"Immodest" Dance Outfits: Much Ado About Nothing?


Janice
 Share

Recommended Posts

I don't agree with the shower thing either. There comes a time when even that goes beyond modesty in my opinion. Not that anything sexual is going on...but it sends mixed signals that it's okay to show our bodies to others.

Just my opinion.

Duly noted as your opinion. The following is just mine ^_^

As for mixed signals, well, that is exactly what we are trying to avoid. Our kids are not confused about showing their bodies to others, just as I wasn't growing up the same way. I am concerned about the mixed signals in the other direction.

Here's what I mean.

The media tells our kids that our bodies are sexy, and that flaunting them and using them for sex is fun and exciting. We often respond with what seems like a natural retort. "Hide your body! Don't ever show it to anyone! Doing so is not modest! If others see you it can lead to impure thoughts and actions!"

When we react to one extreme (media pushing sex) with another extreme (false modesty), nobody wins, and the message we send is often not what we intended. Too often this is what our kids hear: Our bodies must be kept hidden because they are pornographic and carnal, and they can cause others to sin.

I know this is not what we MEAN to tell our kids, but I'm afraid it's the message we send. We inadvertently try and scare them into modesty, and we use their bodies as the scare tactic. This is exactly what Satan would have us believe: There is something wrong with our bodies.

We are trying to avoid those mixed signals by letting them learn that their bodies are glorious, wonderful creations of their loving Heavenly Father.

I know. I know. This is a radical approach for us North American Mormons. But believe me... to families in many other parts of the world, this conversation would seem strange for the opposite reason you think it does. :)

So much of what we think of as right and wrong is cultural. So much.

Janice

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 238
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Actually what I have tried to teach my children is that our bodies are temples and not to be shown to just anyone. Now do I want my teenage daughter or my teenage sons to be walking around nude at home? No I don't. Nor do I allow them to see me getting out of the shower or changing clothes. Why? Because I don't think it's appropriate. Call me a radial North American Mormon then. I'll accept the name.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

she was not a particpant in EFY as a youth. . .she was an employee. As an employee her employer had the right to expect a certain dress code.

I caught that...except if she was a paid employee the employer, if he or she indeed did not give just cause for the termination, was in violation of the law and could have been sued big time.

And being passive aggressive would not be a good legal defense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But... here we are... back to clothing again... if kids take off their clothes to run through the sprinkler in the back yard, does the mere absence of clothing automatically render them immodest? If a mom and dad keep the door open while showering and then toweling off so daughters can use the mirror to brush hair and teeth at the same time, does the mere absence of clothing automatically render these parents immodest?

Does modestly mean we must always hide God's creation, even from our own kin? Where did this idea come from? Who was it that first taught us to hide our bodies from loved ones?

The apostles of Jesus fished in the nude.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But... here we are... back to clothing again... if kids take off their clothes to run through the sprinkler in the back yard, does the mere absence of clothing automatically render them immodest?

I had a small family blog that used to track the weekly number of hits. I'd make my little posts with mainly pictures and a few short obscure words describing them. I'd get maybe a dozen hits in a week. Then one post, the hit count jumped to a few hundred in a week. The only difference was that I had included the phrase "little children" in the post, instead of my usual "bunlings" or "wee kidlets".

Translation: There are people out there who are searching the net for pictures of "little children".

Conclusion: A segment of those people are searching for sexual titilation.

I'm wondering, is there more than one aspect of immodesty? We're making big points about how it's a state of the heart and attitude and whatnot, but does not immodesty have a component that exists in the eye of the beholder?

Learning what I've learned about child sex offenders, I would absolutely consider my kids immodest for running around the back yard with no clothes on. Not just immodest, but also very dangerous. Back in 1973, when I was ignorant of such people, I thought no such thing upon discovering an innocent giggly neighbor kid streaking down the street away from her mom.

LM

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Applepansy, I can't blame you for not having read everything in this very-long thread, but if you look back... somewhere, you will see that I shared earlier that I have already dug to the very inner depths of lds-dot-org looking for every quote and passage I can find on modesty and clothing. In my humble opinion, they all come down to this: When you are dressed, dress modestly. Not only have I found nothing with which I disagree, I also found nothing which tells me our chosen life style is wrong.

