Agency: More Info Please!


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Do you have, or have you heard of, a 'non-traditional' idea or definition of Agency?

I have seen some discussions of Agency on the internet that are different from the common "Freedom of Choice / Freedom to Choose / Free Will" type definition that seems to be the traditional meaning within the church.

Please briefly share your ideas or others you may have heard. Feel free to refer to books, articles, or link to websites as well. I'm not asking to start a debate, just to share different points of view.

Because the 'war in heaven' is a related subject (Satan sought to destroy agency), you may want to discuss that as well if it helps shed additional insights into the meaning of Agency.

I also have some POLLS which ask "What does Agency mean to you?" and "How would Satan have implement his plan?" (Unfortunately the polls only allow 4 responses, and I had 6 in mind, so I had to split the question into two parts. Read both parts, and please only select one of the options from among them. I guess you could also choose the last parenthetical option if you want to view the results for the half of the poll you do not select. You may have to go to the next poll page to find them)

Edited by Webster
Updated the POLL link
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I see agency as an inalienable attribute of human intelligence in all its stages- pre-mortality, during mortality, and post-morality. I frankly don't believe Satan could have implemented his plan to the degree that he could effectively deprive us of all our agency. Part of the reason Satan's plan would fail would be that people would still sin in some degree, yet Satan would not provide the infinite atonement that Christ did- effectively cutting all of God's children off from His presence forever.

To me, agency is the ability to choose one's thoughts, attitudes, actions, and character for oneself based on actions that originate as thoughts in our spiritual being.

References:

Free to choose life or death- Nephi 10:23

23 Therefore, cheer up your hearts, and remember that ye are free to act for yourselves—to choose the way of everlasting death or the way of eternal life.

Agency existed pre-mortality- D&C 29:36

36 ...[T]he devil... rebelled against me, [God,] saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency

Need of temptation for effective use of agency- D&C 29:39

39 And it must needs be that the devil should tempt the children of men, or they could not be agents unto themselves; for if they never should have bitter they could not know the sweet

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Moksha: I went to dictionary.com which had several dictionaries that came up. The definitions listed below are from the first dictionary that came up. Do you really want to go with the first one listed below? You can check the site and find what you mean and specifically refer to it, or perhaps pick your favorite(s) from those listed below (please rank them in order if you choose to pick multiples); otherwise, I have no idea what you're referring to.

1. an organization, company, or bureau that provides some service for another: a welfare agency.

2. a company having a franchise to represent another.

3. a governmental bureau, or an office that represents it.

4. the place of business of an agent.

5. Indian agency.

6. an administrative division of a government.

7. the duty or function of an agent.

8. the relationship between a principal and his or her agent.

9. the state of being in action or of exerting power; operation: the agency of Providence.

10. a means of exerting power or influence; instrumentality: nominated by the agency of friends.

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agency

Merriam Webster Dictionary

1 a: the office or function of an agent b: the relationship between a principal and that person's agent 2: the capacity, condition, or state of acting or of exerting power :

Webster's Dictionary

1. An administrative unit of government; "the Central Intelligence Agency"; "the Census Bureau"; "Office of Management and Budget"; "Tennessee Valley Authority".

Oxford Dictionary:

1 an organization providing a particular service. 2 a government office or department providing a specific service. 3 action or intervention to produce a particular result.

###

Of these I think the Merriam Webster definition fits in best, since if anything Satan would throw in with the CIA rather than be in opposition to them. Who knows what the English and their Oxford Dictionary are thinking.

:)

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I don't know how traditional or non-traditional the following are, but they are correct and factual aspects of agency:

* You can have your agency taken away from you without your consent.

* You can lose your agency through ignorance.

* For some people who have lost their agency, it is possible for other people to help them get it back.

* Agency does not mean you can chose your consequence. It doesn't even mean you know what the consequences are when you chose your behavior.

* Consequenses to using your agency may have eternal reach and be just and righteous, but here on earth, the response to someone using their agency may be very unjust and unrighteous.

* Agency can be gained/lost in degrees. It's not automatically an all or nothing proposition. (No matter what your parents may have told you.)

LM

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Loudmouth: I've heard your bottom three points in some form or another before, but your top three catch me a bit off guard. Would you care to add more info about those points?

