Well I guess it is ok to do that.....

[TheyCallMeMom]

My husband and I have gone through the "proper channels" in regards to my UNMARRIED brother living in the same house with the Bishop and his daughter ( whom my brother is dating) . Nothing has been done about it and its been 3 months..

I have been a member of this church for less than a year.. and I have seen so much hypocrisy and inconsistency with church leaders..

really speaks poorly of the organization.. and its not in just one ward..

Its my testimony to the Gospel that keeps me here.. otherwise I would have left.

sorry if I'm whining .. I had to talk about it so I could work on letting it go..

[Palerider]

My husband and I have gone through the "proper channels" in regards to my UNMARRIED brother living in the same house with the Bishop and his daughter ( whom my brother is dating) . Nothing has been done about it and its been 3 months..

I have been a member of this church for less than a year.. and I have seen so much hypocrisy and inconsistency with church leaders..

really speaks poorly of the organization.. and its not in just one ward..

Its my testimony to the Gospel that keeps me here.. otherwise I would have left.

sorry if I'm whining .. I had to talk about it so I could work on letting it go..

I have seen and expierenced some of what you mention. I always remind myself...the people are not perfect...the Church Organization is but not the people.....gird up your loins...fresh courage take and hang in there.....Always make Christ the center of your home...

[pam]

Move on. You will not have to answer for anything. Just concentrate on you and your own immediate family.

[TheyCallMeMom]

I am just glad that that is no longer the Bishop I am going to seek my temple recommend from for my Temple Sealing..

[skalenfehl]

Hang in there, remember where your testimony is focused and you'll be fine. I love your avatar. :)

[orrinjelo]

It is common for us to see someone in authority and place them on a pedestal. Just remember that they are just like us; they will have their faults and they are sinners too. God calls us to our various positions because he knows us, never because we are more perfect than someone else.

[TheyCallMeMom]

I understand that we are human and make mistakes and bad decisions.. I have made many myslef.. and will make many more..

where I take issue is how many are involved in making this bad decision

there are lets see 1,2,3,4,5,6, at least 6 adults who know better and are supporting this, 3 are in the church authority - Bishopric and Stake presidency

[Maxel]

How old is your brother, and is he having sexual relations with his girlfriend (bishop's daughter)? Also, what's his situation- does he have a job and is able to find other lodging, or for some reason is he up with his back against a wall? I agree with you that the situation is far from normal propriety, yet I can't help feeling that there must be something else to the story. I don't mean to say you are intentionally leaving it out, but perhaps it's something you haven't considered before. Also, is he engaged to this girl?

I ask because of an experience I had with a good friend a few years ago. My friend came from a rough background and had to overcome a lot to get where he was, in good standing before God (in my opinion, anyway). He started dating a girl and got engaged to her. They strove in the utmost to fulfill their duties to chastity (and I am fully convinced they both succeeded) in the face of extenuating circumstances. My friend's old roommates, while not bad guys, were not the most positive influence. They were lazy, given to playing far too many video games and not given enough to... well, anything else. The environment at his house was something he had to overcome, yet he couldn't move because of money issues.

When he was engaged to this girl, he continued living at home until he couldn't stand it. His roommates would talk openly about his fiance, saying cruel, spiteful things. The Holy Ghost was never present in the house, and that pained my friend in the worst way. He eventually 'moved' out (for all intents and purposes) and crashed on his fiance's couch for the final 3 weeks before the wedding. I spent a decent amount of time with him and at her house, and I can safely say the spirit of God was present in a degree that it would not have been if they were having sexual relations before the wedding.

Long story short, it may be improper, but there may be other circumstances that (almost) warrant his behavior. That's not to say I condone it, but merely that I think more needs to be known about the situation.

[TheyCallMeMom]

my brother makes 15 bucks and hour and is single.. he is perfectly able to care for himself. He actually travels nearly an hour from his current residence to his work.

as far as sexual relations I have no clue.. IMO is it irrelevant.. It is my understand that living with an unrelated member of the opposite sex is a no no.. I cant even have the missionaries over if my husband isnt home.. but I guess those rules only apply to some of us..

[Maxel]

Well, I guess that throws extenuating circumstances out the window.

