"Immodest" Dance Outfits: Much Ado About Nothing?


Janice
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Ok, I need a reality check here.

There is a new family that just moved into the ward. There kids are close in age and gender to my own, and NewMom and I have been hitting it off. The first chink in our potential friendship came recently when we went together with our young daughters (ages 9 and 11) to investigate a dance studio she discovered. (Kudos to her! She found a studio in a month that I had not found in 12 years!) We were scouting it out to see if we wanted our girls to join.

NewMom, NewDaughter, myself, and my daughter had only been there a matter of seconds... literally, we had barely breached the doorstep, when NewMom says, "This is not going to work. Let's go."

I was confused. "Huh?" I asked.

"LOOK!" she said, nodding in the direction of a pack of girls only slightly older then ours heavily stooped in the midst of a lesson with a pleasant looking teacher. I looked. I saw... a pack of girls only slightly older then ours heavily stooped in the midst of a lesson with a pleasant looking teacher. They were all having a great time, and in the brief moment I looked, I could tell the teacher was patient, kind, and skilled at keeping the attention of squirmy children.

Then I looked at her, not bothering to hide my confusion.

"... at the OUTFITS!" she whispered out of the corner of her mouth. I looked again, and I knew, with a sinking feeling in my gut, what she meant. The sinking feeling was not, I must mention, because of the outfits, but because of her reaction to them. They were what I would call very normal dance outfits, something like a modest one piece swim suit, but with enough cut out to display most of the back. Some of the girls were wearing tutus, some were not.

I knew without her saying that she found them immodest. I also knew that I saw nothing wrong with them. And I was frustrated that she was ready to turn around and walk right back out the door because of the outfits.

So... I need to know.... who's the screwball here? Me, or her? What would you have done in my shoes?

Edited by Janice
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would you pull your kid from a swimming lesson because some of the swimsuits were immodest? or gymnastics?

i was in dance growing up. we wore tights and bodysuits.

my mom had more of a problem with the amount of makeup they wanted us to wear to the recitals than with the outfits. but to each their own i suppose.

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She is.

What would I have done? Well, I'm decisive about what I will or won't do, and I love a good debate. I'd have said, "What about the outfits?" :itwasntme: They sound like standard leotards. My daughter has taken dance for years, and I'm more watchful about the moves than the outfits...her outfits have always been plain leotards, with or without skirts, short or long sleeved. When I was scouting out teachers, I looked for age-appropriate dance moves and environment.

Edited by mightynancy
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OH... MY.... GOSH.... You would be ok with your daughter showing her back in dance class?!?!?!?! JK I thought that this was usually the place where someone HAS to have a contradicting opinion to those previously given, but I'm thinking I'm not cut out for that position.

I think it's a personal choice. If she felt uncomfortable with it, that's fine. If you're ok with it, that's fine too. What I think I'd do differently would be my reaction in her shoes. Calling attention and causing a scene is not the way to go IMO. I guess I take after my mother (totally Miss Manners) who always took time after the fact to speak with us if something happened that was inappropriate, but she was always as polite and gracious to anyone she came in contact with. Just as Miss Manners would say, "Calling attention to someone else's bad manners IS bad manners". I think the same goes for pointing out someone else's standards that are not the same as yours. That's my take.

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i took dance classes from Virginia Tanner at the UofU 45 years ago. . . our tights had low backs. Scandalous back in 1963. . . But then I heard Virginia H. Pearce in one of her talks say something about taking dance classes from Virginia Tanner. Sis Pearce mentioned our Ginny gowns. . . fond memory. I still have mine.

I guess I don't have a problem with the dance outfits.

Remember the short Basketball shorts the men used to wear for church ball? (Oh my! I'm really dating myself here!!!) That was the uniform and thus ok as long as after the game they showered and changed back into regular clothing. I remember there being a discussion in our ward about it and the bishop taking it to the Regional Rep (would be a Seventy today) who lived in our ward. The answer. . .its a uniform for a sport, like a swim suit for competitive swimming.

