How do I live with myself?

[Twospiritdancer]

I understand what you are saying, I know the laws, commandments and principles of the gospel. I have been told over and over again to rely on the Lord, to keep His commandments, use the atonement,...... I know all of this. And yet it is easier said than done. This is something no one can understand unless you have been there. My situation goes against everything I believe in. I do not wish to convince anyone that it's right or prove it to be ok. But I do have greater compassion and understanding for those I once critisized and ridiculed. I have spoken to some who expressed the ordeals they went through of self hate and suicidal thoughts. This is a fight too big for one person, yet no one can fight it with you..... you do stand alone.

And another thing,.... it's not always about sex.

[applepansy]

I have spoken to some who expressed the ordeals they went through of self hate and suicidal thoughts. This is a fight too big for one person, yet no one can fight it with you..... you do stand alone.

We are only as alone as we choose to be. Christ is always there for us. We have to open the door to him though. We have our agency. We have to invite Him into our lives. So, if you feel alone, invite Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Savior, into your life.

We all have our trials. We always feel that our trials are harder than our neighbors. I'ved learned that until you walk in someone's shoes you can't understand how hard things are for them. Christ knows. . . He suffered everything so that he could be there for us in our trials.

Give Hiim a chance.

applepansy

[Saraphina]

But you don't stand alone. I understand how you feel, I gave an example that I don't just throw around at dinner parties to show you other people are suffering your plight-what's more, the Lord has atoned for your very cross so that you will not have to be alone.

I have to disagree when you say it's not always about sex. Most of the time, it is. Unless you have actually fallen in love with someone while married to your spouse, you are probably having feelings based off of PHYSICAL desires that have nothing to do with love. Did you love your spouse when you married him/her? Does being gay and admitting that to yourself, suddenly change your love for you spouse because they're not the right gender? If it's not about sex, the answer would be no. I know it's hard....and I know it goes against everything you believe. I felt that way too. However- would giving up your family to go find love based off of this "attraction" make you happier?

Edited December 29, 2008 by Saraphina

[Saraphina]

Also, NO ONE can understand how it feels unless they've been there with ANY trial. Suffering is subjective. You may feel you have it worse than anyone, when many other people feel the exact same way with something completely different.

[interalia]

I understand what you are saying, I know the laws, commandments and principles of the gospel. I have been told over and over again to rely on the Lord, to keep His commandments, use the atonement,...... I know all of this. And yet it is easier said than done. This is something no one can understand unless you have been there. My situation goes against everything I believe in. I do not wish to convince anyone that it's right or prove it to be ok. But I do have greater compassion and understanding for those I once critisized and ridiculed. I have spoken to some who expressed the ordeals they went through of self hate and suicidal thoughts. This is a fight too big for one person, yet no one can fight it with you..... you do stand alone.

And another thing,.... it's not always about sex.

You are right, it isn't always about sex (in fact it rarely is) - it is about identity. Having come from your shoes let me ask you the question I had to ask myself (I will modify it somewhat to represent you).

1) "Am I a gay person?"

2) "Am I a child of God?"

Pursuing only the first identity will justify and validate a lifestyle of wrong choices with eternal consequences - after all you are gay right? You need to do what gay people do.

It is like a person who eats too much changing their identity from being a person with an 'eating problem,' a temporary condition, to an 'overweight person,' an identity. How does it change you once you've made it part of your identity? Easy. The individual who identifies as being an 'overweight person' as their central identity cannot change and feels they have no control over their situation, because losing weight would now somehow invalidate the years of obesity and self-hatred - so they NEED to be overweight in order to justify their actions which of course causes them to continue to pursue their poor habits.

Now let's look at a new way to view our identity:

2) "Am I a child of God?"

If you adopt the second identity, then you know as a child of God you are infinitely capable with infinite and eternal potential. You have loving heavenly parents who want to see you through your trials and have promised to provide every means necessary to wrestle and subdue your temptations in this life. When someone challenges you, you know you are a child of God, and thus have specific responsibilities to maintain and goals to achieve.

