Were Adam and Eve born?

[Guest tomk]

Jesus was the Only Begotten where Father was the father and a mortal woman was the mother. Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother were the parents of Jesus' spirit body.

What ( I think ) really set Jesus apart as the "Only Begotten" -- was his mixed parentage -- the fact that, due to having a mortal mother, He could die, but due to His having an Immortal Father, He could keep death at bay indefinitely.

In other words, I do not feel that Adam and Eve being both the spirit and physical children of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother does anything to take away from or change Jesus' status as the ONLY BEGOTTEN of the Father. Jesus is the only person ever to be begotten in that manner. Adam was not begotten that way. So Adam would not infringe upon Jesus' "Only Begotten" status, because Adam was not conceived in the same manner as Jesus was. Jesus was and is unique in that.

[Traveler]

Adam was the first man on earth therefor was started in a different way. I think we can say it is Gods perogitive to do as he wills, not ours to decide how something was done or is done.You see that is why we have a Prophet to direct Gods affairs on earth through revelation, so we don't error. But man can make his own interpretations of things up and thats where people can error because they make it more complicated than it actually is. So in saying that, why can't it be simple that because God is such a dab-hand at creating, could he not do it anyway he wishes!

I have been away for a while. Sorry my response has not come sooner but the very idea that G-d is such a dab-hand at creating, could he not do it anyway he wishes!" is not according to my understanding of G-d.

I believe that one of the reasons that we call G-d "Perfect" is because he approaches all things and does them in the best absolutely correct way. His works are not whims, guesses or experiments. He has no reason to change the way or manner of how he does things because there is no way possible to improve what he does or how he does it.

I believe that I am on very solid ground in believing G-d knows the very best possible way to do things and does exactly that from the very beginning. I cannot think of any reason for G-d to need to ever change his method of creating. His wish is to do it right – always – every time. I believe that I was created by the same G-d in the same manner as Adam.

I invite all to learn of a G-d that does not have to change the truth of him to suit a scientist or a priest.

The Traveler

[trulykiwi]

Would you care to attempt to prove me wrong? Oh wait, you can't.

Oh and you can prove me wrong?

[trulykiwi]

Jesus was the Only Begotten where Father was the father and a mortal woman was the mother. Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother were the parents of Jesus' spirit body.

What ( I think ) really set Jesus apart as the "Only Begotten" -- was his mixed parentage -- the fact that, due to having a mortal mother, He could die, but due to His having an Immortal Father, He could keep death at bay indefinitely.

In other words, I do not feel that Adam and Eve being both the spirit and physical children of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother does anything to take away from or change Jesus' status as the ONLY BEGOTTEN of the Father. Jesus is the only person ever to be begotten in that manner. Adam was not begotten that way. So Adam would not infringe upon Jesus' "Only Begotten" status, because Adam was not conceived in the same manner as Jesus was. Jesus was and is unique in that.

1. Jesus was a GOD because he had a God as his literal Father, and was human because of his earthly Mother.

2. Adam and Eve would have been GODS had they have been begotten by immortal parents. They were not Gods!

3. It says Adam was formed from the elements of THIS earth. If he had have been formed from Heavenly Mother he would have been formed from other worlds or means. But it says formed of THIS earth. When the Lord created this world he saw a place to do so, and brought together the materials and elements that were unorganized. Adam was also formed of these.

Cmon guys I am wondering if a)you are not LDS, b) this is a joke to pull ones strings, or c) you guys are trusting in mans doctrine and need to seriously talk to your Stake President ha ha!!!!

[sensibility]

For those who think that Adam and Eve were born, what was Jesus' role in the process? It's quite explicit in the temple and the scriptures that Jesus was involved in the organization of Adam and Eve's bodies.

"And I, God, said unto mine Only Begotten, which was with me from the beginning: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and it was so."

[Webster]

You ask for scriptures, I give them to you, you deny their literal meaning. Your favorite verses are literal, others' are not.

I present possibilities, but since you appear to have all knowledge you deny me access to your club.

Fine, Bruce R. McConkie, Joseph F. Smith (did you even read the original comment?), John A. Widstoe, Brigham Young, and I will go form our own club. Anyone who's open to possibilities can join. (This is figurative of course -- I hope you get that.) Our first meeting will be at the Stake President's house. Apparently the brethren named above have some 'splainin' to do.

Joseph Smith can be a club member too. He said, "Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way." --- Teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 373 (emphasis mine)

(Let me save you some time. You will no doubt deny the general principle stated above during the King Follett Discourse by saying that was found in the context of a statement about Jesus and His Father. Your club is too exclusive for me.)

Good thing 'Mormonism' lets people like me stay in. (It even promotes some of us heretics to the station of Apostle or Prophet -- see above names.)

Peace out.

