Need help learning to live with a loved one's mistakes

[SuperChris]

Here is somewhere I hope I can get useful advice on a situation I'm facing. For understandable reasons, neither my girlfriend or I want this to get around to people we know. Fortunately the anonymity of the internet should make it possible for me to get help on this. I'll admit, there's a lot to read here. I tend to err on the side of giving too much information when I'm looking for advice, since the more complete a picture someone has the easier it usually is to give useful advice.

To start with, I've been agnostic for most of my life, but that is in the process of changing. I have, however, maintained the values and moral compass my parents gave me as a child, as I found reasons on my own why they were worthwhile in their own right, and not just because it's what you learn in church. I considered it a compliment of the highest order when my best friend was getting sealed in the temple, and he told me that out of all his friends, I was the only one that was (aside from being agnostic) worthy enough to enter, even moreso than him in a couple ways. Now with that background information out of the way, on to my story and problem.

I've been dating my girlfriend for nearly a year now. I met her a little under a month after she had broken up with her (now ex) fiancée, and we started dating several days later. We met at a joint Young Single Adults activity between our two wards - despite being not interested in the church, I finally accepted one of the invitations I kept getting. I'm usually very awkward around people I don't know very well, and tried to force myself to have a conversation with one of the young adult leaders. My girlfriend overheard me mention one of the interests which we share, and she threw herself into the conversation. We hit it off right away; something that had never happened to me before. My luck with women, up to that point, had been nothing less than abysmal - although, I'll admit, a small portion of that had been my own intentional doing, which I'll explain later.

It didn't start to get serious until November, when I forced the issue about where our relationship was going - that I'd figured out that yes, I do love her, and that, while I wasn't sure, I did sort of hope the relationship would eventually lead to marriage. When I asked about why she was so hesitant for so long to get serious, the answer I got was that when she had broken up with him, her ex had asked for her to wait for him to make the changes in his life necessary for them to get married. One of the reasons she broke up with him is because their engagement had stretched on for years, but he had never gotten into a position where he could financially support them. She told me that if we were going to become serious, she needed to make a final decision about whether it would be him or me.

I spent the next month trying to convince her that it wasn't worth putting her life on hold to see if he would make those changes, and that if it was really important to him it wouldn't have taken him so long. As I made these arguments, I ended up falling further and further for her. At this time I also started to become convinced that there is a God - every major event in my life, as well as many minor ones, had put me in exactly the right place, at exactly the right time for this girl who is so very well suited to me to jump right at me, and with exactly the right attitude to make the relationship work.

In the middle of December she finally chose me, but that's where things got difficult. In a conversation that we had that night, I asked if she had ever had sex, thinking that the answer would be no, but asking anyway because sometimes the answer surprises you. She answered yes, and started sobbing as she told me the story of how one night two years ago, on her way to a school club, she was almost raped by a stranger. Months later, when she saw her fiancée (it had been almost a year since they'd seen each other, he's in the military), their emotions were running very high and they ended up having sex. While they tried to keep from doing it again, it ended up happening a few more times. Just because of the nature of sex, it is difficult to remove from a relationship once added, and almost always breaks the relationship when it is removed. It ended up being another part of the reason she broke up with him, months after they had screwed up for the last time. Finally, she told me that in the short period between when she broke up with her ex and meeting me, an overly pushy (ex)friend took advantage of her emotional state. When I was trying to probe just how pushy, she answered, "I wasn't raped. This would be a whole lot easier if I was."

I'm not sure how to get past this. When you decide to wait until you're married, the typically unspoken assumption is that you'll be blessed with someone else who waited as well. Before this activity, I had been attempting to date outside the church, since I believed nobody in the church would want me because I was agnostic. Of course, it is very difficult to find people who wait when they don't have a religious reason to do so. As of a few years ago I had decided that I would wait only for someone else who had waited - the small piece of intentional sabotage to my earlier love life that I mentioned before. This attitude broke when somebody I actually love told me that they hadn't.

I want to take a moment to say that this is the only challenge we have in our relationship. Overall, our relationship is still the best thing that has ever happened to me. In many ways, I feel like I've been spoiled for any relationship I could end up having in the future. I have never seen a woman as affectionate to her significant other as she is towards me. Our personalities are both easygoing enough that we've never fought or argued, and after seeing just how much sheer effort it takes to make her lose her temper, I doubt we ever will. Our interests overlap in just such a way as we always have interesting things to talk about, but also have new things to introduce each other to. Our chemistry is fantastic. People around me have commented how it's nice to see me smile, which I never really used to do. Her guilt over what happened is genuine - I've had to hold her as she's cried on more than one occasion about how dirty it makes her feel, and she is heartbroken that she won't be able to go to the temple when she gets married. She's talked to her bishop about what happened with her ex-fiancée, and I'm gently coaxing her to talk to him about the other incident - it's not a matter of not wanting to, it's a matter of getting up the courage.

It feels like the only thing that I never stopped believing was sacred - that sex should only ever be between a husband and wife - has been shattered. Also, even though it hurts, I can understand what happened between her and her ex - she was very hurt, and at that point she thought that they'd be together forever. But the one night stand is completely beyond my comprehension. There was no illusion of being together for any length of time, much less forever. And (in a sad commentary about the state of the world, when you consider how essentially non-existent my love life used to be) I'm not a virgin for lack of opportunity. It's not like I've never had to stop a situation that was beginning to go too far.

