Patriotism


DigitalShadow
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Elphaba.....first of all, you have quoted a bunch of guys that want to sell books

Bytor,

Usually I let these kinds of disagreements go. But not this time.

These “bunch of guys” were all top officials in Bush’s administration. George Tenet was the head of the CIA for crying out loud--not just a lackey out to make a quick buck off the president.

All four books I referenced were written by people who were as close to the president as it gets. They were in positions to know how Bush operated, and that is something we, as Americans, should know as well.

I explained this in my last post, but you missed it: One of the books was written by Bush’s press secretary, Scott McLellan, who had believed in the president, and was a trusted member of the Bush team from when Bush was governor of Texas. He was as loyal to Bush as is possible--he still is.

However, he acknowledges the reasons Bush has been so negligent and why he’s made so many mistakes that could have been avoided.

Additionally, I said these books were four out of many, most of them also written by high-level appointees who were able to see Bush’s incompetence firsthand. So it is wrong to dismiss the books I referenced out of hand.

I will say one thing about these men, and that is that it infuriates me they did not speak up at the time the things they write about were happening. Even Federal Chairman Alan Greenspan, who essentially oversaw our economy until his resignation, said he knew Bush’s economic policies were dangerous, but he did not say anything at the time! I hold all of these men accountable.

and no one wants to buy a book that is favorable to a sitting president.

Of course they would, especially with THIS sitting president. If the favorable book were written by a former high-level appointee, as is true with the books I referenced, it would be flying off the shelves.

Americans are craving to know what is really going on with Bush right now, positive or negative. Our country has been traumatized over and over and over again during his tenure, but he has bungled things so badly, people are afraid. They want to be reassured Bush is up to his job, although, I suspect only his loyal base actually thinks he would be. Everyone else has had it with him.

I was merely pointing out the misinterpretation of the comments

from his speeches.

Oh please.

You weren’t “merely” doing anything. You were angry because you didn’t like what I was saying about Bush, and you crossed the line with your “intellectually dishonest” comment.

As far as misinterpreting Bush’s comments, he has used the “with us or against us” mantra many times, not just immediately after 9/11. And considering how many people, including American citizens, have been detained with no due process, languishing in prison for years, it’s obvious Bush was talking about all of us, not just rogue countries hiding terrorists. Google Jose Padilla some day, and you’ll see who Bush was talking about.

In fact, if what you say is true, common sense says that is where his focus should have been, and not Iraq. For example, it doesn‘t take an Einstein to know his priority should have been Afghanistan; he even had advisors tell him so.

But his stubborn and arrogant nature kept him from listening to his experts. And so here we are, with the Taliban resurging. Once again Afghanistan is being ruled by religious fanatics, who by the way, love to see women buried up to their heads and then stoned to death, because they were walking down the street without the burkha on. You gotta love those honor killings.

I suspect this is an issue on which we’ll never agree, and that is okay. But I will continue to talk any way I want to about the man, and you can continue not liking it. I don’t mind being the ball and you can be the bat, but can we play without the insults?

Elphaba

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You weren’t “merely” doing anything. You were angry because you didn’t like what I was saying about Bush, and you crossed the line with your “intellectually dishonest” comment.

I know Elphaba is a witch....but a mind reader too??? I get it...you don't like Bush. He has very low approval ratings......not as low as the Democratic controlled Congress, but low. McClellan is an unemployed turncoat looking to make a buck and Abdullah al-Muhajir (Jose Padilla) was convicted of conspiring to kill people in overseas jihad. Your comments sound like talking points for Air America or Bill Mahr. Sorry I disagree with you. I am ready for Bush to go, but I don't lay the blame for America' problems soley at his feet...it's not deserved and just because you think it ....doesn't make it so.As I stated I am not a Bush fan.....I wasn't a Clinton fan either, but he wasn't the anti-Christ either and I would defend cliched attacks that are flung his way as well. As for the "intellectually dishonest" comment.....I will try to remember my side of the line.

Before we continue to get into a wee-weeing competition....let's just agree to disagree and move on. Oh and am I right that Elphaba is a witch.....my wife is reading some book about witches and I scanned it a bit and found a character named Elphaba....thought I should mention that so you won't think I am hurling insults.