Her reaction was fine for her. You can decide for your daughter. Having the discussion in public wasn't ok on her part. She could have still checked out the school and the later discussed her concerns with you in private.

applepansy

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OH my gosh, I'm totally with Honor on this. The girls should be wearing full body suits to dance in. Those allow for great freedom of movement and expression, and they show off great form, plus they breath sooooo much better for sweaty (ahem, perspiring) little girls who are working their tails off.

I am truly disgusted with people who allow their children to dance in leotards.

:P

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Thanks for all the comments. That was more then I expected! I realize from what everyone said that I should have explained a little more about what happened next.

Honors, you are right, calling attention to someone's bad manners IS bad manners, but NewMom was not being rude, she was being discrete about pointing out what she thought were immodest outfits. And when she did, I simply said, "Oh. Okay" and then we left.

Loudmouth, why the chink in our budding friendship? Good question. But please note I didn't way it was the end of our friendship. Not by a country mile. It was just the first time we'd found something on which we didn't see eye to eye.

On the way home we had a long talk about modesty. I asked her (nicely) as soon as we got in the minivan why she was opposed to the outfits. Turns out she had her kids enrolled in a dance studio back in Utah that advertised themselves as "modest", and was more of a Western style studio, so the boys wore jeans, cowboy boots and long sleeve shirts, while the girls wore full length frilly dresses with long sleeves. She said she deeply appreciated how modest the outfits were, and would not feel comfortable having her little girl "prance around the stage" (her words) in a tight outfit that revealed every curve of her body.

I shared my thoughts too. I said that I view modesty as a question of behavior. Sure, clothing is part of modesty, but a rather small part of the big picture. Modesty has to do with not calling undo attention to yourself. So when teaching modesty to our kids, we teach them things like: don't brag, don't be prideful, listen more then you talk, say 'please' and 'thank you', keep yourself clean, and wear clothing that is clean and does not call attention to itself.

Showing "too much skin", to be honest, is something we kinda overlook. At home our kids (daughter nine, daughter six, and son three) love to play in their undies, sometimes even less. When we bake cookies (which is often) we make a right proper mess, and they usually start off in undies and a t-shirt and will sometimes be buck naked by the time the process is done. When they go outside to play they wear a little more, but not much, and it is not uncommon for them to wander back into the house with clothing in hand and not on body. (NewMom was aghast at all of this!)

For school and church, of course, we dress them modestly... which means neat, clean clothing that does call attention to them be being either too cheap, too expensive, to old, too wrinkly, or yes, too skimpy. Sleeveless dresses to church? No problem. They are kids! Let them be kids!

Leotards in dance? What's the problem? Shows to many body curves? Who cares! God gave them those curves! While I am not going to teach my kids to flaunt them, I am also not going to teach them to be ashamed.

What do you all think?

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I shared my thoughts too. I said that I view modesty as a question of behavior. Sure, clothing is part of modesty, but a rather small part of the big picture. Modesty has to do with not calling undo attention to yourself. So when teaching modesty to our kids, we teach them things like: don't brag, don't be prideful, listen more then you talk, say 'please' and 'thank you', keep yourself clean, and wear clothing that is clean and does not call attention to itself.

I think this is a great way to look at it. It's an attitude thing and a behavior thing, otherwise it's just "going through the motions." It has more to do with why we do it than that we do it.

Showing "too much skin", to be honest, is something we kinda overlook. At home our kids (daughter nine, daughter six, and son three) love to play in their undies, sometimes even less. When we bake cookies (which is often) we make a right proper mess, and they usually start off in undies and a t-shirt and will sometimes be buck naked by the time the process is done. When they go outside to play they wear a little more, but not much, and it is not uncommon for them to wander back into the house with clothing in hand and not on body. (NewMom was aghast at all of this!)

I agree that it's a totally different situation at home. Personally, I would say that your children are at the age where they need to be more modest, even at home. I also would be a little repulsed by the baking/cooking naked idea, just from a hygiene and sanitation standpoint.

Leotards in dance? What's the problem? Shows to many body curves? Who cares! God gave them those curves! While I am not going to teach my kids to flaunt them, I am also not going to teach them to be ashamed.

