Don't Hate Me (LDS turned Christian Protestant)

[captainmoroni1265]

Hi captainmoroni1265-- "...If you're uncomfortable doing it here--then please send me a private message."

--Erik

Nice little barb, there.

Of course I'll answer in public (as if there were doubts?)

I will concede to your point that I am not in possession of specific links to past discussions. You have my apologies, and I retract my statement, TOWARD YOU SPECIFICALLY.

However, that being said: In the past, I have had unpleasant exchanges with person(s) calling themselves Erik (Eric) Johnson, with both spellings, on more than one website, for a NUMBER OF YEARS.

I apologize for asserting you were one in the same. What I SHOULD HAVE SAID was "this reminds me of another Eric Johnson I've known, who is a forum troll that throws out flame-bait and plays like he's a picked-upon victim."

You'll have to forgive me, but your title "Don't Hate Me Because I'm Christian" sounds very, very much like something the OTHER Erik Johnson I know would say.

Even if you are not him, I find the title to be offensive, because it PRESUPPOSES that Mormons will hate you because you are Christian. It shows to me you have a low estimation of how Mormons view other Christians. The statement also carries a presupposition that Mormons and Christians are (allegedly) totally different. That's a can of worms that most people on a forum like this would prefer not to open, I'm sure, for the sake of the peace.

I should have kept my comments relevant to the title of your post, rather than engaging in ad hominem assertions. That is my mistake. In the future I will qualify my statements more.

Oh, and by the way: I find the title of your private message to me to be interesting. You called it "a request for fair play." That choice of words presupposes that there is a question as to whether I or Mormons in general "play fair." That is also offensive to me. I confess to my bad manners in my first post about you, but that title you chose is equally laden with insult, on your part.

Edited January 31, 2009 by captainmoroni1265

[captainmoroni1265]

Hello Justice--

I'm not a fan of everything C.S. Lewis wrote, but I think he did us all a real service with Mere Christianity. When I was LDS, the emphasis was always on differences/divisions among the Christian churches, and how this proved the need for a restoration, modern prophets, etc. I encountered Lewis's book when I was still LDS, and it startled me to learn that the various Christian denominations are actually quite united in matters of core doctrine. I highly recommend the book. It may cause you to reconsider...

--Erik

I know what you mean about how good books can be influential. When I read James E. Talmadge's "The Great Apostasy," it startled me to learn about all the dissentions and factions and sects that existed after the apostles died. The more I delved into post-apostolic Christian history, the more confused I got about the many, many, different doctrines that existed, and the many differences that still exist today.

My brother reads alot about early Christian history. He's got a really cool book that talks about how Greco-Roman philosophy schools influenced the formation of post-apostolic creeds and doctrines. I don't have the title at the moment, but I can get it for you. It's an interesting read, and I highly recommend it.:)

[prisonchaplain]

You'll have to forgive me, but your title "Don't Hate Me Because I'm Christian" sounds very, very much like something the OTHER Erik Johnson I know would say.

Even if you are not him, I find the title to be offensive, because it PRESUPPOSES that Mormons will hate you because you are Christian. It shows to me you have a low estimation of how Mormons view other Christians. The statement also carries a presupposition that Mormons and Christians are (allegedly) totally different. That's a can of worms that most people on a forum like this would prefer not to open, I'm sure, for the sake of the peace.

I'm just picturing someone coming to a pentecostal forum and posting a "Don't hate me because I no longer believe in tongues." My response would not be, "How dare you insinuate that I hate you!" but rather, "No, I don't hate you. I just think you're wrong."

IMHO, there may be a bit of overreaction to the title. IMHO, it was likely meant to be "mock-squeemish." In other words, a bit of mild humor.

Oh, and by the way: I find the title of your private message to me to be interesting. You called it "a request for fair play." That choice of words presupposes that there is a question as to whether I or Mormons in general "play fair." That is also offensive to me. I confess to my bad manners in my first post about you, but that title you chose is equally laden with insult, on your part.

You confess to "bad manners" (meaning accusing him without substatiation, of strong anti-Mormon activity), then take offense that he asks you to play fair?

[gigi]

Dear Prison Chaplain,

I've always said that 'you' don't know what it's like to be Black until you wake up and find a Black face in the mirror. There is prejudice you don't notice all around us unless you're affected by that prejudice.

