Gospel/Church question

[ttoth2k]

My husband has recently been doing some research into the history of the church and may decide to go inactive. I don't want to go into detail, but all of it has to do with things that just kind of make you wonder. I believe everything he's said he's found, I've done a little research myself. But I also believe in all the things that I was taught in the church growing up. Being a family forever and that we have a Heavenly Mother are the first that come to mind. I want to believe the gospel is true, but because of the actions of the church and church members, I'm not sure how. So my question is, can you have a testimony of the "gospel" while still believing that the "church" may not be all it's cracked up to be? Can you really separate the actions of the church and the church leaders from the gospel? And how do you do that? Does that even make sense?

[Dr T]

Welcome to this site and interesting questions. What do u think?

[bmy-]

My husband has recently been doing some research into the history of the church and may decide to go inactive. I don't want to go into detail, but all of it has to do with things that just kind of make you wonder. I believe everything he's said he's found, I've done a little research myself. But I also believe in all the things that I was taught in the church growing up. Being a family forever and that we have a Heavenly Mother are the first that come to mind. I want to believe the gospel is true, but because of the actions of the church and church members, I'm not sure how. So my question is, can you have a testimony of the "gospel" while still believing that the "church" may not be all it's cracked up to be? Can you really separate the actions of the church and the church leaders from the gospel? And how do you do that? Does that even make sense?

First off.. realize that no organization on this planet is perfect. Humans by nature are imperfect creatures. Once you really grasp that.. you can see some of the shortcomings of the individuals in the Church as.. well.. human.

If you don't mind.. could you post a few specific examples of you/your husbands notable issues? It seems that far to often.. perception is the culprit.. and not the facts.

I'd love to help. If you're not comfortable talking about the issues in this thread.. feel free to PM me. FWIW I was not LDS last spring and before I joined I went through what I assume are alot of the same topics.

[Guest tomk]

2 Nephi 9:42

And whoso knocketh, to him will he open; and the wise, and the learned, and they that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning, and their wisdom, and their riches—yea, they are they whom he despiseth; and save they shall cast these things away, and consider themselves fools before God, and come down in the depths of humility, he will not open unto them.

[ttoth2k]

To answer the first question about what I think: I want to believe the gospel is true and sometimes I think that it's possible to separate the gospel from the church, but then...then I wonder how can or why would God restore a perfect teaching to people that are so imperfect, but then I remind myself that no one is perfect and I just kind of keep going back and forth. with it.

As far as exactly what the issues are, I only have a glimpse of all the things that have come up for dh. Some of them are the kinderhook plates, today he mentioned that throughout the BoM they talk about "church" when that's not even mentioned in the Bible once, some of Joseph's wives being so young and many already married, graduates from church institutions having their degrees revoked because of a change in their beliefs, the church building a mall in downtown Salt Lake (among other financial decisions)...that's just a few of the things he's brought up but it should give you an idea. Most of this is stuff that I already had an idea of, but now that's it's come to the surface, I kind of have to deal with it.

[Jenamarie]

Remember that Jesus Christ was the only person to walk this Earth without sinning or making mistakes. No one else, not even His Chosen Apostles and Prophets, have been able to come anywhere near His Perfect Example. If Christ could only use perfect people to do His work here on Earth, then none of his work would be done.

[Palerider]

Answers About Mormons and Mormon Belief (LDS FAQ - Latter-day Saints)

read this web site....alot of info there

[Palerider]

this one is good to....

LDS FAIR Apologetics Homepage

[Guest ceeboo]

Hello ttoth2k, :)

To be transparent with you, I am not LDS so I wiill make this short.

We are all ( like you and your husband ) on our own and unique journeys with the Lord.

I would strongly encourage you to continue living a Christ centered life and I am confident all will fall in place. IMHO, as much as we take credit for it, someone much higher is diving our course.:)

As far as the " history " of the LDS Church, please understand that all of us " Christain " Religions have some " unpleasant " human history.

Be still and know who is in charge.:)

God bless,

Ceeboo

[Palerider]

We get someone coming to this site often asking the kind of questions you posted. Perhaps its time to humble yourself and get on your knees and ask the Lord what you should do. Prayer is tough at first to start...once you get in the habit then its easy.....Ask the Lord what you should do. He truly loves everyone.