Dancing is a talent that some people develop. A pianist plays beautifully -- that is their talent. A painter creates beautiful lines and colors -- that is their talent. A dancer demonstrates the beauty of their curves, flexibility, and grace -- that is their talent.

I see that you're new here, so I just want to make sure you know I was joking in my previous post. I can be pretty sarcastic at times, and have a dry wit.

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Wingnut... I was with you all the way on your first post. Made me laugh!

What do you mean when you say, "I agree that it's a totally different situation at home. Personally, I would say that your children are at the age where they need to be more modest, even at home."

As for, "I also would be a little repulsed by the baking/cooking naked idea, just from a hygiene and sanitation standpoint." -- ROFL! I promise they wash their hands!!

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Okay having grown up around dance studios and having a sister that owns a dance studio; you aren't the one off base. Most ballet leotards show a full back.

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When they go outside to play they wear a little more, but not much, and it is not uncommon for them to wander back into the house with clothing in hand and not on body.

I think that a 6 and 9 year old are old enough to keep their clothes on when playing, especially outdoors. Maybe you are in a secluded area where they are not viewed, but I would have a lot of trepidation about who might be watching them. I would be worried about their safety.

(Why are they taking their clothes off?)

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OK I agree with her, I am not prudish we walk around home without clothes on, share baths have no lock on the bathroom, talk freely with my children about sex etc. But I took my non member friends to see the BYU ballroom dance troop and I had a very hardtime explaining away their outfits. Were the outfits a uniform>? if so then no my daughter would not be attending. Likewise if an immodest uniform swimsuit would also prevent me from taking my daughter to the class. We are Latter Day Saints and just because everyone does it does not make it modest or I could wear my tank tops or shorts in the summer outside of the house

If you are happy with them that is fine your daughter can attend but she has the right to make that decision for her daughters and you have the right to decide for yours, neither of you are wrong. I personally found a more informal class where my daughter can wear something more suitable for a 5 year old. When I went to a dance class the uniform was a white dress, very modest and suitable.

-Charley

Edited by Elgama
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Ok, I need a reality check here.

There is a new family that just moved into the ward. There kids are close in age and gender to my own, and NewMom and I have been hitting it off. The first chink in our potential friendship came recently when we went together with our young daughters (ages 9 and 11) to investigate a dance studio she discovered. (Kudos to her! She found a studio in a month that I had not found in 12 years!) We were scouting it out to see if we wanted our girls to join.

NewMom, NewDaughter, myself, and my daughter had only been there a matter of seconds... literally, we had barely breached the doorstep, when NewMom says, "This is not going to work. Let's go."

I was confused. "Huh?" I asked.

"LOOK!" she said, nodding in the direction of a pack of girls only slightly older then ours heavily stooped in the midst of a lesson with a pleasant looking teacher. I looked. I saw... a pack of girls only slightly older then ours heavily stooped in the midst of a lesson with a pleasant looking teacher. They were all having a great time, and in the brief moment I looked, I could tell the teacher was patient, kind, and skilled at keeping the attention of squirmy children.

Then I looked at her, not bothering to hide my confusion.

"... at the OUTFITS!" she whispered out of the corner of her mouth. I looked again, and I knew, with a sinking feeling in my gut, what she meant. The sinking feeling was not, I must mention, because of the outfits, but because of her reaction to them. They were what I would call very normal dance outfits, something like a modest one piece swim suit, but with enough cut out to display most of the back. Some of the girls were wearing tutus, some were not.

I knew without her saying that she found them immodest. I also knew that I saw nothing wrong with them. And I was frustrated that she was ready to turn around and walk right back out the door because of the outfits.

So... I need to know.... who's the screwball here? Me, or her? What would you have done in my shoes?

Unfortunately, our culture deems it 'oK.' It is now up to you to make the choices on whether it is 'ok' by your own standards, for your children to wear it and be in the midst of others. Listen to the whispers of the Spirit for guidance.

