? on the 12 apostles

[Palerider]

Do they still classify unmarried men over the age of 25 as "menaces to society"? Would a menace make a good Bishop?

I am positive he would......

[Elgama]

I thought single men couldn't be Bishop or Stake President? - in cases of being widowed or divorced here they have always been released straight away - is it just an idiosyncrasy here?

-Charley

[Hemidakota]

i was having a discussion with a friend and he said one of the 12 apostles of the LDS church had been divorced, i told him from what i know about the LDS church i did not think that was true but not being a member of the LDS i would try to find out if that was true, can anyone confirm or deny this ?

Did the friend provide a name?

[Hemidakota]

Elder Oaks remarried after the passing of his wife....

Being prompted by the Spirit to do so....

[tomxsumm]

I have a family member that has been divorced and remarried (temple), been a bishop 3 years now. Not everything is done by the book I guess.

[KristofferUmfrey]

It probably depends on the circumstances of the divorce as to whether the can serve as a Bishop after remarrying.

[BenRaines]

As I said earlier in this thread I don't think that there is anything in the General Handbook of Instructions that says a man, who was formerly married and divorced, could not be called to be Bishop. I believe that there are New Testament scriptures that say a Bishop must be a married man.

Ben Raines

[Hemidakota]

Correct...

Remarks By President George A. Smith

Celestial Marriage-Bishops and Deacons Should be Married-Divorce

Delivered in the New Tabernacle, Salt Lake City, October 8, 1869

(Reported by John Grimshaw.)

It is a difficult undertaking to address this immense audience. If a man commences speaking loud, in a short time his voice gives out; whereas, if he commence rather low, he may raise his voice by degrees, and be able to sustain himself in speaking some length of time. But with children crying, a few persons whispering, and some shuffling their feet, it is indeed a difficult task to make an audience of ten thousand persons hear. I have listened with pleasure to the instructions of our brethren from the commencement of our Conference to the present time. I have rejoiced in their testimonies. I have felt that the elders are improving in wisdom, in knowledge, in power, and in understanding; and I rejoice in the privilege, which we have at the present day, of sending out to our own country a few hundred of the elders who have had experience-who have lived in Israel long enough to know, to feel, and to realize the importance of the work in which they are engaged-to understand its principles and comprehend the way of life. They can bear testimony to a generation that has nearly grown from childhood since the death of the Prophet, Joseph Smith.

The Lord said in relation to those who have driven the Saints that He would visit "judgment, wrath, and indignation, wailing and anguish, and gnashing of teeth upon their heads unto the third and fourth generation, so long as they repent not and hate me, saith the Lord your God."

I am a native of Potsdam, St. Lawrence County, New York-a town somewhat famous for its literary institutions, its learning and the religion and morality of its inhabitants. I left there in my youth, with my father's family, because we had received the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as revealed through Joseph Smith; and followed with the Saints through their drivings and trials unto the present day.

I have never seen the occasion, nor let the opportunity slip, from the time when I first came to a knowledge of the truth of the work of the Lord in the last days, that I understood it was in my power to do good for the advancement of this work, but what I have used my utmost endeavours to accomplish that good. I have never failed to bear a faithful testimony to the work of God, or to carry out to all intents and purposes, the wishes and designs of the Prophet, Joseph Smith. I was his kinsman; was familiar with him, though several years his junior; knew his views, his sentiments, his ways, his designs, and many of the thoughts of his heart, and I do know that the servants of God, the Twelve Apostles, upon whom he laid the authority to bear off the Kingdom of God, and fulfil the work which he had commenced, have done according to his designs, in every particular, up to the present time, and are continuing to do so. And I know, furthermore, that he rejoiced in the fact that the law of redemption and Celestial Marriage was revealed unto the Church in such a manner that it would be out of the power of earth and hell to destroy it; and that he rejoiced in the fact that the servants of God were ready prepared, having the keys to bear off the work he had commenced. Previous to my leaving Potsdam, there was but one man that I ever heard of in that town who did not believe the Bible. He proclaimed himself an atheist, and he drowned himself.

