Gay marriage and public education


unixknight
 Share

Recommended Posts

That is not true, if you really want to home school your kids, you can down size. It just depends how important it is to you, what your children are taught.

When our state decided to teach "Alternative Life Styles" to 2nd graders back in 1995, we decided our kids will have no part of it. We have home schooled our kids for the last 18 years.

It is a choice....Should I buy the nice BMW? Do we need the house with the 3 car garage, or can we get away with 2 garage? Do we need that new boat?

It is a choice...

I had a lady who wanted to home school, I told her your going to have to downsize, she said "my husband will never get rid of his new durango"..

It is all about priorities..

I take exception to this. Strong exception.

If you're living in a circumstance that permits you to oversimplify the issue in this way then you should be grateful for your situation. There are those of us who truly could not afford to be on a single income even if we cut out everything but bread and water from the grocery list, lit candles to avoid an electric bill, and heated the house by burning newspapers. Please, don't pretend knowledge of people and circumstances you can't possibly have any insight into.

The public schools in this area are quite poor, and to casually suggest that people in my position are simply making excuses is to question our love and devotion for our children, for whom we would make any sacrifice. I resent that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 211
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I'm not sure whether you're being facetious or not.

Actually, our Constitution specifically says that the individual states have the right to legislate everything that's not provided in the Constitution, which at this point doesn't talk about marriage.

Also, in this country, marriage in a contract. Animals cannot enter into contracts. Surely, this is the case in Australia as well?

I was being a little facetious, and was really too lazy to omit the Bestial marriage question. :P
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm genuinely surprised, then, that you can conclude there is "no compelling evidence" for the the idea that gay people are born gay. I think there are lots of compelling data that point to biological roots of sexual orientation. Not proof, but certainly evidence.

Hi Otter,

For you, and anyone else trying to engage Fiannan in a discussion of possible biologic reasons for what causes some people to be homosexual, I offer the following links.

(I have linked the first posts in the threads where he and I engage each other; in other words, both of my links are not to the first posts in the threads. Also, some of my posts have the user name: Emma Hale Smith.)

No matter how much evidence I gave him that homosexuality is probably biologically determined before birth, he ignored it each and every time. In fact, it was obvious he never actually read my posts, because he never responded to what I had written; rather he kept babbling the same thing over and over and over again, just as he is doing here.

You'll see in the second thread how I provided numerous articles about the biological reasons for homosexuality, and he ignored them completely.

In other words, be warned that you could give irrefutable evidence demonstrating the biologic reason for homosexuality, and he would keep bloviating on about how heterosexual women turn bisexual, for life, once they have had a same sex encounter.

Also, I assure you he is not reading your posts in their entirety, if he‘s reading them at all.

http://www.lds.net/forums/175770-post18.html

http://www.lds.net/forums/98833-post27.html

Elphaba

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Odd, isn't it? I mean the politically correct, liberal crowd says that it's wrong to say that traits like intelligence are mostly due to genetics (even though there's plenty of evidence to back that up) yet it's perfectly okay to say that a guy wanting to get intimate with another guy is genetic (even though there's no compelling evidence to back that up).

And you all thought science and dogma was a big issue in Galileo's time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some people state that genetics is the reason why some (or perhaps all) become homosexual. I have also read from scientists that there is no evidence to that statement. Some say it is probable but that does not make it true any more than when scientists once said it was probable that the earth is the center of the universe. Well we certainly got that one wrong. We weren't even close to the right answer.

What may look right, what may feel right, may not be right at all. Which is one very good reason why we should not trust in the hand of flesh but in the hand of the Lord.

Edited by omega0401
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also, in this country, marriage in a contract. Animals cannot enter into contracts. Surely, this is the case in Australia as well?

Well you must remember that Australia has marsupials and we all know how intelligent they can be. Why just the other day I was talking to a kangaroo about this very issue. She pulled her marriage certificate out of her pouch and I was convinced.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Odd, isn't it? I mean the politically correct, liberal crowd says that it's wrong to say that traits like intelligence are mostly due to genetics (even though there's plenty of evidence to back that up) yet it's perfectly okay to say that a guy wanting to get intimate with another guy is genetic (even though there's no compelling evidence to back that up).

And you all thought science and dogma was a big issue in Galileo's time.

Elphaba, thanks for the heads up.

Fiannan, not once have I been dogmatic, and not once have I said that the likely root cause of homosexuality is genetic, because I actually don't think it is. Biological, yes, but not genetic. Nice introduction of a red herring on intelligence. I actually do think that raw intelligence is mostly inborn as well.