Also, can you define or describe the idea of agency as you have talked about it? Is it some sort of control over you own life?

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This talk has some great ideas about agency.

http://emp.byui.edu/SATTERFIELDB/Talks/ObedienceBKP.htm

A distinguishing characteristic of the Church organization lies in its balance of authority and individual rights. Priesthood is a brotherhood, and in its operation the highest capacities of man-his capacity to act as a free agent and his capacity to be spiritual-must be respected and enlarged. Leaders invite, persuade, encourage, and recommend in a spirit of gentleness and meekness. Members respond freely as the Spirit guides. Only this kind of response has moral value. An act is moral only if it expresses the character and disposition of the person, that is. if it arises out of knowledge, faith, love, or religious intent. Fear and force have no place in the kingdom bemuse they do not produce moral actions and are contrary to God's gift of free agency. (General Handbook of Instructions. 1963.)

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Thanks for all who have reponded so far, but remember the main idea of this forum post is "Do you have, or have you heard of, a 'non-traditional' idea or definition of Agency?"

Please review comment #1 for the full question and idea, also there is a link to some polls if you're interested.

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Do you have, or have you heard of, a 'non-traditional' idea or definition of Agency?

I have seen some discussions of Agency on the internet that are different from the common "Freedom of Choice / Freedom to Choose / Free Will" type definition that seems to be the traditional meaning within the church.

Please briefly share your ideas or others you may have heard. Feel free to refer to books, articles, or link to websites as well. I'm not asking to start a debate, just to share different points of view.

Because the 'war in heaven' is a related subject (Satan sought to destroy agency), you may want to discuss that as well if it helps shed additional insights into the meaning of Agency.

I also have some POLLS which ask "What does Agency mean to you?" and "How would Satan have implement his plan?" (Unfortunately the polls only allow 4 responses, and I had 6 in mind, so I had to split the question into two parts. Read both parts, and please only select one of the options from among them. I guess you could also choose the last parenthetical option if you want to view the results for the half of the poll you do not select. You may have to go to the next poll page to find them)

So much is wrapped-up in Agency. I think we scarcely know how important it is.

Heavenly Father lost 1/3 of his children because Agency could not be given-up (as Lucifer suggested).

Those 1/3 chose NOT to continue on with the Plan of Salvation designed by Father. And Father had no choice but to let them lead. They were cast-out -- but not like we sometimes think. They HAD to leave, because the Plan of Salvation, for them, had ground to a halt. They chose not to get bodies or participate in the test of mortality. Eternal Law demands that their progression STOPS...and it has.

God is powerful - but even God must obey eternal law. Eternal law is the way the universe works. These intelligences ... they are so tiny ... smaller than atoms ... the building blocks of everything. There is a part which acts and a part which is acted upon. That which acts is intelligence. It is the intelligences of the universe that make things work the way they do. Our spirits are organized intelligences. We are free to act. Free to choose. God cannot, WILL NOT, interfere with our choices.

He got to where He is through His obedience to eternal law. And He is bound to it. He Himself must abide by it. The commandments He gives are nothing more than what is needed in order to have what He has. He wants us to have what He has and has told us what is needful in order to obtain it. The choice is ours.

There is a fantastic talk by Cleon Skousen that discusses all of this. Check it out:

Not Left Comfortless: Skousen Talk

Tom

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Also, can you define or describe the idea of agency as you have talked about it? Is it some sort of control over you own life?

Well, it's as close as I can come to the church's definition, as found in the Gospel Principles manual, chapter 4 Freedom to Choose. Basically, Agency is the eternal principle wherein we are allowed to chose for ourselves to follow God or Satan.

Loudmouth: I've heard your bottom three points in some form or another before, but your top three catch me a bit off guard. Would you care to add more info about those points?

Sure thing. Basically, agency requires there be a choice possible. So, things that remove one or the other choices, or removes the possibility of a choice at all, remove agency. Mind-altering or mind-damaging drugs, especially when addictive, remove agency. Some drugs posess such strong addictive properties that escaping the addiction is not possible by ones self. It doesn't matter how much you understand the evil of the drug - your addiction makes it impossible to do anything other than obtain and ingest more of it.

