re: Mormons & Evangelicals Together - Convicted Civility

[prisonchaplain]

This is about 10 minutes and describes a growing friendship between a BYU dean and an evangelical leader...and the good that's come out of their pursuit of friendship and "convicted civility."

YouTube - Standing Together: Is Anybody Listening?

[Maxel]

Ugh, I would love to watch this but my computer blocks YouTube... Can anyone find an article, or describe it for me?

That, or I can watch it at school on Wednesday...

[prisonchaplain]

You'll want to see it, but you might google Greg Johnson Robert Millet under videos, and see if some non-youtube versions are available. I actually found the two-hour program of Ravi Zacharias preaching from the pulpit of the Tabernacle through a Standing Together (the name of Johnson's evangelical "be friendly to LDS" group).

Here's another version of the OP video: http://www.standingtogether.org/images/isanybodylisteninWINDOWS.wmv

Edited February 10, 2009 by prisonchaplain
Add link

[applepansy]

PC Thank you for posting this. I have always loved Bro. Millett.

applepansy

[Guest ceeboo]

Thanks PC :)

VERY ENCOURAGING :):)

A GREAT example to us ALL ( IMHO :) )

Peace,

Ceeboo

[prisonchaplain]

Ceeboo, there's an interesting history of Catholic-Pentecostal dialogue too. Some of my professors were in on them, and said they were always enjoyable. Part of the theory was that, unlike the ecumenical ones between Catholics and Lutherans, there was no intent to hammer out differences and reconcile organizationally with Pentecostals--so no "politics." Rather, the conversations were about theology, liturgy, and of course, "What's up with our Charismatic Catholics anyway...why are they doing such and such?"

That conversation was pioneered back in the 1950s/60s by David DuPlessis. It was a different era, though. His friendliness to Catholic theologians trying to understand pentecostalism, led to censure. For a little over 10 years DuPlessis was stripped of his ministerial credentials. Eventually, though--I believe in the early 1970s--those credentials were restored, along with an official apology. It's hard for a movement to grow up, but, praise God, we're making it! :-)

[NeuroTypical]

Yeah, I've buddied up with a lady at our local mega-church who practices "convicted civility". She's a very nice person who went out of her way to allow for the possibility that President Hinckley didn't go to Hell when he died.

When we put that theory to practice, she translated "convicted civility" as "I'm the nicest person you'll ever meet, but I refuse to debate with you, or even seriously consider your point of view." She let me come to a few of her "are mormons christians" class. After I opened my mouth to present an alternate viewpoint to what she was teaching, I was disinvited.

Our good PrisonChaplain here has been much more willing to discuss and learn than other practicers of convicted civility.

[prisonchaplain]

Loudmouth...I'm convinced we fail in these conversations, relationships, civility efforts, because we try to convert people, rather than allowing our example, our testimony, and the gentle wooing of the Holy Spirit do the work. More often then not, God is saying, "Relax and see my glory!" Ah, but it's more fun if I talked 'em into it! LOL

[AngelLynn]

My mom was nervous to mention that she was LDS/Mormon to reletives in Lousiana. As she knew there was not a lot of civility down in the south towards the LDS faith. This went on for about ten years and my mom's conversations with her aunt and cousins in Lousiana was filled with reasurances of faith and of God. Then one day my aunt asked my mom on the phone what faith she was and my mom told her that she was LDS. Her aunt acted shocked on the other end but said nothing more. I am not really sure what was going through her aunt's mind but it was probably shock that we had more in common than she had realized.

[Book_of_Mormon_Warrior]

This is about 10 minutes and describes a growing friendship between a BYU dean and an evangelical leader...and the good that's come out of their pursuit of friendship and "convicted civility."

YouTube - Standing Together: Is Anybody Listening?

You know I almost fell for this (nothing against you PC, just "Standing Together). As I said, I almost fell for this, until I clicked on "Recommended Readings" under the "Resources" tab, and what do I find? A link to "Living Hope Ministries", producers of the drivel known as "The Bible vs. the Book of Mormon" and other assorted anti-Mormon garbage. I think some LDS are too eager to be accepted by the evangelical community and will latch on to any ray of hope.

[prisonchaplain]

Warrior...just what is it that you believe Robert Millet (the BYU dean) fell for?

[AngelLynn]

You know I almost fell for this (nothing against you PC, just "Standing Together). As I said, I almost fell for this, until I clicked on "Recommended Readings" under the "Resources" tab, and what do I find? A link to "Living Hope Ministries", producers of the drivel known as "The Bible vs. the Book of Mormon" and other assorted anti-Mormon garbage. I think some LDS are too eager to be accepted by the evangelical community and will latch on to any ray of hope.