The Latter-day Saints believe the Bible. An agent of the American Bible Society called on me the other day and wanted to know if we would aid the Society in circulating the Bible in our Territory? I replied yes, by all means, for it was the book from which we were enabled to set forth our doctrines, and especially the doctrine of plural marriage.

There is an opinion in the breasts of many persons, who suppose that they believe the Bible, that Christ, when he came, did away with plural marriage, and that he inaugurated what is termed monogamy; and there are certain arguments and quotations used to maintain this view of the subject, one of which is found in Paul's first epistle to Timothy (3 chap. 2 v.), where Paul says: "A bishop should be blameless, the husband of one wife." The friends of monogamy render it in this way: "A bishop should be blameless, the husband of but one wife." That would imply that any one but a bishop might have more. But they will say, "We mean a bishop should be blameless, the husband of one wife only." Well, that would also admit of the construction that other people might have more than one. I understand it to mean that a bishop must be a married man.

A short time ago, the Minister from the King of Greece to the United States called on President Young. I inquired of him in relation to the religion of his country, and asked him if the clergy were allowed to marry. It is generally understood that the Roman Catholic clergy are not allowed to marry. How is it with the Greek clergy? "Well," said he, "all the clergy marry, except the bishop." I replied, "You render the saying of Paul differently from what we do. We interpret it to mean-a bishop should be blameless, the husband of one wife at least," and "we construe it," said he, "directly the opposite."

Now this passage does not prove that a man should have but one wife. It only proves that a bishop should be a married man. The same remark is made of deacons, that they also should have wives. Another passage is brought up where the Saviour speaks of divorce. He tells us that it is very wrong to divorce, and that Moses permitted it because of the hardness of their (the little children of Israel's) hearts. A man should leave his father and his mother and cleave unto his wife, and they twain should be one flesh. That is the principal argument raised that a man should have but one wife.

In the New Testament in various places, certain eminent men are referred to as patterns of faith, purity, righteousness and piety. For instance, if you read the epistle of Paul to the Hebrews, the 11th chapter, you find therein selected those persons "who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turning to flight the armies of the aliens;" and it is said by faith Jacob blessed the two sons of Joseph, and that he conferred upon them a blessing to the uttermost bounds of the everlasting hills. Who was Joseph? Why, Joseph was the son of Rachel. And who was Rachel? Rachel was the second wife of Jacob, a polygamist. Jacob had four wives, and after he had taken the second (Rachel), she, being barren, gave a third wife unto her husband that she might bear children unto him for her; and instead of being displeased with her for giving her husband to another wife, God heard her prayer, blessed her, worked a miracle in her favour by opening her womb, and she bore a son, and called his name Joseph, rejoicing in God, whom she testified would give her another son. The question now arises, were not Rachel and Jacob one flesh? Yes. Leah and Jacob were also one flesh. Jacob is selected by the Apostle Paul as a pattern of faith for Christians to follow; he blessed his twelve sons, whom he had by four wives. The law of God, as it existed in those days, and as laid down in this book (the Bible) makes a child born of adultery or of fornication a bastard; and the same is prohibited from entering into the congregation of the Lord unto the tenth generation.

Now, instead of God's blessing Rachel and Jacob and their offspring, as we are told He did, we might have expected something entirely different, had it not been that God was pleased with and approbated and sustained a plurality of wives.