Good to know that you have the causes of sexual orientation all figured out. Perhaps you should give Dallin Oaks a call and let him know. He seems unclear on it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some people state that genetics is the reason why some (or perhaps all) become homosexual. I have also read from scientists that there is no evidence to that statement. Some say it is probable but that does not make it true any more than when scientists once said it was probable that the earth is the center of the universe. Well we certainly got that one wrong. We weren't even close to the right answer.

What may look right, what may feel right, may not be right at all. Which is one very good reason why we should not trust in the hand of flesh but in the hand of the Lord.

Omega, no who has actually read the literature would assert that genetics is the reason people are gay. It is unquestionably more nuanced than that.

Science expects to get things wrong. It is about formulating hypotheses and testing them, and using data to formulate new hypotheses and testing them . . .

I can't believe I'm actually saying this, but I think those of you who are LDS and are so sure of the causes of homosexuality really should read the statement of your own leaders on lds.org. They are a more open-minded about this question than what I'm seeing here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Perhaps you should give Dallin Oaks a call and let him know. He seems unclear on it.

Perhaps some should stop trying to misrepresent what the LDS Church stance is on homosexuality and what Elder Oaks was trying to convey.

As for your charges Elphaba, I'll just leave it up to people who have been here a while to determine if I back my points up or not in most debates.:cool:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Perhaps some should stop trying to misrepresent what the LDS Church stance is on homosexuality and what Elder Oaks was trying to convey.

I quoted directly from him, and I encourage anyone who is interested to read the piece for themselves. I linked to it above.

He says very clearly that the LDS church does not have a position on the causes of homosexuality. He also says that it is the moral responsibility of gay LDS members to control their actions, and that such control is possible.

I have neither misrepresented nor criticized the LDS church's statement.

You made an accusation that is completely unfounded. I'd appreciate it if you'd acknowledge that and apologize.

Edited by OtterPop
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some people state that genetics is the reason why some (or perhaps all) become homosexual. I have also read from scientists that there is no evidence to that statement. Some say it is probable but that does not make it true any more than when scientists once said it was probable that the earth is the center of the universe. Well we certainly got that one wrong. We weren't even close to the right answer.

What may look right, what may feel right, may not be right at all. Which is one very good reason why we should not trust in the hand of flesh but in the hand of the Lord.

That is what claimed but that is not the case. More like weak minds who do listen to the whispering of those minions. We all have weaknesses but do not allow to fester and to ingrain our souls into believing it is so.

Tomorrow science: the now found the murderer gene, the arson gene, thieve gene, thug gene, and so on...:lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All, you need to remember how they are trying to legalize the same gender marriages - by back-dooring through the court system. Reminds me of the failed Nephites court system when secret combination controlled the government and court systems.

Gay Marriage Is Ruled Legal in Connecticut

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/11/nyregion/11marriage.html

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Odd, isn't it? I mean the politically correct, liberal crowd says that it's wrong to say that traits like intelligence are mostly due to genetics (even though there's plenty of evidence to back that up) yet it's perfectly okay to say that a guy wanting to get intimate with another guy is genetic (even though there's no compelling evidence to back that up).

There is no such thing as a smart person, an intellectual yes (person who understands correctly and works well with knowledge) such an example would be Dawkins. Truth is not told, it is realised.

Tomorrow science: the now found the murderer gene, the arson gene, thieve gene, thug gene, and so on...

So youre comparing homosexuality to those things? How, errrmmm... "intelligent" of you.

First of all, arson, theivery, "thuggery" and so on ... are not inbuilt. These things are almost always done by people with lower levels of education, who dont have much money etc. The average intellectual, scholar or other such person is MUCH less likely to do these things.

It is the system of instutions by which our society runs by, which are outdated, are the causes of these problems. Politics, money, traditional famial values, "jobs", religion and other things are all things which do not solve problems but create more and lead to a less educated and understanding society, and they're the major basis for all our problems.

Religion, is a superstitious thing (there's no getting away from that), and people are welcome to believe whatever they want, but isnt it an interesting thing to note that those with a higher education are statistically much, much MUCH less likely to believe in superstitious notions for the way the universe "goes"?

All, you need to remember how they are trying to legalize the same gender marriages - by back-dooring through the court system. Reminds me of the failed Nephites court system when secret combination controlled the government and court systems.

I'm glad you can see the legal instutions are useless. Society, not knowing how to solve what they percieve as a "problem" make a law. How pathetic.