I truely believe there are some people that are sincere in their hearts about having convicted civility, Warrior. This forum is proof of it. Another example of it was when the Catholics rose in defense of the LDS church in the backlash that followed Prop. 8. While the Catholic church admited there were doctrinal issues that divided us, they showed on this issue we held common ground.

I don't believe Evengelicals will change overnight on how they see or believe our faith is. I've been looking up on it and it appears that Rev. Gregory Johnson has taken some flack from Evengelicals because of his position of being inclusive to LDS. Do I expect Evengelicals to accept us right off? No. As years of Anti-Mormon literature and Anti-Mormon teachings have overwhelmed them which is why we need this discourse to attempt to understand each other.

I can understand the need from all sides to find common ground as we are all God's children and eventually we will have to stand before Him and be accountable for how we treated our fellow brothers and sisters.

[Book_of_Mormon_Warrior]

Warrior...just what is it that you believe Robert Millet (the BYU dean) fell for?

You don't need to give me his credentials, I know who Mr. Millet is. I think Mr. Millet may have fell for a very devious attempt, not to convert him, but to use him as a tool for converting other Mormons.

If you go to the "Standing Together Ministries" website and go to the "Resources" tab, and click on "Recommended Readings", the prominent link at the bottom is "Living Hope Ministries". "Living Hope Ministries" is very much an anti-Mormon fellowship based out of Brigham City, Ut. If "Standing Together" was about respectful interfaith dialogue why would they recommend the site of a church that champions itself on being "anti-cult"?

[Book_of_Mormon_Warrior]

I truely believe there are some people that are sincere in their hearts about having convicted civility, Warrior. This forum is proof of it. Another example of it was when the Catholics rose in defense of the LDS church in the backlash that followed Prop. 8. While the Catholic church admited there were doctrinal issues that divided us, they showed on this issue we held common ground.

I don't believe Evengelicals will change overnight on how they see or believe our faith is. I've been looking up on it and it appears that Rev. Gregory Johnson has taken some flack from Evengelicals because of his position of being inclusive to LDS. Do I expect Evengelicals to accept us right off? No. As years of Anti-Mormon literature and Anti-Mormon teachings have overwhelmed them which is why we need this discourse to attempt to understand each other.

I can understand the need from all sides to find common ground as we are all God's children and eventually we will have to stand before Him and be accountable for how we treated our fellow brothers and sisters.

I do understand that there are Evangelicals that are respectful and do want real civil dialogue. I am just suspect of the "Standing Together Ministries" motives, for the reason I detailed in my reply to PC. Why is it so important that Evangelicals or anyone "accept" you anyways?

[AngelLynn]

I do understand that there are Evangelicals that are respectful and do want real civil dialogue. I am just suspect of the "Standing Together Ministries" motives, for the reason I detailed in my reply to PC. Why is it so important that Evangelicals or anyone "accept" you anyways?

I am not really careing if they accept me or not, BW. I do think some understanding should be met. You're probably right in some ways as I am remembering JSH 1:6

6 For, notwithstanding the great love which the converts to these different faiths expressed at the time of their conversion, and the great zeal manifested by the respective clergy, who were active in getting up and promoting this extraordinary scene of religious feeling, in order to have everybody converted, as they were pleased to call it, let them join what sect they pleased; yet when the converts began to file off, some to one party and some to another, it was seen that the seemingly good feelings of both the priests and the converts were more pretended than real; for a scene of great confusion and bad feeling ensued—priest contending against priest, and convert against convert; so that all their good feelings one for another, if they ever had any, were entirely lost in a strife of words and a contest about opinions.

I have no idea if Rev. Gregory Johnson is being sincere. I hope he is and that his friendship with Robert Millet is truely geuine.

And I looked up the link you pointed out. Short of saying I don't know truely what anyones true intentions are. I do understand that you believe that Robert Millet is being taken advantage of and that is possibly true as well. Anything is possible. It is just part me thinks that we shouldn't throw out everything with the dishwater.

Edited February 11, 2009 by AngelLynn

[prisonchaplain]

You don't need to give me his credentials, I know who Mr. Millet is. I think Mr. Millet may have fell for a very devious attempt, not to convert him, but to use him as a tool for converting other Mormons.

If you go to the "Standing Together Ministries" website and go to the "Resources" tab, and click on "Recommended Readings", the prominent link at the bottom is "Living Hope Ministries". "Living Hope Ministries" is very much an anti-Mormon fellowship based out of Brigham City, Ut. If "Standing Together" was about respectful interfaith dialogue why would they recommend the site of a church that champions itself on being "anti-cult"?

Oh, I think Rev. Johnson would be thrilled if Millet converted to evangelical Christianity. Likewise, Millet would be honored to baptize Johnson into the restored gospel. Convicted civility is not a renunciation of cross-evangelization.

