Lorenzo Snow couplet

[Connie]

I remember seeing a thread discussing this, but i can't find it. Anyway, thought i'd share this i found on it.

Is President Lorenzo Snow’s oft-repeated statement—“As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be”—accepted as official doctrine by the Church?

Gerald N. Lund, “I Have a Question,” Ensign, Feb. 1982, 39–40

Gerald N. Lund, Teacher Support Consultant for the Church Education System. To my knowledge there has been no “official” pronouncement by the First Presidency declaring that President Snow’s couplet is to be accepted as doctrine. But that is not a valid criteria for determining whether or not it is doctrine.

Generally, the First Presidency issues official doctrinal declarations when there is a general misunderstanding of the doctrine on the part of many people. Therefore, the Church teaches many principles which are accepted as doctrines but which the First Presidency has seen no need to declare in an official pronouncement. This particular doctrine has been taught not only by Lorenzo Snow, fifth President of the Church, but also by others of the Brethren before and since that time.

In her biography of her brother, Eliza R. Snow explains the circumstances which led Lorenzo Snow to pen the famous couplet: “Being present at a ‘Blessing Meeting,’ in the Temple, previous to his baptism into the Church; after listening to several patriarchal blessings pronounced upon the heads of different individuals with whose history he was acquainted, and of whom he knew the Patriarch was entirely ignorant; he was struck with astonishment to hear the peculiarities of those persons positively and plainly referred to in their blessings. And, as he afterwards expressed, he was convinced that an influence, superior to human prescience, dictated the words of the one who officiated.

“The Patriarch was the father of Joseph, the Prophet. That was the first time Lorenzo had met him. After the services, they were introduced, and Father Smith said to my brother that he would soon be convinced of the truth of the latter-day work, and be baptized; and he said: ‘You will become as great as you can possibly wish—EVEN AS GREAT AS GOD, and you cannot wish to be greater.’ ” (Eliza R. Snow, Biography and Family Record of Lorenzo Snow, Salt Lake City: Deseret News Co., 1884, pp. 9–10.)

Lorenzo Snow was baptized a short time later and began his service in the Church. In the spring of 1840 he was called to serve a mission in the British Isles. Before his departure he was in the home of a Church member who was preaching a sermon on the parable of the laborers in the vineyard. (See Matt. 20:1–16.) According to Elder Snow, “While attentively listening to his explanation, the Spirit of the Lord rested mightily upon me—the eyes of my understanding were opened, and I saw as clear as the sun at noonday, with wonder and astonishment, the pathway of God and man. I formed the following couplet which expresses the revelation, as it was shown me, and explains Father Smith’s dark saying to me at a blessing meeting in the Kirtland Temple, prior to my baptism. …

“As man now is, God once was:”

“As God now is, man may be.”

“I felt this to be a sacred communication, which I related to no one except my sister Eliza, until I reached England, when in a confidential private conversation with President Brigham Young, in Manchester, I related to him this extraordinary manifestation.” (Eliza R. Snow, pp. 46–47; italics added. Brigham Young was President of the Quorum of the Twelve at the time.)

President Snow’s son LeRoi later told that the Prophet Joseph Smith confirmed the validity of the revelation Elder Snow had received: “Soon after his return from England, in January, 1843, Lorenzo Snow related to the Prophet Joseph Smith his experience in Elder Sherwood’s home. This was in a confidential interview in Nauvoo. The Prophet’s reply was: ‘Brother Snow, that is a true gospel doctrine, and it is a revelation from God to you.’ ” (LeRoi C. Snow, Improvement Era, June 1919, p. 656.)

The Prophet Joseph Smith himself publicly taught the doctrine the following year, 1844, during a funeral sermon of Elder King Follett: “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! … It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1938, pp. 345–46.)

Once the Prophet Joseph had taught the doctrine publicly, Elder Snow also felt free to publicly teach it, and it was a common theme of his teachings throughout his life. About ten years before his death, while serving as the President of the Quorum of the Twelve, President Snow incorporated his original couplet into a longer poem. He addressed the poem to the Apostle Paul, who had written the following to the Philippian Saints:

“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

“Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.” (Philip. 2:5–6.)

Part of the poem reads:

The boy, like to his father grown,

Has but attained unto his own;

To grow to sire from state of son,

Is not ’gainst Nature’s course to run.

A son of God, like God to be,

Would not be robbing Deity.

(As cited in LeRoi C. Snow, p. 661.)

Numerous sources could be cited, but one should suffice to show that this doctrine is accepted and taught by the Brethren. In an address in 1971, President Joseph Fielding Smith, then serving as President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, said:

“I think I can pay no greater tribute to [President Lorenzo Snow and Elder Erastus Snow] than to preach again that glorious doctrine which they taught and which was one of the favorite themes, particularly of President Lorenzo Snow. …

“We have been promised by the Lord that if we know how to worship, and know what we worship, we may come unto the Father in his name, and in due time receive of his fulness. We have the promise that if we keep his commandments, we shall receive of his fulness and be glorified in him as he is in the Father.

“This is a doctrine which delighted President Snow, as it does all of us. Early in his ministry he received by direct, personal revelation the knowledge that (in the Prophet Joseph Smith’s language), ‘God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens,’ and that men ‘have got to learn how to be Gods … the same as all Gods have done before.’

“After this doctrine had been taught by the Prophet, President Snow felt free to teach it also, and he summarized it in one of the best known couplets in the Church. …

“This same doctrine has of course been known to the prophets of all the ages, and President Snow wrote an excellent poetic summary of it.” (Address on Snow Day, given at Snow College, 14 May 1971, pp. 1, 3–4; italics added.)