Example: being kidnapped and given crack cocaine by force, and kept in an environment where it is readily available, will remove your agency against your will. And an intervention involving forced rehabilitive therapy would be an example of someone else helping someone regain lost agency. I've heard that in some cases with some drugs, doctors may keep someone sedated and asleep for a period of weeks so a person can 'sleep through' the pains of rehab that might otherwise traumatize or even kill the patient.

Also some of the worse types of prolonged traumas (especially when experienced during formative years) can remove agency by removing the ability to choose. Brains can develop abnormal pathways that alter reactions. An example would be someone experiencing incest or other intense sexual trauma during the brain's formative years (birth through teen years), who in later years becomes an automoton in some ways, in the grips of uncontrollable reactions which spring into play when triggered by something like a smell or certain situation.

We don't like to think that our ability to choose good from evil could be taken away from us against our will, or by making an ignorant mistake, or that we might be dependent on someone else to get agency back. But all these can (and do) happen.

Does this help?

LM

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There is another word used in scripture that seems to be synonomous to agency, or at least seems to be a prerequisite for having agency. It also seems to be a prerequisite for the ability to have offspring, as stated below, which I don't think we truly understand the full importance of:

Genesis 1:

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

www.m-w.com (Webster's Dictionary)

Main Entry: do·min·ion

Function: noun

1: domain

2: supreme authority : sovereignty

3plural : an order of angels — see celestial hierarchy

4often capitalized : a self-governing nation of the Commonwealth of Nations other than the United Kingdom that acknowledges the British monarch as chief of state

5: absolute ownership

I believe the hilighted definitions are what is meant in Genesis.

The question, or rather the answer to the question, "How does agency also mean dominion?" holds a key to understanding agency.

Unless one is given complete ownership or authority, there really can be no complete responsibility. This is why you will not have success by putting 2 or more people ultimately in charge of the same thing.

Our agency comes with complete ownership, and sovereignty, over the things given to us by God. They are ours to do with as we please.

Now, the answer, which I said holds the key, is that those things we are given total control over, or dominion over, must be returned to Him. Not only are they to be returned to Him, but added upon before we do.

This is our agency. We can do this if we choose. If we choose to keep anything, or in other words, if we choose to not give up anything (or hide it from Him), then we become bound to it according to the lust or desire of the flesh which we had for it. So, essentially, we are given what we want.

The ultimate expression of this is our will, or our desires. Our will, or ability to choose and act, is freely given to us and must be freely returned to Him. We must give up our desires, and desire the things of God. This is the whole reason we were given dominion and then agency.

We are free to choose.

Edited by Justice
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For those not really following me, I'm speaking primarily about children or offspring. Our offspring are the most important thing we are given dominion over. And, as Enos teaches us, it's not just our offspring, but extends to all of God's children. We must do all we can to perfect ourselves (by giving up our will) and then helping others to do the same.

This is found plainly in the mission of the Church:

Bring Souls Unto Christ

A. Proclaim the Gospel

B. Perfect the Saints

C. Redeem the Dead

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I don't know how traditional or non-traditional the following are, but they are correct and factual aspects of agency:

* You can have your agency taken away from you without your consent.

* You can lose your agency through ignorance.

* For some people who have lost their agency, it is possible for other people to help them get it back.

* Agency does not mean you can chose your consequence. It doesn't even mean you know what the consequences are when you chose your behavior.

* Consequenses to using your agency may have eternal reach and be just and righteous, but here on earth, the response to someone using their agency may be very unjust and unrighteous.

* Agency can be gained/lost in degrees. It's not automatically an all or nothing proposition. (No matter what your parents may have told you.)

LM

LM,

Are you talking about agency or freedom? Our agency is never gone. Victor Fankl proved that. While freedom fits every one of your points.

Example: being kidnapped and given crack cocaine by force, and kept in an environment where it is readily available, will remove your agency against your will. And an intervention involving forced rehabilitive therapy would be an example of someone else helping someone regain lost agency. I've heard that in some cases with some drugs, doctors may keep someone sedated and asleep for a period of weeks so a person can 'sleep through' the pains of rehab that might otherwise traumatize or even kill the patient.

