Extremely Conflicted on Scouting

[Just_A_Guy]

OK, here's the deal:

I'm an eagle scout. I liked the program when I was in it; I like the aims of scouting; I like the merit badges; I like the books; I even like the uniforms.

However, while I like the scouting program, I have nothing but disdain for the organization and the infrastructure. Particularly in light of a Deseret News article from 2007 that explained, in some detail, where all that money from ward Friends of Scouting drives actually goes; the recent completely unnecessary change in uniforms (which I suspect was a gimmick to get a bunch of kids to spend another $30 for new shirts); and the BSA's general policy of nickel-and-diming its members wherever possible.

Not a big deal, except that recently I was called into the scouting program in my ward. Part of my duties is to go to the monthly Roundtable meetings. So, I went last week, and some buffoon from the Council gets up and what does he start talking about? Numbers. Particularly, the statistics needed to become a "quality unit", the number of "quality units" in the council, and how attaining the unit's Friends of Scouting donation quotas can help that unit to become a "quality unit". Not once did anyone say anything about the boys. It was all about institutional numbers--particularly dollar amounts. I was so disgusted that I walked out of the meeting.

So, I want to do right by my calling, by the boys, and by the Church. On the other hand, I have serious misgivings about donating my resources to an organization that I view as corrupt and that I frankly believe to be bilking the Church and its members.

Opinions?

[john doe]

Your link didn't work for me, which is too bad, I would have liked to have read it.

I know your pain, both as a former scoutmaster and current assistant scoutmaster with a son in the program. Personally, I don't care too much for the organization. I lost respect for the program in the '70s when they made changes so that a boy can become an eagle by age 14. All it seemed to do is turn some wards into eagle factories, without really teaching the kids much about the principles of scouting. My son doesn't act like he cares much for scouting, and I personally don't care if he doesn't make eagle, because it is so watered down that it means almost nothing anymore, but I keep pushing him because it's what his mom wants. I stopped going to those roundtables early on, I quickly figured out that they were a waste of time.

I also don't care for FOS, I don't see the benefits of what they claim to do. I once was aproached for FOS soon after i moved into a new home. I told the man who came by that if the troop needed money I would be happy to donate a couple hundred dollars if the boys would spend a few hours on a service project ridding my yard of rocks. He said he would pass the word along, and I never heard from him, or them, again. I ended up hauling all those rocks by myself, I guess the Boy Scouts weren't in need bad enough to earn money, they just wanted it to be handed to them.

[pam]

It worked for me.

Deseret News | Scouts may be thrifty, but some leaders are well paid

[BenRaines]

This has been my personal experience. I did all my Scouting outside the LDS church until I became a member at 16. I was already a life scout when I joined the church. It took me two years to earn my Eagle rank in an LDS unit.

I was a cub scout from the time I was 8.

I have been a Scoutmaster three times, currently on my third time. I have been a District Commissioner, recruiter, formed several new units of both cubs and scouts for non LDS sponsors.

Here is my take on the whole program. It is about the boys. It is about providing them the structure of a troop and helping them learn what it takes to become a leader and advance to the rank of Eagle scout, if that is what they wish to do.

I too am not a fan of 13 yr old Eagle scouts. Most boys do not have the maturity to accept the responsibility that should come with that rank attainment.

As a new Scoutmaster we held our first meeting two Wednesdays ago. I had boys that were new to the troop and one who will be 14 in May. The soon to be 14 year old's father was the former Scoutmaster. Former Scoutmaster didn't think uniforms were important. Guess what the boys thought.

My assistant Scoutmaster and I showed up in full uniform. Pressed and properly buttoned and tucked in. It is a uniform. Not a McDonald's uniform or Burger King but a Scout uniform.

We were preparing to go to the Klondike derby. Knot tying skills were one of the tasks at the derby so thought we would brush up. From second class scouts to Star scout and they could not tie a square knot. Nor a clove hitch, nor a bowline, nothing. We worked on it for about 20 minutes, then did some race games with knot tying.