So are you gay (identity that will dictate future actions) or are you a child of God who has an SSA problem (condition that is not permanent)?

Personally, I am a child of God who struggles with SSA (same sex attraction) and GID (gender identity disorder), and know I have the capacity to overcome any vice no matter how much the world tells me it is who I am and not to fight it, no matter how much medical science tells me it was the way I was born, no matter how favorably the world turns toward my situation, and no matter how much I personally struggle with it. I can promise you: this will not rise with me in the eternities, and it does get easier to handle with practice.

"The way back [to God] is paved before you take the first step." - This is what the Holy Spirit told me when I asked God if I should abandon my cross-gendered lifestyle and come to the Lord.

In the end this all takes faith. If the church is not true, then your struggles with SSA could be for naught, and my choice to remain my birth gender will be the death of me, but if the church IS true, and your testimony is real and you REALLY are a child of God, then no mountain is too high, no precipice too overwhelming if you will act in faith, having courage that your loving Heavenly Father will save you as you follow His plan.

I love you as I love all my dear brothers and sisters who have struggled as I have. You have SO MANY voices telling you to follow your desires, your "heart," your "feelings," and they do so with the best intentions I believe, but they are not going to lead you to eternal happiness - something you have a true shot at obtaining.

Feel free to PM me if you'd like to discuss it further or obtain more details.

Edited December 29, 2008 by interalia
Grammar

[rameumptom]

We all are born with genetic markers of weakness. I was born under the alcoholic/addict cloud. I have friends and acquaintances who are sexual addicts.

Yet to think that these are the only things that define us, means we are not looking at who we really are. We are children of God, and capable of great divine things. The issue is to stop focusing on yourself and your impulses, and to learn to focus on others in service. There is a huge reason why Christ told us to deny ourselves, to take up our crosses, and to lose our lives in his service. It is in doing these things that we find our true lives and our true selves.

We are the ones who choose whether we retain the birthright we were born with, or whether we sell it for a mess of pottage, because we have a hunger pain right now.

Life is not supposed to be about bliss and feeding off our base animal desires. It is about rising above the flesh, rising above the physical desires and impulses, throwing off the natural man. It is about taking upon us the Holy Spirit, and the man of God, and godliness. It is a time for us to choose, as did Jesus, to walk away from the natural impulses and to accept some pain and suffering now, in order to be godlike.

We can view ourselves as poor little victims. Or we can view ourselves as God's elect children. We cannot do both. We either learn to embrace the Savior's atonement and rise above all things through our valiant and faithful efforts, or we slouch toward Gomorrah. We learn charity, the pure love of Christ for all people (which causes our addictions to be lost in that love), or we accept something less. But only charity abides forever.

Is it hard? Of course it is. So are many of the issues I deal with, and have dealt with for decades. If it wasn't for my goal of living with God in eternal glory, I could easily just walk away from everything in my life and find a nice, quiet, Mexican cantina to live in for the rest of my life, drowning my struggles and sorrows in liquor. I know this, because I have several family members who have done this.

Rising above all things, as did Christ, means just that. The only difference is, he did it alone; and we can do it with his help.

[Twospiritdancer]

Thank you so much..... it's amazing how much sense is made when you ask someone who is looking in, or even better.... been there. Doesn't mean it makes things easy, but it's nice to get understanding and sense. And I really need it today, as I recieved info that my husband has gone and spread the word, the news has spread like wild fire.... even friends overseas have heard. This makes showing my face that much harder. I want to make sure that no matter what choice I end up making, that my children remain in the church, that I will take them and attend with them, continue to raise them with the gospel teachings.... I'll continue to do this, but I'm not sure how it's going to be with all the talk. Oh boy, this has gone from bad to worse....

I will attempt to get down on my knees and do as you suggest, and hope I'll be heard.

