Q&A with Bro. Kristoffer...

[KristofferUmfrey]

Rameumpton has begun a dialogue with me in a topic in the Prop. 8 forum. I decided it would be better to move the discussion to a more appropriate area and within it's own topic. I am starting by posting his first major questioning post to me with my answer, and his follow up post to my answer to his first post...

[KristofferUmfrey]

Originally Posted by rameumptom View Post

So, what is your standing in this church you are establishing? Are you a prophet, THE prophet, or just a caretaker (as Sidney Rigdon offered to become)?

And why would God select you to establish another Restorationist Church, wherein you accept the baptism and priesthood authority from the others, when they should be sufficient if they do hold that priesthood authority? In fact, if they do hold the priesthood authority, seems to me that their revelations and prophecies would be as valid as your own. Doesn't that make you redundant?

Finally, you do realize that most of the Lectures of Faith were written by Sidney Rigdon, and not Joseph Smith? While I accept the LoF as inspired, they are also early teachings in the Church. Joseph was taught line upon line, and advanced concepts came later - particularly in the Nauvoo era.

Finally, you do realize that most of the Lectures of Faith were written by Sidney Rigdon, and not Joseph Smith? While I accept the LoF as inspired, they are also early teachings in the Church. Joseph was taught line upon line, and advanced concepts came later - particularly in the Nauvoo era.

Why is it that you accept the Bible, Book of Mormon, Lectures on Faith and obviously the Articles of Faith (or some of them), but seem to give a pass on the D&C/Book of Commandments? Joseph taught that God also is an embodied Spirit. After all, what is more perfect, the Father as only a Spirit, or the Son who is an embodied Spirit?

What are your views on the King Follett Discourse and Sermon in the Grove?

What are your views on the temple and its work? Do you believe in baptism for the dead? Endowments? Sealings of families for eternity?

So, what is your standing in this church you are establishing? Are you a prophet, THE prophet, or just a caretaker (as Sidney Rigdon offered to become)?

I guess I would be the "founding Elder", but in reality am just an Elder and will take my place in the larger Elder's Council as one it gets established.

And why would God select you to establish another Restorationist Church, wherein you accept the baptism and priesthood authority from the others, when they should be sufficient if they do hold that priesthood authority? In fact, if they do hold the priesthood authority, seems to me that their revelations and prophecies would be as valid as your own. Doesn't that make you redundant?

I have no idea why... I am not worthy and have not asked for the calling, but like Amulek I have been called and must obey. I believe part of the reason is the Lord is leading us back to observance of His Feast and none sacrifice and ordinance laws, and as I have recognized the patterns, like Alma recognized the truth in Abinadi's words, I have been called to bring forth a portion of that work. I believe the authority is sufficient to perform proper baptism and the laying on of hands, I don't , however, believe that having said authority makes one impervious to teaching after their own thinking. So no, I don't feel I am being redundant.

Finally, you do realize that most of the Lectures of Faith were written by Sidney Rigdon, and not Joseph Smith? While I accept the LoF as inspired, they are also early teachings in the Church. Joseph was taught line upon line, and advanced concepts came later - particularly in the Nauvoo era.

I have a very clear knowledge of who assembled the Lectures, and I believe it is the most accurate description of the Godhead. I believe that Masonic influences that came into the church may have had an affect on Joseph's teachings in this regard. Feel free to disagree.

How do you get past the AoF that establishes that a man must be "called of God" and by the laying on of hands by one in authority, so as to preside and hold the keys of authority? Do you believe in the keys of priesthood, and if so, are they upon the earth at this time? If so, who has them?

I don't feel I need to "get past it". The AofF says that one must be called by prophecy and the laying on of hands by those in authority. The one in authority is one who has already been called and ministered in that position. I received my Elders calling through proper lineage. I believe the keys of the priesthood (I prefer Holy Order) to administer the saving ordinances of the gospel referred to by Jesus in 3rd Nephi are on the earth and amoung many men in varying Restoration churches.

Why is it that you accept the Bible, Book of Mormon, Lectures on Faith and obviously the Articles of Faith (or some of them), but seem to give a pass on the D&C/Book of Commandments? Joseph taught that God also is an embodied Spirit. After all, what is more perfect, the Father as only a Spirit, or the Son who is an embodied Spirit?