[Dr T]

To answer the first question about what I think: I want to believe the gospel is true and sometimes I think that it's possible to separate the gospel from the church, but then...then I wonder how can or why would God restore a perfect teaching to people that are so imperfect, but then I remind myself that no one is perfect and I just kind of keep going back and forth. with it.

As far as exactly what the issues are, I only have a glimpse of all the things that have come up for dh. Some of them are the kinderhook plates, today he mentioned that throughout the BoM they talk about "church" when that's not even mentioned in the Bible once, some of Joseph's wives being so young and many already married, graduates from church institutions having their degrees revoked because of a change in their beliefs, the church building a mall in downtown Salt Lake (among other financial decisions)...that's just a few of the things he's brought up but it should give you an idea. Most of this is stuff that I already had an idea of, but now that's it's come to the surface, I kind of have to deal with it.

good question again. :)

[georgia2]

It is absolutely necessary to have a testimoney IN SPITE of the members! If I based my testimoney on the members, how I was treated, I'd have been gone a long time ago! The reason I;m still there? THE CHURCH IS TRUE !

each of us has our "issues" temptations, weak points, tht we are striving to improve on. This is the whole purpose of our mortal probation. Can we make it though this mine field and STILL stay strong in the gospel??? That IS the question!

If you aren't being spiritually fed at church, if people aren't living what they are preachin, YOU need to strengthen yourself by not only reaidng scruptures, but also other gospel books by general authorities. satan is the one behind the things that are making yo feel this way. don't let him win your soul!

[BenRaines]

Should we hold David, the prophet, to the same standard? How about Saul? I am sure if I went back over my Old Testament I could find a few others. How about Peter, walked and talked and lived with the Savior but denied him three times to avoid what he thought was persecution.

Imperfect beings we humans are.

My opinion is this: If we want to find a reason to stop believing or attending church you can find it in every denomination out there. "Seek and ye shall find" did not only refer to the truth, also has to do with the excuse.

Ben Raines

[ttoth2k]

We get someone coming to this site often asking the kind of questions you posted. Perhaps its time to humble yourself and get on your knees and ask the Lord what you should do. Prayer is tough at first to start...once you get in the habit then its easy.....Ask the Lord what you should do. He truly loves everyone.

We pray as a family regularly and I say my personal prayers, although that's not regularly and sometimes not even often.

I guess I was just wondering if there were anyone else out there that felt the same way I do.

[Guest HEthePrimate]

Yes, I believe you can have a testimony of the Gospel while recognizing that the Church, its leaders, and its members are not perfect. Remember that the Church is comprised of human beings, and all human beings make mistakes. People can be very nice and caring, or they can be thoughtless and even mean. Just because the members and leaders of the Church do not always live up to Gospel ideals doesn't mean the Gospel isn't true.

I've had my share of problems, but I stick with the Church because I believe the Gospel and love the people. Despite their quirks, the Church does provide a nice community.

A good friend of mine likens the Church to a spiritual hospital. People come to church not because they are spiritually healthy, but for just the opposite reason--they are spiritually sick, and need help. Ideally, at church we band together, support each other, love each other, and try to help each other get healthier. Sometimes a "doctor" (church leader) screws up a procedure and hurts somebody, but hopefully they'll go back and fix the problem. And sometimes even the doctors get sick and need to get better.

Hope this helps.

:) Peace,

DH

[Traveler]

My husband has recently been doing some research into the history of the church and may decide to go inactive. I don't want to go into detail, but all of it has to do with things that just kind of make you wonder. I believe everything he's said he's found, I've done a little research myself. But I also believe in all the things that I was taught in the church growing up. Being a family forever and that we have a Heavenly Mother are the first that come to mind. I want to believe the gospel is true, but because of the actions of the church and church members, I'm not sure how. So my question is, can you have a testimony of the "gospel" while still believing that the "church" may not be all it's cracked up to be? Can you really separate the actions of the church and the church leaders from the gospel? And how do you do that? Does that even make sense?

One of the problems with what many call research is the biased source of their information. In reality all information is biased. If one takes the same critical look into those that provide what is called "questionable" information about church leaders one will find much more "questionable" information about them. Take for example Ed Decker and his organization. This is where the movie "The G-d Makers" comes from. Ed's private and family life is hardly the example of a Christ centered person.

I have found that in most cases those that criticize the LDS leaders are less able to survive the same scrutiny they say is necessary of those they criticize. To me it appears to be the strain at a gnat and swallow a camel syndrome of the Pharisees is rampant among the critics of the LDS leaders.