While we are considering this subject, we will inquire, did the Saviour in any place that we can read of, in the course of his mission on the earth, denounce a plurality of wives? He lived in a nation of Jews; the law of Moses was in force, plurality of wives was the custom, and thousands upon thousands of people, from the highest to the lowest in the land, were polygamists. The Saviour denounced adultery; he denounced fornication; he denounced lust; also divorce; but is there a single sentence asserting that plurality of wives is wrong? If so, where is it? Who can find it? Why did he not say it was wrong? "Think not," said he, "that I am come to destroy the law or the Prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Not one jot or one tittle shall pass from the law and the Prophets; but all shall be fulfilled." Of what does the Saviour speak when he refers to "the law?" Why, of the Ten Commandments, and other rules of life commanded by God and adopted by the ancients, and which Brother Pratt referred to yesterday, showing you from the sacred book that God legislated and made laws for the protection of a plurality of wives (Exod. 21. 10), and that He commanded men to take a plurality under some circumstances. Brother Pratt further showed that the Lord made arrangements to protect to all intents and purposes the interests of the first wife; and to shield and protect the children of a wife from disinheritance who might be unfortunate enough not to have the affections of her husband. (Deut. 21. 15.) These things were plainly written in the law-that law of which the Saviour says, "Not one jot or one tittle shall pass away." Continuing our inquiry, we pass on to the epistles of John the Evangelist, which we find in the Book of Revelations, written to the seven churches of Asia. In them we find the Evangelist denounces adultery, fornication, and all manner of iniquities and abominations of which these churches were guilty. Anything against a plurality of wives? No, not a syllable. Yet those churches were in a country in which plurality was the custom. Hundreds of Saints had more wives than one; and if it had been wrong, what would have been the result? Why, John would have denounced the practice, the same as the children of Israel were denounced for marrying heathen wives, had it not been that the law of plurality was the commandment of God.

Again, on this point, we can refer to the Prophets of the Old Testament-Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and others. When God called those men He warned them that if they did not deliver the message to the people which He gave them concerning their sins and iniquities that His vengeance should rest upon their heads. These are His words to Ezekiel, "Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel, therefore hear the word at my mouth and give them warning from me. When I say unto the wicked, thou shalt surely die, and thou givest him not warning nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way to save his life, the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity but his blood will I require at thine hand; yet if thou warn the wicked and he turn not from his wickedness nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity, but thou hast delivered thy soul." (Ezek. 3:17, 18, 19.) How do we find these Prophets of the Lord fulfilling the commandments of the Almighty? We find them pouring out denunciations upon the heads of the people-against adultery, fornication, and every species of wickedness. All this, too, in a country in which, from the King down to the lowest orders of the people, a plurality of wives was practiced. Do they say anything against plurality of wives? Not one word. It was only in cases where men and women took improper license with each other, in violation of the holy law of marriage, that they were guilty of sin.

If plurality of wives had been a violation of the seventh commandment those prophets would have denounced it, otherwise their silence on the matter would have been dangerous to themselves, inasmuch as the blood of the people would have been required at their hands. The opposers of Celestial Marriage sometimes quote a passage in the seventh chapter of Romans, second and third verses, to show that a plurality of wives is wrong; but when we come to read the passage it shows that a plurality of husbands is wrong. You can read that passage for yourselves. In the forcible parable used by the Saviour in relation to the rich man and Lazarus, we find recorded that the poor man Lazarus was carried to Abraham's bosom-Abraham the father of the faithful. The rich man calls unto Father Abraham to send Lazarus, who is afar off. Who was Abraham? He was a man who had a plurality of wives. And yet all good Christians, even pious church deacons, expect when they die to go to Abraham's bosom. I am sorry to say, however, that thousands of them will be disappointed, from the fact that they cannot and will not go where any one has a plurality of wives; and I am convinced that Abraham will not turn out his own wives to receive such unbelievers in God's law. One peculiarity of this parable is the answer of Abraham to the application of the rich man, to send Lazarus to his five brothers "lest they come into this place of torment," which was-"they have Moses and the prophets, let them hear them; and if they hear not Moses and the prophets neither would they be persuaded though one rose from the dead." Moses' law provided for a plurality of wives, and the prophets observed that law, and Isaiah predicts its observance even down to the latter days. Isaiah in his 4th chap. and 1st and 2nd verses, says, "Seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, we will eat our own bread and wear our own apparel, only let us be called by thy name to take away our reproach. In that day shall the branch of the Lord be beautiful and glorious and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent."

A reference to the Scriptures shows that the reproach of women was to be barren, Gen. 30 chap. and 23 v.; Luke 1st chap. and 25 v.

