Don't Hate Me (LDS turned Christian Protestant)

[ErikJohnson]

Hi Erik,

Could you explain what you hope to gain on this forum? I'm thinking back to your comment on this thread, where you talk about an encounter with one of our missionaries:

Is that what you'd like to do here? Do you want to critique our beliefs and compare them to your interpretation of Biblical teaching?

In other words, and please forgive me for being blunt, are you coming here to rock our LDS boat? You can start as many introduction threads as you like, but if your purpose here is to lead people away from the LDS faith, I'm not sure you're on the correct message board. From what I understand (and mods, please correct me if I'm wrong), lds.net forums are here so faithful LDS folks can answer honest questions from people who actually want to know. They are not here for people who figure they already know the truth, and want to open our LDS eyes to it.

Again, moderators, if I'm off base here, please let me know. I'd love to engage Eric as he tries to tell me why my faith, the BoM, our prophets, etc. are wrong. But as far as I can tell, lds.net isn't for church critics to take their best shot.

LM

Hi Loudmouth_Mormon—

Regarding the previous thread you linked, that described an encounter my wife had with the LDS missionaries. I posted it because I was interested in an LDS response to the encounter, and I appreciated the responses I received. But the part about my showing up in an LDS service to critique a Gospel Doctrine class was purely hypothetical—I never had any such intent.

Regarding your comment that I can “start as many introduction threads as like”—let me assure you this will be my one and only introduction on the forum. I post under my own name, with my real picture, and I don’t do sock-puppets. What you see is what you get.

Regarding the purpose of this venue and whether it is appropriate to offer a critique of someone else’s beliefs—I’ve observed this site contains a “Christian Beliefs” forum for Christians (regardless of whether they have an LDS background) to dialogue with Mormons. I see nothing that limits the forum to “Christians” who are open-minded or seeking alternatives to doctrines like the Trinity, ex-nihilo creation, and the infallibility of Scripture. And keep in mind a committed Christian is to “contend for the faith” (Jude 1:3), albeit with humility and respect. You wouldn’t disagree with that admonition—would you?

Any questions I post will always be honest, L_M. I’m honestly interested in how LDS explain issues and answer questions (especially tough ones). That doesn’t mean I can be open-minded about the Person and Work of Christ or how I’ve seen God work in my life. And to take it further—I don’t think anyone is really free to choose his/her beliefs (our beliefs are a function of our heredity and our experience—until God wills otherwise). So no one who comes to this board is truly open-minded, in my opinion.

And now I’ll answer your first question—what do I hope to gain? Let me make clear that I don’t hope to convert anyone. Only God can do that. But I much enjoy dialogue and debate (I used to be one of those misfits in high school on the debate team). And when I first began attending Mars Hill (before I became a Christian), I strongly desired to discuss the things I was learning with other LDS. But no one in my ward had the time or interest. (In fact, when I read my resignation letter to my Bishop explaining why I was leaving—his only feedback to me was that it was “well written.” Funny how he had no inclination whatever to engage me over the substance of anything I had written.) This venue gives me an opportunity to discuss Christian vs. LDS doctrine. And it’s also helpful to me as I continue to engage with LDS locally. I currently have an LDS member in my church small group/Bible Study that we do Tuesday nights from my home. And of course, should God choose to use me as a tool to bring someone else to Christ, well—how could I refuse?

;0)

Hopefully you’ll appreciate my candor and we can have some good discussions going forward. I’m looking forward to it.

Appreciate your questions, L_M

--Erik

[Lyle]

[quote name= And of course, should God choose to use me as a tool to bring someone else to Christ, well—how could I refuse?

--Erik

It is truly a shame that you would call us LDS Christian in one moment and then say that you would bring us to Christ. Please be more considerate...