If LDS leaders are to be questioned because of their character flaws – should not those that disperse doubt based on flaws of character be just at questioned for their contribution based on their flaws?

This is not just a problem of those that criticize the LDS. This appears to exist in most religious, social, political and other relationships where someone is fixed on criticizing another.

The Traveler

[tubaloth]

I don't want to go into detail, but all of it has to do with things that just kind of make you wonder.

I’m guessing not in a good way. Because there are a lot of things in Church history that make me wonder in amazement.

I want to believe the gospel is true, but because of the actions of the church and church members, I'm not sure how.

So you are basing your testimony on the action of church members? That’s not really how a testimony is built? Its about knowing the truth and the spirit baring witness. That should be the main part of your equation.

So my question is, can you have a testimony of the "gospel" while still believing that the "church" may not be all it's cracked up to be?

The church is either truth or it isn’t. Either Joseph Smith actually did see Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ or he didn’t. Joseph Smith either restored the priesthood to the earth (and brought revelation back) or he didn’t. (or it was never lost in the first place).

Either Joseph Smith got Golden Plates and translated them or he didn’t.

Either Joseph Smith was killed for what he believed in, or was the biggest fool on the planet.

Once this testimony is in place you then realize everybody has their own agency can do whatever they want! Some have a stronger testimony then others and usually it shows. It’s a matter of what you are trying to base your testimony in? Is it in Joseph Smith and the Book of mormon, or it is actions of members?

Some of them are the kinderhook plates, today he mentioned that throughout the BoM they talk about "church" when that's not even mentioned in the Bible once

So there is a struggle with if the book of mormon is true! I have a great idea! Read it! Follow it. See if you feel the spirit!

The Book of Mormon as a translation from some Nephite language into 1820 language. I dare to bet if you “translated” the bible into 1820 language the use of the word church would show up. Meaning you are trying to compare apples and oranges. Almost seems like you are TRYING to find holes in what you believe.

some of Joseph's wives being so young and many already married,

If you THINK you understand Polygamy completely then go a head and trying to explain it to the rest of us. If you DON’T understand it, then why blame others when you don’t have all the info, or understanding.

graduates from church institutions having their degrees revoked because of a change in their beliefs

Its call the temple Recommend interview.

the church building a mall in downtown Salt Lake (among other financial decisions)...

You do realize this doesn’t use tithing. Pres Gordon B Hinckley explained this all when the idea was made. The Church owns some 90% percent of the land in Salt Lake City (its probably not that high Im just guessing). One of the biggest missionaries tools in the church is temple square. The way things were going in Salt Lake city is nobody wanted to bring new development in to Downtown. The church having enough outside resources then tithing, used that money to develop Downtown.

Yes the church is spending a lot of money. But within a couple of years of once the development is completely the church well have made all their money back (assuming people want to use the new downtown) and then make a profit on it. Even then, usually the church ends up selling off the management to those properties and ends up making a profit again.

If you are more worried about that, then yes you are finding every little thing to keep you from going to church.

Study the book of mormon. Read the Joseph Smith Manual that we are studying this year. Read the first vision. PRAY!

This is how you a testimony comes!

[bytor2112]

Church history can be very confusing when you first start to dig into the past. Suddenly, you discover there is more to the story.....where else in life isn't that true? I spent a great deal of time reading church history.....mostly from the wrong sources. I would recommend that if you continue down this road, choose wisely the sources you use for research. I recently read a very good book titled, Rough Stone Rolling, by Richard Bushman. It addresses many of the alleged problems with JS history. You might also try fairlds.org, this is a pretty good source.

But, like the other posters have said, I think the best way, the only way to know for sure......is by faith. Read, ponder and pray......the Holy Spirit will provide the confirmation you seek.

[KristofferUmfrey]

It is absolutely necessary to have a testimoney IN SPITE of the members! If I based my testimoney on the members, how I was treated, I'd have been gone a long time ago! The reason I;m still there? THE CHURCH IS TRUE !

each of us has our "issues" temptations, weak points, tht we are striving to improve on. This is the whole purpose of our mortal probation. Can we make it though this mine field and STILL stay strong in the gospel??? That IS the question!

If you aren't being spiritually fed at church, if people aren't living what they are preachin, YOU need to strengthen yourself by not only reaidng scruptures, but also other gospel books by general authorities. satan is the one behind the things that are making yo feel this way. don't let him win your soul!