After the last year, in particular, with all the rage against Mormons and how we are not Christian, an evil cult, and far more such nonsense, sometimes we get a little defensive. We are not perfect as individuals, nor do we claim to be. In our church we don't dismantle or berate other Christians, but many do so to us. I know. I have a fundamentalist sister (I'm a convert) and a teacher at school who actually brought in dvds and pamphlets their church handed out to tell them how to attack our beliefs. Really? Is that the best use of your Sabbath Day worship, I wondered.

Please be patient with a group of misunderstood, misrepresented individuals who are trying to follow the teachings of our Savior and Redeemer in whom we place our hope, faith, love, and trust.

[prisonchaplain]

Gigi...point well taken. And please know...the last thing this white guy wants to do is tell a person of color that s/he is overracting to perceived racism. At the same time, if you read through Erik's intro string, he probably took at least a half dozen hits for each post he offered...and in my 3 years here, I can say with confidence that his messages, while perhaps a bit direct, were not antagonistic, or trollish. So, I'll take that order of patience--in fact, please super-size it. And...if anyone wants...I'm glad to share.

[captainmoroni1265]

I'm just picturing someone coming to a pentecostal forum and posting a "Don't hate me because I no longer believe in tongues." My response would not be, "How dare you insinuate that I hate you!" but rather, "No, I don't hate you. I just think you're wrong." IMHO, there may be a bit of overreaction to the title. IMHO, it was likely meant to be "mock-squeemish." In other words, a bit of mild humor.

Your characterization of my response is overly exaggerated. I never used the words "how dare," nor did I mean any kind of related tone. I am trying to say that I find his choice of words to mean far more than whimsical humor. I base this suspicion upon personal past experience with anti-mormons on other forums, and in my personal life. Many of them are very adept at word games, and go to great lengths to cast themselves as poor victims of Mormon backlash.

You are a peacemaker, and that I can respect.

However, please let me fill you in on some of my background. I served my Mormon-Christian mission in Orange County, California. At the time, that particular area was, (and I hear still is) a hotbed of intense anti-Mormon activity. Walter Martin lived there when he was alive, Ed Decker made frequent speaking appearances, Melodyland "Christian Center" (where Jessica Hahn used to work once) routinely made public showings of the temple film and priesthood robes, The Eagle's Nest declared a crusade against Mormons, and so on ad nauseum.

While tracting I had to deal with verbal abuse from anti-mormons every day. I'm not talking about average, honest citizens who politely told us no -- I'm talking about theological predators who would seek us out specifically to harangue us with tirades, or to flatter us with sweetie-pie "Christian Love" to "save us from our error."

You confess to "bad manners" (meaning accusing him without substatiation, of strong anti-Mormon activity), then take offense that he asks you to play fair?

My bad manners was in accusing him of being another "Erik Johnson" without proof. Never did I *specifically* accuse our Erik of being anti-mormon. I only tried to explain that I have suspicions about his motives for spending time on a Mormon forum, since he says he is so certain he is right for leaving the church. If the Mormon church is so wrong, why spend time still communicating with Mormons? Why not spend more time ministering to his fellow "modern" Christians?

I did not take offense about playing fair. I take offense of being accused of NOT playing fair.

If you read my post, I conceded his point, agreeing with him that I should play fair. HE was the one who became EXTREMELY defensive about being associated with the other Erik in his message to me. If it were me, all I would have said was "sorry dude, but you've got the wrong guy." That's it. That's all that was really needed, but he got very indignant. What was an honest mistake on my part was labeled by him as "unfair play." The label carries with it the presupposition that I am some kind of spiteful, ethically questionable person who doesn't play fair.

I have spent many years reading anti-mormon material and studying anti-mormon tactics. I have been active on other forums observing their behavior, and I am familiar with the word patterns they use to troll and flame-bait. They parrot the same patterns every time -- it is ridiculous how predictable some of them are.

I have also spent a lot of time studying sophistry, logical fallacies, Neuro Lingustic Programming, Ericksonian Hypnosis, and Communist Thought Reform. I have analyzed the psychological tactics that anti-Mormons use, and I have found they use quite a lot of the above techniques. So, when I see an anti-Mormon start in with their word games (speaking of other places, not this particular instance) I call them out on it.

