Rough Stone Rolling

[Maya]

Anyway some of it are writtings from other people than JS. It is really amazing how much we misunderstand others!Like once I was REALLY pi**** off by a collegue who sked me as I left the job for lunch (we were allowed to go from our workingplace on lunches) She asked me IF I was coming back... I was like WHAT? Why? Hey I got work to do even after lunch! So I answered her " No, why should I?" In a kind of suprised funny way, She only heard me not my tone and I lost my work. (they sent a substitute who came after I had come back and she never informned the leader about me beeing back and I tought that as her duty, since I had work to do!) Even today I have a reputation of going home from work too early! Work was ok but some of the co-workers stank! SO easy it is to get completely wrong ideas going around!

God knows our hearts and that is the only thing that counts!

[BenRaines]

bytor,

I can only imagine the frustration that Satan felt as he tried to thwart the restoration of the gospel. Here is someone with all knowledge of the pre-existence trying to keep the restoration from happening working on mortal men and women. From what I have read Pride is what most often got to the early members of the church, some looking for fame others looking for fortune.

As can be read by several of the early members, some of the witnesses to the golden plates and the angel that their division with Joseph Smith was not over doctrine or church organization but hurt feelings regarding personal or financial matters.

Ben Raines

[Hemidakota]

I am about half way into Rough Stone Rolling by Richard Bushman. For those that have read this book, did it strengthen your testimony? Hurt your testimony? Or no affect at all? Any surprises? How would you rate this book for accuracy?

I have mixed feelings about the book and the content. :)

Thanks- Bytor

Perhaps instead of reading books about this type of topic but seek a witness of the Prophet Joseph Smith?

[bytor2112]

Thanks Hemi........I do have a testimony of JS.:) My comments are just my current reflections......my opinion of JS and the church is rock solid and couldn't be swayed....thanks to the Holy Spirit.

[Palerider]

gotta ask this.....do you think the Q of the 12 meetings sometimes get heated???

[BenRaines]

Personally I don't think so. I think that they are so on the same page that it doesn't.

Can't say the same for 12 High Council members. Not heated but some very diverse opinions shared.

Ben Raines

[Hemidakota]

I would not use the term 'heated' but at times do not share the same thought or may agree on something.

[Palerider]

Personally I don't think so. I think that they are so on the same page that it doesn't.

Can't say the same for 12 High Council members. Not heated but some very diverse opinions shared.

Ben Raines

perhaps strong opinions....:)

[The_Seeker]

I read Rough Stone Rolling while I was investigating the church. It's been a while since I read it last, so the details are starting to get a little fuzzy -- I should read the book again. I think Bushman did a very even-handed job of portraying Joseph Smith, and it puzzles me that some church members have a negative reaction to the book.

Then again, I had read No Man Knows My History first, so that might color my perception a bit.

[Moksha]

I have always like George Santayana's saying that "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it". Thank goodness Richard Bushman gave us a fairly accurate and approved history book.

[Elphaba]

Not being a member, I would be SHOCKED if 95% of LDS members do not know this.

Not arguing, just struck me as a VERY high percentage.

The people I've talked to who had heard Joseph practiced polygamy thought he only married widows because there was no one to take care of them.

Like always, with my family, I'm wrong . . . until they discover I'm right.

And Elphaba is ALWAYS right. Right MOE?

Elphaba

[rockwoodchev]

I have always like George Santayana's saying that "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it". Thank goodness Richard Bushman gave us a fairly accurate and approved history book.

I'm not sure that you can say this is an "Approved History Book" Just because it is sold at Deseret Book doesn't mean it is "approved". Actually, if you listen to the bushman interviews with John Dehlin, Bushman mentions that the church has gotten out of the business of releasing history books.

One thing that amazes me is when some of you will mention that why would anyone read this type of book when you can just pray for a witness. With all the push in our church about keeping and reading history of the church. We study it once every 4 years, but in my mind, most people know very little about the history of our early leaders. In reality, there is very little that is in the official material that is even true.

How many people know the real story about polygamy and polyandry?

How many people know the real story about the peepstone and the "translation process"

How many people know about the Kinderhook Plates?

How many people know about the history about the Book of Abraham?

It just seems weird that in books like our study guides like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, not one single word is mentioned about Polygamy. But... when a book like RSR is read, it is all over the place. Crazy...

For me... RSR cemented in my mind many problems with early history of the church. If Joseph Smith was willing to "lie for the Lord" about Spiritual Wifery, what else would he lie about? I've yet to answer that question.

[Guest ceeboo]

How many people know about the Kinderhook Plates?

How many people know about the history about the Book of Abraham?

Hi rockwoodchev, :)

What are the " Kinderhook Plates "?

What is the history about the Book of Abraham ??

