Clean your own shelf first

[Guest missingsomething]

I had a Bishop once give a talk about "cleaning your own shelf first"... meaning that we need to take inventory of our own lives and short comings before we judge others for theirs.

The one thing that bothers me about "christians" including latter day saints...maybe especially lds.... is that there is a very judgemental undertone to a lot of people. I think that is why some people become less active.

I know that some people feel the need to "correct other saints" that is their responsibility... but sometimes, I feel, that when people do not approach the gospel in the same way, some people think they are wrong.

I have read several scriptures that warn us that judging others is a serious transgression - yet, we often justify doing it. I take it that no judging means not judging others -for anything. However, I think its human nature to hear someone living differently and feel "offed" by it and want to "convert" people to our personal way of doing things or believing in things.

I am NOT perfect here -I know I do this sometimes too without even being aware of it... but I honestly do make an effort to limit my judgements. Or at least, withhold them.

Yes, Im on a soap box - but this really bugs me. So, the next time you feel the urge to challenge someone's faith, how well they adhere to the gospel, how they choose to live... remember - its better to be a good example and to bear your testimony about what you know to be true -rather than telling them whats wrong with their way.

Ok... :) Im off my soap box now! WHEW... that Zest box is smelly!

[applepansy]

Well done and an excellent message.

My soap box has been used for so long that it no longer smells like soap and a friend surprised me by painting it with bright yellow sunflowers.

:)

[MikeUpton]

now you're zestfully clean :).

good thought! here's an very useful article that teaches us about the proper context (a very limited one) in which to judge others.

LDS.org - Ensign Article - “Judge Not†and Judging

to summarize briefly, the six things we must follow in judging others is:

First, a righteous judgment must, by definition, be intermediate. It will refrain from declaring that a person has been assured of exaltation or from dismissing a person as being irrevocably bound for hellfire.

Second, a righteous judgment will be guided by the Spirit of the Lord, not by anger, revenge, jealousy, or self-interest.

Third, to be righteous, an intermediate judgment must be within our stewardship. We should not presume to exercise and act upon judgments that are outside our personal responsibilities.

Fourth, we should, if possible, refrain from judging until we have adequate knowledge of the facts.

A fifth principle of a righteous intermediate judgment is that whenever possible we will refrain from judging people and only judge situations.

Sixth, forgiveness is a companion principle to the commandment that in final judgments we judge not and in intermediate judgments we judge righteously.

One of the main reasons we as Latter-day Saints struggle with judging others, I believe is from pride. Ezra Taft Benson said "Pride is the great stumbling block to Zion. I repeat: Pride is the great stumbling block to Zion."

I think this is why judging others is so very common among us.

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Beware of Pride

Edited February 26, 2009 by MikeUpton
six things, not five things

[MikeUpton]

now you're zestfully clean :).

good thought! here's an very useful article that teaches us about the proper context (a very limited one) in which to judge others.

LDS.org - Ensign Article - “Judge Not†and Judging

to summarize briefly, the five things we must follow in judging others is:

First, a righteous judgment must, by definition, be intermediate. It will refrain from declaring that a person has been assured of exaltation or from dismissing a person as being irrevocably bound for hellfire.

Second, a righteous judgment will be guided by the Spirit of the Lord, not by anger, revenge, jealousy, or self-interest.

Third, to be righteous, an intermediate judgment must be within our stewardship. We should not presume to exercise and act upon judgments that are outside our personal responsibilities.

Fourth, we should, if possible, refrain from judging until we have adequate knowledge of the facts.

A fifth principle of a righteous intermediate judgment is that whenever possible we will refrain from judging people and only judge situations.

Sixth, forgiveness is a companion principle to the commandment that in final judgments we judge not and in intermediate judgments we judge righteously.

One of the main reasons we as Latter-day Saints struggle with judging others, I believe is from pride. Ezra Taft Benson said "Pride is the great stumbling block to Zion. I repeat: Pride is the great stumbling block to Zion."