I believe that once Joseph had the Urim & Thummim taken away and gave away the Seer Stone his revelations were subject to his understanding and the influence of those who surrounding him gaining influence in his life. The scriptures no where teach that God, the Father, is an embodied Spirit, so I feel safe in my belief on the subject.

What are your views on the King Follett Discourse and Sermon in the Grove?

I feel the transcription of the King Follett discourse is dubious as Willard Richards is the main person to report such a teaching of the event, and Willard Richards hands (and hand writing) seem to be all oveearly church histories diaries etc.. with editorial changes. You are going to have to illuminate me on the "Sermon in the Grove"

What are your views on the temple and its work? Do you believe in baptism for the dead? Endowments? Sealings of families for eternity?

I do not believe those things are scriptural or came through the inspiration of God. To properly illuinate my views on the subject would be offensive and cause contention so I won't go into it further.

__________________

Edited December 13, 2008 by KristofferUmfrey

[KristofferUmfrey]

Rameumpton 2nd post to me. I have explained that out of a desire to not offended or cause contention I will not discuss the LDS Endowment or my feelings on it other then to say I believe it is not scriptural. I will answer the first part of his post as time permits this weekend...

"I am beginning to understand. You are suggesting that Joseph was correct in the beginning, but strayed later?

So, you would suggest that Joseph Smith ended up a fallen prophet, or at least wrong in his later years?

Willard Richards' hands were on a lot of the early writings, because God had called him to be one of Joseph's scribe. And his is just one of several versions of the King Follet Discourse, all of which agree in most particulars. How do you account for that?

Finally, we do not need the Mosaic laws ordinances or sacrifices anymore. The Lord fulfilled them, and so stated in 3 Nephi 8-10 as he called the Nephites to stop offering sacrifices of animals and begin offering up a broken heart and contrite spirit. The Sacrament was instituted by Christ among both the Jews and Nephites as the replacement for the ordinances and festivals of the lesser priesthood, along with baptism by immersion in water.

The higher priesthood's ordinances are fulfilled in the temple. I would recommend you do an indepth study of the temple ordinances, and you'll be amazed at how it ties into all the ancient Jewish rites, but on a higher and more correct level.

D&C 84 teaches us that Moses was given the Higher priesthood of Melchizedek, which holds the key of the mystery of godliness. It is in the ordinances of the Melchizedek Priesthood that God the Father is revealed to mankind. Moses knew this and tried to have the children of Israel enter into God's presence on Mt Sinai. They refused to do so, and so God took Moses and the Melchizedek Priesthood out of their presence. He gave them the lesser priesthood of Aaronic, with its festivals, animal sacrifices, and rituals. As Nephi taught, these were given to prepare the people to believe in Christ (2 Ne 25).

The Aaronic Priesthood holds the keys of the outward/Terrestrial things: baptism by immersion for remission of sins, gospel of repentance, ministry of angels.

But the fulness comes with the Melchizedek Priesthood, which holds the promises of baptism by fire/Holy Ghost, and the key to the mysteries of God.

IOW, with the Aaronic Priesthood, I prepare to stand in the presence of angels and be like them. With the Melchizedek Priesthood, I prepare to stand in God's presence and be like Him. The temple is exactly for that purpose. It prepares us, literally and figuratively, to enter into God's presence and to be like Him, through the covenants and ordinances received.

Here are a couple of great blogs that help to show just how our modern temple ordinances prepare us, as did the ancient temples, to be in God's presence.

Heavenly Ascents

TempleStudy.com - LDS (Mormon) Temple Study Blog

These will give you an idea of it all. The problem with your attack on the Masonic concepts of the temple is, many of them are found in the Book of Mormon! We find the temple endowment throughout the book of Mormon, something Joseph could not have imagined when translating it in his early 20s.

The endowment expresses through symbolism and analogy our personal creation and trip through life, including our period of innocence, loss/fall from innocence, our struggle in this life, our preparations to become holy, and our eventual entrance into God's presence. This story of Adam and Eve is an ancient one that is found in many ancient Judaeo-Christian stories, the Book of Mormon, the Book of Moses and the Book of Abraham.