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Has anyone ever chastized the Osmonds for the outfits they have used over the years?

actually I have had non members say things like well Donny was on Graham Norton the other night why won't you watch it? I won't watch it because its inappropriate. I have non member friends that often comment on well such and such does it why don't you I am sure if I had been around during the height of their fame similar comments would have been made, So whilst its their choice what they do - doesn't mean I have to do something. Like my Gran's saying as I am sure we have all heard something similar would you light yourself on fire and jump into a raging river from a high bridge just because so and so did it - she was even fond of using that with teacher I was quoting lol

Being your own kind of beautiful is important and for me whilst I am making choices for my daughter involves her not wearing skimpy dance attire. I suspect there may come a time where I will have to reconsider as she is proving to be quite good. But hopefully by that time she will be able to make more decisions about it herself

-Charley

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I shared my thoughts too. I said that I view modesty as a question of behavior. Sure, clothing is part of modesty, but a rather small part of the big picture. Modesty has to do with not calling undo attention to yourself. So when teaching modesty to our kids, we teach them things like: don't brag, don't be prideful, listen more then you talk, say 'please' and 'thank you', keep yourself clean, and wear clothing that is clean and does not call attention to itself.

Showing "too much skin", to be honest, is something we kinda overlook. At home our kids (daughter nine, daughter six, and son three) love to play in their undies, sometimes even less. When we bake cookies (which is often) we make a right proper mess, and they usually start off in undies and a t-shirt and will sometimes be buck naked by the time the process is done. When they go outside to play they wear a little more, but not much, and it is not uncommon for them to wander back into the house with clothing in hand and not on body. (NewMom was aghast at all of this!)

For school and church, of course, we dress them modestly... which means neat, clean clothing that does call attention to them be being either too cheap, too expensive, to old, too wrinkly, or yes, too skimpy. Sleeveless dresses to church? No problem. They are kids! Let them be kids!

Leotards in dance? What's the problem? Shows to many body curves? Who cares! God gave them those curves! While I am not going to teach my kids to flaunt them, I am also not going to teach them to be ashamed.

What do you all think?

Now I understand your views better I decided to respond again.

I agree that modesty has two sides, one is attitude (pretty is as pretty does) and one is physical (modest clothing). I was taught that both are important. It doesnt' matter how modest your are on the outside if you aren't modest in attitude. It doesn't matter how modest you are on the inside (please, thank you, listening, etc) if you're immodestly dressed.

I have to also say that at age 5 our tights were far from immodest. When I'm talking low back, I'm talking not lower than the bra line. . . the shoulder blades were not uncovered, just between them a bit. We always had a tutu on. . . it was fun to have fluffy layers of tule netting.

Now a story to explain my point. We had a womann from EFY (Especially For Youth) come speak to our young women and their parents about modesty, in are last ward. She was attractive. She worked out regularly. Ate right. She was not short of confidence. As she talked about modesty she focused on physical modesty. She told of an incident where she was told she would no longer be traveling or talking at EFY because of a modesty issues. She was surprised and hurt that anyone would consider her immodest. Her clothing never showed her garments. Sleeves, higher necklines, skirt lines down to the knees. She said it was a shock. She went home to pray about it. The only thing she could come up with was that her clothing was too tight and she was too proud of how her body looked. She had worked hard for it. She changed how tight her clothing was, asked to go back and was accepted.

As she was talking she said she still wasn't certain exactly what she had done that was immodest and ask the audience what there thoughts were on modesty. The first thing that popped into my mind was what I'd heard all my life - "Pretty is as Pretty does." (In my opinion her attitude was still prideful. Her attitude changed and she became humble when she chose to change her clothing) There were a lot of hands from parents (expecgted in the situation) and we were short on time so I didn't get a chance to talk about the modesty in Attitude.

Another story: When I was working at the temple two years ago I saw another example of this. I was working at the clothing desk where people rent white clothing, when they don't have their own or forget something. I wasnt' busy and two women had changed and walked past from the women's side to the stairs on the men's side. As they walked past one of the women caught my eye and my mouth fell open. I had to quickly close it and I was embarassed. The dress she had on covered her from her neck to the floor. However, it was so tight you could see that she worked out. You could see every ripple of her muscles as she walked and she had a slip on. Then there was her attitude. Obviously she was proud of how she looked. I believe she had a right to ber proud of herself. She had worked hard for that body. However, to wear a tight dress that showed her body was not appropriate, even and especially in the temple, but I wondered how she dressed outside the temple.