Last meeting more knot tying and lashings with a uniform inspection. One boy in uniform. There will be more next time in uniform I am sure.

As for the uniforms there is no requirement to go out and buy new uniforms if you have the original uniforms. You are not out of uniform in the old style.

If we are the leaders it is what we make it.

Sorry that Roundtable is not good where you are. Where we are it is awesome and about improving our skills as leaders for all levels of scouts from cubs on up.

Go Scouting.

Ben Raines

[gabelpa]

When I earned the rank of Eagle Scout, I was about 9 months away from being too old to earn the rank. My troop went from being 4 or 5 boys who sort-of cared about Scouting, to just me and the Scoutmaster. I didn't take the Lone Scout route, though I could have done. I earned my fair share of the cheap badges that can be earned in an hour or two, in addition to the good old Wilderness Survival, and similar. I also made my way to Brotherhood in the Order of the Arrow, good times mostly.

I had every intention of involving myself with the Scouting program when I returned from my Mission. It didn't work out that way as I moved to the UK.

There is no affiliation between the Scouting programme over here and the LDS Church. I did find the local troop, but could neither tolerate the leadership, nor the lack of discipline and interest amongst the Scouts themselves. The whole mixed-gender troop thing put me a bit on-edge, especially when it came to the camping trips. There is nothing this side of the pond to suggest that the Scouts should keep themselves moral. There were at least 2 couples in the troop, and on one particular trip, they set up their tents a fair distance from the others, and no one batted an eye. I hope I don't need to fill in the blanks.

I have since fallen out with the local leadership, and it's looking doubtful that I would be involved until such point as my son shows interest. Even then, I expect to be doing a lot of extra activities to make sure he learns the wilderness skills and respect that I learned, as I don't expect it to come from the modern Scouting program in the local area.

Edited February 14, 2009 by gabelpa

[Elgama]

OK my take but purely from a British point of view - I am currently involved with a Rainbow Girl Guide troop (girls 5-7), we need numbers to function, without them we cannot pay for the hall, or activities etc without their £15 a term subscription. For the Rainbow troop which did not exist when I was 5 the uniform change has been practical, the tracksuit is much better than the dress I had to wear as a Brownie 20 odd years ago, its easier for the girls to put on themselves etc.

Without the administrators as annoying as they can be there would be no troop. We don't have the luxury of being attached to the LDS church we can't even legally use the chapel in an emergency when our hall is shut. The money has to be found.

-Charley

[Palerider]

I have been involved in Scouting for a long time myself. I was a Scoutmaster and served in the District and have gone thru and completed a Wood Badge Course. I currently serve as a Merit Badge Councilor which I have been doing for years now.

I like the program and what it teaches the boys and I have one beef with it......its too expensive and its tough for a single Mom to have boys in the program due to the expense. The BSA does not make it easy for them.

[BenRaines]

In the three wards I have been involved in as a Scoutmaster I never had a problem going to a Bishop for help for a boy whose parents had limited means. Former scout uniforms have been used and almost every ward has a couple of former scouts who are willing to help the Bishop out when needed. When I have needed equipment for the troop I have never come up short.

Of course I have no problem of asking people for a little extra money for Scouting.

Ben Raines

[Palerider]

One thing our Scout District does is have a uniform exchange-yard sale...whatever you want to call it. People who have uniforms that want to get rid of them would bring them to this and others who are in need would be able to acquire a uniform.

[Elgama]

One thing our Scout District does is have a uniform exchange-yard sale...whatever you want to call it. People who have uniforms that want to get rid of them would bring them to this and others who are in need would be able to acquire a uniform.

or there is ebay and we pass our uniforms down. Although right now my son is getting my daughter's cast off Tshirt, he is only 2 but dreading telling him he has to go to Beavers lol He goes every week in his Tshirt that was shrunk, the baseball cap and carrying a red and pink bag

-Charley

[pam]

I have been involved in Scouting for a long time myself. I was a Scoutmaster and served in the District and have gone thru and completed a Wood Badge Course. I currently serve as a Merit Badge Councilor which I have been doing for years now.