[georgia2]

Regarding the purpose of this venue and whether it is appropriate to offer a critique of someone else’s beliefs—I’ve observed this site contains a “Christian Beliefs” forum for Christians (regardless of whether they have an LDS background) to dialogue with Mormons. I see nothing that limits the forum to “Christians” who are open-minded or seeking alternatives to doctrines like the Trinity, ex-nihilo creation, and the infallibility of Scripture. And keep in mind a committed Christian is to “contend for the faith” (Jude 1:3), albeit with humility and respect. You wouldn’t disagree with that admonition—would you? CONTEND FOR THE FAITH DOES NOT MEAN TO BE CONTENTIOUS! SATAN IS THE GENERATOR OF CONTENTION. Contend for the faith means to stand up for it, and not to let the adversary knock you down ! We are to contend AGAINT SATAN NOT EACH OTHER!

Any questions I post will always be honest, L_M. I’m honestly interested in how LDS explain issues and answer questions (especially tough ones). That doesn’t mean I can be open-minded about the Person and Work of Christ or how I’ve seen God work in my life. And to take it further—I don’t think anyone is really free to choose his/her beliefs (our beliefs are a function of our heredity and our experience—until God wills otherwise). I AM A MEMBER OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST NOT BECAUSE OF HEREDITY, none of my parents or ancestors are members, i knew no members until I prayed and ask God if He really did appear to Joseph Smith. The only thing God wills is our FREE AGENCY ! So no one who comes to this board is truly open-minded, in my opinion.

In fact, when I read my resignation letter to my Bishop explaining why I was leaving—his only feedback to me was that it was “well written.” Funny how he had no inclination whatever to engage me over the substance of anything I had written.) HE MAY HAVE THOUGHT YOU WOULD BE CONTENTIOUS AND ALSO WAS GIVING YOU YOUR FREE AGENCY This venue gives me an opportunity to discuss Christian vs. LDS doctrine. Members of the CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST ARE CHRISTIANS ! CHRISTIANS ARE PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN JESUS AND ACCEPT HIM AS THEIR PERSONAL SAVIOR! THAT IS WHY THE CHURCH IS CALLED THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST ! And it’s also helpful to me as I continue to engage with LDS locally. I currently have an LDS member in my church small group/Bible Study that we do Tuesday nights from my home. And of course, should God choose to use me as a tool to bring someone else to Christ, well—how could I refuse?

;0) AS MEMBERS OF HIS CHURCH WE ARE ALREADY BROUGHT TO CHRIST. I COMMEND YOU FOR YOUR DESIRE TO WITNESS FOR JESUS, but, there is no need to bring contention to a group of fellow Christians who just disagree on some doctrine. There is no need for that.

WE already agree that Jesus Christ is the SOn of God, the Savior of all mankind, was crucified for our sins, was resurrected to overcome death and lead us in to eternal life.

I ALSO enjoy discussing the Gospel and the scriptures, but I don't need to join a forum to battle on points of doctrine that will be answered by and by and will not be achieved by close minded debate.

[ErikJohnson]

Thank you for your posting, Erik. Like you, I was born to a long-time LDS family (Parley P. Pratt is one of my many pre-Utah Mormon ancestors) and it didn't take. I started as and still am a skeptic and it was extremely interesting to compare our experiences.

I'm particularly interested in how LDS people wind up in other mainline religions. I think that that's fairly rare. Most "conversions" seem to be to agnosticism or atheism or, on the other hand, to other versions of Mormonism.

I've observed the same thing. When people leave the LDS Church it seems they disproportionately become agnostic or atheistic. I personally know only two other people in the Seattle area who were LDS and became Christian--and one of them is my younger brother, and the other I met at Mars Hill and he came to Christ while incarcerated in a Tijuana prison (and nearly lost his life there--it's an incredible story).

I'm definitely up for comparing notes and theories on this. I have my own idea. Shoot me a message or open a thread on the topic and we'll discuss.

--Erik

[Palerider]

Hi Loudmouth_Mormon—

Regarding the previous thread you linked, that described an encounter my wife had with the LDS missionaries. I posted it because I was interested in an LDS response to the encounter, and I appreciated the responses I received. But the part about my showing up in an LDS service to critique a Gospel Doctrine class was purely hypothetical—I never had any such intent.