We will now refer to John the Baptist. He came as a fore-runner of Christ. He was a lineal descendant of the house of Levi. His father was a priest. John the Baptist was a child born by miracle, God having revealed to his father that Elizabeth who had been many years barren should bear a son. John feared not the world, but went forth preaching in the wilderness of Judea, declaiming against wickedness and corruption in the boldest terms. He preached against extortion; against the cruelty exercised by soldiers and tax gatherers. He even was so bold as to rebuke the king on his throne, to his face, for adultery. Did he say anything against a plurality of wives? No; it cannot be found. Yet thousands were believers in and practised this order of marriage, under the law of Moses that God had revealed.

In bringing this subject before you, we cannot help saying that God knew what was best for His people. Hence He commanded them as He would have them act. The law regulating marriage previous to Moses, recognized a plurality of wives. Abraham and Jacob and others had a plurality. These are the men who are referred to in Scripture as patterns of piety and purity. David had many wives. The Scriptures say that David did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord and turned not aside from anything that he commanded him all the days of his life, save in the matter of Uriah the Hittite, 1 Kings 15:5. "I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart which shall fulfil all my will. Of this man's seed hath God, according to His promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus." Acts 13:22, 23. Did David sin in taking so many wives? No. In what, then, did his sin consist? It was because he took the wife of Uriah, the Hittite-that is, violated the law of God in taking her. The Lord had given him the wives of Saul and would have given him many more; but he had no right to take one who belonged to another. When he did so the curse of adultery fell upon his head, and his wives were taken from him and given to another. We will now inquire in relation to the Saviour himself. From whom did he descend? From the house of David a polygamist; and if you will trace the names of the families through which he descended you will find that numbers of them had a plurality of wives. How appropriate it would have been for Jesus, descending as he did from a race of polygamists, to have denounced this institution of plural marriage and shown its sinfulness, had it been a sin! Can we suppose, for one moment, if Patriarchal marriage were wrong, that He would, under the circumstances, have been silent concerning it or failed to denounce it in the most positive manner? Then if plural marriage be adultery and the offspring spurious, Christ Jesus is not the Christ; and we must look for another.

All good Christians are flattering themselves with the hope that they will finally enter the gates of the New Jerusalem. I presume this is the hope of all denominations-Catholics, Protestants, Greeks and all who believe in the Bible. Suppose they go there, what will they find? They will find at the twelve gates twelve angels, and "names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel." The names of the twelve sons of Jacob, the polygamist. Can a monogamist enter there? "And the walls of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb;" and at the gates the names of the twelve tribes of Israel-from the twelve sons of the four wives of Jacob. Those who denounce Patriarchal Marriage will have to stay without and never walk the golden streets. And any man or woman that lifts his or her voice to proclaim against a plurality of wives, under the Government of God, will have to seek an inheritance outside of that city. For "there shall in no wise enter into it, anything that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination or maketh a lie, for without are sorcerers, whoremongers, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." Is not the man that denounces Celestial Marriage a liar? Does he not work abomination? "I Jesus have sent mine Angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of (the polygamist) David, the bright and the morning star."

May God enable us to keep His law, for "blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life and may enter in through the gate into the city." Amen.

[ldslesson]

I think the big question would be about the apostles. If you go to Search - LDS Newsroom. This links to the background info for Boyd K. Packer. If you then enter into the search box you can search each apostle and get the info for each of them. The result will be that none of them have ever been divorced. Some have remarried. Hope that helps answer the question.

[SmilingRedhead]

(My apologies for digressing from the main question - just wanted to share this...)

Our current Bishop is divorced but remarried years before he became Bishop.

I heard from his daughter (my sister-in-law) that he had said he was 'safe' from becoming a Bishop because he had been divorced. A few months later he was called as our Bishop with the approval of The First Presidency. :)

[Hemidakota]

ok now i am confused can you be one of the twelve apostles if you have been divorced does it matter if you remarried, has there been any of the twelve apostles that have been divorced or could you be one of the twelve apostles if you have been divorced i want to make sure i am not misrepresenting the LDS position

No...

[rameumptom]

Divorce does not disqualify a person from being a Bishop. You have to be married for five years and worthy.

While divorce would be rare among GAs, Brigham Young did have one of his plural wives leave him. Brigham Young's policy on polygamist's divorce was: men could not have one, but the women could. Very different than the view given by many polygamists today.