I keep praying about what I should do, and I get the feeling that I should keep working on this relationship. In fact, the subject of marriage has come up several times since, and I will admit that the idea makes me kind of happy. But I've never been very good at discerning the spirit from my own feelings. And that still doesn't help me deal with how much the situation hurts. I know the feeling is irrational, but it makes me feel like I wasn't special enough to wait for. It hurts to have the most depressing thought in my life, which I've had for years - "I waited for someone special but nobody waited for me" - to be proven true. I always waited, because it felt to me like I would be betraying her if I didn't, even though I didn't know who she was yet and even had good reason to believe she didn't exist. It feels like my heart is being ripped out every time an image pops in my head of the woman I love most making love to someone else. It kills me inside that if we do get married, I'll be the third person she's been with. It feels like even though I have the most important part of her, there will still always be that little piece missing that I can never have. And while I realize that, when you repent, it is the same to God as if you had not sinned in the first place, I am not God, and have a very hard time getting past the distinction between 'like it never happened' and 'actually never happened'. The memory, for us and everyone involved, unfortunately remains.

When she first told me, she told me that she'd understand if I wanted to walk away from the relationship right there and then. When she told me what had happened with her ex-friend, she begged me not to leave her. I'm going to follow the feeling I get and keep trying; in fact, I don't really have any inclination to leave. But something's gotta be done about this pain.

[MarginOfError]

Okay Chris, bear with me here, because I may say some things that aren't really all that comforting to you. I don't mean to be rude or insensitive, but I think you might benefit from an alternate point of view on things.

To start with, I've been agnostic for most of my life, but that is in the process of changing. I have, however, maintained the values and moral compass my parents gave me as a child, ...

I'm glad you maintained these values. I hope your parents also taught you the values of forgiveness and compassion. If you're going to get through your feelings here, you're going to need them.

In the middle of December she finally chose me, but that's where things got difficult. In a conversation that we had that night, I asked if she had ever had sex, thinking that the answer would be no, but asking anyway because sometimes the answer surprises you....

Smart of you to ask, and yes the answer can be surprising. The answer can be surprising because of the very fact that people can be driven by their emotions. Sometimes when they are driven by emotion, they do stupid things. If you can't relate to that, then you're simply not human.

I'm not sure how to get past this. When you decide to wait until you're married, the typically unspoken assumption is that you'll be blessed with someone else who waited as well....

This is a very naive assumption. It posits that your choices and actions are somehow related to the choices and actions of people we may not have met. It's akin to saying, "If I've made my bed everyday of my life, I'll be blessed with a spouse who has also made her bed every day of her life." Sounds a little preposterous, doesn't it?

As of a few years ago I had decided that I would wait only for someone else who had waited - the small piece of intentional sabotage to my earlier love life that I mentioned before. This attitude broke when somebody I actually love told me that they hadn't.

Again, faulty attitude. You're essentially basing future happiness and potential based on the past actions of a person. Oftentimes it's more important to consider how a person responds to their poor choices than whether or not poor choices were made.

I want to take a moment to say that this is the only challenge we have in our relationship. Overall, our relationship is still the best thing that has ever happened to me. In many ways, I feel like I've been spoiled for any relationship I could end up having in the future.

If this is the only challenge you have in your relationship, you're in for a rude awakening. Relationships are full of challenges. Granted, most of these challenges are more trivial than this one, but they tend to be habitual annoyances that you learn more about as you begin sharing living spaces. I just want to be sure that you realize this isn't going to be the hardest challenge you face in your relationship.

I have never seen a woman as affectionate to her significant other as she is towards me. Our personalities are both easygoing enough that we've never fought or argued, and after seeing just how much sheer effort it takes to make her lose her temper, I doubt we ever will.

She will....probably when you least expect it, like when you've bought the wrong brand of flour at the grocery store. The point is, in every relationship, you'll get to see your partner's temper. Even my wife has seen my temper, and I have probably only lost my temper twice in the past 5 years.

Her guilt over what happened is genuine - I've had to hold her as she's cried on more than one occasion about how dirty it makes her feel, and she is heartbroken that she won't be able to go to the temple when she gets married. She's talked to her bishop about what happened with her ex-fiancée, and I'm gently coaxing her to talk to him about the other incident - it's not a matter of not wanting to, it's a matter of getting up the courage.

You should be ecstatic that she feels guilt. This means that she knows she should have waited and that she wishes that she had (however, don't tell her that your ecstatic she feels guilt...that won't go over well). Unfortunately, she is having trouble coping with the guilt. She's blaming herself and judging herself extremely harshly. I have no idea where she gets the idea that she can't be married in the Temple--she can. All she needs to do is repent. I think it's time both you and her learned a little bit more about the Atonement.

It feels like the only thing that I never stopped believing was sacred - that sex should only ever be between a husband and wife - has been shattered. Also, even though it hurts, I can understand what happened between her and her ex - she was very hurt, and at that point she thought that they'd be together forever. But the one night stand is completely beyond my comprehension. There was no illusion of being together for any length of time, much less forever. And (in a sad commentary about the state of the world, when you consider how essentially non-existent my love life used to be) I'm not a virgin for lack of opportunity. It's not like I've never had to stop a situation that was beginning to go too far.