Regarding your comment that I can “start as many introduction threads as like”—let me assure you this will be my one and only introduction on the forum. I post under my own name, with my real picture, and I don’t do sock-puppets. What you see is what you get.

Regarding the purpose of this venue and whether it is appropriate to offer a critique of someone else’s beliefs—I’ve observed this site contains a “Christian Beliefs” forum for Christians (regardless of whether they have an LDS background) to dialogue with Mormons. I see nothing that limits the forum to “Christians” who are open-minded or seeking alternatives to doctrines like the Trinity, ex-nihilo creation, and the infallibility of Scripture. And keep in mind a committed Christian is to “contend for the faith” (Jude 1:3), albeit with humility and respect. You wouldn’t disagree with that admonition—would you?

Any questions I post will always be honest, L_M. I’m honestly interested in how LDS explain issues and answer questions (especially tough ones). That doesn’t mean I can be open-minded about the Person and Work of Christ or how I’ve seen God work in my life. And to take it further—I don’t think anyone is really free to choose his/her beliefs (our beliefs are a function of our heredity and our experience—until God wills otherwise). So no one who comes to this board is truly open-minded, in my opinion.

And now I’ll answer your first question—what do I hope to gain? Let me make clear that I don’t hope to convert anyone. Only God can do that. But I much enjoy dialogue and debate (I used to be one of those misfits in high school on the debate team). And when I first began attending Mars Hill (before I became a Christian), I strongly desired to discuss the things I was learning with other LDS. But no one in my ward had the time or interest. (In fact, when I read my resignation letter to my Bishop explaining why I was leaving—his only feedback to me was that it was “well written.” Funny how he had no inclination whatever to engage me over the substance of anything I had written.) This venue gives me an opportunity to discuss Christian vs. LDS doctrine. And it’s also helpful to me as I continue to engage with LDS locally. I currently have an LDS member in my church small group/Bible Study that we do Tuesday nights from my home. And of course, should God choose to use me as a tool to bring someone else to Christ, well—how could I refuse?

;0)

Hopefully you’ll appreciate my candor and we can have some good discussions going forward. I’m looking forward to it.

Appreciate your questions, L_M

--Erik

For your information....when you send in a letter to have your name removed....its rare that a Bishop will address the content in your letter.....:)

[Palerider]

One other thing....its ok to discuss but the arguing is not allowed....

[ErikJohnson]

Hi georgia2—

I couldn’t help noticing all the red, bold, upper-case type along with all the exclamation points in your response (post #27). It appears you took very strong objection to the words I wrote. Let me assure you it’s not my desire to cause you any personal and/or emotional distress.

One of the things I’ve discovered in the past few years is that LDS often have their own definitions for words. And this frequently causes confusion and frustration for those on the outside. (I suspect this happens in all subcultures, including my own, so please don’t misread this as a criticism of LDS.)

So I’ll offer up a couple of definitions—not to argue with you—but with the desire that you’ll better understand and appreciate my meaning and usage going forward. And since I think these may become reoccurring themes, useful for future reference—I’ll keep it all right here on my introduction thread.

I’ll start with the definitions of contend and contention. The former is found in Jude 1:3, and the latter you tell us comes from Satan. According to the dictionary, you really can’t have one without the other. Contention is “the act of contending.” The words share the same root: Contendere, and contention is the past participle of that root. Therefore if anyone follows Jude’s (God’s) admonition and contends, then there will be contention, by definition.

Etymology: ME contencioun < OFr contention < L contentio < pp. of contendere: see contend

If you have a special definition for contention and would like to share it with us, please feel free to open a thread on the subject and post the link on this one. You might title it: If God admonishes Christians to contend—how can contention always be from Satan? I think that could lead to some interesting discussion.