1 Nephi 1 tells of Lehi's initial ascent experience (which is very similar to Isaiah's ascent/theophany in the early Ascension of Isaiah text.. This is all very related to the temple, as are Lehi/Nephi's Vision of the Tree of Life, Jacob preaching at the temple, King Benjamin's sermon, Alma's teachings in ch 9-13, Jesus' teachings in 3 Nephi 11-28, and the Brother of Jared seeing the finger of God. And yes, these are not all the instances that relate directly to the temple endowment, but are just examples.

Joseph used the Masonic endowment to create his inspired endowment, because it had many elements he recognized from the Bible and Book of Mormon and his other revelations that he could readily use. The keys of the endowment are the covenants made, and the preparations taken to enter into God's presence.

To not accept the temple and the ordinances within it is to deny a major tenet of the Book of Mormon: preparing to enter into the presence of God by practicing the theophany. This theophany is expressed in King Benjamin's ancient Year Rite ceremony, wherein the ancient king presents himself as the savior of the people, standing in for the King of Heaven. The people, therefore, are symbolically brought into the presence of God, in the guise of their earthly king. He teaches them and then has them receive those teachings with a covenant. They are given a new name in connection with the covenant they make. In this instance, they are now called the children of Christ.

Your new religion does not begin to offer such power and strength in priesthood authority. You are offering Melchizedek Priesthood authority, but none of the power is there."

[rameumptom]

I have only discussed the endowment in light of the scriptures. Those portions that are laid out in the scriptures are okay to discuss.

You dismiss the endowment, yet I've shown several examples of the endowment being used in the Book of Mormon.

I'm also looking forward to your answer regarding Holy Ghost = Heavenly Mother.

[Justice]

Do you believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is false?

[KristofferUmfrey]

I have only discussed the endowment in light of the scriptures. Those portions that are laid out in the scriptures are okay to discuss.

You dismiss the endowment, yet I've shown several examples of the endowment being used in the Book of Mormon.

I'm also looking forward to your answer regarding Holy Ghost = Heavenly Mother.

As I stated I will not discuss the LDS Endowment so as not to cause offensive and contention. I know from experience that even when asked to discuss it by a faithful a LDS, I am the one who gets branded contentious and am seen as the source of the discussion.

Tex also looks forward to my answer on that, it will be forth coming, no worries mate.

[KristofferUmfrey]

Do you believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is false?

I believe it has inherited doctrines, beliefs, and traditions that are false, but I do believe it is a Branch of the true church brought back to the earth in 1829, and when the One Mighty and Strong comes to gather Israel into the New Jerusalem, like all the other Branches of the Church, it will be brought into order and united under one banner in Zion.

[pam]

Question. Why do we have this under LDS Discussion when it's about a new Church with some doctrines that are contrary to the LDS religion?

[KristofferUmfrey]

Question. Why do we have this under LDS Discussion when it's about a new Church with some doctrines that are contrary to the LDS religion?

You are a moderator Pam, move it where you would like. I just picked a spot I thought was good when moving the discussion, but I am more then happy to be overruled and let you move it somewhere else.

Deal?

[KristofferUmfrey]

You are a moderator Pam, move it where you would like. I just picked a spot I thought was good when moving the discussion, but I am more then happy to be overruled and let you move it somewhere else.

Deal?

Ugh, you moved me in with the "Christians"???

I guess I'll survive

Love you anyways

[pam]

Only other place I could find that was somewhat appropriate instead of being under LDS discussion.

[pam]

Now Kriss...be good. Remember this IS an LDS site. Off to a wedding.

[Palerider]

Now Kriss...be good. Remember this IS an LDS site. Off to a wedding.

get going then...:)

[KristofferUmfrey]

Another couple of questions, if you don't mind....

Were you ever baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and since had your membership removed from the rolls of said Church, by excommunication, at your own request, or any other means?

About Thomas Monson.......Do you consider him a prophet, seer, and revelator who holds the "keys" to the Priesthood in our day?

Thanks,

Old Tex

I was baptized a 8 into the LDS Church. I was properly excommunicated from the LDS church for something which I came forward to church authorities about (ie... I wasn't caught). Which is why I have stated I don't feel worthy for what the Lord has called me to and I can only go by faith on the promptings He has given me.

I feel Thomas Monson has a testimony of Jesus and thus is a prophet as, "the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus." and he may be a revelator at times, I don't however believe he is a Seer, as I don't believe there is currently a Seer on the earth. I believe Joseph Smith was the last Seer until he had the Urim & Thummim taken from him and he gave away the Seer Stone. I believe the next Seer will be the One Mighty and Strong. I don't believe Thomas Monson is the one person with the "keys" of the priesthood.

