Were Adam and Eve born?

[Webster]

Well, Cain and Abel were not Heavenly Father's offspring. They were Adam and Eve's offspring. And, Adam was not born "flesh" in the sense of having blood. He was born immortal, without blood. His body "died" and developed blood by the Fall.

My point was that if Adam is God's son physically, then Cain, Abel, and everybody else can trace their physical lineage back to God the Father. I'm not saying that's good or bad; it's just the result of that logic. Personally, I have no problem with it.

[Dr T]

With the thought that there has never been a chicken (caused)without a creator (causer) I'd say u r correct. There must be something to create it since we know chickens exist. Then following that with the idea that God can make chickens, and trees, and PEOPLE and they continue to create like beings. K, so we understand that now what is the problem with seeing a chicken and a tree, etc. being made by God and then those thing continuing in the same way? God did not make the first chicken as a chicken himself or a pine tree as a pine tree just as I see God created man as he did and the humans continue to produce their own kind. Just as I see the chicken and tree, I see man in the same way. God does not have to have a female god to create man as this thread has touched on. Just like a chicken, just a tree so is man IMO.

[Webster]

Where does it say Adam was offspring? Show me!

As I said previously in comment #36:

I take some of the Genesis account as figurative as I believe the temple may allude to.

While we're using scripture to suggest Adam's parentage or not, what about the following?

Luke 3:38

Which was [the son] of Enos, which was [the son] of Seth, which was [the son] of Adam, which was [the son] of God.

Moses 6:22 (also in JST)

And this is the genealogy of the sons of Adam, who was the son of God, with whom God, himself, conversed.

[Webster]

. . . God does not have to have a female god to create man as this thread has touched on. Just like a chicken, just a tree so is man IMO.

If God does not need a female God to create offspring, then why do we have a female God?

Also, I believe we could say that God knows where to find resurrected, perfected chickens and trees from which to produce immortal chicks and seeds.

Actually, I have no problem with either theory, but I prefer the idea that all life on our earth sprang from other life.

[Dr T]

Good point. "Why do we have a female God?" you asked. I am not LDS and I do not believe there are female gods.

[Webster]

Dare I even ask the question that just popped into my head? I'm just fool enough to do it:

Does God give birth to human spirits or does He create them some other way?

Why were we created in His image? Is mankind the perfected form of life to create or do we naturally look like our parent?

If God gave birth to human spirits, did God give "birth" to chicken spirits of did He form them in a laboratory?

Or did He get them from perfected, immortal chickens who were fulfilling the measure of their creation?

Just imagine all the possibilities. He is God after all! I sometimes wonder if we are like mosquito larae in a scummy pond, trying to image what life in a penthouse is like.

[Webster]

Good point. "Why do we have a female God?" you asked. I am not LDS and I do not believe there are female gods.

How did he create male and female in his own image? (Gen. 1:27 I realize I am assuming that "man" [i.e., human] is made up of both "male and female", but that's my particular reading of that verse.)

[Dr T]

There has been speculation about what was exactly meant there.

[bytor2112]

Good point. "Why do we have a female God?" you asked. I am not LDS and I do not believe there are female gods.

a very interesting hymn to ponder......

1. O my Father, thou that dwellest

In the high and glorious place,

When shall I regain thy presence

And again behold thy face?

In thy holy habitation,

Did my spirit once reside?

In my first primeval childhood

Was I nurtured near thy side?

2. For a wise and glorious purpose

Thou hast placed me here on earth

And withheld the recollection

Of my former friends and birth;

Yet ofttimes a secret something

Whispered, “You’re a stranger here,”

And I felt that I had wandered

From a more exalted sphere.

3. I had learned to call thee Father,

Thru thy Spirit from on high,

But, until the key of knowledge

Was restored, I knew not why.

In the heav’ns are parents single?

No, the thought makes reason stare!

Truth is reason; truth eternal

Tells me I’ve a mother there.