[georgia2]

every one is entitled to believe in whatever they want. If you want to tear apart and twist words to imply things other than what we have been told by prophets, in the scriptures, and in the temple, you are free to do so. When you post a question to ask what others believe, you should hear what they say instead of challenge every post. the purpose of this forum is to teach each other the gospel and answer questions for those who as are less knowledgeable in the scriptures and true doctrine of JEsus Christ. It is not for challenging those who are steadfast in the doctrine of the true church. WE are to be a light unto the world, not a rain cloud trying to water down and change the truth.

[Webster]

I want to apologize.

The comments originally were, for the most part, interesting, and fun to see others' views about the idea of Adam and Eve being born. It hasn't been fun for the last several pages, and for that I apologize. I was trying to lighten up the discussion with some humor above, but my guess is that it will not be taken that way. Therefore, I am banning myself from this post from this point forward. I will check out the future comments from time to time, but I will refrain from commenting.

I will let all readers examine what has been written so far for themselves. I find many of the ideas interesting. I really don't know all the answers (and maybe some leaders in the past did not either), but I am interested in the possibilities.

[trulykiwi]

I want to apologize.

The comments originally were, for the most part, interesting, and fun to see others' views about the idea of Adam and Eve being born. It hasn't been fun for the last several pages, and for that I apologize. I was trying to lighten up the discussion with some humor above, but my guess is that it will not be taken that way. Therefore, I am banning myself from this post from this point forward. I will check out the future comments from time to time, but I will refrain from commenting.

I will let all readers examine what has been written so far for themselves. I find many of the ideas interesting. I really don't know all the answers (and maybe some leaders in the past did not either), but I am interested in the possibilities.

That is OK Webster, it's OK to ask questions. But it just got to the point where it was ones own doctrine opposed to the doctrine written plainly in the scriptures, and common sense too.

[Justice]

Where does it say Adam was offspring? Show me!

Is a son offspring?

I get the impression that showing scriptures won't matter much because you are already set in your beliefs.

Scripture has been misinterpreted and misunderstood for a very large part of our history. However, truths have been revealed to earth in the last days through prophets, and evidence of these truths still exist in the Bible.

My words will never convince you. You must seek the answer for yourself, be willing to give up what you believe when you learn truth, and pray for the spirit which is the only way to be convinced.

Here is the scripture you requested.

Luke 3:

38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

[winterstar]

Well, if you hold a Trinitarian view of the Godhead, my theory won't make much sense to you.

I am not suggesting that my theory is the official LDS position. It is just what I think happened.

If I were a god of flesh and bone, with a female companion, and it was time to populate the earth -- the obvious solution would be to create the bodies of Adam and Eve myself.

Also, I am not sure about there being just ONE pair of "Adam and Eve". I think there were many pairs created at the same time. Enough to provide for diversity in the gene pool. Otherwise you'd have brothers and sisters marrying each other and a real mess, genetically.

I think Adam and Eve were a TYPE.

I am not asking anyone to agree with me. I am just stating what makes the most sense to me as to how the human race got started.

I think again that brings God down to mans level. Peace!

jumping in late, but perhaps it doesn't bring God down to man's level, but instead gives an interesting concept to as man is, God once was and as God is, man may become.

[winterstar]

It would not be the only time God has condescended in order to bless mankind.

My theory makes total sense to me.

Yes, God could have made us from the "dust" of the earth. I have no doubt that He could do it that way.

But the "home grown" method seems more personal, more intimate, more like the God I have come to know.

Ultimately, God's condescension ends up exalting Him. That is the paradox.

oh, I just have to ask you:

what do you think about Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother coming to live on this planet and eat of it's food (dust) to be able to create physical bodies of flesh and bone for this planet? (because obviously, they created spirit bodies, and we came here to get mortal bodies.)

[Guest tomk]

1. Jesus was a GOD because he had a God as his literal Father, and was human because of his earthly Mother.

2. Adam and Eve would have been GODS had they have been begotten by immortal parents. They were not Gods!

3. It says Adam was formed from the elements of THIS earth. If he had have been formed from Heavenly Mother he would have been formed from other worlds or means. But it says formed of THIS earth. When the Lord created this world he saw a place to do so, and brought together the materials and elements that were unorganized. Adam was also formed of these.

Cmon guys I am wondering if a)you are not LDS, b) this is a joke to pull ones strings, or c) you guys are trusting in mans doctrine and need to seriously talk to your Stake President ha ha!!!!

Jesus attained His Godhood in the pre-existence before coming to earth. He received such a standing due to His obedience, not necessarily because His Father was a God.

Adam and Eve were not gods just because their parents were Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother, or because they were amortal. They were not immortal, but amortal. If they had been immortal, the forbidden fruit could not have changed them.