[Misshalfway]

I am afraid I can't offer much wisdom on this particular subject.....only that I know loving people on this board with great insight. There is hope. There must be! I suppose it is learning to find it and apply it to the appropriate emotional centers of who you are. Sometimes our experience here on earth is somewhat of a betrayal with all of its trials and temporal issues, but there is great purpose in the struggle and hope centered in Christ. May you be led to find the wisdom and clarity and power you need to fight your battles and win.

Take Care.

[godisabullet]

So I'm sure that as believers in magic stories and what ever make believe you people believe in, you are totally unaware of the shape the world is really in. It was belief exactly like yours that God so favored the farmers of the mid-western United States that the "rain would follow the plow." Even though they didn't know what the weather conditions where for any extended period of time in what turned into the dust bowl.

You sit in all your self-anointed piety in a land that never in any sense of the word "rightfully" belonged to the white man. Even still to this day the people that "own" the United States soak the hands of those live here with the blood of innocent people. You think you understand righteousness? Your mythology tells you what you want to believe with enough strictness tossed in to make it believable.

Take a good hard look at history and how Israel was "given back to the Jews." Then look at how what is supposed to be the holy land is a foothold for western power. You think this world is worth living in? I'm sure you will find great solace in the fact that you are alive and a disbeliever like myself makes it all come to a bloody end for myself.

[KristofferUmfrey]

So I'm sure that as believers in magic stories and what ever make believe you people believe in, you are totally unaware of the shape the world is really in. It was belief exactly like yours that God so favored the farmers of the mid-western United States that the "rain would follow the plow." Even though they didn't know what the weather conditions where for any extended period of time in what turned into the dust bowl.

You sit in all your self-anointed piety in a land that never in any sense of the word "rightfully" belonged to the white man. Even still to this day the people that "own" the United States soak the hands of those live here with the blood of innocent people. You think you understand righteousness? Your mythology tells you what you want to believe with enough strictness tossed in to make it believable.

Take a good hard look at history and how Israel was "given back to the Jews." Then look at how what is supposed to be the holy land is a foothold for western power. You think this world is worth living in? I'm sure you will find great solace in the fact that you are alive and a disbeliever like myself makes it all come to a bloody end for myself.

Hmmm... gosh I don't what to say to this post... "Gee fellar, don't go doing anything crazy."?

Perhaps you should examine the beliefs of the people here before going on a anti-Christian tirade.

A book of scripture I use called the Book of Mormon says the Natives of this land (the United States) will someday go through the Gentiles (unrepentant white man) and destroy them from off the land, because they (the Natives) are of a Tribe of Israel called Manasseh and this land is rightfully theirs with their repentant white brethren (Ephraim).

So if you want to be mad at replacement theology protestant Christianity, more power to you, I'm on your side. But don't lump me in with them before actually knowing what I believe.

Deal?

[rameumptom]

So I'm sure that as believers in magic stories and what ever make believe you people believe in, you are totally unaware of the shape the world is really in. It was belief exactly like yours that God so favored the farmers of the mid-western United States that the "rain would follow the plow." Even though they didn't know what the weather conditions where for any extended period of time in what turned into the dust bowl.

You sit in all your self-anointed piety in a land that never in any sense of the word "rightfully" belonged to the white man. Even still to this day the people that "own" the United States soak the hands of those live here with the blood of innocent people. You think you understand righteousness? Your mythology tells you what you want to believe with enough strictness tossed in to make it believable.

Take a good hard look at history and how Israel was "given back to the Jews." Then look at how what is supposed to be the holy land is a foothold for western power. You think this world is worth living in? I'm sure you will find great solace in the fact that you are alive and a disbeliever like myself makes it all come to a bloody end for myself.

Wow. Talk about issues. While I agree that America is not spotless and all bubble gum and Nancy Drew mysteries, I think we need to realize that the Native Americans were not the "noble savages" that Voltaire and others tried to envision. These are people involved in human sacrifice, cannabalism (still happens today in the Amazon), and continuous wars amongst themselves.