Just a few months ago I saw the same dress on an overweight woman, again too tight. Most definitely not modest. Again, attitude.

My point is that both physical modesty and modesty in attitude are essential and when the scriptures or the General Authorities talk about modesty they are talking about both kinds. They go hand-in-hand.

About kids, ages 6 and 9 running around in their undies. . .well, kids will model as adults what they learn is comfortable as children. My daughter is 21 now. She always dresses modestly. I have never had a problem with her on this isssue even as a teenager. From the time she was tiny, sunsuits had sleeves and she wore full swimsuits. This caused contention with my MIL. She felt "she's only a child, let her be a kid." My attitude "No, now, as a child, is when she will get used to being modest and feel uncomfortable later when she is older and is tempted to be undressed in public." It worked for my daughter. I'm not being judgemental nor am I bragging. She's rebellious in others ways at tmes. Kids!!! They always find a way to test us, at least modesty hasn't been one of her ways.

applepansy

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Now a story to explain my point. We had a womann from EFY (Especially For Youth) come speak to our young women and their parents about modesty, in are last ward. She was attractive. She worked out regularly. Ate right. She was not short of confidence. As she talked about modesty she focused on physical modesty. She told of an incident where she was told she would no longer be traveling or talking at EFY because of a modesty issues. She was surprised and hurt that anyone would consider her immodest. Her clothing never showed her garments. Sleeves, higher necklines, skirt lines down to the knees. She said it was a shock. She went home to pray about it. The only thing she could come up with was that her clothing was too tight and she was too proud of how her body looked. She had worked hard for it. She changed how tight her clothing was, asked to go back and was accepted.

Wow, whoever told her she was being immodest and was not willing to say why sure was displaying an excellent example of passive-agressive personality disorder.

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Wow, whoever told her she was being immodest and was not willing to say why sure was displaying an excellent example of passive-agressive personality disorder.

We were only told her version of the story. I didn't have the opportunity to hear her supervisor's version.

I didn't get the feeling that he was passive-agressive when I heard her talk. I don't think she felt he was.

Fiannan, do you always jump to weird conclusions?

applepansy

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This is an article that caused me pause for thought, and I think fits with what applepansy is trying to say I have just posted 2 paragraphs from it

LDS.org - Liahona Article - Modesty: Reverence for the Lord

Outward Appearance—the Messages We Send

Imagine that you are watching a play. An actor comes on stage dressed as a clown but starts playing the serious part of the lead. You might react by thinking that this is inappropriate—there must be some mistake in the costuming or casting.

Now think of how inappropriate it is to go out into the world or come to church dressed in clothes that do not represent who you really are in spirit. Our outward appearance and behavior give a message. What message are we sending? Does it reflect that we are children of God? When we go to church or the temple, it is important that we dress to demonstrate that we are prepared to worship and to indicate that we are mentally and spiritually ready to invite the Spirit to be with us always.

Years ago, as a father and bishop in the Church, I could not understand the rationale of youth who dressed in wild colors and provocative fashions to show their “in your face” independence from modest, conservative dress codes and traditions. Then I would observe that, ironically, the rigid compliance of these youth to their bizarre dress codes required far greater obedience and conformity to peer-group pressures than that desired by society as a whole.

When we dress for attention, we are not inviting the Spirit to be with us. We act differently when we are dressed for the world’s attention. Moreover, what we wear will influence the behavior of others toward us.

Consider why missionaries dress conservatively in a skirt and blouse or in a suit with a white shirt and tie. How might someone respond if the missionary had unkempt hair and if he or she were dressed in blue jeans, flip-flops, and a T-shirt with a tawdry printed message? That person might ask, “Is this a representative of God?” Why would that person want to engage in a serious conversation about the purpose of life or the Restoration of the gospel with such a missionary?