4. When I leave this frail existence,

When I lay this mortal by,

Father, Mother, may I meet you

In your royal courts on high?

Then, at length, when I’ve completed

All you sent me forth to do,

With your mutual approbation

Let me come and dwell with you.

Edited February 1, 2009 by bytor2112

[Dr T]

Thanks for that hymn bytor but I'd guess it is a LDS hymn so it's consistent with tha belief

[bytor2112]

obviously the Lord first made things spiritually, then made Adam & Eves physical bodies (first immortal which then became mortal) the way he did, and gave those elements power to pro-create and multiply the way bodies do.

5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air;

6 But I, the Lord God, spake, and there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

7 And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word.

[trulykiwi]

We evolved from great apes with the aid of bacterial evolution. God didn't just sprinkle some seeds, just to use your analogy.

You did, not me. Would you like a banana?

[trulykiwi]

Dare I even ask the question that just popped into my head? I'm just fool enough to do it:

Does God give birth to human spirits or does He create them some other way?

Why were we created in His image? Is mankind the perfected form of life to create or do we naturally look like our parent?

If God gave birth to human spirits, did God give "birth" to chicken spirits of did He form them in a laboratory?

Or did He get them from perfected, immortal chickens who were fulfilling the measure of their creation?

Just imagine all the possibilities. He is God after all! I sometimes wonder if we are like mosquito larae in a scummy pond, trying to image what life in a penthouse is like.

All of this will go nowhere. If it is not revealed we should not talk or argue. Heavenly Father doesn't talk about Mother, what gives us the right to mention her in such a way that others can take the sacredness that don't understand. I will be saved on the revealed truths already if I am faithful, anything else revealed about these things will come, and be a bonus from the correct line of authority.

[trulykiwi]

5

7 And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word.

But that just says everything was created spiritually first, nothing else!

[bytor2112]

But that just says everything was created spiritually first, nothing else!

:huh: .......scriptures, supporting your statement. :)

[Webster]

If it is not revealed we should not talk . . . .

You skipped comment #103 where I answered a challenge of yours with 2 scriptures.

Arguing is one thing, but shouldn't we be open to all truth, even if it seems contradictory? I like to hear all sides because it gives me more to think about. Many of the early saints had trouble with things Joseph told them because they couldn't consider something that seemed at odds with truths they already possessed.

I imagine that many of my favorite ideas, and probably quite a few of yours as well, will not quite measure up to the full truth that God has yet to reveal. If we arrive in heaven and find out that Adam is not his son as some scriptures say, or that Adam was not literally formed from dust as others say, should we lose faith and apostatize?

[georgia2]

I read your first post a a few of the others. If I missed out on this response, sorry. It is going on page 12 now and I can't read all of the comments.

Adam and Eve were born of heavenly parents. Their SPIRITS were born. Just like ours. Jesus Christ is the ONLY physical son of God, born physically here with an earthly mother. God does not go against natural laws. Natural laws say that there has to be a man and a woman to procreate.

Our physical bodies are made up of earthly particles. When we die our bodies decay and return to earthly particles. These same earthly particles are the elements God used to create the first spiritual man to be clothed in flesh. If this was not so, why would the story of the creation be told over and over and over to all of God's people through all dispensations. Why is the story of creation so important? Also, remember that not every word that comes out a prophets mouth is prophecy. When speaking with and through the holy Ghost, is the time that truth is being explained. All prophets are and were men. The only perfect man was Jesus Christ himself.

[georgia2]

As I said previously in comment #36:

I take some of the Genesis account as figurative as I believe the temple may allude to.

While we're using scripture to suggest Adam's parentage or not, what about the following?

Luke 3:38

Which was [the son] of Enos, which was [the son] of Seth, which was [the son] of Adam, which was [the son] of God.

Moses 6:22 (also in JST)

And this is the genealogy of the sons of Adam, who was the son of God, with whom God, himself, conversed.