If, however, you know of a quote that I missed, then please do share!!! I admit it's possible that I missed something. Please know that I am not interested in a vague quote on modesty followed up by your opinion and your conclusion... but I would be interested in a quote from a church leader which says, in a nut shell, "After a certain age, children should no longer be nude at home." Or, "After a certain age, children should no longer see their parents naked."

I have looked for such quotes, and trust me, they ain't there!!! You want to know why I think they are not there? Because the LDS church is a multi-national, multi-cultural church, and while in North America many of you think it's wrong for kids to be naked at home and for kids and parents to share bathrooms at the same time, in most other cultures, this is absolutely normal.

Janice

I'm reminded of "Teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves." Sometimes we don't see the same things in the counsel of our leaders. I also don't agree that the international nature of the Church is the reason you aren't finding the specifics you want. Members in other nations are held to the same standards as we are here.

Elder Hale's talk was pretty clear to me. When my children were young there was the odd occassion where my children may have seen me naked but after age two or so, Never. Did we share a bathroom? Yes. The shower curtain was opaque and I or the kids toweled off in the shower if someone else was in the bathroom. My sons didn't see me naked and my daughter didn't see her Dad naked. We modeled modesty in my home. I can't expect my children to behave modestly if I'm not modeling the behavior.

The bolded parts of your post above are not going to be found. That's asking to be commanded specifically in all things.

I think we're disagreeing on something here that is the difference between the spirit of the law and the letter of the law. I'm on the side of the Spirit. (Yes Wingnut already made this point. . .I agree with her)

While I disagree with nudity in the home, I do not disagree that you have the right to conduct your home life as you see fit. I've had kids covered in flour, eggs and chocolate. . .they got hosed off in their clothes.

applepansy

P.S. Seems I'm agreeing with Wingnut.

Edited by applepansy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay, confession time: I put gym shorts on in my home, and drive a couple miles to the fitness center. Once in a while on the way home from the gym, I will stop at the grocery store and pick up something my wife has asked me to pick up. Keep in mind, I am still in my gym shorts, which don't quite reach as far as the knee. To be fair, because I am slightly taller than average, my garments don't reach my knees either. Am I being immodest when I do that?

What you describe reminds me of something that had a big impact on me as a 13yo teenager. I went water skiing with my friends family. Her Dad had been my bishop and was now my Stake President (He later became a Regional Rep).

The parents did not change out of their street clothes and garments until we got to the lake. Then a "blanket" tent was set up so that Mom and Dad could change. When Mom and Dad were finished water skiing, they changed back. (The boat was loaded and unloaded while he was in his street clothes.) The boys (older teens werre the ones getting wet.

The situation caught my attention. My Dad played church ball (back then they didn't wear their garments to play). My Dad also hung out at the Deseret Gym. . . I remember when it was decided to make a Women's side at the Gym. . . oh dear. . .the men would need swim trunks to swim in the bigger pools. My parents were conscious of when it was appropriate to wear garments or not and it was taught at home. BUT, Dad had driven home from the church in his Basketball uniform.

To see people I looked up to hold themselves to a higher standard got my attention. It helped me understand the importance of our convenants in the temple and the importance of the garment. I truly appreciate their example. While not being obvious in living their convenants they were meticulous in obeying temple instruction.

applepansy

BTW, Its perfectly apppropriate to wear your garments while exercising.

Edited by applepansy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I caught that...except if she was a paid employee the employer, if he or she indeed did not give just cause for the termination, was in violation of the law and could have been sued big time.

And being passive aggressive would not be a good legal defense.

This is off topic and because I didn't get super specific in my description of the interview, nor did the speaker at the fireside, you are assuming alot.

If you want to discuss the employee/employer relationship, start another thread.

Edited by applepansy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I read a lot of the thread but not all. I wear my temple garments when I exercise. The shorts I wear go just below my knee and I wear a Tshirt. No reason I can't wear them and exercise.

I don't swim in them, shower in them or get intimate in them but do just about everything else in them.

When I was younger I was less concerned with wearing them "all the time".

Ben Raines

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The media tells our kids that our bodies are sexy, and that flaunting them and using them for sex is fun and exciting. We often respond with what seems like a natural retort. "Hide your body! Don't ever show it to anyone! Doing so is not modest! If others see you it can lead to impure thoughts and actions!"