I'll concede that Erik is a honest individual, seeking only peace and communication with Mormons, for whatever reasons he has. My reaction was based on prior negative experience. I confessed that to him already. My mistake was judging too quickly before observing more of the situation, which I have also confessed to Erik.

You have my commitment to think my words through more carefully, you have my commitment to respect others' right to disagree, HOWEVER -- I reserve my own right to be suspicious of a person's motives BEHIND their disagreement. Is it honest human difference, or is it a calculated method of trying disseminate anti-Mormon faith-poison. I have respect for honest human difference. I refuse to respect faith-poison.

[lisajo]

Alrighty then i will just let my self out using the back door, not going to fall for this one....

[prisonchaplain]

Thank you for your explanation, Captain. My experience in LDS evangelical dialogue is largely limited to this forum. So, based on my own history, here, it seemed that Erik was getting "pig-piled" on a bit, by a few posters. Sounds like you've worked it out, and I trust and expect that over time you will find this place a mostly safe and encouraging one to discuss you faith with the occasional non-LDS poster, and with members who nevertheless often express a wide variety of opinions and approaches.

[MormonMema]

I spent a lot of time on forums that allowed, and encouraged, Mormon bashing by ex-Mormons and anti-Mormons, and I've had my share of defending the faith in realtime, too (I live in the Southern Baptist Bible Belt). I have never understood why they can't just leave us alone. If they are perfectly satisfied with their religion, and are convinced that we are wrong, then, fine, more power to them. Let them go on with their lives, and enjoy the limited truth that they have rationalized is all there is. I have left many churches over my lifetime, but I've never gone back and harassed the members, Bible-bashed them, or tried to humiliate them, as anti-Mormons do to us. The worst offenders are the ex-Mormons who are angry at the Church, for whatever reason. I've seen them throw tantrums on the Internet, bad-mouthing everything from the Prophet to the Temple, with everything in between. I have been called everything from a polygamous prostitute (which is really strange, considering that I do not practice polygamy, and in fact am single, celibate and chaste), to brain-washed, brain-dead, and a hive-thinking "Morg" (a clever play on words that Trekkies might understand). So, my first thought on seeing this thread was, oh boy, here we go again. Why would anyone start a thread that way, assuming everyone would react with hate, and pitifully pleading, Don't hate me? I don't hate anyone because they have different beliefs than I do. I just wish they would allow me to live my religion in peace. Oh, and I've heard that old retort: then the Mormons should let me live in peace, and not send the missionaries to my door. It isn't the same at all. Our missionaries are probably the most non-threatening preachers of religion that there are, except maybe New Agers and Buddhists.

[tanuvasamama]

I just wish they would allow me to live my religion in peace. Oh, and I've heard that old retort: then the Mormons should let me live in peace, and not send the missionaries to my door.

If that's the reasoning, then do those same people attack the Jehovah's witnesses? Because I see those women down my street almost every week!

[captainmoroni1265]

Thank you for your explanation, Captain. My experience in LDS evangelical dialogue is largely limited to this forum. So, based on my own history, here, it seemed that Erik was getting "pig-piled" on a bit, by a few posters. Sounds like you've worked it out, and I trust and expect that over time you will find this place a mostly safe and encouraging one to discuss you faith with the occasional non-LDS poster, and with members who nevertheless often express a wide variety of opinions and approaches.

I have already apologized to him as he had asked in his PM to me, and he indicated that he accepted my apology.

I explained to him the case of mistaken identity, and he said he understood.

[captainmoroni1265]

I have left many churches over my lifetime, but I've never gone back and harassed the members, Bible-bashed them, or tried to humiliate them, as anti-Mormons do to us.

I've always wondered that myself. Consider the words of Gamaliel to his Rabbinical students, when the new "upstart" sect of Christians started to spread. He told them, in effect that if Christianity was false, just leave them alone and don't worry about it. God would take care of them and nobody would miss anything. But if the Christians were true, then it would be wise to respect them, or risk being judged by God for harming his people.

One thing I definitely know for certain: I am either a Mormon or I am Agnostic. I have seen enough of the inner workings of some "modern" Christian church organizations to make it very unlikely I would ever join any of them. I would associate with individual Christians ok, but none of the churches.