See Note 3 for this talk:

LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Atonement

3. They were created as amortal beings—“without mortality”—not at that time subject to death.

I assure you -- I am LDS, and this is no joke.

You can believe what you want.

[trulykiwi]

Jesus attained His Godhood in the pre-existence before coming to earth. He received such a standing due to His obedience, not necessarily because His Father was a God.

Adam and Eve were not gods just because their parents were Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother, or because they were amortal. They were not immortal, but amortal. If they had been immortal, the forbidden fruit could not have changed them.

Cmon dude that's enough this has already been proven wrong. Look back and you will see this is a false doctrine!(to those who are steadfast in the truth that is)

Edited February 2, 2009 by trulykiwi

[prospectmom]

OK I just read this thread and now have a headache :] All I can say is a lot of interesting points of view and scripture reference ... Not something I am really going to worry about... good read though.... continue the sparing if you must.

Edited February 2, 2009 by prospectmom
spelling errors , grammatical idoitcy (sp )

[Justice]

Cmon dude that's enough this has already been proven wrong. Look back and you will see this is a false doctrine!(to those who are steadfast in the truth that is)

So, trulykiwi... what did you think of the scripture I posted for you?

Edited February 2, 2009 by Justice

[KoalaBear]

Oh and you can prove me wrong?

Uh yeah. Scientific evidence in fact. Where is your proof of god? A couple millenia old story that no living person can prove ever happened? Your stories are more like Chinese whispers than fact.

[Traveler]

1. Jesus was a GOD because he had a God as his literal Father, and was human because of his earthly Mother.

2. Adam and Eve would have been GODS had they have been begotten by immortal parents. They were not Gods!

3. It says Adam was formed from the elements of THIS earth. If he had have been formed from Heavenly Mother he would have been formed from other worlds or means. But it says formed of THIS earth. When the Lord created this world he saw a place to do so, and brought together the materials and elements that were unorganized. Adam was also formed of these.

Cmon guys I am wondering if a)you are not LDS, b) this is a joke to pull ones strings, or c) you guys are trusting in mans doctrine and need to seriously talk to your Stake President ha ha!!!!

1. Jesus was G-d from the beginning - even before he was born. (John chapter 1.)

2. Adam and Eve lost their divine citizenship in the fall.

3. The scriptures speak of the creation of man; I am wondering what scriptures there are that speak of the creation of Adam aside from man. We are told in scriptures that Adam was placed in Eden (not created there). Eden was a place also known as the garden of G-d and was not part of the fallen world that is the earth as we now know it.

When Adam fell the earth was changed to a fallen state. The earth will suffer a death the same as man before being restored to a divine state in a type and shadow of man death and resurrection or restoration that will also follow the type and shadow of the death and resurrection of Christ.

Christ is the divine type and shadow and the example; therefore as man is G-d once was (meaning that is man is Jesus once condescended to live so that Jesus was known as the man Jesus of Nazareth) and as G-d is man may become (meaning that as Jesus was resurrected and become an heir of G-d man also will be resurrected and can become an heir of G-d). This is the intent for G-d’s creation of man and the completion or the wholeness of man being in the image of G-d.

The Traveler

[trulykiwi]

Uh yeah. Scientific evidence in fact. Where is your proof of god? A couple millenia old story that no living person can prove ever happened? Your stories are more like Chinese whispers than fact.

I have no need to prove you wrong. I am agreeable you came from apes ha ha

[Traveler]

Uh yeah. Scientific evidence in fact. Where is your proof of god? A couple millenia old story that no living person can prove ever happened? Your stories are more like Chinese whispers than fact.

As a scientist myself I would ask you the question - What scientific evidence is there that proves that no G-d is possible? Or what Prof is there that G-d is not probable?

I will ask another question - What proof is there in science that anything is random - in other words that anything in our temporally ordered universe can exist or happen without a cause. This is what is known in science as the temporal order or the time space continuum.

If we assume string theory (a scientific possibility) we know that our current universe could have been initiated from an 11 dimensional collapse and that time was not a one of the previous 11 dimensions and that (continuing string theory) there are currently dimensions that “intersect” the 3 dimensional universe as we now experience that do not possess time. Thus we know from science that the very elements of G-d that some say science disproves is in fact the opposite and a very real scientific possibility. That science does indeed entertain the elements of G-d as a very real and probable possibility of our universe and a time space continuum as a creation of something that is not based or part of that same time space continuum.

The Traveler

[Guest tomk]

oh, I just have to ask you:

what do you think about Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother coming to live on this planet and eat of it's food (dust) to be able to create physical bodies of flesh and bone for this planet? (because obviously, they created spirit bodies, and we came here to get mortal bodies.)

I don't think that Heavenly Father and Heavenly mother ate the food of this planet. I think it would have no impact upon them one way or another. But it did have an impact upon Adam and Eve. Remember, Adam and Eve, while children of Heavenly Parents, were not exalted beings.