It states that Adam is the son of God because it was God that gave him life. That doesn't mean that he was his physical daddy.

[trulykiwi]

You skipped comment #103 where I answered a challenge of yours with 2 scriptures.

Arguing is one thing, but shouldn't we be open to all truth, even if it seems contradictory? I like to hear all sides because it gives me more to think about. Many of the early saints had trouble with things Joseph told them because they couldn't consider something that seemed at odds with truths they already possessed.

I imagine that many of my favorite ideas, and probably quite a few of yours as well, will not quite measure up to the full truth that God has yet to reveal. If we arrive in heaven and find out that Adam is not his son as some scriptures say, or that Adam was not literally formed from dust as others say, should we lose faith and apostatize?

Well it has been revealed that Adam was literally formed from the dust and Eve from his rib, it would be more likely that anything above and beyond that could cause err and make someone end up becoming apostate !

Edited February 1, 2009 by trulykiwi

[trulykiwi]

It states that Adam is the son of God because it was God that gave him life. That doesn't mean that he was his physical daddy.

I wasn't going to comment on this cos I agree and I feel georgia has said it.

We are all sons (and daughters) of God as was Adam. Like Adam we are literal sons of god, but Christ is the only one born of Heavenly Father physically, not Adam, not any of us but the King only. In the gospel sense we are sons Of Christ and that could be said as a similtude of the Father saying Adam is the son of God.

[trulykiwi]

You skipped comment #103 where I answered a challenge of yours with 2 scriptures.

Thats because georgia said it for me. The scriptures you quoted don't prove Adam was a begotten son in the flesh. Look at last posts for answers.

Peace!

[Webster]

Our physical bodies are made up of earthly particles.

Things were first created spiritually; the Father actually begat the spirits, and they were brought forth and lived with Him. Then He commenced the work of creating earthly tabernacles, precisely as He had been created in this flesh himself, by partaking of the course material that was organized and composed this earth, until His system was charged with it, consequently the tabernacles of His children were organized from the coarse materials of this earth.

--- Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v.4: p.218

You'll explain this away however you want, but it looks like Brother Brigham may be saying something like you said. One way to paraphrase the above is this: God created earthly tabernacles (physical bodies of 'earthly particles') in the same way His flesh was originally created. How? He partook of (we could say ate) the coarse material of this earth until it infused His body. (You're already rejecting this aren't you?)

When it says, "consequently the tabernacles of His children were organized from the coarse materials of this earth," I have to wonder why God would partake of earthly matter, until His system was "charged" with it, and then it sounds like Brigham says that as a result the bodies of his children were composed of the coarse material of this earth (i.e., your earthly particles).

I'm not saying that what I've been advocating as a possiblity is THE way it was. I'm saying it's possible. I don't KNOW which is correct, and I'm not going to hold too tightly to any one view, and I also don't think I should condemn possiblities.

[Webster]

Something else to consider: I think that God calls Abraham's son Isaac his only son three times in Genesis 22 (where Isaac is almost sacrificed), but really, Abraham had another son earlier named Ishmael. Hmm. Another son born first, who was not as favored as Isaac, and Isaac the "only" son was sacrificed. Hmm. Maybe we don't know what "only" means.

Possibilities.

[trulykiwi]

Things were first created spiritually; the Father actually begat the spirits, and they were brought forth and lived with Him. Then He commenced the work of creating earthly tabernacles, precisely as He had been created in this flesh himself, by partaking of the course material that was organized and composed this earth, until His system was charged with it, consequently the tabernacles of His children were organized from the coarse materials of this earth.

--- Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v.4: p.218

But it does not say Adam was begotten in the flesh of the Father. We all know ONLY Christ was. I stand by that! You have made it too technical for people to understand and it isn't even considered truth, and I will probably move onto a more edifying thread. I have enjoyed it. Bye everyone.

Peace!

[KoalaBear]

You did, not me. Would you like a banana?

Would you care to attempt to prove me wrong? Oh wait, you can't.