Again, people do stupid things. Look at how they respond. Frankly, I think your attitude is selfish. It exudes a type of "I'm so wonderful, but she doesn't measure up to me" haughtiness. I understand you don't intend this, but come across it does. The problem you have here is that you've made the issue about you. This shouldn't be about you at all. This should be entirely about her--not because you love her, but because she's a person, and no person deserves to feel the way she does. Prove your worth, step up to the plate, and help her obtain the forgiveness she is so very much seeking from her God.

I keep praying about what I should do, and I get the feeling that I should keep working on this relationship. In fact, the subject of marriage has come up several times since, and I will admit that the idea makes me kind of happy. But I've never been very good at discerning the spirit from my own feelings.

The solution for this is longitudinal study (study over time). Keep praying and asking about it. If the feeling persists over a long period of time, it's probably not just your emotions.

And that still doesn't help me deal with how much the situation hurts. I know the feeling is irrational, but it makes me feel like I wasn't special enough to wait for.

Again, selfishness. I'm glad you recognize it's irrational. It's emotion, and people have emotion. That's just how it is. But again, this shouldn't be about you.

When she first told me, she told me that she'd understand if I wanted to walk away from the relationship right there and then. When she told me what had happened with her ex-friend, she begged me not to leave her. I'm going to follow the feeling I get and keep trying; in fact, I don't really have any inclination to leave. But something's gotta be done about this pain.

Something does have to be done about the pain. Just keep in perspective that the pain she's feeling is at least 10 times the pain you're feeling.

The best thing you can do to start is recognize that the mistake she confessed to you has exposed a serious flaw in your character. You've built up some pretty rigid expectations and attitudes, and when those aren't met, you're hurt. That seems to lack the compassion that you're going to need to have any kind of successful interface with humanity.

You say you're praying now, so I'm going on the assumption that you've abandoned your agnosticism. Take a cue from Christ and learn about forgiveness. Learn about compassion. When you find someone has made a mistake, learn to do what he did...evaluate if they feel remorse, and if so, think as he did, "Go thy way and sin no more."

What your girlfriend did was wrong, it was tragic, and it was shameful. She knows that already, and she's suffering because of it. You don't need to add to that. What you need to do is become a better person and help her to cope with her emotions and repent. The only way to overcome the pain your feeling is to become a better person.

Again, forgive me if I was too harsh. In any case, I wish the best for you.

[pushka]

I think MOE has hit the nail on the head, you need to view this more from your girlfriend's pov, and help her in her efforts to repent and overcome her guilt.

As for the 'one night stand', you wrote:

'Finally, she told me that in the short period between when she broke up with her ex and meeting me, an overly pushy (ex)friend took advantage of her emotional state. When I was trying to probe just how pushy, she answered, "I wasn't raped. This would be a whole lot easier if I was."'

Your girlfriend mentioned that her ex friend took advantage of her at an emotional time, I would not view this the same as any old one night stand at all..she was vunerable and she was used and abused by her so-called friend..she shouldn't feel guilt over this, she just needs your reassurance that she is still loved by you, and that you won't take advantage of her as others have..

[SuperChris]

I'll make a quick reply before going to work to touch on a few things.

Okay Chris, bear with me here, because I may say some things that aren't really all that comforting to you. I don't mean to be rude or insensitive, but I think you might benefit from an alternate point of view on things.

That's alright, I did ask for help. And believe me, this has been more help than what I got from the one friend I felt comfortable talking to since he was out of state. His reply amounted to "So? No one waits."

This is a very naive assumption. It posits that your choices and actions are somehow related to the choices and actions of people we may not have met. It's akin to saying, "If I've made my bed everyday of my life, I'll be blessed with a spouse who has also made her bed every day of her life." Sounds a little preposterous, doesn't it?

It does, but I at least have observed that it is typically what a person hopes for when they themselves choose to wait.

You should be ecstatic that she feels guilt. This means that she knows she should have waited and that she wishes that she had (however, don't tell her that your ecstatic she feels guilt...that won't go over well). Unfortunately, she is having trouble coping with the guilt. She's blaming herself and judging herself extremely harshly. I have no idea where she gets the idea that she can't be married in the Temple--she can. All she needs to do is repent. I think it's time both you and her learned a little bit more about the Atonement.

I know that her feeling guilt is a good thing, and I've been trying to ease it for her as much as I can. As for the temple bit, we both do realize that it doesn't mean she never can go. Just probably not soon. The friend I mentioned at the top of my first post was married for 3 years before he was able to go.

Again, people do stupid things. Look at how they respond. Frankly, I think your attitude is selfish. It exudes a type of "I'm so wonderful, but she doesn't measure up to me" haughtiness. I understand you don't intend this, but come across it does. The problem you have here is that you've made the issue about you. This shouldn't be about you at all. This should be entirely about her--not because you love her, but because she's a person, and no person deserves to feel the way she does. Prove your worth, step up to the plate, and help her obtain the forgiveness she is so very much seeking from her God.

I've been doing everything I can to help her feel better about it. Part of the reason that I broke my expectation of what I would do in the situation so readily is because I couldn't bear even the idea of making her feel even worse about it.

Gah! Out of time. I'll be back later to finish.

[Islander]

SuperChris

Please bare in mind, when you read this, that I was not always a saint and I have been a member only 10 years or so. I believe the Atonement and baptism literally saved my soul and sanity. I am sorely acquainted with sin on account of my former life.