Edited by bytor2112
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I know Elphaba is a witch....but a mind reader too???
No, just a post reader.
I get it...you don't like Bush. He has very low approval ratings......not as low as the Democratic controlled Congress, but low.
I agree with those ratings, including those of the Democratic congress.

McClellan is an unemployed turncoat looking to make a buck
That's ridiculous. But let's look at it from a different perspective. What part of what he wrote is inaccurate? He said Bush rushed into war in Iraq, and that Scooter Libby and Karl Rove were involved in the Valerie Plame outing, just to name two incidents, and both are true. Actually, his book just reinforced what everyone was coming to realize anway.

Additionally, what about Tenet? O’Neill? Clarke? What’s your excuse for them?

and Abdullah al-Muhajir (Jose Padilla)
I agree with you that I should have given his Muslim name in my previous posts. It was irresponsible on my part. The truth is, I forgot about it, and yes, I know that is a HUGE omission. Thank you for adding it.

was convicted of conspiring to kill people in overseas jihad.
Yes he was, and everyone who is familiar with his case knows, or at the very least suspects, he was charged with conspiracy because there was no evidence he was guilty of the alleged “dirty bomb” crime, for which the government had already held him for THREE years.

Three years with no charges filed, no lawyers, no way to defend himself, and no due process, which was guaranteed to every American citizen at the time of his arrest. But then, the Constitution has been shredded and laid at the bottom of a birdcage, so no foul.

(Okay, the birdcage was hyperbole, but it was good.)

Additionally, al-Muhajir was tortured while in custody. Conveniently, however, the DVD recording of him being tortured, has disappeared.

Bottom line, the government imprisoned al-Muhajir for three years without filing any formal charges. And then suddenly when the Supreme Court was ready to address his case, mere days before this deadline, the government filed the conspiracy charges, and the dirty bomb accusation disappeared. And in doing so, the Supreme Court's plans became moot. It doesn‘t take a witch‘s magic ball to see what that was about.

Your comments sound like talking points for Air America or Bill Mah[e]r.
Thank you. I would say yours sound like Michael Savage but that gives him too much credit. :P

Sorry I disagree with you. I am ready for Bush to go, but I don't lay the blame for America' problems soley at his feet...it's not deserved
Neither do I, and I never said I did.

I’ve specifically talked about the so-called war on terror, including the colossal and obscene atrocity that is Iraq. And yes, they both can be laid at his feet, and his feet should be shredded in pieces like so many Iraqi children’s were.

I’m curious, though. Just whose feet do you think they should lay at? Bush is the leader of the free world, the “decider,” the big Kahuna. Isn’t that where the buck stops?

Actually, come to think of it, you’re right. Bush had no idea what was going on because his brain actually dwelled in Karl Rove’s head, thus Rove's nickname "Bush's Brain."

Wait, I meant Cheney’s head. No, I mean Rove. Yes, definitely Rove. Except for that one time it was in Wolfowitz's, who lost it.

and just because you think it ....doesn't make it so.
True. And just because you sound like a normal person, doesn’t make it so, right?

The “doesn’t make it so,“ is an obtuse phrase empty of any meaning, as you can apply it to anything.

but he wasn't the anti-Christ either
I never said he was.

and I would defend cliched attacks that are flung his way as well.
You better make sure Pale isn’t around if you do. He HATES Clinton.

As for the "intellectually dishonest" comment.....I will try to remember my side of the line.
Thank you.
Before we continue to get into a wee-weeing competition
Sorry, but we're already in one. Please try to aim the other way, ok?
Oh and am I right that Elphaba is a witch.....my wife is reading some book about witches and I scanned it a bit and found a character named Elphaba....thought I should mention that so you won't think I am hurling insults.

Well, duh. Why do you think I chose the name?

Elphaba

:witch:

Edited by Elphaba
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What does the word Patriotic mean to you?

Do you consider yourself patriotic? If so, in what way?

Is patriotism always a good thing? Why or why not?

Can someone be patriotic but still criticize aspects of their government? Why or why not?

I don't really like the words: patriotic or patriot...they are words for individuals and that really affects the whole concept of being proud of your country as an individualistic thing rather than a group thing.

It divides people into those that are patriotic and those that are traitors...and that's just a matter of opinion...usually someone else's. Long live political diversity.

We can have no pride in our country without others taking pride in it as well.