I'm really sorry that you are bombarded with bad examples of correct living- from your leaders, no less! What do they say when confronted about the issue?

[TheyCallMeMom]

bishop never returned calls

bishopric insulted us and avoided the actual topic then hung up on us. he had the exact same situation about 6 mos ago with the same results.. the couple lived together for the few mos before their wedding.

Stake Pres was contacted several times by message and email.. finally returned the call was explained again the situation and has not addressed it and has washed his hands of it so to speak

I guess that is why I am so upset.. the original issue is still well an issue and now it is more with the way it was handled..

[Maxel]

Wow, that really is bad... I'm really sorry. Wish I could help.

[Moksha]

I have aways liked the Order of the Garter's motto "Honi soit qui mal y pense". It translates from the Old French to, "shame upon him who thinks evil upon it."

Too many people are willing to assign wrongdoing to the innocent. Judge not 'cuz there will always be people wanting to judge you. Can't complain to the People's Committee on Proper Thought and Action, since we still live within a free country that accords people the presumption of innocence. Best to be loving and merciful since that is Christ-like.

:)

[applepansy]

TheyCallMeMom,

On the other thread you posted about this situation I agreed with Ben and hit the "thanks" button but didn't post. Since then I've had a situation occur in my home and I'm not sure where I stand on this issue exactly.

I truly believe that we need to set an example and I really really believe we need to avoid the appearance of evil. Having said that I found myself in a conflicting situation just after Christmas. Long story. . . I'll try to give you the short version.

A "friend" of my 24yo son became homeless. She's divorced and has custody of her 7yo son. I couldn't allow her to sleep in her car, in Utah, in subzero temps. So she lived with us for about 6 weeks (she moved out today). It looked bad. Her Ex husband made it look worse with his attempt to start rumors to discredit his ex-wife. The rumors we had heard about her turned out to be wrong. I was hesitant to begin with. . . we discussed the situation with our son and laid down some very specific rules that were not to be broken about boundaries. We also talked to her about boundaries. He wasn't allowed in her room unless it was to put the 7yo to bed when she worked late and she wasn't home. No snuggling, etc.

We were concerned enough about appearances we talked to the Bishop of our ward and the Bishop of the Ward where her ex-husband lives. (She and her Ex are Jehovah Witness) We didn't involve the bishops for any other reason except for them to be aware of what was happening to the family (the dad, mom and kids), even though they are divorced they are still a family.

After she moved in I became aware of many extenuating circumstances and hopefully helped a young woman in need. When we told her she could stay with us she started crying and said no one had been nice to her before. Since then I've learned more about her life and I'm so happy I put aside my reservations and reached out to someone in need, even if it looked really bad. If we could show her and her children (three others with Dad, but have been at our house a lot) how parents should treat each other. If we could show them what a family is suppose to be. Then we were doing the right thing.

Another side of the issue "is it right for those of the opposite sex to live together" is that from the outside we can't always know what is going on. Looking in, it would appear wrong for this Bishop to allow your brother to live in his home, with his daughter. However, you don't know what conversations have taken place, or what actions have been required. Sometimes because of confidentiality, even after we make our concerns about some inpropriety known, we aren't told the outcome and we never see it either.

My husband has been in the bishopric. . .released a few months ago. I'm sure there are people in our ward who have judged us harshly.

Anyway. . . my point(s) is/are this. Not everyone is perfect. We have a lay clergy, and they are human too. We cannot know everything about every situation. We are commanded to "judge not, lest you be judged." We are often not in a position to receive revelation about some of these situations, but the Bishop/Stake President are, and we aren't going to know what the Lord has told them.

I truly do understand your frustration and concern. All we really can do when we don't agree is to pray for all involved and for understanding. We can try to not judge. And we need to remain obedient (that's a tough one) and sustain our leaders (another tough one when they appear to have done something we think is wrong).

When my oldest was 12 I found myself at odds with our bishop. I was so upset about it I spoke with my parents. Their counsel to me was to support my bishop. We are commanded to support and sustain our leaders. So I swallowed my pride and hard feelings and even eventually apologized to the bishop for my "thoughts." I cannot begin to describe the blessings I received from that experience. I also learned an important lesson. Even if the leader in question is wrong or gives us incorrect counsel, if we do what he asks of us we will be blessed when we are obedient.