This is a very difficult situation for both of you and should not be underestimated. Guilt, remorse, pain and despondency are just but a few of the hurtles to overcome after sin. A transgression before marriage has a long lasting effect and consequences far beyond the indiscretion. She stretched her romance with her ex in the hope that he would step up to the plate and marry her. He did not. It is very likely she still has feelings for him but clearly there is no hope in that direction so she is moving towards you. She needs to resolve that ambivalence before she can actually move on with her life.

In your case, you have remain celibate for whatever reason and had an expectation that she would have too. Now that you are aware that she has not kept her chastity it add a level of complexity to the equation. Even if you can intellectualize the situation and attempt to continue the relationship with her, you have to be very honest and very careful you do not bury your frustration and resentment about her having premarital sex. You HAVE to resolve your feeling about this situation. The initial high and bliss of this phase will wear out and the "affection and chemistry" you are so infatuated with will subside. When reality sets in and struggles and challenges arise, your disappointment and resentment may come back. You do not want to feel or throw it on her face time after time. You do not want to think about or feel that the ex robbed you of something or that he took from your marriage something that should have belonged to you. If you can not resolve those feelings COMPLETELY, you should not move on with the relationship. It could mean dissenter.

She needs to settle this issue with her bishop and get some counseling. She needs to clear the air, avail herself of the Atonement, repent and find some internal solace and peace. You should do the same. Get your feelings out in the open thru counseling, organize your thoughts, get your bearings and see where it goes. If you can settle the issue in your heart and mind; great. Support her, help her overcome the situation, carry on and get married. If you don't, it does not make you a bad guy but simply human. It may take you a while to grasp and appreciate what people do when they (think) are in love (even kill other people as you well know) but you have to let her go then and move on with your life. She can not make up or change the situation to make you feel better.

Do not leave this to chance. If you are to be successful you will input from a pro here.

[Ivy64]

Ok, I can understand what you are going through, but as a fellow rape victim, let me explain a few things to you.

When a women is raped, it does more then just take away your agency for a period of time. It MESSES with you in wvery way. It riuns your life if you don't approach it properly. I am a great example. I don't know WHERE I would be (actually I have a good idea and it is not pleasant AT ALL) if I hadn't gone to a councelor.

Also, many assume that raped women turn into men-haters and mistrusters of most everyone. This is one reaction, but there is a more common one people aren't aware of. Rape starts your system - particularily if you had been a virgin. It takes SO much from you so really, it hightens your libido. Studies show that women who are raped are much more sexual active...

Here is my advice to you. You need to try to support and understand her. Understand that if she hadn't been raped, she probably would be saving herself for you. You know how many women are sexually abused now adays? You would be saddened by the numbers...

Perhaps the Lord has led you to her to learn something? Maybe about the atonement? You shouldn't take what she did as a personal offense, but perhaps this experience is suppose to strenghten your testimony.

But most importantly, PLEASE encourage her to to get some professional help. It took me 9 years to do....but it changed my life. I could never be where I am. Chances are she is experiencing the same things I have. The reason she is sooo affectionate, seemingly so laidback and never angry is because of this abuse. I say this because how you described her I can COMPELTLY relate to. You may not like to hear this but honestly, most of what you know about her was created by the abuse. She may be a completly different person inside...but Im sure you wills till love that, if not more...

If you get married and she doesn't deal with this issue, she will be too attached, too co-dependent and emotionally unstable to handle a mature relationship. Now I know I don't know her, justkeep in mind this is typical of rape victims, and they usally don't know these things themselves. They willdeny it becasue they want to be ok. But as a post-therapy victim, I can tell you these things are very likely. Thats why it is SO important for her to get some help so she can heal and be an emotionally-stable (even if she seems even-tempered to you...) and independent women.

But please remember, it is difficult for her to. None of us are perfect and sometimes the church standards we grow up to become so engrained, we lose sight of what is really important. Try to remember how she does feel guilty. Its not like she had a desire to be dirty and went off to do it. Trust me...abuse does this to you. There are times that I had to stop mmyself from doing crazythings, things I normally would never EVER do...it just effects you that way. This probably parallels the one night stand.

So pray. Help her and support her. I am betting this will be a wondeerful and fulfilling experience for both of you. Your relationship, if you handle this all correctly and with the aid of the spirit, will probably strengthen and deepen more then you can imagine. Put your trust in God and His will and have him guide. I KNOW you will be richer for it no matter the experience but for sure sometimes what looks like ugly situations are beautiful gardens waiting to blossom.

If she doesn't want counseling, tell her she can talk to me...im a stranger but a stranger who understands. I'd love to talk to her if she wanted. ([email protected])

Best of Luck and stay strong

[NeuroTypical]

Hi SC,

I can't do anything about your momentary emotional pain, other than to let you know that emotions are fleeting things, and you'll eventually get over them unless you force yourself to stay where you are.

Some random comments:

When you decide to wait until you're married, the typically unspoken assumption is that you'll be blessed with someone else who waited as well.

I don't know what that means. You'll be blessed with whomever you choose to pick as a mate. If you want a virgin, you need to find one. God may or may not put people in your path - but if you sit around waiting to "be blessed with someone", you might very well end up either alone, or with a bunch of shattered faith.

Of course, it is very difficult to find people who wait when they don't have a religious reason to do so.

It's also very difficult to find such people even when they do have a religious reason.

Question: I missed it in your post - are you LDS? Are you looking to Mormons as a dating pool merely because you figure you can find a virgin more easily among us? Something to think about - An LDS lady who is waiting for marriage, is most likely waiting for a guy who will take her to the temple. That means a fully believing, faithful, active LDS guy. People who join our church in order to get girls will quite often end up with unhappy or failed marriages. Just something to think about.

