Israel invades Gaza

[mrbeanroxs]

ksl.com - Israeli troops invade Gaza; lengthy fight expected

I think Israel is justified in doing this, since they have put up with being hit by rockets for a long time now. I also think it should be careful in how it handles it and that it will not target civilians.

[BenRaines]

Israel has gone to extreme measures to not target civilians. They have made calls to warn people to leave and also dropped flyers to tell people to leave the area before bombing and now prior to troop movement.

Someone keeps shooting missles and mortars at me I would not be near as patient as Israel has been.

Ben Raines

[Prodigal_Son]

I go to Israel every year...

I agree that Israel is justified. But I hope people will understand that Palestinian does NOT equal "terrorist". Hamas is the problem. The Palestinians are by far and wide good, humble, kind people. It's a horrible, untenable situation. Innocent folks are being used as shields by Hamas, and the people are so squelched by Israel's mistreatment of them - that they have to stand there and bear it.

Neither side is innocent. Israel is being careful... but they are hardly innocent of wrongdoing against the Palestinian people. They take out their frustration against Hamas on all of them... It's just an impossible situation...

Edited January 4, 2009 by Prodigal_Son

[Islander]

What most people forgot is that Hamas and Hezbolah are "political parties" engendered, financed and initially supported by the Soviets; a "dictatorship of the people." And they are almost cookie cutter in strategy and architecture. Radical Islam happens to be the cover suit ideology and Israel the target rather than the US. They have held the people of Palestine and Lebanon hostage for 30 years while their hypocritical demagogues enjoy summer villas in Sardinia and Mykonos, "safe houses" (read palatial residences) in every western city and private jets everywhere they go. They will decapitate and cut the fingertips of any, including their own people, that dare to oppose them, suggest an alternative or openly disagree with the "leadership."

This is why since 1948 no negotiation has prospered, no Arab leader has accepted to any term offered and lived and no matter what atrocity Hamas does in the Gaza strip no voice in the Islamic world will oppose. They evicted the legally instituted government from Gaza at gun point and the Arab world stood in silence. What can we expect? More of the same, no matter what Israel offers or compromises.

[a-train]

Why do we feel compelled to make any determination (especially a sweeping one) whether Israel is justified? Are we to issue some policy on that basis? If Israel is NOT justified, should that change our policy towards it? When we take such positions, we actually take war positions. Why can't we take a peace position? Why not support no act of war? Renounce war and proclaim peace.

-a-train

[gabelpa]

I reckon we'll see trouble coming out of Israel for the next 3-5 years in relation to this invasion, justified or not. What's done is done.

[BenRaines]

While peace is ideal a-train I think it is like a good marriage. It takes two willing partners. If one is constantly picking at the other sooner or later the most benevolent partner is going to say "I have had enough". I would prefer that we get along and live in harmony but you won't. In marriage they get a divorce and the war really begins, for countries there is war.

Peace is nice but both have to want it.

Ben Raines

[Prodigal_Son]

Why do we feel compelled to make any determination (especially a sweeping one) whether Israel is justified? Are we to issue some policy on that basis? If Israel is NOT justified, should that change our policy towards it? When we take such positions, we actually take war positions. Why can't we take a peace position? Why not support no act of war? Renounce war and proclaim peace.

-a-train

A-Train, I thought you knew your scriptures! Where would that put Nephi, Moroni, etc. ??? How about President Hinckley's comments in General Conference October 2001?? Peace only truly works in a Celestial society. Peace, to a degree, was holding until Hamas stirred the pot... AGAIN. Peace will likely never occur, so long as oppression exists...

From a doctrinal perspective, we know that God's people, the Jews, are there because God returned them there. We also know that they'll have to fight tooth and nail right up until The Messiah saves the day for them.

This whole situation parallels the way the Book of Mormon promised that European settlers would come to the Americas and scourge the Lamanite descendants. We have the beautiful, comfortable lifestyles we do because of the same type of situation: God willed it and blessed those settlers with the capacity to excercise dominion over the land and natives. Just like the Children of Israel did to Jericho. Just like the Jews have done today in Palestine.

Political persuasions aside, this is THE Game Plan, crappy is it may be. They're not "Mormons", but they ARE some of God's chosen people.

[NeuroTypical]

Question for A-train: You got any example to point to? Any group or people or civilization who became great in God's eyes by totally avoiding war?

(There may be one out there, I don't know. The parents of the Army of Helaman doesn't really count in my eyes, as their kids ended up going to war.)

LM

[FunkyTown]

Question for A-train: You got any example to point to? Any group or people or civilization who became great in God's eyes by totally avoiding war?

(There may be one out there, I don't know. The parents of the Army of Helaman doesn't really count in my eyes, as their kids ended up going to war.)