Regarding your definition of Christian (“persons who believe in Jesus and accept him as their personal savior”)—there’s certainly nothing wrong with your words, but you don’t go far enough in my opinion. A little Church history to illustrate my point: In the 4th Century, a contention arose in Christianity. Certain people began to contend that Jesus was the Son of God and therefore like any son—he must have had a beginning. They insisted Jesus was a created being and therefore was not eternally God. This is referred to as the “Arian Controversy” (you can look it up on Wikipedia, if you’d like to know more).

You can see from this example of heresy in the early Church—a person can say he/she believes Jesus is the Son of God, and yet not believe Jesus is the eternal God, as Christians do. Such persons use Biblical language—but they aren’t true Christians, because they don’t recognize Jesus for who He really is (as revealed by God in Scripture). I’ll offer what I think is a better definition, one that precludes the confusion introduced by the Arians: A Christian is someone who worships Jesus as God.

Of course I’m not going to insist you (or anyone) accept my definitions. And I ask that you show me the same courtesy and not demand that I accept yours. Sometimes we’ll need to agree to disagree. Again, if you wish to open a thread on the subject and post the link here, we can discuss our differences further. I’m very agreeable to that!

Appreciate your reply, georgia2.

--Erik

[AngelLynn]

Hi and welcome to the board. I have no hate, or at least try and not to have a hate filled bone in my body. I was born into the Church. My parents were converts. I understand that finding the truth after being born, raised, and baptized into the LDS church can be a hard thing to live or to understand. In my life, I've often worried am I going on my own faith or the faith of my parents. I've also come to realize that living the LDS faith can be difficult. There is a certain amount of effort in living what you feel and believe as truth. Yet, I've read the BOM many times and have felt the sprit and have felt the sprit when I've gone to church. Being in any faith or church does give rise to all sorts of challenges to faith and testimony and it doesn't necessary have to be the LDS church. The world we live in doesn't always make it easy to keep faith or testimony, there will always be something that will test our faith and belief in God.

[jimuk]

Hi Erik, You were born into the church, you were taught for many years who Jesus is, and you understood and still know exactly who he is.

I would like to ask you a question Erik, why have you now turned away from knowing who Jesus is, i think this is a fair question.

I am asking you this as i am very curious why you no longer feel that Our father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are separate governing bodies that make up one Godhead in heaven.

After all your learning/teachings concerning Our father in heaven over the years, how long did it take for you to put them aside.

[georgia2]

Hi georgia2—

I couldn’t help noticing all the red, bold, upper-case type along with all the exclamation points in your response (post #27). It appears you took very strong objection to the words I wrote. Let me assure you it’s not my desire to cause you any personal and/or emotional distress.

One of the things I’ve discovered in the past few years is that LDS often have their own definitions for words. And this frequently causes confusion and frustration for those on the outside. (I suspect this happens in all subcultures, including my own, so please don’t misread this as a criticism of LDS.)

So I’ll offer up a couple of definitions—not to argue with you—but with the desire that you’ll better understand and appreciate my meaning and usage going forward. And since I think these may become reoccurring themes, useful for future reference—I’ll keep it all right here on my introduction thread.

I’ll start with the definitions of contend and contention. The former is found in Jude 1:3, and the latter you tell us comes from Satan. According to the dictionary, you really can’t have one without the other. Contention is “the act of contending.” The words share the same root: Contendere, and contention is the past participle of that root. Therefore if anyone follows Jude’s (God’s) admonition and contends, then there will be contention, by definition.

Etymology: ME contencioun < OFr contention < L contentio < pp. of contendere: see contend

If you have a special definition for contention and would like to share it with us, please feel free to open a thread on the subject and post the link on this one. You might title it: If God admonishes Christians to contend—how can contention always be from Satan? I think that could lead to some interesting discussion.

Regarding your definition of Christian (“persons who believe in Jesus and accept him as their personal savior”)—there’s certainly nothing wrong with your words, but you don’t go far enough in my opinion. A little Church history to illustrate my point: In the 4th Century, a contention arose in Christianity. Certain people began to contend that Jesus was the Son of God and therefore like any son—he must have had a beginning. They insisted Jesus was a created being and therefore was not eternally God. This is referred to as the “Arian Controversy” (you can look it up on Wikipedia, if you’d like to know more).

