Patriotism


DigitalShadow
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Another thread got me thinking of this and I would like to discuss it further without derailing another thread. The goal is to get honest opinions on the subject and rationally discuss what patriotism means to different people. If you do not feel you can calmly express your opinion on the subject, feel free not to post because I do not want to see this thread locked. Here are some questions to get things started.

What does the word Patriotic mean to you?

Do you consider yourself patriotic? If so, in what way?

Is patriotism always a good thing? Why or why not?

Can someone be patriotic but still criticize aspects of their government? Why or why not?

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Another thread got me thinking of this and I would like to discuss it further without derailing another thread. The goal is to get honest opinions on the subject and rationally discuss what patriotism means to different people. If you do not feel you can calmly express your opinion on the subject, feel free not to post because I do not want to see this thread locked. Here are some questions to get things started.

What does the word Patriotic mean to you?

Do you consider yourself patriotic? If so, in what way?

Is patriotism always a good thing? Why or why not?

Can someone be patriotic but still criticize aspects of their government? Why or why not?

Think I know what thread you're talking about, DS, and I'm not sure I can be that rational.

Patriotic means loving your country and wishing for its good.

Yeah, I'm patriotic. See other thread.

I think if it's grounded in sober thought and real love it is. See so much bs about it, though.

Criticize? Of course. When people don't criticize you, it's often that they've given up hope.

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Think I know what thread you're talking about, DS, and I'm not sure I can be that rational.

Patriotic means loving your country and wishing for its good.

Yeah, I'm patriotic. See other thread.

I think if it's grounded in sober thought and real love it is. See so much bs about it, though.

Criticize? Of course. When people don't criticize you, it's often that they've given up hope.

Thank you for your post and for serving our country as well. I can tell you love this country quite a bit.

Personally I think that the word "patriotism" has been misused lately especially in American politics. Anyone who disagrees, questions or criticizes is immediately labled "unpatriotic" because that is easier than actually addressing what is brought up. To me that type of misuse is an insult to the people who truly love America and have put their lives on the line to defend it.

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Thank you for your post and for serving our country as well. I can tell you love this country quite a bit.

Personally I think that the word "patriotism" has been misused lately especially in American politics. Anyone who disagrees, questions or criticizes is immediately labled "unpatriotic" because that is easier than actually addressing what is brought up. To me that type of misuse is an insult to the people who truly love America and have put their lives on the line to defend it.

I agree with your assessment of the current usage of the word. I think that we can (and sometimes should question and/or criticize while still being patriotic. And while we're at it, can I just state for the record that patriotism does not consist of "Americans (or whatever country you may be from) rock and you suck!" That is not patriotism.

Edited by Wingnut
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Ok I do believe that I am patriotic. I don't have to prove my patriotism to any one. I know that I would do what I have to to stand up for my country and the values that I have learned by being a citizen of my country. I would hope that every patriotic citizen would take a long hard look at their government and would criticize what they feel needs criticizing. I don't want to argue about this because really it is my belief and tough if you don't agree.

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Ok I do believe that I am patriotic. I don't have to prove my patriotism to any one. I know that I would do what I have to to stand up for my country and the values that I have learned by being a citizen of my country. I would hope that every patriotic citizen would take a long hard look at their government and would criticize what they feel needs criticizing. I don't want to argue about this because really it is my belief and tough if you don't agree.

I do agree.

I think each person need to express their love of their country by using whatever talents Heavenly Father has given them. Some do it by running for office and trying to make an honest difference. Some do it by joining the military. Some do it by simply being the best American they can be in whatever their chosen vocation is. Some combine two or more of these.

Here's another way, and this is my favorite: I teach my kids to love their country as much as I do and to promote its well being in the best way they can. If that means military service, Great. If it means heading up the next major advance in technology, Great. if it simply means raising their children the same way, Great!

Anybody who presumes to judge the patriotism of others is making a mistake. It's like questioning someone's Christianity. How can you truly know what's in someone's heart?

Soldiers are honored as they are precisely because they do what most cannot or will not. THAT is why they deserve the kudos they've earned. To disparage the patriotism of others simply for not having served is to make a mockery of that honor.