LM

Nations? No. No nation has ever totally avoided war and been great in God's eyes. In fact, David was considered closest to God's heart and it was said that "Saul killed his thousands and David his tens of thousands".

Wait... But then again, Lot wasn't a warrior and neither was John the Baptist. In fact, Lot searched Sodom for a worthy man and couldn't find one.

Maybe God isn't a respecter of Nations, who always seem to call upon Him during war to bless their weapons. Maybe God is a respecter of persons and not Nations and he, instead, uses nations to teach individuals and reach many people at once.

[NeuroTypical]

I don't know what any of that means, Funky. Are you for or against A-train's suggestions of pacifist isolationism?

LM

Edited January 4, 2009 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[a-train]

While peace is ideal a-train I think it is like a good marriage. It takes two willing partners. If one is constantly picking at the other sooner or later the most benevolent partner is going to say "I have had enough". I would prefer that we get along and live in harmony but you won't. In marriage they get a divorce and the war really begins, for countries there is war.

Peace is nice but both have to want it.

Ben Raines

We are not one of the two parties.

-a-train

[a-train]

A-Train, I thought you knew your scriptures! Where would that put Nephi, Moroni, etc. ??? How about President Hinckley's comments in General Conference October 2001?? Peace only truly works in a Celestial society. Peace, to a degree, was holding until Hamas stirred the pot... AGAIN. Peace will likely never occur, so long as oppression exists...

From a doctrinal perspective, we know that God's people, the Jews, are there because God returned them there. We also know that they'll have to fight tooth and nail right up until The Messiah saves the day for them.

This whole situation parallels the way the Book of Mormon promised that European settlers would come to the Americas and scourge the Lamanite descendants. We have the beautiful, comfortable lifestyles we do because of the same type of situation: God willed it and blessed those settlers with the capacity to excercise dominion over the land and natives. Just like the Children of Israel did to Jericho. Just like the Jews have done today in Palestine.

Political persuasions aside, this is THE Game Plan, crappy is it may be. They're not "Mormons", but they ARE some of God's chosen people.

Moroni fought in a civil war and defended an invasion. Palestine has no border dispute with the United States and has not invaded us. The war we are talking about is a foreign border dispute. Our involvement in it only escalates hostilities and spreads throughout the world a problem between two countries. A blind devotion to the state of Israel based on misguided interpretation of scripture will not help us. Inasmuch as Israel repels invasion and attack, they are indeed justified, but we have no reason nor right to make such judgments nor to come to the rescue of the most powerful country in that region. In fact, U.S. policy on the matter has actually bridled Israeli war efforts and emboldened their enemies.

-a-train

Edited January 4, 2009 by a-train

[a-train]

Question for A-train: You got any example to point to? Any group or people or civilization who became great in God's eyes by totally avoiding war?

(There may be one out there, I don't know. The parents of the Army of Helaman doesn't really count in my eyes, as their kids ended up going to war.)

LM

"There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked." (Isaiah 57:21)

So if I understand you right, a nation becomes great in God's eyes through warfare. Perhaps Hitler's Germany was among those considered most great by God. The assassin of Franz Ferdinand must have one of the highest thrones in heaven for his hand in precipitating World War I. I guess the blood thirsty Lamanites were great in God's eyes and that is why they survived and the Nephites were extinct. It wasn't the unrighteousness among the Jews and their crucifixion of the Messiah that caused their downfall, it was God's love and praise for the mighty war efforts of the wonderful Roman empire that exalted Ceasar and his legacy. In God's eyes, fascist war-mongering dictators are considered greatest. The Prince of Peace, who failed to support the Zealots and their blundered revolt which precipitated the Abomination of Desolation of which he prophesied, was not considered great in God's eyes. The Jews were simply not as blood thirsty as Titus and that is why God considered him and the Roman nation great and granted them their victory in 70.

With this in mind, we had better get busy. A concerted effort among us who know the scriptures and God's view of the world should press the Congress and our new president to begin nuclear assaults throughout the world to establish the Great American Empire over the whole earth. Through this we can achieve greatness in God's eyes.

Perhaps the scripture should read: "But he that is greatest among you shall be your war chief." (Matt 23:11)

The commandment to renounce war and proclaim peace is only for those wanting to be considered least in God's eyes. With this I can agree. For the Saviour taught: "he that is least among you all, the same shall be great." (Luke 9:48)

"And again I say unto you, sue for peace, not only to the people that have smitten you, but also to all people; And lift up an ensign of peace, and make a proclamation of peace unto the ends of the earth". (D&C 105:38-39)

I cannot find a nation more exalted by God than Enoch's Zion. I've never heard of another which was taken to heaven. I cannot seem to locate his great war efforts in the scriptures.