The worst offenders are the ex-Mormons who are angry at the Church, for whatever reason. I've seen them throw tantrums on the Internet, bad-mouthing everything from the Prophet to the Temple, with everything in between.

Their entire identity is wrapped up in trying desperately to justify their decision to leave.

They are consumed by the burning unconscious fear that maybe they actually might be wrong. This is especially seen in those who leave for reasons of transgression.

I have been called everything from a polygamous prostitute (which is really strange, considering that I do not practice polygamy, and in fact am single, celibate and chaste), to brain-washed, brain-dead, and a hive-thinking "Morg" (a clever play on words that Trekkies might understand).

So many accuse Mormons of not thinking for themselves, and then they parrot line for line all the old tired anti mormon rhetoric they get from their pastor. They can't think for themselves, either. I can remember being chased through a parking lot by a wild-eyed, mouth-foaming jesus-freak in a car. He was bound and intent on keeping my mission companion and I from leaving until he could finish his screaming harangue. I can remember having rocks thrown at me while I was on my bike. I can remember having brooms and baseball bats swung at me on doorsteps.

So, my first thought on seeing this thread was, oh boy, here we go again. Why would anyone start a thread that way, assuming everyone would react with hate, and pitifully pleading, Don't hate me? I don't hate anyone because they have different beliefs than I do. I just wish they would allow me to live my religion in peace.

I am glad to know that someone else saw through those words like I did.

[ErikJohnson]

I have already apologized to him as he had asked in his PM to me, and he indicated that he accepted my apology.

I explained to him the case of mistaken identity, and he said he understood.

captainmoroni1265 and I are good. his apology was gladly accepted. time permitting, we'll enjoy much further discussion.

--Erik

[jolee65]

Dear Prison Chaplain,

I've always said that 'you' don't know what it's like to be Black until you wake up and find a Black face in the mirror. There is prejudice you don't notice all around us unless you're affected by that prejudice.

After the last year, in particular, with all the rage against Mormons and how we are not Christian, an evil cult, and far more such nonsense, sometimes we get a little defensive. We are not perfect as individuals, nor do we claim to be. In our church we don't dismantle or berate other Christians, but many do so to us. I know. I have a fundamentalist sister (I'm a convert) and a teacher at school who actually brought in dvds and pamphlets their church handed out to tell them how to attack our beliefs. Really? Is that the best use of your Sabbath Day worship, I wondered.

Please be patient with a group of misunderstood, misrepresented individuals who are trying to follow the teachings of our Savior and Redeemer in whom we place our hope, faith, love, and trust.

GiGi, I know how you feel I have a sister that likes to remind me how wrong I am, BUT you stand with the cofindence you have about your love for The Father and The Son, you know for a fact how you feel and nobody can tell you different. I know that things build and wear on you but thats ok, it does on them too hating is a big job.

[Snow]

After a long night in prayer in early June of that year I yielded to God’s irresistible grace and became a Christian and was baptized later that summer.

Great - another critic who wants you to believe that members of the Church of Jesus Christ aren't Christian.

What a boor.

[pam]

hahaha Snow's back and I love it.

[AngelLynn]

Great - another critic who wants you to believe that members of the Church of Jesus Christ aren't Christian.

What a boor.

I never understood all the fuss either.

[prisonchaplain]

Great - another critic who wants you to believe that members of the Church of Jesus Christ aren't Christian.

What a boor.

Maybe he simply realized that he wasn't one? Doesn't matter what church you belong to if you haven't whole heartedly converted.

[Rico]

In early 2005 I attended an evening service at a non-denominational church that is theologically Reformed Baptist, Mars Hill Church in Seattle. The pastor was in the middle of a 12-month sermon series on Genesis. That evening, during his hour-long sermon, he read and covered every single verse in his chapter, presenting it in the context of the larger book and in the context of the Bible as a whole. It was the first time I could remember sitting in a church and hearing an entire Bible chapter read. In my LDS tradition, speakers would take a verse or two from one book, a verse or two from another and perhaps a third, and splice them together into a whole new context and meaning (invariably supporting LDS doctrine)—that often had nothing to with the original authors’ intent (at least it seemed to me). I was immediately drawn to the pastor’s approach to the Bible and I returned each Sunday evening to hear more (while still going to my LDS services in the mornings).