It feels like the only thing that I never stopped believing was sacred - that sex should only ever be between a husband and wife - has been shattered.

Here's something to consider. You say when your girlfriend told you about her experiences, she was crying. She was not happy with her experiences. Consider - this is the reaction of a person who also considers sex sacred. It obviously means a lot to her, and she's obviously not proud of her past. These are indications that she may consider sex a sacred thing, and is hurting because she's violated that sacredness. She didn't just brush the experiences off with a giggle. She didn't say things like "yeah, Bob was ok in the sack, but Jason had this weird thing he kept doing with his teeth, so I dumped him."

But I've never been very good at discerning the spirit from my own feelings.

A very valid thing to think about.

The memory, for us and everyone involved, unfortunately remains.

Also valid. Again, fleeting emotional pain will go away unless you choose to fuel the fire.

You basically have a choice - if you will only be happy with someone who waited, this girl is not for you. If you figure she is for you, you need to let some time pass and get over your emotional pain. Do NOT propose to her until you are over it. As someone else mentioned - being raped (or even nearly raped) can mess with a person's brain. Sometimes for a lifetime. Any marriage with her will work ONLY if you aren't carrying around a bunch of baggage. You need to be the supportive strong one. If you'll never be over it, it's time to break up so both of you can find someone else.

That's why people date - to find who they want to marry. It can be a painful process. Don't let pain dictate the course of action.

LM

[tanuvasamama]

Wow, this thread really hit home with me, and what I really wish is that my husband would get on here and post from his POV. What I can offer you is someone who has been in HER shoes. Long story short, I didn't wait, and he did. We have been married for 8 years now, and on occasion it still comes up.

I know that her feeling guilt is a good thing, and I've been trying to ease it for her as much as I can. As for the temple bit, we both do realize that it doesn't mean she never can go. Just probably not soon. The friend I mentioned at the top of my first post was married for 3 years before he was

able to go.

Let me just dispel this myth. If she repents typically, this isn't always, but typically, from the time she goes to the bishop, she will have to wait about a year to go to the temple. If she can keep herself temple worthy then she should be able to get sealed in the temple. This has been the case with several of my friends. In the case of my husband and I, we got married by the bishop first and a year later we were sealed in the temple, as well as others I know.

Second, the fact that she had sex before marriage had and has nothing to do with you. You ARE special enough to wait for...my husband definetly is. Me having sex before marriage had nothing to do with him. The thing is that I felt that I wasn't special enough. You have no idea what her emotional state was at the time.

If she is right for you in everyother way, than this is NOT a reason to not marry her. No offense, but that is extremely judgmental and selfish to feel that way. She is entitled to the atonement, just like anyone else. If she is truely repentant, Heavenly Father will forgive her and it will be to him as if she had never done it. Isn't that what you hope of HIM when you repent? How can you ask him to do for you what you are unwilling to do for others? Trust me, knowing how she has hurt you and that it WILL hurt you through out your marriage, that is the worst punishment imaginable. You will never be able to fully comprehend how much this pains her. That's what I tell my husband. I have been forgiven, but I still have to pay the consequences of my actions. I honestly feel that my punishment is the pain that I have caused the most important person in my life, who himself did nothing to warrent this pain. I haven't been with anyone but my husband for 9 years now, and it still brings me un-imaginable pain.

We all have mistakes in our past, some far more serious than others. You can't hold the choices she made in the past against her, even if you clearly don't understand why she would do it...even a one night stand, if she is a different person now. Honestly, you don't NEED to understand the whys, and she will never be able to give you a good enough answer as to why. That is the honest truth. You will never get a good enough why...

Really at this point you have to be real with yourself and ask if this is big enough to be a deal breaker. If it is, then you need to move on now. If it isn't a deal breaker, then you have to find a way in your heart to get past this and live with it. Don't get me wrong, this will hurt for a long time. She is hurting too. But you cannot let this be the thing that drives a wedge between you.

My husband has been in your shoes. To him, I was worth it to stay. It still hurts him and even gets brought up from time to time. Nothing will ever make it go away, but we deal with it and we are happy despite it.

I understand she is worried to go to the bishop, especially about the one night stand. Please encourage her to go. It is a hard thing to do, yes, but it will immediatly lighten this burden she has been carrying around. As someone who has been in her shoes...she is welcome to PM me if she ever needs to talk. She can get through this, she will someday be temple worthy, she will be able to have callings. I was called to RS pres of our ward only 3 years into our marriage and have held 2 stake callings and I'm only 28. It doesn't take years to be forgiven...it takes a contrite heart and sincerity, of which I'm sure she has both.

[prospectmom]

MOE said it jsut right I can't add more except to pray and pray and be quiet and listen to the promptings....

[Madriglace]

Heavenly Father is quick to forgive when we are truly repentant ... the harder part is forgiving ourselves. This is where this young sister is now. She has to forgiver herself. We are given the right to choose our path but we also have to accept the concequences of our choices, good and bad ... those we can't get away from like we can our sins.

With all due respect ... make sure you are praying for the right thing. Sometimes changing what we pray for does wonders. Maybe instead of praying to understand why you didn't get the girl you expected. Maybe pray for compassion, Christ like love and to be an instrument in His hands to help her forgive herself. Good luck

[lilered]

In cases like this I believe it wise to ask "What would Jesus do"?