Elder Rudger Clawson (imprisoned for 4 years) was also divorced, when his first wife demanded he renounce polygamy and choose either her (Florence) or Lydia (his second wife). He refused to divorce either, and so Florence divorced him in a civil court. He still considered her sealed to him.

Edited January 12, 2009 by rameumptom

[Hemidakota]

Not relating to Polygamy...

Late edit: Certainly, many other plural wives similarly pioneered new regions, and the broad picture of hard work and poverty sketched by Ida and Catharine was typical of life on the frontier. In terms of harmonious families, these two women were also in the majority if Kimball Young is right in judging that 53 percent of plural families were highly or reasonably successful. 17 Indeed, of the combined eight wives of Romney and Udall, only one obtained a divorce (in a much larger study, 18 percent of plural wives divorced 18) and that one divorce took place before Catharine married into the family. The Romney and Udall families, whatever their problems, were apparently more compatible than many others. Kathryn M. Daynes, "Plural Wives and the Nineteenth-Century Mormon Marriage System: Manti, Utah, 1849-1910" (Ph.D. diss., Indiana University, 1991), 251.

Edited January 12, 2009 by Hemidakota

[applepansy]

Divorce does not disqualify a person from being a Bishop. You have to be married for five years and worthy.

Could you provide a reference?

[rameumptom]

It is what my former stake president told me when he interviewed me as a potential bishop candidate. I would say it is one of Pres Packer's "unwritten rules" that ensures we don't call someone a bishop who does not show strength in his marriage.

BTW, it is easier to become a bishop than a full time Seminary/Institute teacher, as you cannot be divorced and hold that job!

[Hemidakota]

Correct...

[rayhale]

I have a question about divorce and being a Bishop, or any higher Church position. What if the divorce is out of your hands, for example, your wife divorces you, cheated on you, or has left you? Are you still unable to be a Bishop, or an Apostle?

[bytor2112]

I have a question about divorce and being a Bishop, or any higher Church position. What if the divorce is out of your hands, for example, your wife divorces you, cheated on you, or has left you? Are you still unable to be a Bishop, or an Apostle?

Great question......I think you can be a Bishop after a divorce as long as you are remarried. You cannot be a Bishop if you were ever excommunicated though.....I think. I know a Branch President that has been divorced twice and excommunicated.....of course these things happened a very long time ago.

[Hemidakota]

Correct. You can still be a Bishop and a General Authority if you are obedience.

[havejoy]

It is what my former stake president told me when he interviewed me as a potential bishop candidate. I would say it is one of Pres Packer's "unwritten rules" that ensures we don't call someone a bishop who does not show strength in his marriage.

BTW, it is easier to become a bishop than a full time Seminary/Institute teacher, as you cannot be divorced and hold that job!

Are you sure? The reason I ask is because I was asked to be the Seminary teacher for our tri-ward area last year and I've been divorced and remarried. I turned it down because I was going to be out of town for at least 4 months during the school year.

[foreverafter]

It would be pretty hard to take an Apostle seriously if he himself did not live by Christ's law of marriage that teaches to never break your sacred temple covenants. I believe Apostles are expected to be examples to the Church of what the Lord's standard is today in respect to marriage & faithfulness & the vow of Unconditinal True Love that is required no matter what your spouse does. The divorces in the 1800's don't apply because with plural marriage if a wife seeks a divorce the husband still doesn't break his covenants being married to someone else IF he was righteous & truely loved & served the wife who left.

Nowdays though, men & woman do break their sacred covenants when they date or remarry after divorce & their sealing is automatically voided to their former living spouse (even if not done officially yet) since they have proved unfaithful to their former spouse by dating or remarriage to someone else. A divorce for physical safety reasons does not break your covenants as long as you don't date or remarry & you stay faithful to & love & serve your spouse from a safe distance until they repent & become safe to return to.

The penalty for the very grievious sin & abomination of Divorce, which is usually severe spouse & child abuse & adultery in most cases & one of the worst sins a person can commit the Prophets say, is still usually excommunication for one or both spouses, except for rare justifed cases, though it is often not done at the time of divorce because most people rarely confess or accept their guilt in the divorce & instead feel & declare they are justified & righteous, but someday those excommunications will be done when the truth about the cause of the divorce is known in the next life.