Thanks

Curious Ceeboo

[Hemidakota]

Noting several books, I would recommend if you can understand the mindset of Hugh's [Nibley] multiply thought processes, it is the best book for research.

Some further thought on this topic: Hugh W. Nibley: "Judging and Prejudging the Book of Abraham"

Nibley on the Facsimiles

Edited January 8, 2009 by Hemidakota

[Hemidakota]

Before Kerry Shirts shows up and beats me to the pulp, I do consider Kerry's work just as impressive as Nibleys work.

[Hemidakota]

Introductory Material

Book of Abraham Articles - from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism. Several short articles about various aspects of the Book of Abraham and issues surrounding it, put online by "All About Mormons".

A Joseph Smith Commentary on the Book of Abraham - by W.V. Smith. Download a copy of this excellent book from the Book of Abraham Project (BOAP). All aspects of modern Book of Abraham studies are discussed. (Note: the text is in WP 6.1 format, so make sure your word processor can read it.)

Prolegomena to any Study of the Book of Abraham - by Hugh Nibley. An early article by Nibley where he oulined what must be done for scholars to adequately study Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

The Book of Abraham as a Translation of Egyptian Papyri

LDS FAQ: Book of Abraham Part 1 - by Jeff Lindsay. An extensive review of the controversy surrounding the Book of Abraham and the Joseph Smith Papyri. Click here for Part 2.

A Tragedy of Errors - by John Gee. Review of C.M. Larsen's By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus in the FARMS Review of Books.

Review of Charles Larson "By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus" Part 1 - by Kerry Shirts. Part 1 deals with Larson's idea that holy scripture such as the Book of Abraham is suposed to be could not in any way be connected with pagan documents such as the Joseph Smith Papyri.

Abracadabra, Isaac and Jacob - by John Gee. Review of Edward H. Ashment's "The Use of Egyptian Magical Papyri to Authenticate the Book of Abraham: A Critical Review" in the FARMS Review of Books.

Criticism of Joseph Smith and the Book of Abraham - from the BOAP. Responses to various criticisms.

Review of "Egyptology and the Book of Abraham" Part 1 - by Kerry Shirts. Review of the Dialogue article by LDS egyptologist Stephen Thompson. Part 1 deals with the "Sons of Horus" in facsimiles 1 and 2. Part 2 deals with the ship representing the heavens in facsimile 2. Part 3 deals with the Hathor Cow Goddess figure in facsimile 2.

The Three Facsimiles from the Book of Abraham - by Hugh Nibley. Discusses Joseph Smith's interpretation of the three facsimiles in light of modern egyptology.

"Shinehah" as the Sun in Abraham 3:13 - by Kerry Shirts. An interesting example of an Egyptian word Joseph Smith nailed.

The "Star-Apes" of Facsimile 2: Egyptian Correlations - by Kerry Shirts. Can apes represent stars? Joseph Smith thought so, and he was right!

The Ship in Facsimile 2 as the Throne of God - by Kerry Shirts. There's too much here to be explained away as a "coincidence".

Abraham,Father of the Faithful, or the Pagan God Osiris? - by Kerry Shirts. Could Abraham actually have been connected with the Joseph Smith Papyri, including the Lion Couch scene in Facsimile 1? Kerry answers in the affirmative.

Notes on the Book of Abraham - Taken from Introduction to the Pearl of Great Price and Its Teachings, Copyright The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints Church Schools. Whoever wrote these notes takes the view that Joseph Smith DID use the JS Papyri to "translate" the Book of Abraham in a very unusual fashion.

Mnemonic Device of Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar and Joseph Smith Translation of the Book of Abraham - by John Tvedtnes and Richley Crapo. Examines the hypothesis that the sen-sen text was a mnemonic device for the Book of Abraham.

Fragment Found in Salt Lake City - by Hugh Nibley. Short preliminary article by Nibley where he talked about some of the difficulties faced in approaching the Joseph Smith papyri.

What is "The Book of Breathings"? - by Hugh Nibley. Discusses the Egyptian religious significance of some of the Joseph Smith Papyri, i.e. the sen-sen text.

Did Joseph Smith Know Egyptian? - short article from the FARMS newsletter, Insights: An Ancient Window.

The Crocodile God of Pharaoh in Mesopotamia - short article from FARMS' Insights (based on research by John Gee). Note: John Gee informs me that in every place in the article (including the title) where the word "Mesopotamia" (but not "Mesopotamian") occurs, the word should read "Syria."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

The Book of Abraham as a Jewish Document

Neglected Evidence on the Book of Abraham - by Hugh Nibley. This article, originally appearing in the Improvement Era, discusses the Book of Abraham in light of Jewish apocryphal stories about Abraham.

