gay people love their families. You love your Church; gay people love their churches. You take care of people who are sick; gay people take care of people who are sick. And on and on.

In fact, it is becoming more and more likely that someone in your ward is gay. How would you feel if s/he overheard you talking to someone about gays the way you did in your post?

This is very sad. It used to be that we didn’t have any tolerance of homosexuals and now we don’t seem to have any tolerance of heterosexual beliefs. Now the pendulum swings the other way.

Nonsense.

The entire country tolerates heterosexuality as much as it ever did. There are, however, more straight people who have come to understand that gay people are as deserving as you are, to live in a world where they are not treated with hate, violence and disgust.

I wonder why schools can’t just wait until college to teach homosexuality. Why indoctrinate children at so young an age?

Do you seriously think your child is not going to know what being homosexual means until s/he gets to college?

Regardless of sexual orientation, people are people. They all deserve to be treated with respect and dignity. We all need to understand we are no better, and no worse, than” they” are. We are the same.

Elphaba

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Elpha, how many children do you have? As a child of eight years old, it was not an issue for me to determine what I determine what is true. Unlike those who fell to the minions of whispering voices, I made that choose and choosed my path.

Let you know, I knew about sex when I was only nine years old. As I did know about those who we called homosexual in childhood days. I lived off an on in Europe as a child. Remember, I am a convert to the church and was raised in a military of mixed culture.

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Elpha, how many children do you have?

Two. Why?

As a child of eight years old, it was not an issue for me to determine what I determine what is true. Unlike those who fell to the minions of whispering voices, I made that choose and choosed my path.

You are the one who said that when you asked young children whether they straight or gay, they didn't know.

Now you're backtracking, saying it wasn't important to you to know. Then why would you think it would be to anyone else at that age?

Let you know, I knew about sex when I was only nine years old. As I did know about those who we called homosexual in childhood days. I lived off an on in Europe as a child. Remember, I am a convert to the church and was raised in a military of mixed culture.

And your point is?

Again, you are the one who said young children did not know if they were gay or straight, as if that were conclusive that being gay wasn't inborn. In reality, it's not conclusive of anything.

I imagine most of us knew about sex by the age of nine, but had no idea what homosexuality literally meant. To understand that would have meant an in-depth understanding of sexuality that nine-year-olds do not have.

Elphaba

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Disclaimer: My comments have nothing to do with gay marriage, or how you should vote about the issue. I have no opinion on that.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What if the situation were reversed? Let’s say a seven-year-old kid whose parents are gay gets beat up by bullies. Would you then write: “I am curious to know if any children who participated in the assault were from heterosexual couples. . . .”? Of course you wouldn’t.

Any bullying should be condone.

There is no difference between you and a gay person except your sexual orientation.

There is a vast difference of beliefs and how we choose to live this life that makes that vast difference with our eternal rewards. As there is no resemblence of culture determined family structure by having children or offspring. And so on...so, there is a difference beside no physical differences.

You love your family; gay people love their families. You love your Church; gay people love their churches. You take care of people who are sick; gay people take care of people who are sick. And on and on.

Families? Ugh, perhaps his/her partner. Removing the offspring factor, which is the goal here in being married or having progeny, that kind remove the fullness of marriage. Can they remain together in any glorified kindgom? No! Even within a few short years, as this earth moves into the Terrestial State, do you think that the Savior will allow them to remain? No! They will not remain together. Now, what is the point of marriage Elpha?

In fact, it is becoming more and more likely that someone in your ward is gay. How would you feel if s/he overheard you talking to someone about gays the way you did in your post? [/quote

And? My friend Dave Y. is a homosexual and he is LDS. So, what is the point here?

The entire country tolerates heterosexuality as much as it ever did. There are, however, more straight people who have come to understand that gay people are as deserving as you are, to live in a world where they are not treated with hate, violence and disgust.

Only those individuals who are not devoted in living the gospel delivered by Christ. There is no toleration for sin of any order. Even myself, I am very harsh on myself in not living every second in Christ. Now, we can see many will fall to the world in thinking, it is ok if the media, state, and national government approves it. Being devoted LDS, what treatment do we receive inside the church and out of the church? What was your point again? :lol:

Do you seriously think your child is not going to know what being homosexual means until s/he gets to college?

How many children do you have? My ten-year old knows the difference from Man and woman and man and man[woman and woman]. Why? Parents teaching their children.

Regardless of sexual orientation, people are people. They all deserve to be treated with respect and dignity. We all need to understand we are no better, and no worse, than” they” are. We are the same.

I concur. We should always treat one another as brothers and sisters.

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