It is clear that the teaching of President Lorenzo Snow is both acceptable and accepted doctrine in the Church today.

[pam]

Awesome. Thanks.

[Guest tomk]

Great post, Connie, and I believe it is true.

[a-train]

Precisely! LDS folks need not shy away nor be ashamed of this beautiful Gospel truth. It is biblical, it is Christian, it is true. Jesus Christ, the Great Jehovah, the Eternal God, came down from heaven and lived out the human condition on this earth just as we are now. As man now is, God once was. Proclaim it, it is the Gospel!

He now sits enthroned in yonder heavens. Having risen from the grave to immortality and Eternal life, the King of kings sits on His throne! And to what purpose did He do these things? For to raise up man to the same. His work and glory is the immortality and Eternal life of man. As He is, man may be. It is the Gospel of Jesus Christ!

We need not be embarrased by it. All of Christianity believes it. What we know that so many question is that the Father also passed through such experiences and triumphed over death to rise to immortality and Eternal life. Further, we know that the species of God and man are one and the same. Declare it boldly and happily! It is true!

-a-train

[Elphaba]

Precisely! LDS folks need not shy away nor be ashamed of this beautiful Gospel truth. It is biblical, it is Christian, it is true. Jesus Christ, the Great Jehovah, the Eternal God, came down from heaven and lived out the human condition on this earth just as we are now. As man now is, God once was. Proclaim it, it is the Gospel!

It was probably a year and a half ago when I read a post on one of the LDS blogs I visit. The poster and some other people were discussing this doctrine in their Church's foyer, when a young woman interrupted and said "As man . . . " was made up by anti-Mormons. This stunned me, as it did the members of the blog.

I think this young woman's belief the doctrine is anti-Mormon rhetoric is a result of concerted efforts by Church authorities to distance itself from the doctrine, perhaps to present the Church as more mainstream. In fact, I have always felt President Hinckley's remarks to the press that it was not taught is the one mistake he made in an otherwise exemplary tenure as the Church's president.

Obviously, as an ex-member, my input is not as important as is the Church's current member's. But, personally, this doctrine was my favorite aspect of the gospel, and I enjoyed discussing it in Church venues, as it was such an elegant belief that made perfect sense to me at the time. I think it is telling that I, the atheist, still admire that doctrine.

Elphaba

Edited February 4, 2009 by Elphaba
Because the first draft was an idiotic rant.

[Dr T]

Precisely! LDS folks need not shy away nor be ashamed of this beautiful Gospel truth. It is biblical, it is Christian, it is true. Jesus Christ, the Great Jehovah, the Eternal God, came down from heaven and lived out the human condition on this earth just as we are now. As man now is, God once was. Proclaim it, it is the Gospel!

He now sits enthroned in yonder heavens. Having risen from the grave to immortality and Eternal life, the King of kings sits on His throne! And to what purpose did He do these things? For to raise up man to the same. His work and glory is the immortality and Eternal life of man. As He is, man may be. It is the Gospel of Jesus Christ!

We need not be embarrased by it. All of Christianity believes it. What we know that so many question is that the Father also passed through such experiences and triumphed over death to rise to immortality and Eternal life. Further, we know that the species of God and man are one and the same. Declare it boldly and happily! It is true!

-a-train

A-Train, are u saying that Jesus taught that we can all become gods?

[a-train]

A-Train, are u saying that Jesus taught that we can all become gods?

No. Jesus taught: "Ye are gods". (John 10:34)

-a-train

[FunkyTown]

I am uncomfortable with this particular thread. Not because I'm ashamed of the teaching, but because we don't know what it entails. Here's John 10:30-36 as an aside:

30I and my Father are one.

31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

What does it mean to be a son? It means to be a type, an inheritor of all that he is. Does this mean that we will one day develop our own universes? That we will one day say "Let there be light"? That we will one day be worshipped?

There is no evidence that this is the case. Specifically, I would call to mind what Gordon B. Hinckley said of this very thing during an interview: "That gets into some pretty deep theology that we don't know very much about."

I feel uncomfortable because, until the Prophet clarifies this, I certainly don't feel stronger in knowledge than him. Whenever I see this particular issue come up, I hear so much speculation on something that is presented as fact that I feel we do it a disservice.

[Guest tomk]

But it has been presented as fact by a prophet of God, and also by the scriptures.

LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Lord’s Plan for Men and Women

Here is an excerpt from that talk, given by Spencer W. Kimball, a prophet of God:

In nearly every time in holy scripture where mankind is mentioned as having been created, the terms “male and female” are used. Moses said in the fifth chapter of Genesis: “In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him.” (Gen. 5:1.) And that is no idle thought either, that you and I are made in the image of God, to become gods and queens and kings eventually.

19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory.

22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.

23 But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also.

24 This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.

These are references to our becoming as God is -- having spirit children of our own and send them to an "earth" much like ours so they can be "proven herewith, to see if they will do all things which we command them."

D&C 131:1

1 IN the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;

D&C 131:2

2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];

D&C 131:3

3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.

D&C 131:4

4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.

The key here is in answering -- an increase of WHAT?

Possessions, Property -- these things will all be meaningless to us! We'll be exalted beings -- impervious to cold and hot, unable to die or be killed, immortal, no need to eat. We won't need homes or shelter.

The increase will be in seed -- children. Just as God increases in glory through us, so will we increase in glory through our children.

[livy111us]

Downplaying the King Follett Discourse - FAIRMormon

This is a must read on the subject