A Critical Analysis of the Book of Abraham in Light of Extra-Canonical Jewish Writings - by Rabbi Nissim Wernick. Rabbi Wernick was the leader of the Synagogue in Salt Lake City, and he went to BYU to get a doctorate in Religious Education. While there he became interested in the Book of Abraham, and decided to compare the extra-biblical details in the BofA to similar ideas found in extra-canonical Jewish writings for his dissertation. I don't know that Rabbi Wernick ever became LDS, but this dissertation is still striking confirmation of the Jewishness of the Book of Abraham - straight from a Jewish Rabbi. NOTE: This file is pretty huge.

The Book of Jasher and the Book of Abraham - by Kerry Shirts. Some critics have charged that Joseph Smith lifted the Book of Abraham from the Book of Jasher, a Jewish apocryphal document he could have known about. While it is not surprising to LDS that the Book of Abraham would have some parallels to such a document, Kerry shows why the contents of Jasher can actually account for very little of Abraham.

Human Sacrifice in the Book of Abraham - by Kerry Shirts. The Book of Abraham describes in some detail the Egyptian practice of human sacrifice. Those same details can also be found in Jewish sources other than the Bible.

Abraham's Vision of the Pre-Existent Host - by Barry Bickmore. The Book of Abraham account of this vision is briefly compared with that of the Apocalypse of Abraham, an apocryphal Jewish document unknown in Joseph Smith's day.

The "Angel of God's Presence" in Abraham 1:15-16 - by Barry Bickmore. The "angel of his presence" was actually Jehovah Himself? The Book of Abraham says so, and so did the earliest Israelite and Christian traditions!

The "Council of the Gods" in Ancient Literature and the Book of Abraham - by Kerry Shirts. The Book of Abraham presents a rather strange picture of a "council of the gods" as part of the premortal existence. What have scholars learned since the publication of the Book of Abraham concerning this gathering? Find out here!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

More Information

Kerry A. Shirts' Mormonism Researched Page- This page has all of Kerry's articles that are housed at this site (I've edited the ones here, though) as well as several more. Covers both the Egyptian and Jewish backgrounds for the Book of Abraham

Credit to Barry for the time in finding online documents....

[HiJolly]

I'm not sure that you can say this is an "Approved History Book" Just because it is sold at Deseret Book doesn't mean it is "approved". Actually, if you listen to the bushman interviews with John Dehlin, Bushman mentions that the church has gotten out of the business of releasing history books.

I agree with you on the 'approved' comment. But hey--- The Church is B-A-C-K in business.... Joseph Smith Papers

One thing that amazes me is when some of you will mention that why would anyone read this type of book when you can just pray for a witness.

FWIW, *I've* never said that.

With all the push in our church about keeping and reading history of the church. We study it once every 4 years, but in my mind, most people know very little about the history of our early leaders. In reality, there is very little that is in the official material that is even true.

Really? I think you've gone way too far on that one. Sometimes saying everything we know is not the right thing to do. In this case, I think the setting makes all the difference.

How many people know the real story about polygamy and polyandry?

I'd guess about 10% and 2% of the active members, respectively. I know I'm pulling #'s out of thin air.

How many people know the real story about the peepstone and the "translation process"

I'll bet *you* don't, no offense intended. I'm sure you know about the hat and the glowing letters and the two stones (as well as the "Nephite Interpreters") --- and that's pretty good. But it ain't ALL, my friend. The spirit played a role, and I don't think there's any direct description of how that worked other than "by the power and gift of God". And I really think that should be enough. Let the Book speak for itself.

How many people know about the Kinderhook Plates?

Guessing-- 2% of the active members.

How many people know about the history about the Book of Abraham?

About 5% for most of it, (the parts written about in the Ensign magazine), and only 2% for the really interesting parts. At a guess.

Your point, though, seems to be that the Church should be teaching all this history. If so, I really think you're wrong.

It just seems weird that in books like our study guides like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, not one single word is mentioned about Polygamy. But... when a book like RSR is read, it is all over the place. Crazy...

One is secular, the other is faithful. It is not at all "Crazy". Everything has a purpose.

For me... RSR cemented in my mind many problems with early history of the church. If Joseph Smith was willing to "lie for the Lord" about Spiritual Wifery, what else would he lie about? I've yet to answer that question.

Keep working on it. Read the testimonies given in D.C. concerning polygamy decades later. I've pondered it for decades, and I'm doing very well with it, thank you very much. If it weren't for the history of Joseph Smith Jr., I would never have had the courage to become a mystic. He's my hero.

HiJolly

Edited January 9, 2009 by HiJolly
Clarification and spelling (and shhh... revising percentages)

[HiJolly]

Before Kerry Shirts shows up and beats me to the pulp, I do consider Kerry's work just as impressive as Nibleys work.

Brown noser.

Kerry is NOT in Nibley's league, much as I love the guy. We are both mystics and we see each other once a year or so. He's awesome, and way smart, but not all that.

