Extremely Conflicted on Scouting

[JoeUzel]

New to the church and already a Scoutmaster. With 27 years of Scouting experience, my Bishop was so eager to have me participate, he asked me if I would like to help out with the troop, even before I became a member I'm 100% behind the principles and values of Scouting and 100% behind the church.

I'm somewhat disallusioned by the belittling of other people by members of the church and scouters here. I'm trying to understand how to rekindle the Fire of Christ through the Boy Scout Troop here in my ward through the program the council provides and through the Duty to God program. I'm certain that through understanding the core values of both programs, I can resolve the conflicts that reside in my ward.

If anyone has any ideas to help me resolve conflicts surrounding "traditional scouting" and "scouting in the church", please let me know. I wasn't aware anyone thought there were two different types of scouting until our former scoutmaster mentioned it. I knew the Church had a different charter than non-LDS scout troops. I thought having our own specially tailored charter was the Church's strong point.

Looking for conflict resolution,

Yours in Christ,

Joe

[BenRaines]

Joe, I have been in non LDS Scouting and LDS Scouting for many years. How are the charters different?

Biggest challenge in LDS Scouting is that we only camp from Friday to Saturday. Fortunately I live in Idaho where 90% of the scouting is LDS units. Programs are planned around Friday and Saturday activities.

Where I have a problem is with our available meeting days. As an LDS troop we have four meetings a month. One is for Duty to God and another is joint activity with the Young Womens program. We have two meeting days a month for Scouting activities and one campout a month. We are expected to prepare young men leaders and earn Eagle rank with half the time a non LDS Scout has. That is my only beef.

Having been involved with Scouting as a young cub to scout to various leadership positions in the Council and District as well as the troop I love the Scouting program and work hard to make it work and benefit the boys. It is about the boys that we do what we do.

Ben Raines

[mightynancy]

LDS units have more than just scheduling issues.

First of all, we register different units for each age group. Each ward will have 11-year-old Scouts (who are Scouts but don't camp without a parent present), Scouts who are 12-13 (deacons), Varsity (14-15 yr old teachers) and Venturers (16-17 yr old priests). This leads to nearly no continuity, nearly no opportunity for the boys to exercise leadership of the younger boys, and if you're not an Eagle by 14, your mother will have to make you do it. This is meant to keep the quorums distinct, but this could be accomplished by having different patrols in one large troop, IMO.

We regularly change Troop (or Pack) leadership.

If you're LDS and a male, you will be in Scouting whether you want to or not. This means we don't always have buy-in from the boys or from their parents. In a community unit, either the boy or his parents are invested in the boy's participation (both, if you're lucky).

I love Scouting and I hate to see how little we take advantage of its possibilities.

[JoeUzel]

Ben, Thanks for the positive feedback. The challenge of creating and maintaining a high quality scout cub/troop/varisity/venture program is echoed hear in Iowa too.

I'm starting to find that most conflicts at the Troop level can be solved through better communication on my part. I just started a monthly newsletter and website to help with that.

When I talk about a different charter, I'm referring to pages 4 and 5 of "Scouting and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints". Since the original charter in 1910 for the LDS Church, scouting in the church has had some differences from other BSA scout troops.

(link: Boy Scouts of America LDS Relationships - Resources)

(direct link: http://www.ldsbsa.org/pdf/resources/Scouting%20and%20the%20church-%20temp%20book.pdf)

I too love the Scouting program and work hard to make it work and benefit the boys. Once parents, church leaders, and the scouts themselves learn I do what I do, because it's for their benefit, many conflicts dry up in a stupor.

Joe Uzel

"You only get to do things for the first time once" --Joe Uzel (1993)

[Guest mormonmusic]

The expense everyone is talking about bothers me. I've never been in scouting, but I had to set up a cub pack when I was in the Bishopric. I was amazed at the expense of things like badges, etcetera.

There are times I wish we had our own program -- our own Church program that is similar to Scouting in goals and concept, but which makes the materials and resources more affordable.

The problem with this is that it would a monumental effort to get it started. Plus, it would have little recognition outside of the Church. At least everyone knows what an Eagle Scout is.

[john doe]

Yeah, but being an Eagle Scout is practically meaningless these days. The program has been watered down so much and become so easy that a 14 year-old has very little concept of the values he is supposedly reflecting.

[BenRaines]

JD, oh I guess I have more than one beef other than scheduling. I agree that a 14 yr old Eagle Scout has little understanding of the responsibility or honor that comes with being an Eagle Scout. Becoming an Eagle Scout is not the end of the journey but just the beginning. Once you achieve the rank of Eagle, Scouting has given you much, now is the time for you to give back.