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The whole subject of Patriotism and or Patriotc seems to me to mean something greater than idealism. Our soldiers for example demostrate their patriotism by their willingness to sacrifice of themselves for the greater benefit of the country(us). When one of our leaders is labeled a Patriot, it means to me he is willing to or has pay(paid) a sacrifice of some kind for the common or greater good of the country.

This great country was founded by leaders that "walked the talk" when it came to Patriotism. Something our leaders of today seem to have forgotten. It appears now that most put their own desires ahead of taking a position which is best for the country. They are more interested in buying vote than taking the high road. IMHO

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What does the word Patriotic mean to you?

Do you consider yourself patriotic? If so, in what way?

Is patriotism always a good thing? Why or why not?

Can someone be patriotic but still criticize aspects of their government? Why or why not?

To me, patriotism is a way of seeing ones own country as above others.

People ask you, "which is the best country in the world?" and most people answer MINE IS.

If Patriotism means just wanting the best out of a country, then its ok.

But that can still lead to seeing yours as top notch.

I'm definitely not patriotic - I mean, I want the good for my country, but at the same time, my country has no more right to good living and so forth than does iraq, iran, syria, afghanistan, pakistan, russia, egypt, [any country on earth here].

Patriotism is scarcely a good thing, because it can be used as just one more thing to make you feel and see yourself as seperate to others. The bottom line is that everyone is a human being. We are all born naked.

Again it would depend what sort of patriot you are. To a lot of, for example, old school american conservatives (who consequently dont like the way conservatism has gone in america). Patriotism is just freedom, true freedom. To speak as you wish, to be free of corporate companies, to live in a secular society (as many of the important founding fathers wanted). If I try to think of an example of such a person I instantly think of TheAmazingAtheist on youtube.

To me though, the government should be criticised by a patriot. Patriotism doesn't mean you're on the side of the government, infact I would say it's the exact opposite. Patriotism is really just your ideals for your world or society. So patriot to me rejects government, because the governments of this world only do very little good for their people.

Our soldiers for example demostrate their patriotism by their willingness to sacrifice of themselves for the greater benefit of the country

I find this a very interesting comment, and, all respect you for having that. But I'd appreciate if I can give my take on that, without flame wars coming from either side.

My mind turns to glue when I hear a statement like that. I cant get my mind past the fact that they are both illegal wars, and innocent people have been killed in the hundreds of thousands. Thats not patriotism, thats mass murder, and if you have to kill to uphold your societies ideals then there's obviously big flaws in our socieities. At the same time though, a lot of these soldiers dont understand what theyre getting themselves into ... training is different than killing many people every day. I think this is why a lot of soldiers end up with PTSD.

for the greater benefit of the country

And here's one more thing ... what gives your country, or any country the right to benifit more than the other?

Patriotism isn't good, in the sense that it applies labels "American, Australian, Iraqi, English, Icelandic, etc". Labels which seperate us can never be good. Those labels allow people in their minds to be more O.K with killing or harming someone who isnt from their tribe. This becomes a major problem when you realise we're all one.

And while we're at it, can I just state for the record that patriotism does not consist of "Americans (or whatever country you may be from) rock and you suck!" That is not patriotism.

No, but that's what it's commonly understood to be, so it doesn't really matter what it really means. Much the same way that most people in the world believe Jesus Christs birthday is 25th December.

If you disagree with anything I've said, please answer without slander.

Edited by Brenton
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What does the word Patriotic mean to you?

Do you consider yourself patriotic? If so, in what way?

Is patriotism always a good thing? Why or why not?

Can someone be patriotic but still criticize aspects of their government? Why or why not?

Patriotism is an extremely personal thing, and no one else has the right to judge one’s patriotism.

There are things many people do in the name of patriotism that I strongly disagree with. For example, after 9/11 when Bush said “You are either for us, or against us,” I was shocked at his audacity, and small mindedness.

It was, and is, possible to hate what the terrorists did, but not agree that I was either for or against my country, with no gray in between.

There is always gray area in between.

Just because I refuse to put a magnet on my car does not mean I am unpatriotic. Just because I have been adamantly against this war since a year before it started does not make me unpatriotic. Just because I think people have let themselves be duped by the Bush cabal does not mean I am not a patriot.