In this case, I feel positive that he would advise your girlfriend to repent, and sin no more and he will forget her sins.

To you he would say, I will forgive whom I will, but you must forgive and forget.

Your girlfriend has been open and honest with you. You ask a very personal question and she gave you a very personal honest answer. if you can manage to honestly forgive her, stand by her while she goes thru the repentance process (whatever that may be as dictated by her Bishop), and grow together during this time, there is little doubt, that you both will make a great marriage couple. This is an awesome opportunity for you to stand up and be a potential loving companion and perhaps a loving husband.

Pray my friend for the Lords help.

[Misshalfway]

I don't know ..... sometimes I think it is the ones who have fallen and scraped their knees a few times or who have even weathered awful storms that make the most loving people. It really isn't what happens to us or even what we choose all the time that tells others who we are. I think it is what we do after we fall that is the real indicator of "who" we are.

None of us are getting out of this life without coming face to face with Satan and all of his tactics to take us down. Yeah....wouldn't it be great if "being a mormon" or even being "religious" meant that we wouldn't make really really big mistakes. Show me one of the greats in the list of scriptural prophets that didn't blow it at some time. Have an interview with Moses. Maybe take some time and consider Alma and his son Alma and even the Brother of Jared who was chastised for three hours by the Lord. What makes these people great is what they did after they fell (even multiple times).....a path all of us (including you) are on and we come to each part of the truth in different ways and on differing time schedules. Perhaps she needed to learn the truth about the Law of Chastity the same way you have needed to learn the lessons of faith. What if she had decided that she would only entertain men who firmly believed in God their whole lives? Where would you stand?

If your heart and mind can understand more about what this life is about and what we humans are doing here, then perhaps your heart will soften into a safe place for your sweetheart to fall. I will tell you what......I think that SHE is one of YOUR greatest gifts. It seems to me that her life experience is opening a huge mirror for you to take a good look at yourself. Her reactions to life are about her....yours are about you.

Open your heart to patience and long suffering and Christlike understanding and forgiveness. All of us are beggars....you know?

Edited February 6, 2009 by Misshalfway

[SuperChris]

Thank you, and I'm overwhelmed by the responses - I had typed up a continuance of my response in notepad at work so that I could paste that in there, but what I wrote is now grossly inadequate. I would love to answer everyone's replies point by point, but I am still at the moment constrained by time.

tanuvasamama I think one of the most helpful answers, if for no other reason than having been there on the opposite side. I want to add that, aside from the irrational feeling of worthlessness I described, I don't take it personally. I've never once been angry at her about it, and it isn't some smouldering resentment. I make it a point not to bring the subject up because I know it will just hurt her more. Whenever it has come up, I've done my best to help ease her hurt. I bought her flowers the day after she told me to try and get her to feel better, and still do whenever I feel especially down about it. Whenever she's said that she doesn't feel like she is worth my sticking around, or called herself a sl*t, I've done nothing but try and convince her otherwise, and let her know that it hurts me when she thinks of herself that way. She's asked several times if I regret that I fell in love with her, and the answer I've always given is a sincere no, I don't regret it.

I didn't mean to make it seem like the future of our relationship is going to be determined by the advice I get here. I'm not even contemplating leaving her over this. And I think I've got the forgiveness thing down - like I said, I've never once felt angry at her about it, I've done everything I can think of to make her feel better about herself, and I don't hang it over her head - I try not to even mention it. I'm just trying to get advice to get past my own hurts, or to at least vent rather than keeping it bottled up inside. If nothing else, I'd love it if there was some technique I could use to get rid of the image that, while arriving with less frequency than it did when I first found out, still shows up sometimes, of her with somebody else.

I really do appreciate the answers, and I hope I'll be able to find time to reply more specifically to them.

[Moksha]

Chris, just forgive her and get on with it. Holding this resentment does neither of you any good.

[tanuvasamama]

I've never once felt angry at her about it, I've done everything I can think of to make her feel better about herself, and I don't hang it over her head - I try not to even mention it. I'm just trying to get advice to get past my own hurts, or to at least vent rather than keeping it bottled up inside. If nothing else, I'd love it if there was some technique I could use to get rid of the image

This sounds so much like my husband. It saddens me to know that someone else knows what he's gone through. I'm so glad to know the way you are helping her through this, and it sounds like you are being everything she needs right now. I wish I could tell you a way to make the images go away. My husband as well has never been angry with me about it or hung it over my head, but even still, 8 years into our marriage, something will happen that will trigger the thoughts in his head of me and another guy. I don't know if it helps, but I can honestly tell you that although he on occassion can picture it in his head, I for one cannot remember or really even conjure up an image of me being with the man of my past. All my husband can do when the thoughts come to him, or the images come in his mind is think to himself "Not Helpful" and try to move on.

Hang in there.

[jolee65]

Dont walk away from love if you truely love her. What is a marriage with a girl that DID wait if your always going to think of her, and all the thing you had in common.

Love is excepting peoples prefections as well as there inperfections.

Your wedding nite you wont be the same either.

[SuperChris]

Ok, it may be 2 am, but I at least don't have to work tomorrow, so I've got some time. I don't think I'll touch on every point that's been made, but I'll try to cover the ones that strike me with a specific response.