I take pride in my country and it's achievements...I mourn the losses and the failures and the downturns. We're all in it together rowing the same boat. We may have different ideas about what is best for our country...and that's a good thing...flexibility, diversity and the ability to adapt and change direction...this is what contributes to the whole. If we lose that..we stagnate. I hope we never have a government that we can't criticise. That doesn't bode well for democracy...it's not working if there is no democratic process.

War is unfortunate...it sends back another nation in terms of economic growth and emergence. It has a terrible price for our own nation in terms of life and cost. No one should ever profit from being involved in a war...except by achieving peace...and hopefully that is possible. Sometimes war happens: we do what we can.

We all serve our country. Some serve others more. Some get little credit. Some are not given enough credit. And then there are those that receive public awards and are held dear. But that doesn't matter. If we don't serve our country then the nation would fall apart because we all help do our bit in keeping things functioning the way they are supposed to and at an optimum level. This is called citizenship.

We don't tend to see the worst aspects of patriotism here...mainly because it wouldn't be thought of as patriotic or un-Australian. We value quiet achievers...those that just get in and do the job without a whole lot of fuss. Possibly the worst of our so-called patriots are Pauline Hanson-ish rednecks...our isolation does mean we have some elements of racism...and with high immigration rates we have pockets of areas in cities that are overloaded and stressed. Mostly patriotism has to do with identity: vegemite, sport, hills hoists and victor lawnmowers...celebrating the small stuff...we are who we are...part of a group.

Possibly our worse aspect of national pride is thinking we are bigger in importance than we actually are...we're a bunch of Shire Hobbits : )

I am proud that countries can work together with the policies they're putting into place for the economic crisis...let's hope it works out and doesn't fizzle and that it leads to greater co-operation in other areas as well. Global citizenship is important.

Heck, I'm proud of other countries. It doesn't decrease the pride I have in my own nation any. There's a lot to celebrate and take pride in...as well as those things to sorrow over. It's not as fierce as the love I have for my own country...but my own country is better for all the good that is achieved in the world: stable governments, strong economies, scientific endeavours and so on...we build our future on it.

Patriotism with blinkers has had disastrous consequences for other nations...and for those countries that foster it. Hey, a little self-interest is healthy...but excessiveness is not good...even disastrous.

Edited by WANDERER
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I believe patriotism has to be about principles, not geography. My favorite patriotic hymn is "America, the Beautiful". Why? The Star Spangle Banner has little on the nation's principles or tack, focused on a small naval battle in the war of 1812. Most of the song could have been played for a hundred other national flags over the centuries.

But America the Beautiful explains in poetic imagery not only the beauties of the oceans and Rocky Mountains, but of "heroes proved", "pilgrim feet", "patriot dream" - all leading to the striving to create a city on the hill, an alabaster city of God and freedom. A dream all nations could aspire to.

I fear we have lost much of that dream, and replaced it with capitalism and materialism. There's nothing wrong with capitalism, per se, except that it is not a reason to praise our nation. It is freedom and self-responsibility that promote capitalism, and not the other way around. Otherwise, China would be a very free nation today. But we've lost the dream of heroes, pilgrims, and patriots, and replaced it with encouragement from our nation's leaders to "go shopping" in the midst of a national crisis. What the heck kind of priorities are those???? Where is the sacrifice that creates true heroes, rather than football players and movie stars that can't keep out of jail for our children to emulate?

Seems we need some serious re-prioritizing here. Thank God we're about to get a wake up call. I'm just not certain that Americans are going to awake to the reality of their choices and choose, as Pres Uchtdorf taught us, to "lift where we stand."

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I fear we have lost much of that dream, and replaced it with capitalism and materialism. There's nothing wrong with capitalism, per se, except that it is not a reason to praise our nation. It is freedom and self-responsibility that promote capitalism, and not the other way around. Otherwise, China would be a very free nation today. But we've lost the dream of heroes, pilgrims, and patriots, and replaced it with encouragement from our nation's leaders to "go shopping" in the midst of a national crisis. What the heck kind of priorities are those???? Where is the sacrifice that creates true heroes, rather than football players and movie stars that can't keep out of jail for our children to emulate?

Seems we need some serious re-prioritizing here. Thank God we're about to get a wake up call. I'm just not certain that Americans are going to awake to the reality of their choices and choose, as Pres Uchtdorf taught us, to "lift where we stand."

