Gay marriage and public education


unixknight
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It is simply audacious that any school administration would find it necessary to make any statement to the student body one way or the other concerning the social acceptability and morality of homosexuality. It is a demonstration of either incompetence or lack of efficacy that such a coarse of action is allowed. The situation could easily be avoided. Schools do not have any necessity to issue such statements.

Any school that recieves government money from [what should be] a secular one, has every right to say homosexuality is acceptable.

Or if not that, they shouldn't be allowed to condemn it. Condemning something to children, gives them the sense of everything being black and white (dark vs. light, good vs. evil). IF they do condemn it, the child should always be reminded that the bible doesnt justify violence against gay people (well, at least not the NT).

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And maybe we will discover in the future that frogs have a language and communication far more advanced than humans. :rolleyes:

It's possible. If we do discover that, will you be willing to accept it?

Thank you for pretty much proving the point of this thread that if these kinds of laws go into effect then if a teacher says homosexuality is great then that will be acceptable, but if a teacher expresses an opinion not in accordance to gay PC, even if it is totally divorced from any religious references or foundation, that teacher will be subject to censor.

That's almost right. What the teacher should say is that individuals have a right to engage in homosexuality. There should be no moral judgment tied to it either way. The teaching of morals doesn't belong in public school, it belongs in the home.

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Or if not that, they shouldn't be allowed to condemn it.

Exactly. There is simply no need for the school administration to make any statement either way. It is no different from the subject of religion, the administration has no need to affirm or deny the existence of any deity whatsoever. It's a can of worms that simply has no benefit in the opening thereof.

-a-train

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Exactly. There is simply no need for the school administration to make any statement either way. It is no different from the subject of religion, the administration has no need to affirm or deny the existence of any deity whatsoever. It's a can of worms that simply has no benefit in the opening thereof.

-a-train

But kids should still be taught that there -are- gay people, and oh, that scientific knowledge seems to say that people are born that way (that has no bearing on religion though, because ive heard a few people say that genetics can make us sin).

I really do think the existence of gay people is totally different from the existence of God. You can test, repeat and observe homosexuality.

Heres the other problem, if children aren't educated about it, then they're going to have predjudice.

It's interesting to note this

Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who are California citizens currently living out of the state are being organized to make phone calls in support of Proposition 8, if needed.

I was -sure- the Church was politically neutral.
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I think there's a fine line to walk here, unixknight. Let's put aside the debate about whether or not same sex marriage should be legal for a minute and focus on what happens if it is legal and practiced. Is there not some need to do something akin to sensitivity training? We all know how cruel children can be to each other when they see differences from established norms. I think there would be a legitimate need to inform children (and adults for that matter) that because one is part of a same-sex family does not justify our ridiculing, belittling, or demeaning them.

Unfortunately, that fine line that has to be walked is placed in the middle of a very dense mine field. Understandably, those who oppose same-sex marriage are concerned that such education will legitimize behavior they see as immoral. We really need more open communication between all the parties to establish a solid understanding of what is important to each other while maintaining a sense of respect and dignity for each other. It's a difficult task to take on, and we're going to screw up on occasion. Let's just try to be open, honest, fair, and calm through it and see if we can work it out together.

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The problem I'm seeing here is that people are saying "morality should be taught in the home" out of one side of their mouth, but then insisting that public schools are doing nothing wrong by normalizing homosexual marriage in the point of view of the students.

But the thing is, you dont have a right to enforce your morality on anyone.

Religious morality really is a "thing for the home".

If I were a religious person I would feelt that way.

Religion has no right to infringe on the legal rights of others.

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I think, Brenton, you've overshot the complaint a little. As I understand it, the complaint is against schools saying that there is nothing immoral about living a homosexual lifestyle, contrary to what parents teach in the home. Regardless of whether same sex marriage is or isn't legal, public institutions should not be imposing any moral value to the lifestyle. The public institutions should be limited to saying it is what it is, we need to treat everyone with due respect and dignity, and whether the lifestyle be right or wrong is a discussion to take up with your families at home.

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The problem I'm seeing here is that people are saying "morality should be taught in the home" out of one side of their mouth, but then insisting that public schools are doing nothing wrong by normalizing homosexual marriage in the point of view of the students.

In my case it is homeschooling AND being taught homosexual marraige is normal. However, in the schools where I am at it doesn't really come up.

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But kids should still be taught that there -are- gay people, and oh, that scientific knowledge seems to say that people are born that way (that has no bearing on religion though, because ive heard a few people say that genetics can make us sin).

I really do think the existence of gay people is totally different from the existence of God. You can test, repeat and observe homosexuality.

Heres the other problem, if children aren't educated about it, then they're going to have predjudice.

It's interesting to note this

I was -sure- the Church was politically neutral.

There is a big difference between isolating a gene which is in someway proven to contribute to same gender attraction and issuing a statement on morality. Perhaps there is a gene that makes one more likely to be an alcoholic, a writer, a runner, perhaps even one who lies.

The study of genetics is fine, but it has no say in matters of morality. A starving animal acting in its own instincts may eat its own offspring and although the act was natural, the human acceptance of morality abhors it among our species.

Such a distinction was common among educators of yesteryear and the code of educators forbade the entrance of scholastics into issues of morality.