[Guest tomk]

Cmon dude that's enough this has already been proven wrong. Look back and you will see this is a false doctrine!(to those who are steadfast in the truth that is)

Nothing is being proven. It is only being discussed.

I have presented my views. You have presented your views. But I don't consider myself proven wrong at this point.

As I said -- you can believe as you wish. But I would appreciate you not calling me a heretic. I am only expressing opinion, here. I am not suggesting this is doctrine. Nor would I get up in church and teach it from the pulpit. I just think it is interesting to think about -- and I think the Creation account does in fact leave it open for speculation. Why is Eve being created from Adam's rib symbolic, but not Adam being created from dust?

[trulykiwi]

Nothing is being proven. It is only being discussed.

I have presented my views. You have presented your views. But I don't consider myself proven wrong at this point.

As I said -- you can believe as you wish. But I would appreciate you not calling me a heretic. I am only expressing opinion, here. I am not suggesting this is doctrine. Nor would I get up in church and teach it from the pulpit. I just think it is interesting to think about -- and I think the Creation account does in fact leave it open for speculation. Why is Eve being created from Adam's rib symbolic, but not Adam being created from dust?

Woah....... my friend, hold up I am not calling you a heretic. And Eve created from Adams rib is not symbolic, it is literal. Only Adam symbolized what he called her, wo-man symbolizes from man, but it is literal that her creation was from his rib.

James 1:5

I have done this, it works, it is plain and the spirit attests. You should try it instead of discussing something that is the imaginations of MAN. That's why I have knowledge that Adam was made form the dust of the earth not begotten of heavenly parents in the flesh, immortally.

Peace!

[Just_A_Guy]

And Eve created from Adams rib is not symbolic, it is literal.

Brigham Young didn't think so.

Moses made the Bible to say his wife was taken out of his side,–was made from one of his ribs. I do not know anything to the contrary of my ribs being equal on both sides. The Lord knows if I had lost a rib for each wife I have, I should have had none left long ago. ….

Now about the rib. As for the Lord taking a rib out of Adam’s side to make a woman of, he took one out of my side just as much. “But,” brother Brigham, “would you make it appear that Moses did not tell the truth?” No, not a particle more than I would that your mother did not tell the truth, when she told you that little Billy came from a hollow toad stool. I would not accuse your mother of lying, any more than I would Moses; the people in the days of Moses wanted to know things that were not for them, the same as your children do, when they want to know where their little brother came from, and he answered them according to their folly, the same as you did your children.

--Brigham Young, conference address, October 8, 1854

Edited February 2, 2009 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest tomk]

Woah....... my friend, hold up I am not calling you a heretic. And Eve created from Adams rib is not symbolic, it is literal. Only Adam symbolized what he called her, wo-man symbolizes from man, but it is literal that her creation was from his rib.

James 1:5

I have done this, it works, it is plain and the spirit attests. You should try it instead of discussing something that is the imaginations of MAN. That's why I have knowledge that Adam was made form the dust of the earth not begotten of heavenly parents in the flesh, immortally.

Peace!

From Mormon Doctrine, page 242:

"She was placed on earth in the same manner as was Adam, the Mosaic account of the Lord creating her from Adam's rib being merely figurative. (Moses 3:20-25)."

It was symbolic, not literal.

also:

When Adam saw Eve, that glorious being who had been sealed to him as his wife, he was filled with love for her, for she had been taken symbolically from the rib next to his heart. She was not taken from his head to stand over him, nor from his breast to go before him, nor from his back to walk behind him, nor from his foot to be trodden upon. She was taken symbolically from his side—close to his heart to stand by him as a noble companion. He said: “This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.” (Gen. 2:23.) Of marriages such as theirs, the Savior said: “Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.” (Matt. 19:6.)

taken from:

LDS.org - Ensign Article - A Marriage to Last through Eternity

Jeffrey R. Holland, However Long and Hard the Road, p.107

"...Marriage is the highest and holiest and most sacred of human relationships. And because of that, it is the most intimate. When God brought Adam and Eve together before there was any death to separate them, he said, "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh." (Genesis 2:24.) To reinforce the imagery of that unity, the scriptures indicate that God had figuratively taken a rib from Adam's side to make Eve, not from his front that she should lead him and not from his back that she should despise him, but from his side, under his arm, close to his heart. There, bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh, husband and wife were to be united in every way, side by side. They were to give themselves totally to each other, and to "cleave unto [each other] and none else." (D&C 42:22.)

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Definition of figurative:

Based on or making use of figures of speech; metaphorical: figurative language.

Containing many figures of speech; ornate.

Represented by a figure or resemblance; symbolic or emblematic.

Of or relating to artistic representation by means of animal or human figures.

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I hope this helps clear things up.