"And so great was the faith of Enoch that he led the people of God, and their enemies came to battle against them; and he spake the word of the Lord, and the earth trembled, and the mountains fled, even according to his command; and the rivers of water were turned out of their course; and the roar of the lions was heard out of the wilderness; and all nations feared greatly, so powerful was the word of Enoch, and so great was the power of the language which God had given him." (Moses 7:13)

It would seem in Enoch's case that warfare did not cause his people to live in peace, but it was the word of God that repelled his enemies.

-a-train

[a-train]

I don't know what any of that means, Funky. Are you for or against A-train's suggestions of pacifist isolationism?

LM

It is a befuddling notion: the idea that sanctions are considered non-isolationist and free trade is considered isolationist, that a policy of war is considered non-isolationist and a policy of friendship and peace is considered isolationist.

Let us not confuse my position with mercantilist notions, with protectionism. Instead of subsidizing war, let us open free trade and seek common commerce with these nations. Nothing will bring peace faster.

-a-train

[Islander]

A-Train:

In a perfect world I would agree with you. But if history serve us well, those that stood "neutral" and unengaged, those that thought they could negotiate with the enemy to preserve the peace at the end became servants and conquered by the enemy, nevertheless. When the enemy is evil, determined to exterminate and to dominate there is little choice but to show them it will not be so, and that you are willing to defend yourself at all cost no matter the outcome.

[a-train]

A-Train:

In a perfect world I would agree with you. But if history serve us well, those that stood "neutral" and unengaged, those that thought they could negotiate with the enemy to preserve the peace at the end became servants and conquered by the enemy, nevertheless. When the enemy is evil, determined to exterminate and to dominate there is little choice but to show them it will not be so, and that you are willing to defend yourself at all cost no matter the outcome.

So, following this logic to its end, a cessation of the subsidization of Israel and her enemies would lead to Israel and the United States falling under some Palestinian empire. Are we expected to believe that people with little more than small arms and RPGs are going to militarily win against a nuclear, airborne, Israel that has power to shut off Palestinian water, food, and energy sources instantly?

If history is our guide, then why did peaceful coexistance with communist Vietnam begin after we pulled out? Why did Vietnam not come conquer us? Why did Vietnam follow the Đổi Mới policy? Why did Russia not conquer us? Did Reagan's peaceful negotiations with Russia and the opening of trade lead to world communism or the fall of the Berlin Wall? My history books tell me the latter, not the former.

-a-train

Edited January 5, 2009 by a-train

[a-train]

What is the strategy and agenda of the shooters who propel rockets in to Israeli residential areas? They hope for the Israeli military response. They want media and the internet to globally parade the images of the Palistinian civilian casualties and dire circumstances.

Why do they want this? They want international support for their cause of a dissolution of the state of Israel and the ultimate realization of a unified Palestinian state. This goal requires great international assistance. Why does it require that? Because of the tremendous international support of the state of Israel.

What does all this ultimately lead too? A global war over borders in a relatively tiny place. Is that what we want? Will we let a relatively small band of murdering thugs plunge the whole planet into war as did the Black Hand in 1914? What is necessary is a deescalation of hostilities, not an emboldening of international tension and war rhetoric.

-a-train

[MormonMema]

I just pray for the end to hostilities in the Middle East. I'm a Navy mom, and my son is on deployment somewhere over there. On behalf of military moms and dads everywhere: I just pray every day for the safety of our sons and daughters, and for wisdom and common sense to prevail in governmental chambers. I know the song "In the Hollow of His Hand" refers specifically to keeping our missionaries safe, but I think it can be a prayer for our military forces, too.

Edited January 5, 2009 by MormonMema
to include fathers, too

[Rico]

We are not one of the two parties.

-a-train

But we are the big brother of the girl getting picked on by that bully husband. Luckily, little sister is a tough girl and all she needs are some weapons to even the field.

[Islander]

A-train:

After the Americans pulled from Vietnam the Khmer Rouge and the Ho Chi Minh government killed, murdered 3 million people. I think it was a very high price to pay. I think the example you bring does not equate. But think about the governments in Europe who thought they could negotiate with Hitler and spare their countries. They saved some but at the expense of many others, most notably the Jews. The world stood in fear and trepidation when evil spread its wing over Europe. Denmark, Norway, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, and France prety much surrendered. For 3 years the US hesitated until it became evident that evil would not stand still or relent its hunger for domination.

I would not endorse conflict or war. I would go to unimaginable extremes to avoid it. But, my brother, I suggest to you that at times when all has been tried, when all possible concessions have been made and an otherwise full-hearted effort to reach peace has been attempted and the enemy will not agree; then it must be made clear that you will defend yourself at all cost or die trying.