I'm the opposite... if I decided on whether to return on my personal experiences with the members, I'd be back in a heartbeat.

[bytor2112]

So my question is, can you have a testimony of the "gospel" while still believing that the "church" may not be all it's cracked up to be? Can you really separate the actions of the church and the church leaders from the gospel? And how do you do that? Does that even make sense?

That brings up a good question. How many struggle with church history and yet remain in church becasue they are afraid to leave. Afraid that if they do, there families might not be together forever? How many stay just because they find the church to be a pleasant experience? How many don't have a testimony of JS, but say they do? How will they be judged over their internal struggles with believing in every thing the church teaches or even JS?

Edited January 24, 2009 by bytor2112

[Guest ceeboo]

That brings up a good question. How many struggle with church history and yet remain in church becasue they are afraid to leave. Afraid that if they do, there families might not be together forever? How many stay just because they find the church to be a pleasant experience? How many don't have a testimony of JS, but say they do? How will they be judged over their internal struggles with believing in every thing the church teaches or even JS?

Hello bytor :)

Very interesting thoughts ( IMHO ).

I have thought much of the same for my Religion as well. ( I guess this would apply to all religions ):):)

Peace,

Ceeboo

[Palerider]

I love Church History and I visit the sites as often as I can....I will be going back to Nauvoo in a few weeks. I read everything I can about the history of the church. I have no issues with it...My testimony today is as strong as it was if not stronger the day I came home from my Mission.

[Islander]

People become inactive because of their own internal struggles. Admitting such weaknesses does not come easy so it must be that rationalization comes into place. Sound and solid testimony of the Gospel can not rest on the niceties of the social intercourse on Sundays or the safety of the community. If Christ and revelation are not the rock of the foundation of such testimony, any tid bit of historical minutia will blow you away.

God does not change, truth is impervious to the lives of men and what we believe has no bearing on either. WE are the ones that must seek truth and insight into the nature and character of God from HIM, not from man.

[cjmaldrich]

I started researching church history a few months ago because I had been exposed to all kinds of crazy claims against the church before and after being baptized 5 years ago. Once that seed of doubt is planted, you will question and question until you can believe the truth.

For your husband, he needs to research the history of the church with the right spirit. Particularly the spirit of understanding. He needs to understand that the church itself isn't perfect. I have come across a few things where the best I can come up with to explain something is that in the 1840's the church was still pretty young and the full fullness of the Gospel had yet to be revealed. Therefore, the people running the show were also young in their knowledge. The early leaders were men who had come from other churches with their own beliefs and what not and were suddenly thrust into leadership. I'm not surprised that they stumbled, misinterpreted revelation, were excommunicated, disfellowshipped at the drop of a hat, or even made "prophecies" that turned out to be wrong.

Also, he needs to get the whole picture and look at it as just history. He's trying to pass judgment on something that we can't possibly have all the facts of. I am left to assume that because he allowed his testimony to be damaged, he hasn't been getting the whole story...

Example: Just to go with something that's already been said, Joseph Smith had a ton of wives; some of whom were pretty young. Makes Joseph sound like a pedophile heathen, huh? But what if you keep researching and find that there were only one or two who were that young? What if you keep researching and find that girls were getting married much much younger in 1845 than we consider to be appropriate in 2009? What if you keep researching and stumble upon evidence that shows that he really didn't want to practice polygamy, and neither did another famed polygamist, Brigham Young? What if you keep researching and figure out that Joseph Smith did not approve of or support polygamy for just anyone who wanted a few more women around the house? And what if you look at the life of the prophet and see just how strongly he loved Emma and how well he treated her through the whole ordeal? ... All of those extra facts don't make Joseph Smith sound anywhere close to the monster that Anti's make him out to be...

"Judge ye not unrighteously lest ye be judged with that same judgment"

P.S. Even if Joseph Smith really was a pervert and just wanted a group of sex slaves, does that change the fact that the Book of Mormon is true? Does it change the fact that he was a prophet of God? Does it make the church untrue? I ask what other have already: What is your testimony based on?

[Palerider]

We get hung up on the history...no one ever mentions the people who died innocently....the murders in cold blood, the mobs, the tar and feathered acts, rapes, killing of small children,and all the arson that took place and a Gov't that turned its back on a group of people.

But, we get racked over the coals for everything else....