Also parents telling sons that they can not have a drivers license until they become an Eagle is a wrong incentive, in my opinion.

I want boys that will at least come to the campouts. If they come to the campouts they will learn Scouting principles and have religious experiences. That is how we run the program.

Ben Raines

[Marine8541]

I have been a long time lurker and I was moved to respond to this thread. I'm relatively new to the Church and I'm First Counselor in YMs. From what I've seen in my few years with the Church scouting is having an adverse effect on out YM programs. Too many scout leaders are putting way too much pressure on our youth to participate in their program and that is driving kids away from the Church. I have kids who are involved in football, basketball, jujitsu, debate, swim, science club, and thespians just to name a few of their activities.

These are great kids who are doing all we ask in the Strength for Youth and are progressing in their callings, assignments, duties, and are completing their Duty to God yet there are those traditionalist who are always chiding them for not coming to scouts. that attitude is driving our Youth away from the Church and we have to tread very lightly and remember that scouting IS NOT a commandment. Scouting needs to be less intertwined with the Church when it comes to kids who just don't want to do it.

Scouts is a great program but there are a lot of great programs out there and our leadership has to stop putting pressure on those don't like scouts because in the end we're hurting everyone when that happens.

[bl8tant]

I have a somewhat different perspective on this issue.

In my previous wards (in the southeastern and midwestern US), the scouting programs were OK. However, last year we moved to the west coast, and our scouting program here is *terrific*. We have great activities that the boys love: white-water rafting, caving, backcountry hiking, etc. The boys are learning not only Scout and church principles, but practical skills. I am thankful for the energy and effort that our Scout leaders put in, because it pays off for the boys, in spades.

Marine8541, you're right that pressuring kids who don't want to take part in Scouting can eventually drive them away. I think, though, that we can lovingly invite, rather than pressure, to make the benefits of Scouting participation available to everyone.

[Bacdoc]

I'd like to thank everyone who commented in this thread. I was called to serve as the YM president a year and a half ago, and have some issues with scouting as well. I try to keep my opinions to myself, as I don't want to murmur, and I try to serve the Lord as best I can.

Half of our boys are interested in the scouting program. Of that half, most of them are involved because their parents are forcing them to be there. So be it, when I was a kid I had to do things that were good for me even if I didn't enjoy it. My point though is that there is no motivation within our troop from the boys to advance and no excitement from them for scouting in general. The leaders (Bishop, myself, scoutmaster, advisers) are dragging these boys through the motions. It is a massive effort to accomplish meager goals. Those boys that are not interested in scouts never come to mutual anymore, because we are always focused on scouts, and we're losing them. The parents of these boys that do come, drop them off and expect us to take care of everything.

I could go on, but............ I don't want to, you get the point, and it sounds as if it is not only our unit.

I love these boys. I'm frightened for them. As I continue to get to know them, I worry more and more that they are not as prepared for life as I felt we were. Perhaps I have an inflated opinion of our education and preparation. I don't think so. I sense a lack of ambition with our boys for anything. Where is their ambition??? It's for this reason that I continue to use any tool at my disposal to teach them. Scouts and Duty to God are the tools that I have, so I do the best I can with them.

I have a testimony and know that scouting can direct and teach and prepare a young man. But that young man has to be self motivated to do so. So, here's the crux of my issues with scouting. I believe that the way we do scouting some times as LDS unit's is a watered down version of scouting. Where I live there are many non LDS troops and they think that we are a complete joke. We are consistently the worst financed troop, and have the least amount of discipline and most often are the least prepared. I know that much of the blame for that can be placed at my feet, but I also see a distinct difference between our troop and non LDS troops.

They are volunteers. The leaders and boys scout because they are interested and love it. Our leaders and boys do it because they were called to do so or they turned twelve and are Aaronic Priesthood holders. I will never love scouting. I love the boys and do my best, but I could care less about knots, camping, and merit badges. I would much prefer to see the boys achieve their Duty to God then Eagle scout, and much of the culture of the church seems to have this backwards.

Nevertheless, I've been called to this position, the Lord knows me and my weaknesses, so I know I have much to learn and I'm here for a purpose. Perhaps in time my views regarding scouting will change. I just want a program that didn't divide the YM into groups. Scouting and non scouting. It doesn't mean to, but it does. If I try to do fun activities that don't involve scouting I hear "what does ultimate frisby, or dodge ball have to do with achieving merit badges." I just want to keep everyone involved, but I can't convince the boys that want nothing to do with scouts to come anyways and we'll have fun. And I can't blame them.

Sorry for the long post and rant. I just feel like the energy that we use to "drag" these boys to different ranks that mean nothing to them that we could do something else that could be fun and help them with their spiritual progression. In the mean time, I'll continue to try to change my attitude.