Mormons (especially missionaries) will continue to knock on evangelical doors, and if given an opening, introduce the householders to your faith. Likewise, evangelicals, from dialogue-conversers like myself, to the most "fire and brimstone" street preachers that harrass your conventioners, will continue to welcome conversions to our churches.

IMHO, the foundation of convicted civility is that we should talk and listen to each other openly and with Christian love. We should trust the Holy spirit to do the convicting and converting. If we're confident in our faith, our "salt" will be the saltiest, and our "light" will be the brightest, and we don't have to shout, become angry or defensive.

I don't believe Millet fell for anything. He found a friend in the evangelical movement. Johnson may still hope to see some converts from the LDS faith, but if, in the process, he denounces the lies, rudeness, hatred and obnoxiousness of the worst evangelical proselytizers, and if he upholds that article of your faith that says regardless of my desire to convert someone, I will allow them to worship according to the dictates of their conscience, then my guess is most of the "fruit" of his efforts at conversion will be that which has already fallen from the vine anyway.

[NeuroTypical]

And if we're going to inquire about Millet falling for something, we should also ask who pulled the wool over our church leader's eyes such that they allowed Ravi Zacharias to preach to us in our own tabernacle.

BoMWarrior, of course Standing Together disagrees with us, and agrees with many of our critics. They're not pretending otherwise, as far as I can tell. The deal is, if we can get together with our critics and learn about each other, we're better off than if we sit there and believe they're our enemies.

Yeah, the lady at a nearby mega-church was struggling with the concept of convicted civility as she taught uncharitable and sensationalistic things in her 'are mormons christian' class. But if she was to follow the precepts PC is talking about, maybe she'd invite a mormon to come present something at her next class.

I think they call such things "interfaith dialogue". Mormons as a whole stink at it, and we have ever since the gospel was restored. It's not all our fault, much of the rest of Christianity reacts to mormons like a vampire seeing a cross. It looks like BoM warrior is sort of their mirror image, and that's a shame. Millet has the right idea.

LM

[AngelLynn]

I think they call such things "interfaith dialogue". Mormons as a whole stink at it, and we have ever since the gospel was restored. It's not all our fault, much of the rest of Christianity reacts to mormons like a vampire seeing a cross.

LM

Well it's a little hard to be good at it when the LDS past has been filled with such violence and vengence.

However, we are in a more peaceful time and it seems that people now resort to words rather than blows. Although spending a lot of time learning how to write in writing classes I can easily say that words can cause just as much damage and can be even worse than a gun. A gun kills and maims but words can leave a lasting impression on a soul.

The mission hasn't changed, both are out to convert souls to Christ. I truely belive that President Obama's words are correct about what he said about not having one's hand clenched in a fist and having it open instead.

The sprit is so much more open on both sides if we stop having contention with each other and having an open dialogue with each other.

Edited February 11, 2009 by AngelLynn

[Islander]

I think LDS have in general more tolerance and genuine acceptance of other faiths. It rarely works in reverse. We embrace knowledge and insight and we acknowledge that truth belongs to God and he reveals a portion to all that seek him. We engage Muslim and Jewish scholars, researchers of all persuasions in vast number of disciplines. We simply are not afraid of knowledge.

I have relatives from other denominations and I have been married for a decade and they still harass me now and again, even behind my back. They have nothing bad to say but they still speculate about my "other wives" and that it can not be true that I do not beat my wife with a stick, scream at her now and again and slap her around for going over her allowance...you know, the typical stuff.

They no longer say anything to me about hell but they remind my wife time and again.

[Book_of_Mormon_Warrior]

Oh, I think Rev. Johnson would be thrilled if Millet converted to evangelical Christianity. Likewise, Millet would be honored to baptize Johnson into the restored gospel. Convicted civility is not a renunciation of cross-evangelization.

Mormons (especially missionaries) will continue to knock on evangelical doors, and if given an opening, introduce the householders to your faith. Likewise, evangelicals, from dialogue-conversers like myself, to the most "fire and brimstone" street preachers that harrass your conventioners, will continue to welcome conversions to our churches.

IMHO, the foundation of convicted civility is that we should talk and listen to each other openly and with Christian love. We should trust the Holy spirit to do the convicting and converting. If we're confident in our faith, our "salt" will be the saltiest, and our "light" will be the brightest, and we don't have to shout, become angry or defensive.

I don't believe Millet fell for anything. He found a friend in the evangelical movement. Johnson may still hope to see some converts from the LDS faith, but if, in the process, he denounces the lies, rudeness, hatred and obnoxiousness of the worst evangelical proselytizers, and if he upholds that article of your faith that says regardless of my desire to convert someone, I will allow them to worship according to the dictates of their conscience, then my guess is most of the "fruit" of his efforts at conversion will be that which has already fallen from the vine anyway.