If a faithful spouse is forced into divorce then they probably are innocent & do not commit abuse or adultery or sin, though they are still encouraged to not break their covenants by going out & dating & remarrying, but are encouraged to never give up on their spouse & to wait for their spouse to repent, for they are still considered married to them & their spouse is just out committing adultery by dating or remarriage but someday their spouse must return & repent.

Divorce is one of the blackest of sins & far more serious to commit then most members have come to believe & accept. I can see why the Church does not want it's Leaders on any level to set the wrong example that breaking sacred covenants is ok or do something that in most cases is one of the worst of sins.

Edited May 10, 2009 by foreverafter

[Snow]

Most definitely not true. Divorce disqualifies a Priesthood holder from even being a Bishop, let alone a General Authority.

applepansy

Not true.

Brigham Young, who you might recognize as a General Authority, was a divorcee.

[bytor2112]

I believe Apostles are expected to be examples to the Church of what the Lord's standard is today in respect to marriage & faithfulness & the vow of Unconditinal True Love that is required no matter what your spouse does.

Source? Please don't use your standard......Prophet's say.

The divorces in the 1800's don't apply because with plural marriage if a wife seeks a divorce the husband still doesn't break his covenants being married to someone else.

That's convenient and ridiculous. So, the alleged standards that you site don't apply if you are involved in plural marriage??

Nowdays though, a man or woman do break their sacred covenants, when they date or remarry after divorce & their sealing is automatically voided to their former living spouse (even if not done officially yet) since they have proved unfaithful to their former spouse by dating or remarriage to someone else.

This is not church doctrine. You are misleading any and all who might think it is doctrine, because it is not.

A divorce for physical safety reasons does not break your covenants as long as you don't date or remarry & you stay faithful to & love & serve your spouse from a safe distance until they repent & become safe to return to.

Again, completely not true.

The penalty for the very grievious sin & abomination of Divorce, which is usually severe spouse & child abuse & adultery in most cases & one of the worst sins a person can commit the Prophets say, is still usually excommunication for one or both spouses, except for rare justifed cases, though it is often not done at the time of divorce because most people rarely confess or accept their guilt in the divorce & instead declare their righteousness, but someday those excommunications will be done when the truth about the cause of the divorce is known.

Excommunication MAY be required for grievous sin and it may not. You seem to enjoy stating that most people don't confess their guilt IF they commit adultery and get divorced for it, how about siting the source to prove this allegation.

Members of the church sometimes divorce and it is not always because they have been unfaithful. Sometimes things don't work out and though it is sad, they divorce and guess what....they can date and remarry and still have all of the same blessings promised to them, providing they keep their sacred covenants. You are just flat wrong about this and yet you continue to post this after I and others have posted comments by Apostles (Elder Oaks and Elder McConkie) addressing thee very issues......of course your response was that they were wrong and You are right......so I am probably wasting my time.

If a righteous spouse is forced into divorce then they probably are innocent & do not commit abuse or adultery or sin, though they are still encouraged to not break their covenants by going out & dating & remarrying, but are encouraged to never give up on their spouse & to wait for their spouse to repent, for they are still considered married to them & their spouse is just out committing adultery by dating or remarriage but someday their spouse must return & repent.

Sources???? You are accusing divorced members of the church of committing adultery if they date or remarry????? You know, there maybe members on this site who have divorced and remarried.....probably in your own Ward or Stake, and what you suggest is so off-base.

[Just_A_Guy]

Are you sure? The reason I ask is because I was asked to be the Seminary teacher for our tri-ward area last year and I've been divorced and remarried. I turned it down because I was going to be out of town for at least 4 months during the school year.

I think it refers to full-time CES employees (mostly in Utah and Idaho); not to part-time seminary teachers.

[Snow]

No they can't. Its in the handbook. I don't know if divorced men can be branch presidents though.

applepansy

I'm going to have to call you on that. You just made it up - didn't you?