Thanks

[bl8tant]

Bacdoc, as I was reading your post I remembered something that I was told at a ward Scout meeting shortly after I joined the ward: our stake president frequently tells people that Scouting is the activity arm of the Aaronic priesthood, a statement that echoes a bunch of other similar-sounding quotes here. Some stake presidents and bishops drink more of this particular flavor of Kool-Aid than others. In my current stake, the leadership puts a lot of horsepower behind the programs, and they are well supported by the families. We try to focus on helping the boys earn their Eagle rank by age 15 or thereabouts, before they start smelling perfume and gasoline. We still have some boys who aren't interested, but we also have about 20% of our troop who are non-members. That's the flip side o f the integration between Scouting and church.

I think that to the extent the stake and ward leadership embraces this principle that Scouting can be a wonderful experience, but there has to be more to the exercise of, and learning in, the priesthood than just Scouting.

As the father of three sons, let me say that I appreciate your willingness to serve even though this isn't your favorite calling. THe Lord will bless you for your efforts even if the YM don't seem to appreciate or recognize them.

[MarginOfError]

They are volunteers. The leaders and boys scout because they are interested and love it. Our leaders and boys do it because they were called to do so or they turned twelve and are Aaronic Priesthood holders. I will never love scouting. I love the boys and do my best, but I could care less about knots, camping, and merit badges. I would much prefer to see the boys achieve their Duty to God then Eagle scout, and much of the culture of the church seems to have this backwards.

Nevertheless, I've been called to this position, the Lord knows me and my weaknesses, so I know I have much to learn and I'm here for a purpose. Perhaps in time my views regarding scouting will change. I just want a program that didn't divide the YM into groups. Scouting and non scouting. It doesn't mean to, but it does. If I try to do fun activities that don't involve scouting I hear "what does ultimate frisby, or dodge ball have to do with achieving merit badges." I just want to keep everyone involved, but I can't convince the boys that want nothing to do with scouts to come anyways and we'll have fun. And I can't blame them.

Have you taken any of the BSA training? From the way you talk about scouting, my guess is that you haven't. If scouting were all about knots, camping, and merit badges, then it would be entirely worthless for the Church. The reason scouting fits so well for the Church is that the purpose of scouting is to take boys and develop them into men with strong morals, leadership skills, and teaching skills. And 90% of the program should be run by the boys.

Camping is important to scouting only insomuch as the outdoors provide a great classroom in which boys can develop their leadership and teaching skills. Knots, first aid, cooking, and plant and animal life identification are merely skills on which boys can practice teaching others. The patrol method is employed to give structure to leadership.

Also, if you're focusing on merit badges, you're doing something wrong. In the troop I work with, we try very hard to get the boys advanced to First Class within the first year. After that, we encourage them to run for leadership positions, and that's it. We might offer four merit badge through the troop in the course of a year. And these merit badges require participation on nights other than troop meetings. They are typically eagle required merit badges that are in more of a class room setting, although sometimes we offer hiking or cycling.

Other than that, the boys are on their own to get as many or as few merit badges as they like. Most of our Eagle Scouts attain the rank between 16 and 18 years of age. Roughly 60% of the boys who make it to First Class go on to get their eagles.

It's a very successful program, and it's successful because it is run by the boys. They meet once a month on a Saturday to plan the next month's activities. If they decide they want to do a merit badge (we did cooking one month), then we make it happen. If they decide they want to focus on emergency first aid, that's what we do. Anytime the scoutmaster asks me, "do you think we ought to do X", I always say, "let's ask the boys at PLC."

So, I can't stress enough how important it is to take the BSA training (Outdoor Skills and Leader Specific Training are essential) and to get as many adults to take it as well. The more trained adults you have, the more people you'll see catching the vision, and the more successful your troop will be.

Also, try to get your boys to go to National Youth Leadership Training (NYLT). It will make all the difference in the world.

[jayanna]

Okay, this might sound really weird, but my hbby was told, in a church training on the stake level, that the young mens' program is breaking away from scouts and becoming much more like the YW program, which is harder. Is this just a regional thing?

[gabelpa]

By someone at Wikipedia's reckoning, the LDS church accounts for 13% of the BSA's membership. I wonder what impact it would have if the Church withdrew support wholesale in this fashion?

[jayanna]

Actually at the meeting the numbers were significantly higher than that. I guess we'll just have to see as it unfolds. Maybe it is a regional thing, I'll post when I see a change.

[Wingnut]

By someone at Wikipedia's reckoning, the LDS church accounts for 13% of the BSA's membership. I wonder what impact it would have if the Church withdrew support wholesale in this fashion?