Land belongs to no one, and to everyone. The land didn't belong to the Native Americans, either. They came over from elsewhere, primarily Asia. The history of the world has been one of conquest. Sad as that may be, it is true. And what is the better life: living in small tribes eking out a living, with a life expectancy of 35 years, or living in any one of a variety of settings with a comfortable home, and education, and living to the age of 75 years? I expect there are pros and cons to both ways. Sometimes the conqueror can bring about better things. America conquered Japan and Germany in WWII, and 50 years later they now are both strong democracies with more freedom than they had before the war. Which way is better?

Palestine has always been a foothold for power, Western or otherwise. Look at how often Egypt, Mesopotamia and other nations attempted to obtain the area. Look at how Russia and now China have attempted to influence the area, usually supporting the terrorist groups, such as Hamas, that has been shooting rockets indiscriminately into Israeli territory for the last few months. While Israel is not blemish free, they are not the ones with a constitutional byline that says they plan on wiping the other off the face of the earth!

So, while you may have a point, I think it needs to be balanced out with all the facts. A one-sided view is not good on any account. Sadly, many people only hear or want to hear, only one side of the story. They do not consider carefully all sides before establishing alliances or conclusions. This seems to be your problem, as well.

[Elgama]

S

You sit in all your self-anointed piety in a land that never in any sense of the word "rightfully" belonged to the white man. Even still to this day the people that "own" the United States soak the hands of those live here with the blood of innocent people. You think you understand righteousness? Your mythology tells you what you want to believe with enough strictness tossed in to make it believable.

Maybe it would be good to remember not everyone is in the US or is it your own arrogance that teaches your country is whole world? if thats the case me thinks you need to travel a wee bit. And the land is always rightfully owned by the conquerers, because its not rightfully owned by any human we didn't make it, My ancestry is Celtic, Scots, Viking and Anglo Saxon but in their time even they were conqurers.

-Charley

Edited December 31, 2008 by Elgama

[Twospirit]

So I'm sure that as believers in magic stories and what ever make believe you people believe in, you are totally unaware of the shape the world is really in. It was belief exactly like yours that God so favored the farmers of the mid-western United States that the "rain would follow the plow." Even though they didn't know what the weather conditions where for any extended period of time in what turned into the dust bowl.

You sit in all your self-anointed piety in a land that never in any sense of the word "rightfully" belonged to the white man. Even still to this day the people that "own" the United States soak the hands of those live here with the blood of innocent people. You think you understand righteousness? Your mythology tells you what you want to believe with enough strictness tossed in to make it believable.

Take a good hard look at history and how Israel was "given back to the Jews." Then look at how what is supposed to be the holy land is a foothold for western power. You think this world is worth living in? I'm sure you will find great solace in the fact that you are alive and a disbeliever like myself makes it all come to a bloody end for myself.

My Goodness, godisabullet, I do think that was quite a bit off the subject , yet very judgmental nonentheless. and that you are dealing with a lot of issues, perhaps better to discuss it in another thread? I too suggest that maybe reading more, and gleaning objective information about South Africa or USA for that matter, and see facts and reality as they are, not as you would like them to be, before forming such subjectective opinons of the world (Opinions that suit your agenda and issues sprouting from your own hurt and fear).