By placing "Living Hope Ministries" as a recommended website Pastor Johnson is engaging in double-speak... saying he denounces hate-filled diatribes against Mormons while lending support to a group that engages in such activity through their video productions.

[Book_of_Mormon_Warrior]

And if we're going to inquire about Millet falling for something, we should also ask who pulled the wool over our church leader's eyes such that they allowed Ravi Zacharias to preach to us in our own tabernacle.

BoMWarrior, of course Standing Together disagrees with us, and agrees with many of our critics. They're not pretending otherwise, as far as I can tell. The deal is, if we can get together with our critics and learn about each other, we're better off than if we sit there and believe they're our enemies.

Yeah, the lady at a nearby mega-church was struggling with the concept of convicted civility as she taught uncharitable and sensationalistic things in her 'are mormons christian' class. But if she was to follow the precepts PC is talking about, maybe she'd invite a mormon to come present something at her next class.

I think they call such things "interfaith dialogue". Mormons as a whole stink at it, and we have ever since the gospel was restored. It's not all our fault, much of the rest of Christianity reacts to mormons like a vampire seeing a cross. It looks like BoM warrior is sort of their mirror image, and that's a shame. Millet has the right idea.

LM

Actually you don't know me very well. I am fine with Evangelicals who truly wish to be civil and have civil discussions. I have my doubts about "Standing Together Ministries" because of the reason I have outlined 3 times. I have noticed that people are addressing how they perceive me and are not addressing my question... Why would a Evangelical Christian who claims to want respectful dialogue between Christians and Mormons sponsor a website of a Christian church with exactly the opposite agenda?

So this time everybody, instead of going after me a my supposed "attitude" why not address my point?

[NeuroTypical]

So this time everybody, instead of going after me a my supposed "attitude" why not address my point?

Fair enough.

Why would a Evangelical Christian who claims to want respectful dialogue between Christians and Mormons sponsor a website of a Christian church with exactly the opposite agenda?

Having a link on your website isn't the same thing as "sponsoring a website". Your premise is flawed. It's not a valid question.

So, you want to change your complaint to "why would they link to a site with the opposite agenda they claim to have?" I'd suggest they would answer something along the lines of "what part of 'respectful dialogue' means we have to give up our convictions or our efforts to save you"?

At the end of the day, BoMW, you can have respectful dialogue and be wrong. You can have it and be waaaay wrong. You can have it and have messed up uncharitable ideas about the other guy. So again, your premise is flawed. Just because they think we're wrong, and set out to prove it, doesn't mean they can't have respectful dialogue with us.

LM

[prisonchaplain]

Warrior, the disadvantage I have is that I've not visited the Living Hope site. I'm wondering if it is truly malicious, or if it is merely guilty of lacking grace, tact, and perhaps mature theology? If the site is along the lines of those street preachers who desecrate sacred garments or the BoM, then your point is quite strong. If they are more along the lines of say Walter Martin (not kind, perhaps not fair, probably uneven in research ability), then your point is understandable, but I'd agree with LoudMouth.

At the end of the day, if a leader of another faith says to me, "Let's discuss faith with civility and honesty," I'm going to at least give him/her the time of day.

[Rico]

I am going to be honest. I have a huge disdain for so called evangelical Christians. In my opinion they are neither. Unfortunately, our church tells me that I shouldn't feel this way and while I know it's wrong, I am still working on it.

Through the Church, I have learned to be more accepting and loving towards our Muslim brothers, our Buddhist brothers, our Catholic brothers, but I am just not in a stage in my development where I can be accepting and loving towards by Evangelical br...sorry I can't even call them that.

Anyways, it's good to hear that bridges are being developed and dialogue is ensuing.

[AngelLynn]

Rico,

I understand the whole it's hard to accept people who have shown nothing but contempt and hate for those who do not even understand.

But you never know the next person who is around and hold out his/her hand to you could be someone you least expect.

I have a story to tell of something like that. I was studying abroad in France before the invasion of Iraq. The news at this time was not the most plesant to hear or welcomed. A lot of it had a good deal of fear in it. My family, mostly my mom was very nervous and paniced about the whole thing. I am her only daughter and in that thought she had every right to be scared and afraid of my safety. She was at our local Walmart and the conversations were very dower to say the least. She mentioned to the clerk as she was checking out that I was over in France and that she was very worried and concerned for me. The woman looked at my mother and comforted her and then took out a picture of Saint Christopher, as she was a Catholic, and handed it to my mom saying that Saint Christopher would offer her the peace and comfort she needed during this time for me being abroad. My mother was touched at being offered what was the offer of faith from a woman she didn't know nor did they share the same faith. My mother still has that picture of Saint Christopher to remind her that faith and love can come from all people.

A time may come that an Evengelical may comfort or offer aid to you when you least expect it. They are our Brothers and our Sisters as well.