I hope all that made sense. I am most certainly not critisizing your feelings, which are valid and I would have the same concerns in your place. Truly I've been living a soap opera the last six weeks. . . but now its over for the most part. I hope I'm still involved with this Mom and her children. They still need friends and help and most importantly, less judgement.

I'm thankful to my Heavenly Father for giving me the experiences of the last six weeks. I'm also thankful for the opportunity to help someone in serious need, even when it looked bad from the outside.

I HOPE I'm on the Lord's side and have done the right thing,

applepansy

Edited February 2, 2009 by applepansy
typos

[SweetJester]

Kinda related, however sorry for thread stealing: I rent a room in a friend's home...I am not allowed to do this as he is an unrelated male?

[Elgama]

I am sorry if this sounds harsh but as upset as you are about this situation you are not sustaining your leaders in this. I did something similar in my first year of membership over a young man taking drugs, I harrassed the poor guy and my leaders,I didn't know everything and I was sadly very wrong in my actions I was self righteous rather than righeous, tAnd I am failing to see what they have to be doing in the situation

You are assuming the situation has not been addressed and the people concerned have not prayed and used the inspiration and keys they are entitled to. You would not be privvy to conversations or interviews between the Stake President and the Bishop.

The Bishop is entitled to inspiration and instincts concerning what is best for his family and his daughter, he is more entitled to that than you are for your brother. It is perfectly possible to live in the same house as your spouse to be and never break the Law of Chastity, They have chosen to move into a situation where they will be mostly chaperoned. I know I lived in the same house (with my Mother and Brother)m as my now husband for 12 weeks before we got married, with full knowledge and blessing of his parents (both LDS in very good standing, his Dad having spent as much time serving on Stake Presidencies, District Presidencies and Bishophrics as he had not, his mother being RS President etc), my Branch President and my Stake President at the time knew. I also spent time at his house with knowledge of the proper authorities. We both still got our recommends.

Maybe the Bishop knows best way to keep these two safe is to keep em close. There is nothing the Bishop is doing right now to lose his recommend however the question about sustaining them is in there. I am willing to be Stake President and Bishop have spoken about this and Stake has decided there is no case to answer. but they will not tell you either way because its between the adults involved and their leaders, and what has gone on is rightly confidential, if you have made more than one or two phone calls then that becomes annoying and harrasing. In sustaining out leaders we tell them, maybe remind them if they have my branch presidents memory lol and then leave the matter for them to deal with. Just remember they have the keys and the revelation, and unless its something that is obviously damaging to the church itself, against THEIR temple recommend, etc then my advice would be to pray and gain a testimony of their calling

-Charley

Edited February 2, 2009 by Elgama

[Elgama]

I am sorry if this sounds harsh but as upset as you are about this situation you are not sustaining your leaders in this. And I am failing to see what they have to be doing in the situation, what they need to be doing is using the keys and inspiration they are entitled to.

You are assuming the situation has not been addressed and the people concerned have not prayed and used the inspiration and keys they are entitled to. You would not be privvy to conversations or interviews between the Stake President and the Bishop.

The Bishop is entitled to inspiration and instincts concerning what is best for his family and his daughter, he is more entitled to that than you are for your brother. It is perfectly possible to live in the same house as your spouse to be and never break the Law of Chastity, They have chosen to move into a situation where they will be mostly chaperoned. I know I lived in the same house (with my Mother and Brother)m as my now husband for 12 weeks before we got married, with full knowledge and blessing of his parents (both LDS in very good standing, his Dad having spent as much time serving on Stake Presidencies, District Presidencies and Bishophrics as he had not, his mother being RS President etc), my Branch President and my Stake President at the time knew. I also spent time at his house with knowledge of the proper authorities. We both still got our recommends.

Maybe the Bishop knows best way to keep these two safe is to keep em close. There is nothing the Bishop is doing right now to lose his recommend however the question about sustaining them is in there. The Bishop may well have had an interview explained his position and the Stake President is happy to sustain him in his position.