I've always heard 25%. Maybe my number is old.

[hrrc]

Okay, this might sound really weird, but my hbby was told, in a church training on the stake level, that the young mens' program is breaking away from scouts and becoming much more like the YW program, which is harder. Is this just a regional thing?

Don't know. Where are you at? When did this training take place?

[bl8tant]

Okay, this might sound really weird, but my hbby was told, in a church training on the stake level, that the young mens' program is breaking away from scouts and becoming much more like the YW program, which is harder. Is this just a regional thing?

This probably refers to the changes in the Duty to God program for YMs. I haven't seen any information on the changes yet, although I believe they have been released at least in some areas.

[MarginOfError]

This probably refers to the changes in the Duty to God program for YMs. I haven't seen any information on the changes yet, although I believe they have been released at least in some areas.

The new Duty to God program was rolled out in June in the United States. I don't know if it was rolled out in the rest of the world, but if it hasn't, it should be coming soon.

Also, if a ward is running a scouting program that is so simple that the YW program is 'much harder,' the scout leaders ought to be whipped. That isn't a problem with the scouting program, it's a problem with leaders not running a proper program. The solution to that problem isn't a new program, it's proper training. But as I've already said, I've noticed the scout training of ward leaders to be woefully inadequate.

[jayanna]

It was a stake meeting, the stake is moving the focus from scouting to the Duty to God program, which was described by my hubby to me, b/c I am only slightly familiar with the YW program and not familiar with the (Ilearned the name today) Duty to God program at all. The scouting will now be covered on the Stake level. Actually, our bishop said, "If you think young men have it hard, you should see what the young women have to do" maybe he meant spiritually, I don't know.

The problem is not our ward scout leaders, please don't assume that they are 'bad' or that the scouting program is 'bad. they've been at it for over 20 years, they really know their stuff...we have a lot of kids in our scouts that are nonmembers, with eagle scout dad's, even though there are lots of bigger, better funded groups b/c their parents know that it is run the right way...I got to know this b/c I went to see one of our boys get his eagle and met the parents all around. the problem is that the Duty to God program is supposed to be better...shining a light with the D t G program doesn't necessarily mean other program is bad does it?

The reason I ran my original post was for information, clarification, not to give you an opportunity to judge a ward program you have never seen, nor to make a complaint on the scouting program. I'm sorry that you chose to misinterpret my original post, and use it as a means to attack others.

Edited August 4, 2010 by jayanna

[Cassiopeia]

I have to confess, the area I live in has taken the real meaning of scouting and earning your eagle scout to a new level. And not one I approve of. I came home the other day to find a doohicky, um..not sure what to call it but it was like a plastic coated door flier like you see in hotels that says do not disturb but this was for a boy working on his eagle scout award.

I have no idea how much his parents paid for it but let me tell you, it cost a pretty penny that's for sure. Professional editing and printing, all in an effort to tell us he needed our help for his eagle scout project. He wanted items on his list and they had to be all purchased at his approved stores.

Setting aside the fact that his parents did this NOT him, I am a bit taken back by the cheek that says we must spend money to help HIM earn his eagle scout. He also asked for the items to be delivered to HIS home. Not that he'd come pick them up.

Seriously, it really is just offensive. I will not lift a finger to help a young man who doesn't know the true meaning of service and shame on his parents for doing it for him.

[pam]

The reason I ran my original post was for information, clarification, not to give you an opportunity to judge a ward program you have never seen, nor to make a complaint on the scouting program. I'm sorry that you chose to misinterpret my original post, and use it as a means to attack others.

MarginofError was not attacking you. He was posting an opinion based on what was said. The thing about a public forum is as I have mentioned many times before, you get a wide variety of responses. Not always will they agree with you. If MOE had quoted you I would say yes he might be attacking but in fact he quoted another poster when he responded. Edited August 4, 2010 by pam

[Cassiopeia]

MarginofError was not attacking you. He was posting an opinion based on what was said. The thing about a public forum is as I have mentioned many times before, you get a wide variety of responses. Not always will they agree with you. If MOE had quoted you I would say yes he might be attacking but in fact he quoted another poster when he responded.

who is this for? i certainly don't think he was attacking me.

[Suzie]

who is this for? i certainly don't think he was attacking me.

Hmmmm, Pam wasn't quoting you. She was quoting Jayanna.

[Wingnut]

who is this for? i certainly don't think he was attacking me.

It's referring to this:

The reason I ran my original post was for information, clarification, not to give you an opportunity to judge a ward program you have never seen, nor to make a complaint on the scouting program. I'm sorry that you chose to misinterpret my original post, and use it as a means to attack others.