[Justice]

I guess my question is do you believe the LDS church has ordained Priesthood authority?

[KristofferUmfrey]

I guess my question is do you believe the LDS church has ordained Priesthood authority?

I do believe the LDS church has authorized priesthood.

[rameumptom]

I was baptized a 8 into the LDS Church. I was properly excommunicated from the LDS church for something which I came forward to church authorities about (ie... I wasn't caught). Which is why I have stated I don't feel worthy for what the Lord has called me to and I can only go by faith on the promptings He has given me.

I feel Thomas Monson has a testimony of Jesus and thus is a prophet as, "the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus." and he may be a revelator at times, I don't however believe he is a Seer, as I don't believe there is currently a Seer on the earth. I believe Joseph Smith was the last Seer until he had the Urim & Thummim taken from him and he gave away the Seer Stone. I believe the next Seer will be the One Mighty and Strong. I don't believe Thomas Monson is the one person with the "keys" of the priesthood.

So, you've been excommunicated due to worthiness issues, and instead of repenting, you decided to start your own church?

How do you claim priesthood authority, when those holding priesthood keys excommunicated you, stripping you of your authority? I mean, if you accept that they hold the priesthood, then the counsels of the priesthood have the right and authority to excommunicate and remove priesthood.

Second, it is my experience in 30 years of counseling saints that those who have been excommunicated do not have the spirit in the same sense as those who have repented and returned. How do we know you aren't following a deceiving spirit, as Joseph Smith established the priesthood quorums and their responsibilities to baptize, ordain, and excommunicate? IMV, you hold no priesthood. You are not an elder, because from your own views of priesthood, you were properly excommunicated, and hence have lost that authority.

The pattern is with prophets and apostles, who hold keys. Joseph Smith was ordained an apostle, which gave him the authority as prophet, seer and revelator. A seer does use a Urim and Thummim to assist when translating, but isn't required otherwise. And how do you know that the First Presidency and Twelve don't have Urim and Thummim now? D&C 130 states that U&T can be a small white stone given to the elect. How do you know there aren't 15 of them right now on earth, or 1 that is accessible by all of them?

When you claim that Joseph's revelations post U&T are of no more significance than anyone else's, you are denying statements made by the Lord! In D&C 1 it tells us to follow the prophets and apostles that lead the Church, or be cast off. Seems like that is what has happened to you.

I can tell you, the day will come when the Lord will restore Zion. And those leading it will be at the head of the LDS Church, as prophets and apostles. No other restorationist church has the direction, organization, or inspiration to make it happen.

[KristofferUmfrey]

So, you've been excommunicated due to worthiness issues, and instead of repenting, you decided to start your own church?

How do you claim priesthood authority, when those holding priesthood keys excommunicated you, stripping you of your authority? I mean, if you accept that they hold the priesthood, then the counsels of the priesthood have the right and authority to excommunicate and remove priesthood.

Second, it is my experience in 30 years of counseling saints that those who have been excommunicated do not have the spirit in the same sense as those who have repented and returned. How do we know you aren't following a deceiving spirit, as Joseph Smith established the priesthood quorums and their responsibilities to baptize, ordain, and excommunicate? IMV, you hold no priesthood. You are not an elder, because from your own views of priesthood, you were properly excommunicated, and hence have lost that authority.

The pattern is with prophets and apostles, who hold keys. Joseph Smith was ordained an apostle, which gave him the authority as prophet, seer and revelator. A seer does use a Urim and Thummim to assist when translating, but isn't required otherwise. And how do you know that the First Presidency and Twelve don't have Urim and Thummim now? D&C 130 states that U&T can be a small white stone given to the elect. How do you know there aren't 15 of them right now on earth, or 1 that is accessible by all of them?

When you claim that Joseph's revelations post U&T are of no more significance than anyone else's, you are denying statements made by the Lord! In D&C 1 it tells us to follow the prophets and apostles that lead the Church, or be cast off. Seems like that is what has happened to you.

I can tell you, the day will come when the Lord will restore Zion. And those leading it will be at the head of the LDS Church, as prophets and apostles. No other restorationist church has the direction, organization, or inspiration to make it happen.