When we react to one extreme (media pushing sex) with another extreme (false modesty), nobody wins, and the message we send is often not what we intended. Too often this is what our kids hear: Our bodies must be kept hidden because they are pornographic and carnal, and they can cause others to sin.

You do realize that the word 'carnal' comes from the Latin carnalis, meaning "fleshly?" Our bodies are carnal.

Whatever you teach your children about their bodies, there are people who will always think of a naked body as a sex object, or will think sexual things when they see a naked body.

As a young woman, I was taught that modesty was two-fold. One, my body is a temple. I should treat it and cover it accordingly, and save it to be shown only to my husband. The second part was that I should dress modestly to help prevent the young men with whom I associated from thinking impure thoughts. Obviously I had no control over anyone else's thought process, but if I didn't encourage it, it was better for all of us.

Your daughters and son may not be ashamed of their bodies (and neither am I), and they may not be cautious of showing them off, but there are others who need them to be modest.

I'm wondering, is there more than one aspect of immodesty? We're making big points about how it's a state of the heart and attitude and whatnot, but does not immodesty have a component that exists in the eye of the beholder?

Exactly. We may not have direct control over this, but we certainly don't have to encourage it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

After reading through this whole post I wish there was a refresher course on the "new endowment instruction." This is the part where the specifics of wearing the garment are explained. When my son went to the temple for the first time he was the only Missionary that day, so I was invited to be there for his "new endowment instruction." It was a wonderful reminder of what is commanded and what is expected.

When we go through the first time (the only time instruction is given) we are so overwhelmed that we sometimes forget some things. I know I did. I didn't change my view of modesty but I found it nice to reaffirm my views on modesty.

applepansy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You do realize that the word 'carnal' comes from the Latin carnalis, meaning "fleshly?" Our bodies are carnal.

Whatever you teach your children about their bodies, there are people who will always think of a naked body as a sex object, or will think sexual things when they see a naked body.

As a young woman, I was taught that modesty was two-fold. One, my body is a temple. I should treat it and cover it accordingly, and save it to be shown only to my husband. The second part was that I should dress modestly to help prevent the young men with whom I associated from thinking impure thoughts. Obviously I had no control over anyone else's thought process, but if I didn't encourage it, it was better for all of us.

Your daughters and son may not be ashamed of their bodies (and neither am I), and they may not be cautious of showing them off, but there are others who need them to be modest.

Exactly. We may not have direct control over this, but we certainly don't have to encourage it.

I completely agree.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The second part was that I should dress modestly to help prevent the young men with whom I associated from thinking impure thoughts.

I abhor this theory. I despise it. I view it as the pinnacle of false modesty doctrine. I will never teach my girls that their bodies, by simply existing, will cause boys to have impure thoughts. What a splendid way to teach them to fear their own bodies. What a fantastic way to teach them to fear the thoughts of boys.

I hung my head in sadness, when, a few months ago, we did a youth temple trip and I watched as a handful of young women in the ward opted out of the trip because they were afraid the young men would be "looking them up" as they came out of the font dripping wet with the jump suits clinging to their bodies. So out of fear of the young men and the possible impure thoughts they might cause them to have towards their bodies, they opted to not go to the temple. This horrible, awful teaching poisons the minds of our girls.

When we teach our girls this terrible principle, we also teach them the flip side of the same idea: If you want to yield power over boys, just show a little skin.

Not in my family. Ick.

Janice

Edited by Janice
Link to comment
Share on other sites

After reading through this whole post I wish there was a refresher course on the "new endowment instruction." This is the part where the specifics of wearing the garment are explained. When my son went to the temple for the first time he was the only Missionary that day, so I was invited to be there for his "new endowment instruction." It was a wonderful reminder of what is commanded and what is expected.

When we go through the first time (the only time instruction is given) we are so overwhelmed that we sometimes forget some things. I know I did. I didn't change my view of modesty but I found it nice to reaffirm my views on modesty.

applepansy

I agree. I love wearing garments and do so as often as I can. And I enjoy wearing clothing that respects them.

Edited by Janice
Link to comment
Share on other sites

After reading through this whole post I wish there was a refresher course on the "new endowment instruction." This is the part where the specifics of wearing the garment are explained. When my son went to the temple for the first time he was the only Missionary that day, so I was invited to be there for his "new endowment instruction." It was a wonderful reminder of what is commanded and what is expected.