Question: I missed it in your post - are you LDS? Are you looking to Mormons as a dating pool merely because you figure you can find a virgin more easily among us? Something to think about - An LDS lady who is waiting for marriage, is most likely waiting for a guy who will take her to the temple. That means a fully believing, faithful, active LDS guy. People who join our church in order to get girls will quite often end up with unhappy or failed marriages. Just something to think about.

I've always felt that changing your religion for a girl is a pretty dumb thing to do too. I was not looking at dating girls in the church as an easy way to find a virgin. I simply had been getting invited to these activities for over a year, and decided to finally go to one. I was actually expecting that I wouldn't meet anyone even particularly interesting, much less someone who would become the most serious girlfriend of my life. I just figured that I had nothing better to do that night, and if nothing else I'd get some free pizza out of it.

As for what I am right now - I'm kind of in between right now. I have a very reason oriented way of thinking, and for me even seeing is not always believing, so faith is a very difficult thing for me to do. That being said, I have for a long time wanted to believe, it's just that for me wanting to believe does not equal actually believing. In November I'd finally seen enough prayers answered that I finally said, I'm going to give believing a shot.

Here is my advice to you. You need to try to support and understand her. Understand that if she hadn't been raped, she probably would be saving herself for you. You know how many women are sexually abused now adays? You would be saddened by the numbers...

Before December, I didn't think anyone around me had been. Since then, quite a few have mentioned that it's happened to them. I'm genuinely horrified - I've always considered it the worst crime one person can commit against another.

Like I said, she was almost raped, although getting that close still did it's damage - she has had a few flashbacks in the last few weeks that I've been helping her through, since it's the same time of year that it happened and it doesn't help that I drive a similar car to the one it happened in. But I want to let you know that she went to the police that night, and then went straight into counselling.

She stretched her romance with her ex in the hope that he would step up to the plate and marry her. He did not. It is very likely she still has feelings for him but clearly there is no hope in that direction so she is moving towards you. She needs to resolve that ambivalence before she can actually move on with her life.

When she gave him the 'It's over for good' in December, he asked if they could be just friends, and she obliged. I don't have a big problem with this - I'm still good friends with an ex-girlfriend of mine, and I do remember thinking at her wedding a year and a half ago, "If I hadn't been such a bonehead, who knows? Maybe it would be me up there."

I have suggested to her that I should become friends with him, since I don't think my opinion on him can be neutral - either I like him or resent him, and since it is a choice, the former seems like a much more pleasant option. That being said, I'm not thinking their friendship will last very long. After hearing him talk on the night I met him, it seems to me that he's refusing to move on with his life - to me, this was confirmed when she said that he wasn't letting her set him up on any blind dates. She also kind of gets the sense that he's hoping things will eventually get fixed in his favor, and she has cancelled the last couple times they had planned to get together (besides the time where she was introducing him to me) because she felt very uncomfortable about it. I realize that it seems cruel to him, but I do hope that these cancellations, and seeing the two of us together when he is there, will hurt enough that he'll let it end and finally move on.

As for the counselling, I've made it absolutely clear that if we do, in fact, decide to get married, I'm going to insist on pre-marital counselling. Really, I think that's a smart thing for any couple to do.

If this is the only challenge you have in your relationship, you're in for a rude awakening. Relationships are full of challenges. Granted, most of these challenges are more trivial than this one, but they tend to be habitual annoyances that you learn more about as you begin sharing living spaces.

...

She will....probably when you least expect it, like when you've bought the wrong brand of flour at the grocery store. The point is, in every relationship, you'll get to see your partner's temper. Even my wife has seen my temper, and I have probably only lost my temper twice in the past 5 years.

I think everybody receives a rude awakening about just how difficult things can get, especially after they're married, no matter how well they prepare and try to brace for it. It's just that from the position I'm standing at now, I have no idea what could possibly get us into a real fight. And I must point out, that I said "...only issue we have in our relationship," and not "...only issue we have had in our relationship." I just didn't feel it was terribly important to include the other significant issue we have had in the post since now it's resolved and gone.

You've built up some pretty rigid expectations and attitudes, and when those aren't met, you're hurt.

I will say that making those expectations so rigid is the reason, a couple of times, that I was able to say, "This situation is spiralling out of control, it is time to stop." My expectations may have been rigid, but I expected no less of myself. But, after all, that which does not bend, breaks most easily. As I mentioned above, these expectations shattered the moment that she in particular told me. It was a very painful experience. But I can assure you that in the time since, it has been replaced with, (to use my exact words to her) "I love you enough to be able to stop, because I don't want you to feel any more regret."

And again, no, I don't think your post was too harsh.

I just want to say again that I'm not asking if I should break up with her over this. That does indeed strike me as cruel. I'm not continuing the relationship just because that's the general feeling I get when I pray about it, I'm continuing it especially because that's the general feeling I get. I expressed in my last post that I am doing everything I can to try and make her feel better about herself, and part of that means bringing this up to her as little as I possibly can. I did, after all, title the thread "Learning to live with..." - I have every intention of getting past this. What I am asking is, what can I do to get past this that does not involve simply burying it? I've gotten some useful comments about this, and I'd always appreciate more. And if nothing else, venting is a whole lot more helpful than bottling it up, since there really isn't anybody I can talk to about this - of the people who DO know, her parents are tied up dealing with the serious issues her younger brother is causing, and I can't really talk to her bishop until after she does, since it is absolutely not my place to tell him about the last piece of her story.