You can see from this example of heresy in the early Church—a person can say he/she believes Jesus is the Son of God, and yet not believe Jesus is the eternal God, as Christians do. Such persons use Biblical language—but they aren’t true Christians, because they don’t recognize Jesus for who He really is (as revealed by God in Scripture). I’ll offer what I think is a better definition, one that precludes the confusion introduced by the Arians: A Christian is someone who worships Jesus as God.

Of course I’m not going to insist you (or anyone) accept my definitions. And I ask that you show me the same courtesy and not demand that I accept yours. Sometimes we’ll need to agree to disagree. Again, if you wish to open a thread on the subject and post the link here, we can discuss our differences further. I’m very agreeable to that!

Appreciate your reply, georgia2.

--Erik

Hi, My main purpose in writing in red and bold type was to distinguish my response from yours.

[ErikJohnson]

Hi Erik, You were born into the church, you were taught for many years who Jesus is, and you understood and still know exactly who he is.

I would like to ask you a question Erik, why have you now turned away from knowing who Jesus is, i think this is a fair question.

I am asking you this as i am very curious why you no longer feel that Our father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are separate governing bodies that make up one Godhead in heaven.

After all your learning/teachings concerning Our father in heaven over the years, how long did it take for you to put them aside.

It would be a fair question, jimuk, if it was based on a fair premise—but I’m afraid your question isn't. No worries, I'll spell it out a bit further for you.

Here are some of the things I was taught about Jesus as a Latter-Day Saint (things you say I “still know exactly”)—

• Jesus is the Son of God, meaning that he was the first of Heavenly Father’s spirit children, our “elder brother”
• In a “pre-existence,” Jesus favored a plan involving “free agency” for all Heavenly Father’s spirit children. His plan was opposed by Lucifer (another of our spirit brothers). Jesus prevailed, and Lucifer along with 1/3 of the spirit children rebelled, and were cast out
• Jesus is “a God” (one of many, possibly infinite Gods—although speculation was discouraged)
• Jesus' atoning sacrifice was primarily in the Garden of Gethsemane. His sacrifice made reconciliation with Heavenly Father possible—but it did not finish the work
• Jesus visited some part of the American continent(s) immediately after his death
• We should never pray to Jesus or worship him as we would Heavenly Father

And honestly, jimuk—I could not and I did not believe any of those things. As I said in my post—this tension went on for years.

Here’s what I believe about Jesus today, as a Christian—

• Jesus is the Son of God, meaning that He is God (not “a God”), consistent with the doctrine of the Trinity (which I believe has a solid Biblical foundation)
• Jesus came into human history, God Incarnate—fully God and fully man (what theologians call the “hypostatic union”)
• Jesus died on the cross as a propitiation. He substituted himself for God’s wrath and punishment that was rightfully mine.
• With his death, he ransomed all his people. The work of salvation was complete when Jesus said, “It is finished”
• It is Christ’s righteousness (not my own) which I receive by faith that makes it possible for me to be with God in Heaven
• He will never lose me, no matter what may happen

And I do believe this, jimuk. Paul writes that faith is apportioned by God, that it is a gift of Grace (meaning unmerited favor). And I know I would never have reached such conclusions left to my own devices. I could never will myself into believing—or I would have willed myself into a believing LDS (motivated by the young woman I was courting and who dumped me over my inability to get a temple recommend in the late 90's).

To me, the fact I believe and have no hesitation in saying so is evidence of God’s grace upon me, and evidence of the new life I’ve been given. And I know I did nothing to merit God’s favor. What I deserve is hell--eternal punishment for sinning against an eternal God. And that awareness is extremely humbling, to put it mildly.

Hopefully this gives you some additional perspective. Regarding your last question concerning the timeline—it was seven years of struggle (as I willfully resisted what God was revealing to me in His Word) and one night of prayer and an amazing sensation peace when God saved me, despite myself.

In Christ,

--Erik

[jolee65]

So hes ment to be protestant, or what ever . I think I can move on.