To the contrary, I am a patriot when I invoke my First Amendment rights, and speak up about these, in my opinion, trite expressions of patriotism,

When I am vocal about the rhetoric people from both the far left and far right buy into, I am a patriot.

I am a patriot when I express my outrage about my country’s use of torture, an obscenity that will take people decades to recover from, both Americans and non.

I am also a patriot in that I want our country healed form the horrific things its leaders have done in the name of God.

I could go on, but I think you get the idea. Unfortunately, when I don‘t follow the “patriot“ crowd, they are adamant that I am not a patriot, and should just keep my mouth shut if I don’t support our leader’s actions. I am told I do not deserve to live in MY country.

But I do deserve to live in America. I deserve the right to continue expressing my concerns. And every time I invoke that right, I am being patriotic.

I do want to say that I finally understood that people who did put a magnet on their car did so to express their support of the troops, and it took me a while to understand that was probably the only thing they could do. I did some soulsearching about other actions I have criticized, and realized my thinking was black and white, not admitting the grays.

So, while I disagree with many people’s political leanings, I don’t doubt, for one moment, that they are as patriotic as they come, including those who judge me unpatriotic because I refuse to put a picture of a crying Eagle on my wall.

Don’t ever question my patriotism.

Elphaba

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What does the word Patriotic mean to you?

Patriotism is love and loyalty toward one's country.

Do you consider yourself patriotic? If so, in what way?

Yes and no. Yes because I am an American servicemember who has sworn to uphold and defend the Constitution of the US. I have no reservations whatsoever about dying for my country and its citizens.

No because, while I love America and its citizens, I can't help but feel that patriotism is just a hop and a skip away from nationalism, which takes love and loyalty to the next level: pride. I'm not proud to be an American. I am grateful that I was born into a free American society, but I see no reason to take pride in it. Nations are just social constructs meant to divide the people of the world. Americans are not, by nature, any better than Brits, Africans, or Mexicans. We are all represented by different flags, but we are united in our humanity. I am proud to be a human being.

Is patriotism always a good thing? Why or why not?

I already partially covered this one. Patriotism is good because it can unite societies that are facing tough times, the way that America was united after 9/11. It can potentially be bad if it is taken too far to the point that an us vs them mentality arises. Our country may be better than others, but we as citizens of that country are no better or worse than citizens of other countries.

Can someone be patriotic but still criticize aspects of their government? Why or why not?

I believe that criticism is the truest form of patriotism. After all, how can you say that you love your country if you're not willing to speak up when you see something wrong with it?

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What does the word Patriotic mean to you?

Do you consider yourself patriotic? If so, in what way?

Is patriotism always a good thing? Why or why not?

Can someone be patriotic but still criticize aspects of their government? Why or why not?

Is patriotism being a good "citizen"? Maybe. Does it mean doing your part in preserving the ideals of our founding fathers....I think so. Does it mean Americanism above all else or fierce nationalism......depends. Can we all be better citizens and more patriotic...absolutely. How so? Perhaps by remembering that our differences are also our great source of strengthand by never forgetting the sacrifice of those who made our freedom possible and by respecting the opinions of Americans who disagree with current military operations.

I am patriotic....I am very blessed to live in this great nation. I think patriotism is always good.....not nationalism. Of course you can be critical of your government and still be patriotic.......... the nature of political discourse is criticism of the other party's ideas. The War in Iraq is very unpopular.....I support the war...but not how it has been waged. I respect those who disagree....but the problem I have is the fact that the war was used as a political wedge and I feel for the troops who have to deal with that.

And GW said, "If your not with us, your with the terrorists."

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To me, patriotism means loving and being devoted to my country. It means being thankful to those before me who laid their lives down against the forces of evil who would take power for themselves or to captivate others. Loving my country and being devoted to it means that I will lay down my life for my neighbor or my friend or any fellow American who's liberty is in peril by said forces of evil.

There are many great examples of true patriots in American history. Many from the Revolutionary war come to mind. Any person who voluntarily enlists in the military for the sake of defending our constitutional and inalienable rights, in my opinion is a patriot. I believe Captain Moroni, the stripling warriors of Helaman's army and others who defending their liberty are also patriots.