Again, I'd like to say I'm grateful for all the comments. I'm still overwhelmed by just how many have come in one day. And I just looked at the clock, and I spent two hours writing this post. I think I've covered everything I've meant to, for the moment. Thank you again!

[NeuroTypical]

of the people who DO know, her parents are tied up dealing with the serious issues her younger brother is causing

Something else that should be firmly in your brain as you move forward with this girl - you will FOREVER be dealing with her parents and siblings, and whatever they're doing now, they'll probably be doing 5, 10, 25 years from now.

I'm not saying it isn't worth it, just trying to help you go into this with an open mind. You remind me a lot of me 12 years ago.

LM

[Heavenguard]

I want you to realize one thing, Chris:

These past indiscretions had nothing to do with you.

I don't mean that in a "not your business" sort of manner, but these things happened before she met you - they have NO reflection of how she sees you or feels about you. I understand you're hurt by the fact that she didn't 'save herself' for you - but she didn't even know that you existed then. If she's anything at all like you say she is, you know that none of these things would ever have happened if she had you then.

You don't need to forgive her, as she never wronged you. What you need to learn is that these are things that happened in the past, and will forever stay there, as they are not a show who she is. The most important thing that needs to happen here is she needs to learn how to forgive herself (for being with her ex-fiance), and that being taken advantage of emotionally is NOT her fault in any way. (Which I suspect she knows on the mental level, being that the guy is now an ex-friend, but she may not know it on the emotional level.) I might think that couples' therapy could be an option.

[SuperChris]

Something else that should be firmly in your brain as you move forward with this girl - you will FOREVER be dealing with her parents and siblings, and whatever they're doing now, they'll probably be doing 5, 10, 25 years from now.

I'm not saying it isn't worth it, just trying to help you go into this with an open mind. You remind me a lot of me 12 years ago.

LM

'Causing' may have been the wrong word, still cleaning up the debris of the issues he caused may be better. The tragic story with him is that he was introduced to drugs on his mission, by his companion. He finished rehab a week or two ago, and appears to be clean (ok, his new addiction is World of Warcraft, which is still bad, but not as bad as before). Their hands are still full because he hasn't yet learned to re-integrate with society. This seems likely that it *will* change, it's just that it also makes getting a private moment alone with her parents difficult.

[prospectmom]

CAn I just say I think your doing just fine.... I think you will work through this and whatever happens it will happen because you really prayed , pondered and chose what is right fo you. Blessings to you always

[Art_in_Heaven]

Is it just me or did anyone else think "Troll" when they read the OP's opening post and every other post after that? Maybe I'm just too cynical......

[prospectmom]

wow didn't even think of that I hope not.... I hope your being too cynical..............

[jiminycricket]

I find some wisdom in the words of Wesley in the cult classic film The Princess Bride: "Life is pain... anyone who says differently is selling something."

At some point we have to realize that this life was never intended to be a bed of roses, that pain is an important part of the package deal we call life. Life isn't about being comfortable and avoiding pain, it's about learning how to be happy in spite of every pain of earth and hell. The interesting thing is that once we realize that at a deep level, the pain becomes not so painful after all. Then you realize that you don't have to fear pain, that you can embrace it instead, and suddenly pain becomes the refining, purifying, teaching experience it is supposed to be. Pain is a sensation - a perception. It may seem strange, but we can learn to perceive pain as a good thing.

If the Lord had known a way to try Abraham more deeply than to ask him to sacrifice his son, He would have done that. He intends to try all of us just as deeply. If we are on the right track, we should expect that we will be required to sacrifice many if not all of the things we hold most dear. The bright side is two-fold: (1) that which we invest (give up of our own will), we will receive back with interest either in this life or after it, and (2) in giving those things up, we realize that we don't need them, and that God is more important to us.

We have to learn to temper and bridle our emotions. Sometimes, that requires sacrificing emotions we feel entitled to. Jealousy, "offendedness," even fear and hurt feelings are understandable, justifiable emotions, but they are impure. Perfect faith, hope and love casteth out all these.

Chris, embrace the pain and cast out these tormenting emotions by love, hope and faith. Can you see that those negative emotions are only manifestations of a fear of pain, and that they are more harmful to you than simply sacrificing your desire for a morally perfect mate? There will be pain, but if you accept that, it won't be painful.

This is a tall order. I've understood this on some level for quite a while and I'm still not very good at practicing it. I can tell you what helps with that - Family Services' ARP program. See this thread for more info.

God bless you.

Jiminy

[SinnerMan]

Chris, I've been in a situation simular to yours. The hard part for you will be to be able to see her through her mistakes and poor use of agency. You will have to pray and fast to have your heart softened to see her as she is *after she repents* Because she will, if sincerely repented, be a new and clean woman.

The words of a Rob Thomas song come to mind;

"If I fall along the way, pick me up and dust me off. And if I get too tired to make it, be my breath so I can walk. If I need some other love then give me more than I can stand. And when my smile gets old and faded, wait around I'll smile again....and could you sympathize with my needs? I know it seems I need a lot. I started out clean but Im jaded...Please help me Im bent. Im so scared that I'll never get put back together...

Be firm with her. Let her know she must repent for her sake and the Lord's sake...but that you are willing to continue to love her and be with her *if thats what u want.* But this will only be possible if you can see her as a new person once she's repented. If you can not then it will be a very bumpy road.

May the saddest day of your future be no worse than the best day of your past.