But dont think you werent a christian the first time.

Edited January 13, 2009 by jolee65

[AngelLynn]

Here are some of the things I was taught about Jesus as a Latter-Day Saint (things you say I “still know exactly”)—

• Jesus is the Son of God, meaning that he was the first of Heavenly Father’s spirit children, our “elder brother”
• In a “pre-existence,” Jesus favored a plan involving “free agency” for all Heavenly Father’s spirit children. His plan was opposed by Lucifer (another of our spirit brothers). Jesus prevailed, and Lucifer along with 1/3 of the spirit children rebelled, and were cast out
• Jesus is “a God” (one of many, possibly infinite Gods—although speculation was discouraged)
• Jesus' atoning sacrifice was primarily in the Garden of Gethsemane. His sacrifice made reconciliation with Heavenly Father possible—but it did not finish the work
• Jesus visited some part of the American continent(s) immediately after his death
• We should never pray to Jesus or worship him as we would Heavenly Father

In order to accept these LDS doctrinal teachings you have to accept revelation from prophets and the revelation of new scripture as these are the places that LDS teachings come from. As well as having a testimony at the beginning that Joseph Smith as a restorer of these truths. But without a witness or testimony of these things it would be hard to accept LDS teachings.

Out of curosity and in no means offense, what was/is your view on Joseph Smith?

[prisonchaplain]

It might be useful for LDS here to note how Erik goes about this discussion. His focus is on doctrine--beliefs. As an evangelical, such an approach resonates. His struggle was not against people but ideas. He encounters Bible teaching that cannot be reconciled with his upbringing. His approach is not to defend personalities, but to get at which teachings are true. Of course, at the end of the day, which ones are true determines a lot of other beliefs too.

When you chat or post or have live conversations with evangelicals and you suggest, "Just pray about Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, etc." you must realize our difficulty. We wondering whether these new teachings we are hearing are true or not. Do the comport with the Bible I know? We have no stake in Joseph Smith's reputation...we just want to know what God says.

I'm sure Erik will share his view on Joseph Smith, but my guess is that his assessment will be based on whether his teachings were true, rather than judging teachings based on whether Joseph Smith was a prophet or not. Which came first the prophet or the prophesy? :-)

[AngelLynn]

It might be useful for LDS here to note how Erik goes about this discussion. His focus is on doctrine--beliefs. As an evangelical, such an approach resonates. His struggle was not against people but ideas. He encounters Bible teaching that cannot be reconciled with his upbringing. His approach is not to defend personalities, but to get at which teachings are true. Of course, at the end of the day, which ones are true determines a lot of other beliefs too.

When you chat or post or have live conversations with evangelicals and you suggest, "Just pray about Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, etc." you must realize our difficulty. We wondering whether these new teachings we are hearing are true or not. Do the comport with the Bible I know? We have no stake in Joseph Smith's reputation...we just want to know what God says.

I'm sure Erik will share his view on Joseph Smith, but my guess is that his assessment will be based on whether his teachings were true, rather than judging teachings based on whether Joseph Smith was a prophet or not. Which came first the prophet or the prophesy? :-)

You bring up a valid point PC. And telling an evangelical to pray about Joeseph Smith or the Book of Mormon when there is obviously a conflict (or something they feel conflicting) being waged in mind and soul is something that can't be resolved easily.

Whereas for some, for example my parents who were converts prayed and receieved a defintive answer for themselves to the teachings of the church. What is true for converts of the church and for their decendants can't be said for everyone. It is that witness from the sprit and essentially that leap of faith that causes people to choose their faith.

No where in LDS doctrine states that heaven (or the Three Degrees of Glory) will be exclusively a Mormon place. Despite what some LDS may think. The spritual journey that we all are on we are all attempting to head for the same place. We are striving for what God wants of us. So even though I am sure it pains a lot of LDS faithful and leaves a lot of LDS faithful scratching their heads as to why he left the LDS faith. However, he is still attempting for the same things we are but at a diffrent method and a diffrent way. Not everyone sees truth or prevcieves faith in the same way. It is a matter of perspective, as well as life experience and other factors as well. As because there are so many perspectives and God realizes that fact He gives many denominations and sects of His faith for His children.