So, you've been excommunicated due to worthiness issues, and instead of repenting, you decided to start your own church?

Firstly, I had no obligation to answer such a personal question, but was honest and answered anyway.

Second, I thought the fact that I confessed to my Bishop concerning my sin would show that I did have indeed repented. But by all means you have your agency to judge.

How do you claim priesthood authority, when those holding priesthood keys excommunicated you, stripping you of your authority? I mean, if you accept that they hold the priesthood, then the counsels of the priesthood have the right and authority to excommunicate and remove priesthood.

I believe God gives the priesthood man is simply the vehicle, while my priesthood was dormant during repentance, Heavenly Father can authorize me to exercise it when He so chooses. But you are correct, within the LDS church I have no authority to use my priesthood because I have not been authorized by it's leaders, just as I can't presume to make executive decisions for Microsoft as I am not the CEO.

Second, it is my experience in 30 years of counseling saints that those who have been excommunicated do not have the spirit in the same sense as those who have repented and returned. How do we know you aren't following a deceiving spirit, as Joseph Smith established the priesthood quorums and their responsibilities to baptize, ordain, and excommunicate? IMV, you hold no priesthood. You are not an elder, because from your own views of priesthood, you were properly excommunicated, and hence have lost that authority.

And you are welcome to your point of view. I can tell you I have felt the Spirit stronger in the last few years as I repent and try like the dickens to draw closer to the Lord and His will for my life.

When you claim that Joseph's revelations post U&T are of no more significance than anyone else's, you are denying statements made by the Lord! In D&C 1 it tells us to follow the prophets and apostles that lead the Church, or be cast off. Seems like that is what has happened to you.

Again, you are welcome to your opinion. But the Lord knows my heart and where I put my trust, and I am confident He will lead me in paths of righteousness as I repent and try to understand and do his will.

I can tell you, the day will come when the Lord will restore Zion. And those leading it will be at the head of the LDS Church, as prophets and apostles. No other restorationist church has the direction, organization, or inspiration to make it happen.

Again, you are welcome to your opinion. I'm glad we agree that New Jerusalem will be built and Zion will be restored in all her glory. The Lord doesn't need an earthly organization to make anything happen, He could raise up an army tomorrow to build New Jerusalem...

9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. (Matt 3)

[Connie]

There have been far too many people on this site that will only say "You're welcome to your opinion." I think that really goes without saying. Everyone, i'm sure, knows that they are entitled to their own opinion.

That's all i wanted to say, except that repentance involves more than a mere confession.

[KristofferUmfrey]

There have been far too many people on this site that will only say "You're welcome to your opinion." I think that really goes without saying. Everyone, i'm sure, knows that they are entitled to their own opinion.

That's all i wanted to say, except that repentance involves more than a mere confession.

I realize that many of you believe you can only repent if you return to the LDS church, and you are entitled to think that.

But how about instead of attacking my character, of which you know nothing about except what I have openly admitted when I had no obligation to do so, we stick to the doctrinal differences, and perhaps we can all learn something during the course of conversation?

[Old Tex]

......stick to the doctrinal differences, and perhaps we can all learn something during the course of conversation?

Let's try a doctrinal difference.....In one of your posts I think I read where you implied that you teach (or believe) that the Holy Ghost and Heavenly Mother are the same individual.

A few years ago a sister in the Church who was heavily influenced by the Women's Lib Movement, which was popular at the time, began to teach this false doctrine.

After receiving council for several months to cease the teaching, she continued on and was eventially excommunicated. I wonder if you are familiar with the incident, and I also wonder if this might have be a factor in your excommunication.

Old Tex

Edited December 13, 2008 by Old Tex

[KristofferUmfrey]

Let's try a doctrinal difference.....In one of your posts I think I read where you implied that you teach (or believe) that the Holy Ghost and Heavenly Mother are the same individual.

A few years ago a sister in the Church who was heavily influenced by the Women's Lib Movement, which was popular at the time, began to teach this false doctrine.

After receiving council for several months to cease the teaching, she continued on and was eventially excommunicated. I wonder if you are familiar with the incident, and I also wonder if this might have be a factor in your excommunication.