I like the program and what it teaches the boys and I have one beef with it......its too expensive and its tough for a single Mom to have boys in the program due to the expense. The BSA does not make it easy for them.

Amen to that. I was spending a fortune on scouting for my two boys. I finally just couldn't do it anymore.

[Just_A_Guy]

Just wanted to take a moment and thank everyone for their input.

[scorpionace]

our scoutmaster and treasurer wont show us the bank records. They recently bought a very used trailer from the treasurers brother in law for $2000.00 you can buy a new one for $2500.00 I wish there was a way to get rid of these parasites

any suggestions???

[scorpionace]

they think its their money

it belongs to the boys for their camp outs

SHAME ON THEM

[Palerider]

they think its their money

it belongs to the boys for their camp outs

SHAME ON THEM

if this is an LDS troop.....I believe the checking acount gets audited when the ward financial records get audited....

[BenRaines]

As an LDS unit we are not allowed to keep a separate account. All our funds are in YM or Other. We purchased a brand new trailer last year. Church will not own it for liability reasons but with Bishops permission it is in Scoutmaster's name and is to be transferred when he is changed.

Ben Raines

[prospectmom]

I was in the scouting program as a Cub Scout leader and then as a Leader and a Trainer... I also taught at the Round Tables... While I see alot of the negatives being said I also feel the good that comes out of it is so much more ........ It is not just with scouting... Anyone wonder how much money the Girl Scout Troops get to keep on cookie sales??? When my daughter was it was 30 to 40 cents on the dollar. There is corruption in any organization sadly that starts looking at is as a way to make profits / saleries of the backs of the youth.... I love the program .... not the money side of it... but can't throw the baby out with the dirty wash water.

[Palerider]

As an LDS unit we are not allowed to keep a separate account. All our funds are in YM or Other. We purchased a brand new trailer last year. Church will not own it for liability reasons but with Bishops permission it is in Scoutmaster's name and is to be transferred when he is changed.

Ben Raines

thanks Ben......I knew that had changed......

[Michael_Newman]

Our scoutmaster has been a scoutmaster for 18 years in several wards. Seems each time he moved into a new ward, the called him to be the scoutmaster.

When he moved into our ward he started with the usual 5 boys who came to play basketball on Wednesday evenings. Although they camped a few times a year, there was no real scouting program, and no uniforms.

After six months our scoutmaster had grown the unit to 65 boys (with about half non-member boys). For the older boys, we worked with the Young Men's President to form additional patrols - including a patrol for the priests that wore the dark green Explorer uniforms.

All of them were in uniform (including the classic Campaign Hat from the early days of scouting), organized into patrols, camping every month, and were getting ready for their summer fund raiser (which earned them $3000).

After a year and a half our scoutmaster formed a provisional troop comprised of boys from all of the troops within the district. The provisional troop included 81 scouts and 19 assistant scoutmasters. The troop traveled by Amtrak for a week-away expedition.

By his own choosing, our scoutmaster and the boys did not promote FOS. That was left up to the bishopric and the ward families. He had discovered years ago that one dollar given to United Way resulted in one penny that went to one of his boy scouts. But for the boy to qualify for the penny, he would have to match the penny with another penny. So if I have $5,000 to UW, the boy scout would get $50 toward his summer camp fee of $100. His scoutmaster decided to do their own fund raisers.

Funny thing, our scoutmaster never did set out to get a Quality Unit Award for the troop. They had no need for it.

And as for Eagle Scouts, sure - there were several - but most of the boys enjoyed the journey, no matter what award the journey resulted in.

The key is finding a dedicated scoutmaster that will be in the calling long enough (at least five years) with a dedicated Bishop that will sustain him. (The complainers I have seen haven't a clue as to their options. Our scoutmaster studied scouting, studied boys, and as a result of an outstanding annual program - the boys showed their respect by wearing the uniforms and doing the scouting program).