I think this is why judging others is so very common among us.

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Beware of Pride

[prospectmom]

You all spoke this so well.. Just exactly the point I was trying to make so badly a week or so ago..... Mike the references are must haves and I so appreciate them. Misssing you are wonderful thanks

[Guest tomk]

It does happen in here from time to time.

There is also such a thing as being too sensitive.

At the end of the day, we cannot give offense to others. They choose to take offense.

Choose Not to Be Offended

When we believe or say we have been offended, we usually mean we feel insulted, mistreated, snubbed, or disrespected. And certainly clumsy, embarrassing, unprincipled, and mean-spirited things do occur in our interactions with other people that would allow us to take offense. However, it ultimately is impossible for another person to offend you or to offend me. Indeed, believing that another person offended us is fundamentally false. To be offended is a choice we make; it is not a condition inflicted or imposed upon us by someone or something else.

In the grand division of all of God's creations, there are things to act and things to be acted upon (see 2 Nephi 2:13–14). As sons and daughters of our Heavenly Father, we have been blessed with the gift of moral agency, the capacity for independent action and choice. Endowed with agency, you and I are agents, and we primarily are to act and not just be acted upon. To believe that someone or something can make us feel offended, angry, hurt, or bitter diminishes our moral agency and transforms us into objects to be acted upon. As agents, however, you and I have the power to act and to choose how we will respond to an offensive or hurtful situation.

taken from:

And Nothing Shall Offend Them

Sometimes we need to accept constructive criticism and be willing to learn from it and admit that someone has a point about us.

[prospectmom]

so easy to say Tom.... Sadly some people tend to purposly try to offend us.... Some of us are not on that higher plane to where the arrows have no effect......... This is too easy of an excuse for those folks who tend to judge and be offensive. I get what your saying and wish it was that simple...

[Justice]

The thing about taking inventory of your own weakness *before* you criticize others for theirs, is that once you realize your weakness, you will never criticize others.

So, I don't think it's saying once you have sufficiently punished yourself for what you do, *then* you can criticize others.

Like the story of the woman who was brought before Christ caught in the very act of adultery. There was no question she was guilty. But, Christ's intention was not that they throw stones at themselves first, and *then* throw stones at her. His intention was that they use all their time and efforts to clean their inward vessel, and recognize that they were in need of forgiveness just as she was. Not that he condoned the sin, but that we should realize people can change and use the atonement to repent.

Good discussion.

[Guest tomk]

so easy to say Tom.... Sadly some people tend to purposly try to offend us.... Some of us are not on that higher plane to where the arrows have no effect......... This is too easy of an excuse for those folks who tend to judge and be offensive. I get what your saying and wish it was that simple...

It's not about being in a higher plane. It's not even about who's right or who is wrong. If we take offense, it is because we choose to. This is just as true of an investigator or recent convert as it is of a General Authority.

And it was not me saying it, it was an apostle of the Lord. He didn't say there were any special exceptions. It is simple. Let's not make it complex. Adding complexity that is not there is an excuse.

Tom

[Bookmeister]

Some folks only have one shelf to clean. Others have an entire bookcase of shelves to clean.

Me? Well, come on into my library room :)

[Guest missingsomething]

It does happen in here from time to time.

There is also such a thing as being too sensitive.

At the end of the day, we cannot give offense to others. They choose to take offense.

Choose Not to Be Offended

When we believe or say we have been offended, we usually mean we feel insulted, mistreated, snubbed, or disrespected. And certainly clumsy, embarrassing, unprincipled, and mean-spirited things do occur in our interactions with other people that would allow us to take offense. However, it ultimately is impossible for another person to offend you or to offend me. Indeed, believing that another person offended us is fundamentally false. To be offended is a choice we make; it is not a condition inflicted or imposed upon us by someone or something else.