Old Tex

I really do need to get around to answering your question about the Holy Spirit :)

I am vaguely familiar with the story. I believe she was ex'd for teaching and encouraging worshiping Heavenly Mother and praying to her. I don't do that, it is the Father we worship in the name of the Son.

You make it seem as though I'm the one who brought it up and am emphasizing it, which couldn't be further from the truth. You had to go and find it and bring it up for it to be talked about.

My excommunication had nothing to do with doctrinal disagreements or apostacy, I was in full agreement with the LDS church at the time and had every intention of being rebaptized, and I was prompted in another direction. If the Lord sees fit to send me back I will go back. I have no animosity or anger towards the LDS church.

[KristofferUmfrey]

Let's try a doctrinal difference.....In one of your posts I think I read where you implied that you teach (or believe) that the Holy Ghost and Heavenly Mother are the same individual.

A few years ago a sister in the Church who was heavily influenced by the Women's Lib Movement, which was popular at the time, began to teach this false doctrine.

After receiving council for several months to cease the teaching, she continued on and was eventially excommunicated. I wonder if you are familiar with the incident, and I also wonder if this might have be a factor in your excommunication.

Old Tex

The verses in question...(from 1990 Temple Lot Edition)

"26 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, was desirous also that I might see, and hear, and know of these things, by the power of the Holy Ghost, which is the gift of God unto all those who diligently seek him, as well in times of old as in the time that he should manifest himself unto the children of men;

27 For he is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

28 And the way is prepared for all men from the foundation of the world, if it so be that they repent and come unto him;

29 For he that diligently seeketh shall find;

30 And the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto him by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in this time as in times of old;

31 And as well in times of old as in times to come;

32 Wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round.

33 Therefore, remember, O man, for all thy doings thou shalt be brought into judgment.

34 Wherefore, if ye have sought to do wickedly in the days of your probation, then ye are found unclean before the judgment seat of God;

35 And no unclean thing can dwell with God; wherefore, ye must be cast off forever.

36 And the Holy Ghost giveth authority that I should speak these things and deny them not.

37 For it came to pass that after I had desired to know the things that my father had seen, and believing that the Lord was able to make them known unto me,

38 Wherefore, as I sat pondering in mine heart I was caught away in the Spirit of the Lord, yea, into an exceeding high mountain, which I never had before seen, and upon which I never had before set my foot.

39 And the Spirit saith unto me, Behold, what desirest thou?

40 And I saith, I desire to behold the things which my father saw.

41 And the Spirit saith unto me, Believest thou that thy father saw the tree of which he hath spoken?

42 And I said, Yea, thou knowest that I believe all the words of my father.

43 And when I had spoken these words, the Spirit cried with a loud voice, saying, Hosanna to the Lord, the most high God; for he is God over all the earth, yea, even above all.

44 And blessed art thou, Nephi, because thou believest in the Son of the most high God; wherefore, thou shalt behold the things which thou hast desired.

45 And behold, this thing shall be given unto thee for a sign, that after thou hast beheld the tree which bore the fruit which thy father tasted, thou shalt also behold a man descending out of heaven; and him shall ye witness; and after that ye shall have witnessed him, ye shall bear record that it is the Son of God.

46 And it came to pass that the Spirit saith unto me, Look! and I looked and beheld a tree; and it was like unto the tree which my father had seen; and the beauty thereof was far beyond, yea, exceeding of all beauty; and the whiteness thereof did exceed the whiteness of the driven snow.

47 And it came to pass that after that I had seen the tree, I said unto the Spirit, I behold thou hast shewn unto me the tree which is most precious above all.

48 And he saith unto me, What desirest thou?

49 And I said unto him, To know the interpretation thereof:

50 For I spake unto him as a man speaketh; for I beheld that he was in the form of a man; yet, nevertheless, I knew that it was the Spirit of the Lord: and he spake unto me as a man speaketh with another."

[pam]

Yes let's please stick to doctrinal differences and refrain from the personal attacks here.

[Connie]

These are the last days, the gathering period. I find it very hard to believe that God would wish to further divide his kingdom on earth. Did Christ not say, "if ye are not one, ye are not mine."? Weren't many of the talks during this past conference about unity and becoming one in Christ? (if you don't care about conference, disregard that last sentence).

And yes, thank you, i do know that i can have my own opinion. If that's the only response you can come up with, i might as well answer it now. I agree, we should stick to doctrinal differences instead of stating the obvious.