And I am just asking what Erik about his views on Joesph Smith as I know he is aware that LDS do consider him a key point in acceptance of LDS doctrine. AndI assume he also had to pray about Joseph Smith as well as pray concerning the Book of Mormon as both of them go hand in hand with each other. At least that's part of the factor of having a testimony of the Book of Mormon as well and I am intrested in his views that he has had.

Edited January 13, 2009 by AngelLynn

[applepansy]

There is something that puzzles me about a belief in a Trinity.

Who was Jesus talking to on the cross when he said "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

applepansy

[FunkyTown]

There is something that puzzles me about a belief in a Trinity.

Who was Jesus talking to on the cross when he said "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

applepansy

Apple? Don't get in to a debate with Erik. He's been on Facebook in various LDS groups(Including Ask a Mormon), as well as several other sites that I've frequented. His purpose is always to proselyte and he gets genuinely angry if he feels the argument isn't going his way. Many months ago, I promised I wouldn't read anything he put and I still don't read any of his arguments. I would recommend not entering in to a debate with him.

[applepansy]

After rereading this thread all the way through again, I have to say that just because someone is born and raised in the LDS church doesn't mean they have their own testimony or felt the Spirit in the same way their parents and extended family have. There are examples in this thread.

We are a church of converts. We all have to find our own testimonies. When I was younger I wanted to feel the Spirit in the way recent converts to the church describe. I prayed and prayed and prayed . . .well you know the story. My answer "you already know" but while I knew I still wanted to have that wonderous feeling of the Spirit. So I started at the beginning and searched and studied as a new convert would, still my answer was "you already know" but this time it wasn't an admonision but rather a "strong peaceful, comforting feeling of thank you for learning more of Me"

Again, we are all converts.

Erik, I appreciate your honesty and openess. For me your search for Christ illusrates my point. Being born into an LDS family doesn't guarantee a testimony.

There is another thead about feeling the Spirit. There are many good suggestions but Dove reminded us all that is Charity, the true love of Christ, that is the most important way to feel the Spirit and I would add gain a testimony of Him.

applepansy

[applepansy]

Apple? Don't get in to a debate with Erik. He's been on Facebook in various LDS groups(Including Ask a Mormon), as well as several other sites that I've frequented. His purpose is always to proselyte and he gets genuinely angry if he feels the argument isn't going his way. Many months ago, I promised I wouldn't read anything he put and I still don't read any of his arguments. I would recommend not entering in to a debate with him.

FT, thank you for the advice. It was not my intent to start a debate or argument. I truly don't understand and was looking for understanding. A belief in the Trinity has always puzzled me.

applepansy

[AngelLynn]

There is something that puzzles me about a belief in a Trinity.

Who was Jesus talking to on the cross when he said "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

applepansy

This puzzles me as well Applepansy as I wonder about the voice in heaven that spoke after Jesus was baptized saying, "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased."

[AngelLynn]

Apple? Don't get in to a debate with Erik. He's been on Facebook in various LDS groups(Including Ask a Mormon), as well as several other sites that I've frequented. His purpose is always to proselyte and he gets genuinely angry if he feels the argument isn't going his way. Many months ago, I promised I wouldn't read anything he put and I still don't read any of his arguments. I would recommend not entering in to a debate with him.

I'll keep that in mind as well FT. But even though my parents are converts my father reminded me as a young girl to be tolerate of all religious groups and of all people who have a diffrent faith as we do and to respect their beliefs even though we may disagree.

[HiJolly]

Regarding your definition of Christian (“persons who believe in Jesus and accept him as their personal savior”)—there’s certainly nothing wrong with your words, but you don’t go far enough in my opinion. A little Church history to illustrate my point: In the 4th Century, a contention arose in Christianity. Certain people began to contend that Jesus was the Son of God and therefore like any son—he must have had a beginning. They insisted Jesus was a created being and therefore was not eternally God. This is referred to as the “Arian Controversy” (you can look it up on Wikipedia, if you’d like to know more).