Also some of the worse types of prolonged traumas (especially when experienced during formative years) can remove agency by removing the ability to choose. Brains can develop abnormal pathways that alter reactions. An example would be someone experiencing incest or other intense sexual trauma during the brain's formative years (birth through teen years), who in later years becomes an automoton in some ways, in the grips of uncontrollable reactions which spring into play when triggered by something like a smell or certain situation.

We don't like to think that our ability to choose good from evil could be taken away from us against our will, or by making an ignorant mistake, or that we might be dependent on someone else to get agency back. But all these can (and do) happen.

I understand what you're saying. I've witnessed people exercise their agency in these situations and dig themselves out of the hole someone else dug for them. I believe that means we even have our agency after circumstances you describe.

I would also like to point out that "free agency" is not referred to in the standard works. It was not until recent (relatively speaking) conferences that "free agency" was used.

Moral agency is more accurate. I did a talk on Agency once. After reading scriptures and conference talks and the dictionary I came up with the following definition:

Moral Agency (to me) means we have the ability to choose in all circumstances what our action or reaction will be, but we also have the moral obligation to choose right over wrong.

applepansy

P.S. What "alternative" definitions are you talking about?

Edited by applepansy
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Justice:

So it sounds to me that Agency + Dominion = Stewardship in a way. Like the parable with the stewards that are each given some coins. They have full authority over them until their lord returns, then they have to give them back and account for what they did with them. I'm I getting the picture?

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Are you talking about agency or freedom? Our agency is never gone. Victor Fankl proved that.

Well, Victor proved that as long as there is a choice to be made, you can chose good - even if it's in the depths of a Nazi concentration camp. But I thought Victor used the phrase "Man's last ultimate freedom".

Agency requires a choice. No choice, no agency.

I've witnessed people exercise their agency in these situations and dig themselves out of the hole someone else dug for them. I believe that means we even have our agency after circumstances you describe.

I don't think you and I are thinking about the same situations. I'm not talking about a mere drug with addictive properties. I'm talking about drugs or traumas which alter brain pathways, which cause permanent damage, which turn off higher brain functions and leave the person only able to react in limited ways to external stimulus. What I'm talking about is pretty rare compared to the large numbers of drugs and traumas out there. Surely, for every one person I'm talking about, there are a thousand people who merely claim their agency is gone as a way of ducking responsibility. But they're out there.

I would also like to point out that "free agency" is not referred to in the standard works. It was not until recent (relatively speaking) conferences that "free agency" was used.

Very true. I can't find the quote, but a church leader has more recently specifically clarified that the "free" is a word that causes confusion and shouldn't really be used. You're absolutely right - moral agency is more accurate.

After reading scriptures and conference talks and the dictionary I came up with the following definition:

Moral Agency (to me) means we have the ability to choose in all circumstances what our action or reaction will be, but we also have the moral obligation to choose right over wrong.

I think that's a very good definition, except I still maintain that the word "all" doesn't belong. I'll take "most", or "in just about every", or even "in all circumstances that you or I are likely to ever be in", but not just a blanket "all".

Good discussion!

LM

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Justice:

So it sounds to me that Agency + Dominion = Stewardship in a way. Like the parable with the stewards that are each given some coins. They have full authority over them until their lord returns, then they have to give them back and account for what they did with them. I'm I getting the picture?

Exactly.

I don't believe one can truly have agency unless they are given complete autonomy over all that they will be judged for. So, as a necessity, God gave us dominion even before we had the knowledge of good and evil, so that once we gained that knowledge, we could exercise the agency freely, and be given just consequences.

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For any just joining in, the main idea of this thread is "Do you have, or have you heard of, a 'non-traditional' idea or definition of Agency?" (Please review comment #1 for the full question and idea. Also there is a link to some polls if you're interested.)

Did you know that the traditional 'Mormon' definition of Agency [freedom to choose] is NOT in standard dictionary definitions? (By the way, if anyone can find a mainstream dictionary or thesarus that ties Agency or Agents to either the ideas of Freedom or Choice, please show me. I'd love to see it!)

I do believe in free will and the freedom to choose. The principles that are commonly talked about when discussing Agency are correct. But I am also interested in those points of view that see Agency in a slightly different, or non-traditional manner.

I have especially been interested in the comments made so far where people have seen Agency more in line with what the dictionary says. I think that is a very interesting view.

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