Twospiritdancer, My heart is with you, all I can say is, I can see you have been through a rough time, and that it has taken a lot of courage to even write this here. You are a brave soul. Although it is disappointing and hurtful what happened, keep your head held high through this, people are quick to judge that which they do not understand and quick to judge what they fear. Keep being HONEST, truth is always the way to go. I for one am one who believes that a marriage disentegrates from two sides, and as such I usually ask my clients these standard questions, regardless of the so-called "main reason the marriage difficulties" both ways... but for now I'll ask you: * Has your husband been a good spouse and father ? Has he spent enough time with you and your children? Has he put his needs second to that of his family? Has he acted wisely in dealing with you and your children before you discovered and made peace with your orientation? Has he remained faithful to you all theses years? How long have you been married? Has he been a good consistant provider? and lastly, has he respected you and been considerate as his partner throughout your marriage?.... Have you been a good wife to your husband, before you discovery? Who do you think put more effort in keeping the marriage going all these years? Have you provided a good environment for your children? Who spends the most time with your children, leading, guiding , teaching, caring, nurturing, seeing to basic needs, helping with homework etc?.. I am asking these questions, as it seems that more is play here, than just the discovery of your orientation. A thought, if your husband is the one throwing more stones by divulging confidential information, he is doing so to maybe hide his mistakes too? I feel that your husband's behaviour , even though he may be experiencing a lot of hurt and anger, has not been well thought through or Christlike or in the best interest of your children and does say a bit of his way of dealing with situations in general perhaps?

I am not saying, gain ammunition for whatever future reason, merely, answer these questions for yourself, and discover for yourself, if there aren't perhaps more issues that lead to the disintegration of your marriage than merely your discovery the past year or "the main reason " for the current state you are in? Once you have answered these questions, take it from there?

You are not alone in this, God will always be with you, and you will always remain His child. God be with you on your future journey dear, I can see there are caring and loving people here who are here for you too. Only you and God truly know all the details of what has happened.. Make time to be quiet in His presence and seek His Will and Guidance, He will always listen with a Loving Heart. You will know the difference between His answer and the opinion of other's "well meaning" input.

You will be in my Prayers and Thoughts this year.

May God be with you and your children this year, and may he bless you during this time.

Edited December 31, 2008 by Twospirit

[godisabullet]

KristofferUmfrey,

Thank you for reply. I first would like to apologize for attacking the Mormon belief system. That is something that I thought would never do and I guess that I would probably only do anonymously. You might accept it as my reacting to the disenfranchisement from larger society I feel as an atheist .

I would like to explain that a bit further, but first I would like ensure that I won't be doing anything crazy and I will be seeking help in addressing how such notions come to dominate my thinking. I am thankful there was this forum to post to and that someone replied to my "tirade" (aptly put) in the context of real person.

On most days, I am in every way behind the idea that people need to be accepted as individuals. Even if that individuality leads them to being part of a larger group. Then to the other extreme I have days like yesterday when bit of bad news hits and I get destructive. Not physically but most of the time repressing feeling like being physically destructive. In retrospect, venting on your forum was me behaving in a destructive way so I didn't have to repress that feeling. I am pretty sure I was reacting in an actually non-destructive way to feeling like being destructive. I guess I should thank you for the therapy. Thank you.

I would like to offer my perspective of what it is to be an atheist with integrity. I often think of going to church as a panacea for loneliness and a way to be around nice people. But then I think about the standard question I am sure I will encounter; do I accept Jesus as my saviour. The honest answer would be; no. What then? I simply don't know that to be reality. And so it goes. I don't countermand what other people accept as reality, usually, yesterday's post to this forum is an almost singular exception, so why should I be judged indifferent to what is right for only accepting what I know to be reality as reality?

Anyhow, thanks again and the best of everything to you,

James

[godisabullet]

Dear other posters to this thread,

I mistook MissHalfway's join date to be the thread post date and I didn't realize that the thread was still active.

I have been soaking in a lot of history lately and drawing a lot of parallels between what is happening in the middle east. Along with the suicidal distraught I was feeling yesterday, yeah, it was a cry for help, I did some barking where I thought I would be heard. Thank you to all repliers for not pandering to that issue and taking me to task on my knowledge of history.

James

[Hemidakota]

Homicide bombers compared to a suicide person? I don't see the same logic here. Maybe I am not reading this right.

[pburt]

There are support groups you can search out that can give strength to people like you and JHM-in-Bountiful. Please hold on and find a group that helps you. There is so much to live for, and your life is a valuable as anyone's. I cannot imagine the difficulty of your situation, but applaud your efforts to do what is right. My prayer is that you ind the spiritual resources you need to continue your journey.