Furthermore, patriotism, in my opinion isn't limited to those who sacrifice their lives in our defense, but also those who sacrifice their time to serve our country in more social capacities. A true American patriot respects our flag because he/she understands what it represents. It's not just a random selection of colors and shapes.

Just my two cents.

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And GW said, "If your not with us, your with the terrorists."

Gosh.... I guess I am a terrorist. How come somebody didn't send me the memo? I would have put OBL on my Thanksgiving invite list. :rolleyes:

Back on subject..... I agree with tha last posters definition (minus the LDS specific part)! :)

I was correcting Elphaba's statement...........and he wasn't referring to you. We all might at least be thankful for the Presidents efforts to kep us safe after 911.....that could be Patriotic, whether we agre with the war or not....imo.

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It is no laughing matter, the fact that via the Patriot Act, an executive designation of "terrorist" is all that is needed for you or I to be taken from our home and held in prison without a warrant, charges, legal representation, a trial, or any time frame for release. It is difficult to concieve of something less constitutional, less American.

-a-train

Edited by a-train
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I was correcting Elphaba's statement...........and he wasn't referring to you. We all might at least be thankful for the Presidents efforts to kep us safe after 911.....that could be Patriotic, whether we agre with the war or not....imo.

I respect his efforts and anybody who would attempt that impossible and dangerous job. But because I do not agree with what he did means I should be getting out the prayer mats for OBL after he gets the Thanksgiving invite? That was sort of what the quote suggested afterall.

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What does the word Patriotic mean to you?

It means being loyal to and upholding those ideals that you believe in.

Do you consider yourself patriotic? If so, in what way?

Yes. I am loyal to those causes and ideals I believe in. I am patriotic towards rights of life, liberty, and property. And to other principles not of democracy but of freedom.

Is patriotism always a good thing? Why or why not?

It depends on what you are patriotic towards.

Can someone be patriotic but still criticize aspects of their government? Why or why not?

Yes. Especially if the government is violating the ideals a person believes in. Or even worse the government is violating the ideals it is supposed to represent!

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I respect his efforts and anybody who would attempt that impossible and dangerous job. But because I do not agree with what he did means I should be getting out the prayer mats for OBL after he gets the Thanksgiving invite? That was sort of what the quote suggested afterall.

Unless you are a Nation, Rastler.......he wasn't talking about you. If you read his words he was specifically addressing nations that provide aid and support to terrorists.Sounds reasonable to me....I mean at least be intellectually honest about what the man said and the obvious meaning of his words.

"We will starve terrorists of funding, turn them one against another, drive them from place to place until there is no refuge or no rest.

And we will pursue nations that provide aid or safe haven to terrorism. Every nation in every region now has a decision to make: Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists.

From this day forward, any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime. Our nation has been put on notice, we're not immune from attack. We will take defensive measures against terrorism to protect Americans

Edited by bytor2112
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Unless you are a Nation, Rastler.......he wasn't talking about you. If you read his words he was specifically addressing nations that provide aid and support to terrorists.Sounds reasonable to me....I mean at least be intellectually honest about what the man said and the obvious meaning of his words.

"We will starve terrorists of funding, turn them one against another, drive them from place to place until there is no refuge or no rest.

And we will pursue nations that provide aid or safe haven to terrorism. Every nation in every region now has a decision to make: Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists.

From this day forward, any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime. Our nation has been put on notice, we're not immune from attack. We will take defensive measures against terrorism to protect Americans

Pakistan and Saudia Arabia do this to this day. While we have sent some missles into Pakistan of late, I can't help but notice we are not at war with them.

But I guess the patriotism thing where.... "you are either for us, or against us", is a lot easier to grasp then the reality of the various geopolitical dynamics as to why we have to wink at what Pakistan and Saudi Arabia (among others) does.

Which gets right back to the - in this country - you are either with us, a Patriot, or against us, supporting terrorsim. Which is nothing more than cynical political game playing.

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"We will starve terrorists of funding, turn them one against another, drive them from place to place until there is no refuge or no rest."

Terrorism is a big lie. An enemy image to "keep us together".

"turn them one against another"

Thats exactly what is happening, but it's more turning the citizens on the whole against each other, and that's how you sustain a war, the corporations profit.

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