-Charley

[Guest SisterofJared]

TheyCallMeMom,

Your brother is living with his girlfriends FAMILY... not alone with his girlfriend, and that is 100% proper. I know of many circumstances, even some among general authorities where unmarried persons have lived with the families of their fiancees.

There may be many things that cause this to be beneficial besides the ability to take care of themselves. Perhaps the bishop feels inspired to have the young man under his wing to help teach him something. Perhaps the young couple has a financial goal, and have decided together to have your brother live there so they can save towards their goal.

I have no idea why they have decided to have him live there, but I do know that it is not improper. Also, I am puzzled as to why you have decided the leaders have failed you in this. Perhaps you might want to examine your own beliefs instead. It seems to me that you do not have a proper understanding of those guidelines on our behaviors.... where did you get the belief that it was somehow wrong for your brother to live with his girlfriend's family? I'm expecially puzzled as to why you would be so eager to condemn the bishop over it, instead of seeking to improve your own understanding of the teachings of our leaders on this. This bitterness against the bishop about this can creep in and harm your testimony.

In all events, this young man is your brother, not your son, and is an adult, and the principles of free agency dictate that your only stewardship is to love him and support him in his righteous endeavors, and not to be trying to force him to live a standard you believe... correct or incorrect. Perhaps this overstepping of stewardship is the reason your brother chose to live with the bishop's family instead of continuing to live with you. I don't know if that's true, it's just a possibility. I'm sorry if it sounds harsh, but I do believe you should consider it.

Sister of Jared

[TheyCallMeMom]

I guess as a new member I misconstrued the values of the church.. I didnt realize that unmarried couple could live together if mommy and daddy live there too.. or maybe its just that he is the Bishop.. Boy, I guess in that case we could baptize alot of new people in this area if they would just let their mom move in with them... ( both cases the couples were living with their parents)

I also didnt realize that it is ok for members of the bishopric to insult you.. I guess it in his authority, since he knows best, that if he feels that way about us come right out and say it.. whether its true or not.

you learn something new everyday..

I wonder how much other stuff I got wrong..

( I moved to another state. thats why he moved out)

[Maxel]

I guess as a new member I misconstrued the values of the church.. I didnt realize that unmarried couple could live together if mommy and daddy live there too.. or maybe its just that he is the Bishop.. Boy, I guess in that case we could baptize alot of new people in this area if they would just let their mom move in with them... ( both cases the couples were living with their parents)

I also didnt realize that it is ok for members of the bishopric to insult you.. I guess it in his authority, since he knows best, that if he feels that way about us come right out and say it.. whether its true or not.

you learn something new everyday..

I wonder how much other stuff I got wrong..

( I moved to another state. thats why he moved out)

TheyCallMeMom-

It is not okay for members of the bishopric to insult you. I remember my mom had a falling out with our bishop when I was younger. Despite my impressionable age, I can clearly remember times when the bishop said or did something distinctly rude.

D&C 121:41

41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood [or priesthood authority], only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

Link; addition mine

It is not okay for him or anyone else to insult you. They will answer to the Lord for anything they have done to offend you.

Perhaps being so worried about your brother has put you into a protective state. The fact is (apparently, I've never heard of it being done) that it's not uncommon for an espoused person to live with his/her fiance's family. The basic rule is the compliance with the law of chastity.

What does your brother say about the situation?

[Dove]

Hello, They call Me Mom,

So sorry about this experience you're going through....I've been reading the thread and I really emphathize with what you're saying....

Here are some ideas about the whole thing....

First of all, I am so glad that you are being true to your testimony, and not letting this dissuade you from your activity in the church. I have witnessed and occasion or two where I felt that a person got off from his sins because of the bias of the church leadership at that time before....One involved a relative, another involved a missionary that reminded the leader of his son.....

No, leaders are not perfect by any strectch of the imagination.....but the gospel and Church of Jesus Christ of LDS is still where the truth is at, imho.....

I think you have done what you should so far, you have voiced your dissent over the living arrangement.....You have stood as a witness for what is right...and you let them know it. I learned this on my mission, that our words will stand as a witness to people at the last day, I really believe this...It also sounds like you did it "properly." With respect and honesty, through the proper channels, etc. There is a section in the Doctrine and Covenants that counsels us how to act when in conflict with another..going to that person directly is the fist step. Then, going to the leadership about that person becomes the second if it's not resolved by the first. Now the blame is off your shoulders in the sense that you have done all that you can to express your belief on this...I assume to your brother as well.