Perhaps the argument would then turn to questions regarding the entrance of educators into the subject of honesty. The parents would demand that the teachers teach integrity. And if integrity, then why not chastity? But such things are learned by example and the true integrity of the teachers would prevent their entrance into subjects of sexual morality.

-a-train

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“We have staked the whole future of American civilization not upon the power of the government—far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandmnts of God.”

Hi Hemi,

I thought you would want to know that the Madison quote above is a "quote hoax." In other words, Madison never said this.

Unfortunately, it is still perpetuated as accurate, especially within evangelical circles, which explains why it still gets traction, even though it's a fake.

Elphaba

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We must also understand, that the schools are not temples of scholarly purity. But in those walls there rages a war for the minds of men. We must all understand that not everything asserted in school is true, and it will always be so. Our children must understand that and act accordingly, and if they cannot, they will ultimately need to learn that reality somewhere.

-a-train

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And maybe we will discover in the future that frogs have a language and communication far more advanced than humans. :rolleyes:

Fiannan, how much reading about gender and sexual orientation have you actually done? How many gay people have you actually talked to about their orientation? (And just to be clear, I don't mean their "sex life" when I say that.)

You are certainly entitled to believe that homosexual behavior is sinful and unnatural, but your ideas about sexual orientation are outdated and based on ignorance. The LDS church endorses views about SSA that are a lot more nuanced. Maybe you should get a clue from them.

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Oh ofcourse, its the lesbos that are your nations problem. *rolls eyes*

Gay marriage should be legal.

But I dont think they should be allowed to get married in churches ... I mean, why on earth would the majority of them WANT to in the first place?

I'm thinking this. LDS church is against national recognisation of gay marriage because it would threaten it's non-profit status?

And also, I guess it doesn't fit with the gospel principles of eternal families.

Can we have Bestial Marriages? Can we have Plural Marriages? Perhaps, I can marry myself? I think there is a gene to prove that one called the 'Three Ids'. If not, I think every special interest group should have their own way in society and receive their own rights. Brenton, is this what you want? :D

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"Gayism," is no more religious than is your "Straightism."

Saying atheism is "religious" is akin to saying a couple who decides not to have children is "parenthood."

Wrong.

Elphaba

How can we coin the term of 'What is Religion?' Main core of BELIEF....now you telling me they do not have a core belief of same gender marriage or even the atheist central creed that there is no god?

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But the thing is, you dont have a right to enforce your morality on anyone.

Religious morality really is a "thing for the home".

If I were a religious person I would feelt that way.

Religion has no right to infringe on the legal rights of others.

Nor do the Gays have the right to infringe and force their own beliefs in public shcools. :D

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Hi Hemi,

I thought you would want to know that the Madison quote above is a "quote hoax." In other words, Madison never said this.

Unfortunately, it is still perpetuated as accurate, especially within evangelical circles, which explains why it still gets traction, even though it's a fake.

Elphaba

If you are relying on Snopes or the Wiki god, I doubt your findings are correct. I had some past laughs on findings only to find them wrong.

I did attempt a Google Research, with the author and the phrase, there is no contention to the phrase but Washington himself in a sense said the same.

Thanks...

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But kids should still be taught that there -are- gay people, and oh, that scientific knowledge seems to say that people are born that way (that has no bearing on religion though, because ive heard a few people say that genetics can make us sin).

I really do think the existence of gay people is totally different from the existence of God. You can test, repeat and observe homosexuality.

Heres the other problem, if children aren't educated about it, then they're going to have predjudice.

It's interesting to note this

I was -sure- the Church was politically neutral.

The Church is politically neutral when it comes to telling it's members who to vote for. When it comes to issues they (we) feel harm the things we consider sacred...then they get involved.

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More Madison.....

Nothwithstanding the general progress made within the two last centuries in favour of this branch of liberty, & the full establishment of it, in some parts of our Country, there remains in others a strong bias towards the old error, that without some sort of alliance or coalition between Gov' & Religion neither can be duly supported: Such indeed is the tendency to such a coalition, and such its corrupting influence on both the parties, that the danger cannot be too carefully guarded agst.. And in a Gov' of opinion, like ours, the only effectual guard must be found in the soundness and stability of the general opinion on the subject. Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance. And I have no doubt that every new example, will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Gov will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together; [James Madison, Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822, The Writings of James Madison, Gaillard Hunt]

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Perhaps the argument would then turn to questions regarding the entrance of educators into the subject of honesty. The parents would demand that the teachers teach integrity. And if integrity, then why not chastity? But such things are learned by example and the true integrity of the teachers would prevent their entrance into subjects of sexual morality.

-a-train

Perfect....
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How can we coin the term of 'What is Religion?' Main core of BELIEF....now you telling me they do not have a core belief of same gender marriage or even the atheist central creed that there is no god?

Some people believe the earth is round. We should should remove all references to the earth being round from school as well or we might give our poor children the idea that it is OK to think the earth is round which is clearly a religious belief.

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Some people believe the earth is round. We should should remove all references to the earth being round from school as well or we might give our poor children the idea that it is OK to think the earth is round which is clearly a religious belief.

So the pictures we see from space aren't true? :P

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