When we go through the first time (the only time instruction is given) we are so overwhelmed that we sometimes forget some things. I know I did. I didn't change my view of modesty but I found it nice to reaffirm my views on modesty.

applepansy

I bet you could arrange a meeting with the temple matron the next time you'll be going to the temple, and just ask her for a brief refresher course.

I hung my head in sadness, when, a few months ago, we did a youth temple trip and I watched as a handful of young women in the ward opted out of the trip because they were afraid the young men would be "looking them up" as they came out of the font dripping wet with the jump suits clinging to their bodies. So out of fear of the young men and the possible impure thoughts they might cause them to have towards their bodies, they opted to not go to the temple. This horrible, awful teaching poisons the minds of our girls.

I find it sad that the young women were concerned about the idea that the young men would be doing that in the temple. That thought has never occurred to me. I daresay that many worthy Priesthood-holding young men who are attending the temple aren't concerned about looking to see the girls' figures through the highly attractive jumpsuits.

If you want to yield power over boys, just show a little skin.

I think this idea counteracts the very concept of modesty.

Not in my family. Ick.

With regards to the previous comment (skin = power), I ditto the "ick."

I agree. I love wearing garments and do so as often as I can. And I enjoy wearing clothing that respects them.

As often as you can? If you're endowed, I hope that's pretty much all that time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I abhor this theory. I despise it. I view it as the pinnacle of false modesty doctrine. I will never teach my girls that their bodies, by simply existing, will cause boys to have impure thoughts. What a splendid way to teach them to fear their own bodies. What a fantastic way to teach them to fear the thoughts of boys.

I hung my head in sadness, when, a few months ago, we did a youth temple trip and I watched as a handful of young women in the ward opted out of the trip because they were afraid the young men would be "looking them up" as they came out of the font dripping wet with the jump suits clinging to their bodies. So out of fear of the young men and the possible impure thoughts they might cause them to have towards their bodies, they opted to not go to the temple. This horrible, awful teaching poisons the minds of our girls.

When we teach our girls this terrible principle, we also teach them the flip side of the same idea: If you want to yield power over boys, just show a little skin.

Not in my family. Ick.

Janice

Its not a terribly principal, its true and its taught by men who have a better insight into how other men think than women do. And these men are General Authorites. Their behavior is above reproach.

I'm sorry that it has been blown out of proportion in your life and ward. All correct principals can be blown out of proportion. I believe this to be one of Satan's tactics. Are our daughter's literally responsible for boys' thoughts? Heavens NO! However, how our daughters dress and act has an effect that cannot be ignored. To ignore it is to not prepare your daughters for circumstances that can arise as they get older.

My mother had the same philosphy about teaching children about modesty and the opposite sex as my grandfather. "There's no need to talk about it. Just put the newly married couple in a room together. They'll eventually figure it out" I was totally unprepared when I started dating in the 70s. Its important to teach young men and young women about each other in an appropriate way. This is the job of parents first, then YM/YW Leaders, Bishops, etc. second.

In our ward, we rarely go through Prom without hearing from one of the young men who bears his testimony on this subject the following Fast Sunday, and thanks his date for being modest in dressing for Prom. The young men in our ward appreciate that the girls take their natural instincts seriously and do not place temptation in their way.

If you were in the temple with those girls, I assume you are a YW leader or teacher? If not, talk to the YW President and explain what happened. These girls need to know that the boys are in the temple to do Baptisms and their thoughts are not on the girls. Its important to undo false beliefs children may have, just as its important to teach true principles.

applepansy

Edited by applepansy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As often as you can? If you're endowed, I hope that's pretty much all that time.

Yup, with the exception of the standard exceptions: showering, swimming, working out, and sex. I prefer to not wear them to work out... don't feel its respectful to drench them in sweat and BO. When we go to the beach, hubby and I wear garments until we get there, then we slip out of them and into swimsuits in the back of the minivan (taking advantage of tinted windows) and then do the same before the drive home.