You can see from this example of heresy in the early Church—a person can say he/she believes Jesus is the Son of God, and yet not believe Jesus is the eternal God, as Christians do. Such persons use Biblical language—but they aren’t true Christians, because they don’t recognize Jesus for who He really is (as revealed by God in Scripture). I’ll offer what I think is a better definition, one that precludes the confusion introduced by the Arians: A Christian is someone who worships Jesus as God.

Of course I’m not going to insist you (or anyone) accept my definitions. And I ask that you show me the same courtesy and not demand that I accept yours. Sometimes we’ll need to agree to disagree. Again, if you wish to open a thread on the subject and post the link here, we can discuss our differences further. I’m very agreeable to that!

--Erik

I agree that the Arian view is indeed false. On the other hand, I think the Donatism heresy was true and a valid part of the Gospel. As to judging whether one is a 'Christian' or not, I subscribe to C.S. Lewis' view:

"It is not for us to say who, in the deepest sense, is or is not

close to the spirit of Christ. We do not see into men's hearts. We

cannot judge, and are indeed forbidden to judge. It would be wicked

arrogance for us to say that a man is, or is not, a Christian in this

refined sense." (Mere Christianity, Touchstone, 1996, pp. 10-11.)

-- C. S. Lewis

I that sense, I believe faithful Mormons are indeed Christians.

HiJolly

[applepansy]

"It is not for us to say who, in the deepest sense, is or is not

close to the spirit of Christ. We do not see into men's hearts. We

cannot judge, and are indeed forbidden to judge. It would be wicked

arrogance for us to say that a man is, or is not, a Christian in this

refined sense." (Mere Christianity, Touchstone, 1996, pp. 10-11.)

-- C. S. Lewis

I that sense, I believe faithful Mormons are indeed Christians.

HiJolly

I agree. Thank you for posting C.S. Lewis' quote.

applepansy

[ErikJohnson]

Apple? Don't get in to a debate with Erik. He's been on Facebook in various LDS groups(Including Ask a Mormon), as well as several other sites that I've frequented. His purpose is always to proselyte and he gets genuinely angry if he feels the argument isn't going his way. Many months ago, I promised I wouldn't read anything he put and I still don't read any of his arguments. I would recommend not entering in to a debate with him.

Hi FunkyTown--

You're confusing me with someone else. I've only recently opened a Facebook account and I've never been on any LDS groups on that site. And there's only one other LDS related site I've posted on, and that was Mormon Apologetics Discussion (MAD).

It wasn't me! So feel free to engage. And I really don't get angry (a little exasperated at times--but never angry).

--Erik

[FunkyTown]

Hi FunkyTown--

You're confusing me with someone else. I've only recently opened a Facebook account and I've never been on any LDS groups on that site. And there's only one other LDS related site I've posted on, and that was Mormon Apologetics Discussion (MAD).

It wasn't me! So feel free to engage. And I really don't get angry (a little exasperated at times--but never angry).

--Erik

I really can't do that, Erik. If you aren't the same person, someone out there is using your profile pic to argue against Mormonism. In fact, I confirmed on Facebook before I made this posting that I wasn't making a mistake. It wasn't similar. It was, in fact, the exact same pic. That person used spurious logic, ignored everything that disagreed with him and then made ad hominem attacks when people pointed that out. At that point, when I informed the person using your profile pic that I would not pay any attention to any arguments he used, this person sent me an email - Which had this profile pic attached to it - And had a page and a half of something, but I'm not sure what it said because i had relegated him to someone I could safely ignore.

Most people here know that I have a tremendous amount of patience with other viewpoints. In fact, some of those I respect most (Like PrisonChaplain) are non-LDS members. However, if what you're saying is true, you might want to surf Facebook and find the person using your exact profile pic and get them to stop.