To make my point more explicit; based on the last 50 years, I do not believe that the radical elements of the Arab and Muslim world want peace or have done enough to ensure a long, stable and durable solution to the Palestinian issue. In fact, after dozens of meeting and negotiating parties, brokered proposals and the like, Anwar El Sadat was the ONLY leader to state that peace and a promise not to support or instigate war against Israel and acceptance of her right to exist as a Jewish State was a requirement for peace in the Middle east. A year later he was dead by the hands of the Muslim Brotherhood for departing from the radical Islamic party line.

Yes, I wish with all my heart that we could all live in peace. But there are some that hate and are bent on destroying all who oppose them. They would trample even their own scriptures and testimony of God that we are ALL children of the Most High God. Thus they reject peace and relish in their own hate and wage war as their view of the world is based on a distorted belief of history.

"The Jews and Christians say: We are the sons of Allah and His loved ones. Say: Why then does He punish you for your sins? Nay, you are but mortals of His creating. He forgives whom He will, and punishes whom He will. Allah's is the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them, and unto Him is the journeying." The noble Qur'an, Al-Nissa (5):18

Edited January 5, 2009 by Islander

[a-train]

But we are the big brother of the girl getting picked on by that bully husband. Luckily, little sister is a tough girl and all she needs are some weapons to even the field.

So, you are saying we need to give Israel, a nuclear power with the most powerful airforce on the eastern hemisphere, more weapons so it can fight men with nothing but grenades, small arms, and RPGs? We further need to place santions on this enemy? And all this to "even the playing field"? Somehow, this enemy is so amazingly effective with these small arms and grenades, the Israeli military is not on an even playing field with them?

-a-train

[Mormonatalie]

Heavenly Father’s plan was instituted eons ago, before this earth was created, and that He has revealed His plan through His prophets to His children on earth since the beginning of time.

[a-train]

A-train:

After the Americans pulled from Vietnam the Khmer Rouge and the Ho Chi Minh government killed, murdered 3 million people. I think it was a very high price to pay.

And you think that is not enough? We need to send Americans over there to add to the total? Our objective in killing thousands of Vietnamese was to prevent death? Our objective was based on the fallacy of "domino theory". Who ridded the world of the Khmer Rouge?

I think the example you bring does not equate. But think about the governments in Europe who thought they could negotiate with Hitler and spare their countries. They saved some but at the expense of many others, most notably the Jews. The world stood in fear and trepidation when evil spread its wing over Europe. Denmark, Norway, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, and France prety much surrendered. For 3 years the US hesitated until it became evident that evil would not stand still or relent its hunger for domination.

So you place the power of those shooting rockets into Israel in the same sphere with Hitler's war machine?

I would not endorse conflict or war. I would go to unimaginable extremes to avoid it. But, my brother, I suggest to you that at times when all has been tried, when all possible concessions have been made and an otherwise full-hearted effort to reach peace has been attempted and the enemy will not agree; then it must be made clear that you will defend yourself at all cost or die trying.

Are we under this threat? Are rockets landing here in the United States? Our involvement in a foreign war can definitely preciptate such events. Our involvement in the middle east brought us the events of the 11th of September, 2001. Is it worth World War III to stop a border dispute in a remote country?

To make my point more explicit; based on the last 50 years, I do not believe that the radical elements of the Arab and Muslim world want peace or have done enough to ensure a long, stable and durable solution to the Palestinian issue. In fact, after dozens of meeting and negotiating parties, brokered proposals and the like, Anwar El Sadat was the ONLY leader to state that peace and a promise not to support or instigate war against Israel and acceptance of her right to exist as a Jewish State was a requirement for peace in the Middle east. A year later he was dead by the hands of the Muslim Brotherhood for departing from the radical Islamic party line.

Yes, I wish with all my heart that we could all live in peace. But there are some that hate and are bent on destroying all who oppose them. They would trample even their own scriptures and testimony of God that we are ALL children of the Most High God. Thus they reject peace and relish in their own hate and wage war as their view of the world is based on a distorted belief of history.

So you think we should subsidize them and Israel so they can all have a gigantic war? Perhaps we need to send our troops over there so more Americans can die too. You think that an escalation of this war around the world will in someway put an end to the years of conflict there?

These countries cannot realize that their problems are their own doing until the scapegoat of foreign intervention leaves them. That is exactly what happened in Vietnam. It was not until they were left alone to pursue their vision of communistic paradise that they were able to realize the futility of it all.

-a-train

[NeuroTypical]

Question for A-train: You got any example to point to? Any group or people or civilization who became great in God's eyes by totally avoiding war?

So if I understand you right, a nation becomes great in God's eyes through warfare.

Wow. I'm well-versed in irrational leaps, having made a few myself, but I've got to say that one was a doozie. Since we're having such a difficult time understanding each other, I think I'll exit stage right.

I anticipate engaging you in conversation in July, as I follow up on our little bet.

Peace out brother,

LM

Edited January 5, 2009 by Loudmouth_Mormon