This is the third time I've said this, but it needs to be said again and again.

The LDS church is simply worried about another threat to it's not-for-profit status - should gay marriage become more nationalised.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is the third time I've said this, but it needs to be said again and again.

The LDS church is simply worried about another threat to it's not-for-profit status - should gay marriage become more nationalised.

Brenton....perhaps you should say that religious institutions are worried........rather than singling out the LDS church...sounds a bit insulting to the LDS and this is after all an LDS forum. :cool:

Edited by bytor2112
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The whole homosexual issue is irrelevant. One day we will all stand before the judgemnent bar of Christ and we will then know if it was genetic or choice or both. I personally think it is both......

Oh.....I mean everyone but Brenton, Elphaba and Rastler....they will just be worm food since there isn't a God. :lol: Just kidding......:D

Our duty is to share our beliefs in love and kindness.....whether or not they accept it is there business. I don't pretend to understand homosexuality because I don't have those desires. I had a friend that I worked with years ago that was "gay". I didn't know it till he told me. I commented on some very attractive young ladies one night and he said yes, very pretty. I commented on some more and he said, You know I am gay, right?? Huh? Yes, I am gay he said. We talked a lot about it and he said that he been "different since he was a child, he had tried to like girls...but couldn't...I believe him. Then there was a guy I went to school with.....his brother Mike, looked and acted like a woman. Very slender boned, high voice...very feminin, his sister's name was Pat.....very masculine, looked and dressed like a guy and acted like a guy. Both were openly gay. Genetic....I think so. I can't imagine the confusion that they must feel.

Then the whole bi-sexual thing........sexual addiction? Maybe. Seems very common with girls.......maybe guys too....what do I know. President Kimball said, "that the Lord doesn't make any fine distinctions between sexual immorality." Fornication, homosexuality, adultry...it's all an abomination in the Lord's eyes. But if you don't believe in such superstitions then........have a swell time. :devil::smokindevil::dude:

Edited by bytor2112
Link to comment
Share on other sites

People already argue the issue as a Civil Rights issue akin to the racial struggles of the 1960s. I've even been called a bigot because I once said I'd not let my male children wear dresses. (Who, exactly, I'm supposed to be bigoted against was never made clear, but meh.)

I guess the difference is that a person can hide being homosexual....a black person cannot hide being black.

As for the dresses.....I don't know, kilts are pretty manly..:D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The whole homosexual issue is irrelevant.

Bytor,

I think you are a kind man and a genuine disciple of Christ, and I mean that as a sincere compliment. I have no doubt that you treat people with dignity, regardless of whether you agree with their choices.

The "homosexual issue" matters a great deal to those LDS who have to deal with it -- in themselves, their children, their spouses, their siblings, anyone they care deeply about. It can be one of the most heart-wrenching realities of mortal life for believing Mormons. With genuine respect, I say to you that it's irrelevant to you only if you don't have to deal with it directly.

The LDS church has clarified, deepened, and softened their position on same-sex attraction significantly in the past 20 years. Twenty years ago, the advice was to ignore it, get married, be faithful to all your covenants, and the problem would take care of itself. That was bad advice, and I am grateful that the LDS church has changed their approach. Lots of LDS still need to understand what the church's position on homosexual orientation really is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bytor,

I think you are a kind man and a genuine disciple of Christ, and I mean that as a sincere compliment. I have no doubt that you treat people with dignity, regardless of whether you agree with their choices.

The "homosexual issue" matters a great deal to those LDS who have to deal with it -- in themselves, their children, their spouses, their siblings, anyone they care deeply about. It can be one of the most heart-wrenching realities of mortal life for believing Mormons. With genuine respect, I say to you that it's irrelevant to you only if you don't have to deal with it directly.

The LDS church has clarified, deepened, and softened their position on same-sex attraction significantly in the past 20 years. Twenty years ago, the advice was to ignore it, get married, be faithful to all your covenants, and the problem would take care of itself. That was bad advice, and I am grateful that the LDS church has changed their approach. Lots of LDS still need to understand what the church's position on homosexual orientation really is.

Otterpop......that is such a nice compliment...Thank you....I really do try, and may I say that your posts indicate to me that you are a wonderfully sincere and caring person and it is always a pleasure to read your posts...though I may occaisionally disagree.:)

I am sure you are right.....I guess what I am saying is ....all we can do is offer our love and support and council if it is desired. Arguing over whether it is right or wrong is not going to change the fact that it exists. Again, thanks for the nice comment...it is really very humbling and I am not sure all that deserved.:)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share