All my best,

Michael

[Misshalfway]

I have been involved in Scouting for a long time myself. I was a Scoutmaster and served in the District and have gone thru and completed a Wood Badge Course. I currently serve as a Merit Badge Councilor which I have been doing for years now.

I like the program and what it teaches the boys and I have one beef with it......its too expensive and its tough for a single Mom to have boys in the program due to the expense. The BSA does not make it easy for them.

I will confess that I have issues with the scouting program. One of which is the money. I just visited the scout office and forked out $85 on two shirts and one badge. Ouch! Most of the time, I am happy to give of my resources to the church no matter what the activity is. It just feels rather inequitable for me. My daughter attends the activity days program and I don't spend a dollar on her. No uniform or book or camp out or awards night. It just seems a little strange for the church to put so much effort into training boys and less focus on girls. I mean, don't girls need to learn to use a knife or do first aid? Heck...as the cook for this family, I use a knife every day. :)

I do think the church is improving things as it is much more equitable than when I was a girl. But my boys do scouting once a week. My daughter attends once every two weeks. She doesn't even get a weekly activity let alone countless awards ceremonies.

I wonder if the church sees this as a problem or a discrepancy as they have their meetings up there in SLC. I would like to know their reasoning.

Edited April 28, 2009 by Misshalfway

[Hemidakota]

Pam, in reading the story link, I am appalled in giving this man that amount of salary.

[Wingnut]

Anyone wonder how much money the Girl Scout Troops get to keep on cookie sales??? When my daughter was it was 30 to 40 cents on the dollar.

I was a Girl Scout for 13 years...that sounds about right to me. That's how much the troop gets to keep. Some goes back to the councils to deal with overhead and some subsidization of council-wide activities, and some goes to cookie production.

My daughter attends the activity days program and I don't spend a dollar on her. No uniform or book or camp out or awards night. It just seems a little strange for the church to put so much effort into training boys and less focus on girls. I mean, don't girls need to learn to use a knife or do first aid?

I learned first aid at Girls' Camp, and I learned knots, lashing, orienteering, map-reading, Morse code, and knife safety in Girl Scouts. And more first aid. :)

[bytor2112]

I have been the Scoutmaster for nearly three years. Perhaps focusing on Duty to God and how Scouting values reinforce the standards young men are taught as Priesthood holders might change your perspective.

[MarginOfError]

Just_A_Guy,

I can appreciate some of your thoughts. In my scouting career, I have been in three different troops and a venturing crew as a youth, and two troops as an adult. I was a member of these units in three different councils. In that time, I have seen varying levels of corruption poor leadership at different levels. I might surprise a few people when I say that, to some extent, scout executives deserve a good salary.

In one council I was a part of, there was an uproar when the council tried to buy a new car for the scout executive. The executive was driving a car that the council had bought him just five years ago. There was even more uproar because the car in question was somewhat large and luxurious (by which I mean it had air conditioning). There were loads of people complaining that an executive of a volunteer and non-profit organization shouldn’t be getting such handsome perks when the money could be going to provide more services for the youth. What these people failed to see, however, was that since this executive worked for a council covering two-thirds the state of Maine, he had put almost 200,000 miles on the car in those five years. When you’re expecting someone to drive 40,000 miles per year, it is fair to provide him with a vehicle that can take the mileage well and can provide some comfort along the way. Yes, sometimes, the salaries/perks we give our scout executives are justified.

Another reason it’s fair to give scout executives good compensation is that they have to work a lot of nights and weekends to help train the volunteer leaders. Not only do they usually work at the office regular hours, but they travel around their council in the evenings to be with volunteer leaders. Their work load (if they’re worth their salt) is much more than 40 hours per week and often requires that they have reduced time with their families. It’s only fair that they be compensated for that. (but I’m not justifying excessive salaries. Surely salaries in the $100 k would be more that sufficient).