After a long night in prayer in early June of that year I yielded to God’s irresistible grace and became a Christian and was baptized later that summer. I resigned from the LDS Church shortly thereafter (although the resignation process proved something of an ordeal, lasting ~ 9 months and requiring repeated calls to Salt Lake City). I now enjoy a church where the Bible is held as inerrant and Jesus is worshiped as God. And since that time God has blessed me with a wife, and on the evening of December 24th 2008, a daughter. The awkward, misfit, “Single Adult” I once was—has been given a new life. And I know I owe it all to Grace. These days I lead a small group Bible study out of our house, and we’re now up to about 20 people. We’re currently studying 1 John on Tuesday nights, in the University District in Seattle, just a few blocks up from my old Mormon ward.

--Erik

Romans is a truly powerful book of the Bible. It's from Romans that I got further proof that the Church is true, that the Book of Mormon is true and that Joseph Smith was and is a prophet of God.

The Book of Mormon and the Bible go hand in hand, it's impossible to fully understand one without understanding the other.

You do owe everything you have to Grace. But just don't fall into the trap that says that all you need is Grace. :) I have a friend who says that it's all 100% grace and 0% works. He says there is absolutely nothing we can do to deserve salvation. When I ask him if it's possible to have salvation without going through the act of asking for salvation, he says you can't. He can never think of a reply when I tell him that asking for salvation is a work so therefore we MUST have works in order to be saved.

[J-Pip]

Erik your story was great, I too left mormonism and attend a bible teaching non-denominational chruch. I love listening to Pastor Mark Driscoll, he's so enthusiastic about the gospel. I'm planning a motorcycle trip up the pacific coast just to visit some churches up that way. You ought to check out Britt Merrick at Reality Carpenteria also.

When I get some more time I ought to read all 11 pages of this. I think you might be the EJ that I've been accused of being, after reading your story I guess I'd be proud for someone to confuse me with you. God Bless Brother. Let Mark and Mars Hill know that they're reaching out to more than just Seattle.

It's amazing how God has been working here in Utah, in the six or so months that i've been attending, our church opened a separate campus, and is now adding another service to accommodate the growth.

[prisonchaplain]

You do owe everything you have to Grace. But just don't fall into the trap that says that all you need is Grace. :) I have a friend who says that it's all 100% grace and 0% works. He says there is absolutely nothing we can do to deserve salvation. When I ask him if it's possible to have salvation without going through the act of asking for salvation, he says you can't. He can never think of a reply when I tell him that asking for salvation is a work so therefore we MUST have works in order to be saved.

Rico, repentence is not a work. That's the simple explanation you're looking for. Ephesians 2:8-9 makes it clear--I am saved by grace, through faith, not by works, so that no one can boast. If you wish to redefine faith or repentence as works in order to say that works are done, then you would appear to counter the very contrast Ephesians is making.

[gigi]

We're not racking up points. Faith is made evidence through thoughts, words, actions....works. It's not a point of comparison or even being worthy. It's an expression of love and gratitude for all we have.

[skalenfehl]

Wow. This is quite the introduction/welcome thread.

[Book_of_Mormon_Warrior]

Erik your story was great, I too left mormonism and attend a bible teaching non-denominational chruch. I love listening to Pastor Mark Driscoll, he's so enthusiastic about the gospel. I'm planning a motorcycle trip up the pacific coast just to visit some churches up that way. You ought to check out Britt Merrick at Reality Carpenteria also.

When I get some more time I ought to read all 11 pages of this. I think you might be the EJ that I've been accused of being, after reading your story I guess I'd be proud for someone to confuse me with you. God Bless Brother. Let Mark and Mars Hill know that they're reaching out to more than just Seattle.

It's amazing how God has been working here in Utah, in the six or so months that i've been attending, our church opened a separate campus, and is now adding another service to accommodate the growth.

If you stop by the Portland, Or area you should stop by "Living Hope Church" in Vancouver. They are growing super fast and John Bishop is a great teacher. I'll go with you if you want.

I'm also an xmo but I still believe in the Book of Mormon.

[blusun7]

Isiah 29:9-16

Amos 3:7

Amos 7(talks about how amos was chosen to be a prophet and how he tells tyre who inquires why he does what he does.