I am not, however, a garment nazzi who believes we should never, ever have them off.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hung my head in sadness, when, a few months ago, we did a youth temple trip and I watched as a handful of young women in the ward opted out of the trip because they were afraid the young men would be "looking them up" as they came out of the font dripping wet with the jump suits clinging to their bodies. So out of fear of the young men and the possible impure thoughts they might cause them to have towards their bodies, they opted to not go to the temple. This horrible, awful teaching poisons the minds of our girls.

I have been on many Youth Temple Trips, and the only time I have known any of the girls to "opt out" was due to their vanity...not wanting to get their hair wet/mess up their make-up. I must say, I would rather them have cared about a modesty issue, (not saying there should be one) rather than such a vain one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its not a terribly principal, its true and its taught by men who have a better insight into how other men think than women do. And these men are General Authorites. Their behavior is above reproach.

I have never heard or read this principle taught by a G.A. Sure, they teach us to dress modestly, as they should. And I agree 100% with all of their teachings on dressing modestly. But I have NEVER heard them say we need to do so because not doing so will cause others to have impure thoughts. The only people I have ever heard espousing this idiot notion is over-zealous, phobia-driven young women leaders... the same leaders who teach that girls should wear a t-shirt over their one-piece swim suits so as not to ensnare some poor boy and cause him to sin by seeing the shape of the girl's body.

Hey, you know what? Maybe the Muslims have it right, and all girls post-puberty should wear full burkas when going outside. The reason they wear them, of course, is because they know that lustful, evil men can't handle seeing the shape of a woman's body without having impure thoughts.

Blhat! Ew! Ish!

Edited by Janice
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ummm... back the boat up.

I thought you were going to ask if it's wrong to go shopping without your garments on, because I just assumed you would take them off to workout. Maybe I missed something, but I am pretty sure we ain't supposed to be wearing garments to work out. Am I wrong? I'm gonna hafta look this one up.

Janice!

I don't. My wife does. Which one is more evil?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited) · Hidden
Hidden

I have never heard or read this principle taught by a G.A. Sure, they teach us to dress modestly, as they should. And I agree 100% with all of their teachings on dressing modestly. But I have NEVER heard them say we need to do so because not doing so will cause others to have impure thoughts. The only people I have ever heard espousing this idiot notion is over-zealous, phobia-driven young women leaders... the same leaders who teach that girls should wear a t-shirt over their one-piece swim suits so as not to ensnare some poor boy and cause him to sin by seeing the shape of the girl's body.

Blhat! Ew! Ish!

There have been talks given at Young Women's Converence. If I have time today I'll look them up. I'm going out of town to tend my baby sister's children for five days. If I don't get to it today, I'll try to remember when I get back.

applepansy

Edited by applepansy
Link to comment

I have never heard or read this principle taught by a G.A. Sure, they teach us to dress modestly, as they should. And I agree 100% with all of their teachings on dressing modestly. But I have NEVER heard them say we need to do so because not doing so will cause others to have impure thoughts. The only people I have ever heard espousing this idiot notion is over-zealous, phobia-driven young women leaders... the same leaders who teach that girls should wear a t-shirt over their one-piece swim suits so as not to ensnare some poor boy and cause him to sin by seeing the shape of the girl's body.

Hey, you know what? Maybe the Muslims have it right, and all girls post-puberty should wear full burkas when going outside. The reason they wear them, of course, is because they know that lustful, evil men can't handle seeing the shape of a woman's body without having impure thoughts.

Blhat! Ew! Ish!

I'll look up the talks from Young Women's Conference. If not today, I'll try to remember to do it when I get back in five days. (I'm tending my sister's children)

I think you're going overboard here. Nobody is asking our daughters to wear burkas.

applepansy

Edit: I have to ask. . . What happened that precipitated such strong feelings on this subject? And back to the OP - Is your daughter going to participate in the dance classes? I hope so.

Edited by applepansy
Addition
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Never read that we should not wear our garments when we workout. I guess if someone wants to work out in little shorts and a sports bra or for men tight shorts and a muscle shirt then they shouldn't wear their garments.

For me loose shorts and a regular T shirt covers everything regarding my garments.

As far a sweat and BO that would keep me from wearing them when I do yard work, when chopping firewood and many other activities around the house.

I think the temple recommend questions is "Do you wear the temple garment both day and night as instructed in the temple?". If doubts about what the temple instruction is you can always ask again when in the temple the next time.

Ben Raines

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share