On the other hand, in a different council, it was well known that you could earn a Silver Beaver award by making a donation in the order of about $12,000. Every couple of years the price went up. That council truly was corrupt, and I refused to give any more money to it than was absolutely necessary. Corruption in the scouting program can vary dramatically from one council to another. I’m terribly sorry if you are in a bad council. That will almost certainly make the scouting experience more sour.

Roundtable meetings can vary from district to district and from council to council as well. In my current district, the only time quality unit awards were mentioned was about three weeks before the applications were due. All other discussion about quality unit awards are held between troop leaders and district commissioners. Also, quality unit award requirements are determined by the council. In our council, money is not a factor. Each unit sets a goal for how many new leaders to recruit and train, boys to recruit and advance to first class, etc. And we aren’t required to increase our goal each year. If we have a lot of boys in the troop, but are lacking in leaders, we might set a goal to recruit fewer boys and focus on leaders that year. Perhaps you should start making some noise about changing the requirements, or at least eliminating the fundraising part.

I’m also with you on Friends of Scouting. I think it’s a horribly mismanaged campaign. Everywhere I’ve been, the FOS representative will show up once a year and distribute envelopes to all the parents. As if the families involved aren’t already committing enough money and resources. Well, I suppose in a Church sponsored troop the families might not be, so perhaps FOS is worthwhile there (my issues with Church sponsored troops would make a subject of an entirely different thread, but let’s just say I hope never to have to work in a Church sponsored troop). But my troop is not Church sponsored, and each family pays $15 - $25 per month to participate in the monthly campouts. That’s a huge financial commitment on top of scout camp each summer, and so when FOS shows up, we aren’t too inclined to donate a lot. I agree that the BSA needs to find a way to tap the population that isn’t already involved in scouting.

That being said, the overhead costs for councils and national operations are immense. And the only source of income there is to finance that is chartering fees and additional donations (and popcorn sales). These costs include camps, jamborees, insurance, and employee pay and benefits and training materials. As far as I’ve been able to tell, the infrastructure functions pretty well at the national level. The corruption is more rampant at the council level, and I’m not entirely sure how to fix that.

The best piece of advice I can offer is this: If you run a high quality troop that focuses on turning the boys into leaders, the good you perform for the boys in your troop will far outweigh the cost of corruption in the council. And the boys likely won’t even know that corruption exists.

[Herr_Jones]

My biggest problem with the Scouting program is how it's run in certain places. Currently in my ward the 12-14 year old category of male youth is 3. 3 total boys in the Boy Scouts program-there are more in the 14-16 (teachers and Varsity Scouts) and a couple in the 16-18 (Priests & Venturers).

How does a boy have any leadership positions in a "troop" of 3?? Since it's not looked upon favorably to consolidate all ages of boys into one troop (imagine younger boys learning from the older ones....novel concept) because they are separated by age and Priesthood level, nor is it agreeable to combine my ward's 3 boys with another wards 4 boys to combine to at least a fair sized patrol.

The local council here doesn't stock items for Varsity or Venturer programs, the only registered ones they have are the LDS ones, not a large enough population to justify the inventory. As such the Varsity & Venture programs are non exsistant in the three wards in our area. Scouting effectivly stops at 14 for youth here.

I'm one of those that pushed hard to earn my Eagle as quickly as possible, I acheived it at 13, went on to get 5 Palms, with as little help from my ward as possible. I wasn't in the correct Deacon's quorum leadership positions to get a leadership position for rank advancement with my ward, so I went to my grandfather's stake & ward to become a Den Chief. Because that ward had a really active Varsity program, the focus there was on earning the Varsity letter and all pins possible, those that didn't succeed in rank advancement and merit badges before they turned 14, didn't succeed in getting their Eagle. Of the 35 boys in my "friend" range (my age, one year older & younger) only two managed to get their Eagle, both of us before we hit 14 and moved to the next mandatory fun program.