Great post. I agree 100%. Free markets and unchecked corporate greed have run this country into the ground. As much as I pity those who have lost so much in the last several weeks, I must admit that I've gotten a small amount of satisfaction from watching our system of free market capitalism begin to self-destruct. I just hope that our leaders make the change that is necessary and don't just set the system up to fail again.

I think the LDS people are waking up, but much of the nation will go on in drunkenness to destruction.

Personally, I try to avoid drunkenness as much as I can. But today's my birthday, so I'll probably be making an exception tonight.

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Great post. I agree 100%. Free markets and unchecked corporate greed have run this country into the ground. As much as I pity those who have lost so much in the last several weeks, I must admit that I've gotten a small amount of satisfaction from watching our system of free market capitalism begin to self-destruct. I just hope that our leaders make the change that is necessary and don't just set the system up to fail again.

That's like saying that if you train to be an exceptional runner, and accidentely twist your ankle, that you should radically alter your routine. What the solution to this mess would be is to allow these big corporations to collapse -- the same way that little mom and pop businesses do everyday. Yet these corporations are allowed to benefit from socialism while middle class people have to live by the rules of the free market. Maybe it's because some of these questionable corporations donate so much money to politicians which is the concept that Adam Smith in The Wealth of Nations warned against.

Remember, Robin Hood was no socialist -- he was an anti-government militia organizer.

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I am a huge fan for what Bush did in the days after 9/11. I am a huge fan of what originally went down in Afganistan. Heck, I was even cool with taking Saddam out. But after that it has been a mess.

Does saying this make me unpatriotic?

No. I think the wheels came off President Bush's cart a couple of years ago. But, that is the new warfare. It's not about two armies facing off at Stalingrad or Kursk. It's a small group of extremists who can cause chaos, affect market economies, take out 10 square city blocks with a suitcase bomb. (See Ian Fleming- Moonraker, M's dialogue) Terrorism is the new warfare. "Big" countries: the US, Russia, China probably (notice I said probably) won't square off and disintigrate each other. As long as the West refuses to cut the ties with mid-Eastern oil (easier said than done), the exremist groups that are being funded there will continue to thrive. To fight them won't take "armies" but well gathered intelligence, elite anti-terrorist units that might consist of no more than 20-50 individuals (or less, even single assassins), and the understanding of the American people that we need to be as ruthless towards them as they have more than willingly showed to be toward us.

Where's Bond when we need him? Or Nicholai Hel?

But we in the US are allowed to express our Patriotism in any way we choose. Cindy Sheehan, most of us regard her as nuts, but she lost a son in the mid-East, and now is an activist because of it. Is she unpatriotic?

O43

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That's like saying that if you train to be an exceptional runner, and accidentely twist your ankle, that you should radically alter your routine. What the solution to this mess would be is to allow these big corporations to collapse -- the same way that little mom and pop businesses do everyday. Yet these corporations are allowed to benefit from socialism while middle class people have to live by the rules of the free market. Maybe it's because some of these questionable corporations donate so much money to politicians which is the concept that Adam Smith in The Wealth of Nations warned against.

The things is that it's not just the corporations and their rich board members who suffer when these big companies fail. The damage hits the workforce and ruins middle class investments. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a big fan of this corporate socialism that we've concocted as a solution. The companies that have collapsed need to take their hits and we need to use that $700 billion to help the people who have lost their retirement investments and are struggling to keep a roof over their heads. The middle class can't survive this type of economic environment.

Remember, Robin Hood was no socialist -- he was an anti-government militia organizer.

Now you're just getting into semantics. :P

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Unless you are a Nation, Rastler.......he wasn't talking about you. If you read his words he was specifically addressing nations that provide aid and support to terrorists.Sounds reasonable to me....I mean at least be intellectually honest about what the man said and the obvious meaning of his words.

"We will starve terrorists of funding, turn them one against another, drive them from place to place until there is no refuge or no rest.

And we will pursue nations that provide aid or safe haven to terrorism. Every nation in every region now has a decision to make: Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists.

From this day forward, any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime. Our nation has been put on notice, we're not immune from attack. We will take defensive measures against terrorism to protect Americans

Sad to see an American President so blatantly lie.

I can think of no harsher, despotic, evil, terrorist nation than North Korea, yet, our President just removed them from the "terrorist nation" list...

What a joke! Wake up to a sense of your awful situation, before it is to late.

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