The ball is in their court now, and they will stand accountable for their choices some day. They are all adults, and accountable in their agency.

I would suggest that you always be honest to them about your feelings on this, if it comes up again. Otherwise, at this point, go about your duties in the churce. Focus on being the best you can be now, and leave the rest in your Heavenly Father's hands. He is just, which, if what you say is correct, and they are acting in an untoward manner in this, they will be held accountable. How sad for them....

Our hearts go out to you....I can hear the bitter sorrow in your threads. I can relate to why you would feel that way. I hope our words have helped ease this

Dove

[applepansy]

I guess as a new member I misconstrued the values of the church.. I didnt realize that unmarried couple could live together if mommy and daddy live there too.. or maybe its just that he is the Bishop.. Boy, I guess in that case we could baptize alot of new people in this area if they would just let their mom move in with them... ( both cases the couples were living with their parents)

I also didnt realize that it is ok for members of the bishopric to insult you.. I guess it in his authority, since he knows best, that if he feels that way about us come right out and say it.. whether its true or not.

you learn something new everyday..

I wonder how much other stuff I got wrong..

( I moved to another state. thats why he moved out)

You have not misunderstood or misconstrued the values of the Church. It is NOT ok for two unrelated people of the opposite sex to "live together." That is very clear. However, lets define "live together." In our society that usually means two people setting up a household together without the bonds of marriage. It means breaking the laws of chastity. If that's what your brother is doing, then you have the right and obligation to speak up. You did. Its ok to remind a bishop or go to the stake president with your concerns. You did. What I was trying to point out is that sometimes there are extenuating circumstances and unless we can see through walls we shouldn't judge unrighteously.

It is the Bishop's responsibility to handle the situation after you explained your feelings. You did what you should have and now its on his shoulders. Bishop's do not have the right to be rude. However, without knowing everything here I am really hesitant to join a side. . . as I posted above. I am now in a situation where I'll be judged - right or wrong - by neighbors who might not know the whole story.

Bishops as "judges in Israel" are held to a higher standard by the Lord. They know this. Are they human? yes Do they make mistakes? Yes And if they make a mistake that affects another person and its the wrong decision they are not only held responsible for their part but the person they counseled's part too.

Without knowing the circumstances, I will say it was wrong of your Bishop to be rude. However, we have the choice to be offended or not. We have our God given agency and can choose our reaction to hurtful behavior or words. There have been a few conference talks about this very subject. This link is a great talk just give in 2008 by Elder Bednar LDS.org - Liahona Article - And Nothing Shall Offend Them

You have done your part. Do not let hurt feelings stop your testimony from growing. You have done what you should have and the responsibility is no longer on your shoulders. Let it go. Stay close to the Lord. Do not let someone's insensitivity affect your testimony.

Sincerely,

applepansy

[Hemidakota]

My husband and I have gone through the "proper channels" in regards to my UNMARRIED brother living in the same house with the Bishop and his daughter ( whom my brother is dating) . Nothing has been done about it and its been 3 months..

I have been a member of this church for less than a year.. and I have seen so much hypocrisy and inconsistency with church leaders..

really speaks poorly of the organization.. and its not in just one ward..

Its my testimony to the Gospel that keeps me here.. otherwise I would have left.

sorry if I'm whining .. I had to talk about it so I could work on letting it go..

I suspect your are greater than they; being without sin and weaknesses?

[peanutgallery]

There is nothing wrong with living with a family before marriage unless you are sharing a room and having sex. My roomate abandoned me a couple of months before my wedding and I couldn't afford to pay rent alone so my husband's family took me in. I had my own room far away from my now husband's. His father was the Bishop at the time too.

The leaders probably are not doing anything about it because nothing bad is going on.

I am not sure what the Bishop said that was an insult but he should be responding in a compassionate way and trying to help you understand since you are a new member.

[prospectmom]

It seems to me alot of judging on how things seem amd mabey not how they are. Judge not remember. Your assuming to much how sad.