Of course we don’t need to dress like missionaries all of the time. There are certainly times when modest casual clothing is appropriate. The point is this: How we dress affects how people react to us. It also demonstrates where our heart and spirit really desire to be.

How we feel on the inside shows on the outside. We show love and respect for ourselves and others by our attitude, speech, and dress. We show love and respect for Church leaders and ward or branch members by speaking, dressing, and behaving in a manner that does not bring inappropriate attention to ourselves. We show love and respect for friends and associates when our language, dress, and behavior are not provocative or unduly casual. And we show love and respect to the Lord through humble dress and behavior. “By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another” (John 13:35).

Putting on “the Whole Armor”

When we know who we are—children of God—and understand that our outward appearance affects our inward spirituality and ultimately our behavior, we show respect for God, for ourselves, and for those around us by being modest in dress and behavior.

My father, who was an artist, helped me understand this concept when I was a boy. He drew me a picture of a knight in armor and labeled the critical elements of “the whole armor of God” as described in the scriptures (see Ephesians 6:11–17; D&C 27:15–18). That picture hung in my bedroom and became a reminder of what we need to do to remain true and faithful to gospel principles.

Just as we are to “put on” the armor of God, we are to “put on” our clothes as protection for us and others. Clothing ourselves with modest dress and modest actions—mercy, kindness, humility, patience, and charity—will invite the companionship of the Spirit and will positively affect those around us (see Colossians 3:12, 14).

Are we determined to be Saints in the kingdom of God, or are we more comfortable in the ways of the world? Ultimately, how we dress will greatly influence our obedience to commandments and devotion to covenants. Dressing modestly will guide our attitudes and behavior as we conduct our daily lives. In time our dress may even determine who our friends and associates may be, thus influencing whether we live worthy of enjoying the blessings of happiness in this world and for eternity.

It is my fervent prayer that we will hold to our covenants and be modest in our dress and behavior as we attend church, visit the temple, and go about our daily lives. As we do so, we will show respect for ourselves, our parents, our Church leaders, and others, and we will show reverence to our Heavenly Father and invite the Spirit to be with us always.

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Unfortunately, our culture deems it 'oK.' It is now up to you to make the choices on whether it is 'ok' by your own standards, for your children to wear it and be in the midst of others. Listen to the whispers of the Spirit for guidance.

Hemidakota, help me understand. Please explain in your own words why it is wrong for dancers to wear dancing outfits "in the midst of others". I would like you to provide me with a well thought out, clear, logical response.... more then just "it's wrong."

I just don't see anything wrong with wearing a dance outfit to dance. Wear what is appropriate for the occasion. Wearing a dance outfit to church would be immodest. So would wearing church clothes to dance in.

Listen to the whispers of the Spirit for guidance?!? Do you know how demeaning that statement is? It seems to me that you have assumed that I have *not* listened to the whispers of the Spirit for guidance, and if I just would, then I would know that it's wrong to let my kids wear a perfectly normal dance outfit "in the midst of others".

Don't get me wrong here... I am not getting huffy or puffy or upset... I just want to have a good discussion with you. If YOU think it's wrong for YOUR kids not to wear such an outfit "in the midst of others", that is totally fine. I won't judge you for it. But, you have implied that the Holy Ghost would tell ALL parents that it's wrong, if they will but listen to His whispers.

I would like you to defend your statement! :)

Janice

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I think that a 6 and 9 year old are old enough to keep their clothes on when playing, especially outdoors. Maybe you are in a secluded area where they are not viewed, but I would have a lot of trepidation about who might be watching them. I would be worried about their safety.

(Why are they taking their clothes off?)

Ok, I have a bad habit of talking to little :D (is that even possible?) I should really explain before someone calls child services.

We live in a secluded enough area where it's not too big an issue. They don't run around the neighborhood naked, but they do play in the back yard (where nobody else can see them) naked... from time to time... mostly in the summer when the heat is overwhelming and the cool water of the sprinkler cools them off. In such cases, they prefer to enjoy the sprinkler au-natural, and I have never seen a need to tell them otherwise. I did the same thing as a kid, and I wish I still could!

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