HiJolly

[Moksha]

I like his Backwoods Professor videos. Nibley did not put any of his videos on YouTube!

:)

[hordak]

The people I've talked to who had heard Joseph practiced polygamy thought he only married widows because there was no one to take care of them.

Elphaba

I recall being taught as a youth that the main reason for polygamy was so that the women traveling to Utah would have the Priesthood in their family as they traveled. Whether this is right or wrong it ignores the fact it was practiced before BY and that some of these women had already been married.

I don't know if this came from a manual or personal opinion but I have heard many members who really don't know the history come up with these sorts of "soft ball" answers.

[FlaviusHambonius]

I finished reading RSR several weeks ago and thought it was a great book. It took me quite awhile to get through as time allowed, which is not the way I like to read a book.

I had heard about it a couple of years ago from a non-Mormon and when I read a couple of reviews on it. They basically said that it wouldn't effect your views on Mormonism, one way or the other, whether you were LDS or non-LDS, at least the couple that I read.

I have heard it said that Bushman is one of the premiere historians when it comes to Joseph Smith, and I appriciate his work on this book, and thought in my mind that he was pretty fair and balanced with the good, the bad and the ugly regarding Joseph Smith.

I must say at times I felt like I was on a roller-coaster ride at times regarding JS in this book. Sometimes I was shaking my head about JS and then sometimes coming back to a somewhat even keel regarding this man. It seems like Bushman at times would shovel the dirt on him only to bring you back to Josephs way of thinking or perspective or so it seemed to me at times.

The disiplinary council I thought for the most part was a joke, or should I say disturbing. Joseph brought these people in to these councils who had either offended him or had acused him of him of inappropriate behavior in their eyes, and the next thing you know, it's either Joseph's way or the highway or in their case a dirt road.

It seems as though the other party was always shown to be the guilty party by Joseph and the bretheren and that Joseph was alway's right of course. I don't remember one time that JS actually admitted that he was perhaps in the wrong. It was always, always, the other guy--as best that I can remember. Of course, after the offending party would concede to their supposed guilt, the JS would soften his heart and forgive the offender and all would be well in Zion----what a load of BS. (IMO)

I had to respect Oliver Cowdry for standing his ground against JS with his accusation of "the filthy, dirty scandalous affair" regarding Joseph and Fanny Alger. Oliver never recanted his accusation if memory serves me and it wasn't long after that Oliver was ex-communicated. Joseph's main concern was that he was shown not to have committed adultry---why?----because Joseph had taken Fanny to be his 'spiritual wife'---secretly of course. This would have been years before the doctrine came out.

I might not be exactly precise with the info--but I think I'm pretty close--like I say I read it in segments over a too long of a period.

I'm currently reading 'Mormon Enigma:Emma Hale Smith' with about 100 pages to go, and all I can say is-- WOW--hopefully I can get it knocked out by the weekend. I have enjoyed this book even more than RSR.

Yes, to say that JS was human and flawed is an understatment (IMO)--but then aren't we all?

[FlaviusHambonius]

Perhaps instead of reading books about this type of topic but seek a witness of the Prophet Joseph Smith?

So what's wrong with reading this type of book? Especially if it's from an LDS author who is supposedly one of the great historians on the life of Joseph Smith? Is it better to go hide under a rock regarding Mormon history or is it better to get a more accurate version of events, or shall I say a more rounded or fuller account.

[kindel]

On 1/6/2009 at 7:43 PM, bytor2112 said:

The book hasn't hurt or helped my testimony. But, I must confess, I am a bit disturbed to learn about all of the bickering and accusations among early church leaders and what is up with all of the disciplinary councils????? The behavior seems very un-Christ like IMO. I was also surprised by all of the accounts of tongues and the "possession" by evil spirits.

The church grew despite the confusion and contention, I can only guess because of the Holy Ghost. That is why I am a member....without that and I wouldn't be a member of this or any church....probably.

I can only "Guess" because of the holy ghost. Indeed, one thing is very clear for the honest researcher. If you plan to stay in the Mormon church it takes a bit of confirmation bias which is faith. You know, believing in something first and then allowing the spirit to confirm it. And hey if you are happy I salute you. I support agency, but looking for a way to PROVE the church is true or find facts is not going to happen. Gonna have to use faith.

[Grunt]

On 2/15/2023 at 6:09 PM, kindel said:

If you plan to stay in the Mormon church it takes a bit of confirmation bias which is faith. You know, believing in something first and then allowing the spirit to confirm it. 

I disagree.  I didn't have to believe the Church was true in order to have the Holy Ghost confirm it.  I just had to be open to the possibility and act in faith.  They are very different things.   My conversion process was FULL of things that I didn't believe, but acted in faith upon and received confirmation.  It also had many instances of getting punched in the face with truth while heading in the wrong direction.

[mirkwood]