In the grand division of all of God's creations, there are things to act and things to be acted upon (see 2 Nephi 2:13–14). As sons and daughters of our Heavenly Father, we have been blessed with the gift of moral agency, the capacity for independent action and choice. Endowed with agency, you and I are agents, and we primarily are to act and not just be acted upon. To believe that someone or something can make us feel offended, angry, hurt, or bitter diminishes our moral agency and transforms us into objects to be acted upon. As agents, however, you and I have the power to act and to choose how we will respond to an offensive or hurtful situation.

taken from:

And Nothing Shall Offend Them

Sometimes we need to accept constructive criticism and be willing to learn from it and admit that someone has a point about us.

Ahh.. but I need to find the article... but there was also an article in the Ensign that states even if we feel we did nothing to deserve someone being offended that we need to ask for their forgiveness.

It is actually this very attitude... "its not my fault... its theirs...." that goes at the core of being CHRISTian. All I am saying is that we need to strive to avoid this situation.

[Guest missingsomething]

It's not about being in a higher plane. It's not even about who's right or who is wrong. If we take offense, it is because we choose to. This is just as true of an investigator or recent convert as it is of a General Authority.

And it was not me saying it, it was an apostle of the Lord. He didn't say there were any special exceptions. It is simple. Let's not make it complex. Adding complexity that is not there is an excuse.

Tom

So Tom,

Do you think Christ would say... Job Well DOne ... if you seriously lived your live with the attitude... "well, they CHOSE to be offended!"

Whats funny... oh.. even ironic... is that this thread was NOT about people being offended, but rather people with Judgemental attitudes.

But anyways, really.... who are YOU (any of us) to decide that you are authorized to make judgements on people... how can you be ABSOLUTELY sure that they did NOT have right to take offense?! But at the simpliest form.. you are right... we can choose to be ignorant towards people's poor attitudes, wrongful judgements, hurtful words, bad actions. Sure, the person who gets beat up in a fight can CHOOSE not to be offended....so you are technically right.

Personally, I'd rather work on myself then spend my time trying to "work" on others.

And is it more important to say... well, its their fault... or ..... well it maybe their fault but I will strive to repair the damage by TRULY asking forgiveness.... and STRIVE to clean our own shelf and if nothing else... be LESS abrasive.

Edited February 18, 2009 by missingsomething

[Guest missingsomething]

The thing about taking inventory of your own weakness *before* you criticize others for theirs, is that once you realize your weakness, you will never criticize others.

So, I don't think it's saying once you have sufficiently punished yourself for what you do, *then* you can criticize others.

Like the story of the woman who was brought before Christ caught in the very act of adultery. There was no question she was guilty. But, Christ's intention was not that they throw stones at themselves first, and *then* throw stones at her. His intention was that they use all their time and efforts to clean their inward vessel, and recognize that they were in need of forgiveness just as she was. Not that he condoned the sin, but that we should realize people can change and use the atonement to repent.

Good discussion.

Yes... I should have been more specific... yes.. once you look at yourself honestly - then you wont want to judge others. The clean your own shelf first phrase does not have a "then" in in for a reason. But you make an EXCELLENT point!!!

Edited February 18, 2009 by missingsomething

[Guest missingsomething]

Some folks only have one shelf to clean. Others have an entire bookcase of shelves to clean.

Me? Well, come on into my library room :)

hahaha ... too bad theirs not a laugh button.

[Hemidakota]

I had a Bishop once give a talk about "cleaning your own shelf first"... meaning that we need to take inventory of our own lives and short comings before we judge others for theirs.

The one thing that bothers me about "Christians" including latter day saints...maybe especially lds.... is that there is a very judgmental undertone to a lot of people. I think that is why some people become less active.

I know that some people feel the need to "correct other saints" that is their responsibility... but sometimes, I feel, that when people do not approach the gospel in the same way, some people think they are wrong.

I have read several scriptures that warn us that judging others is a serious transgression - yet, we often justify doing it. I take it that no judging means not judging others -for anything. However, I think its human nature to hear someone living differently and feel "offed" by it and want to "convert" people to our personal way of doing things or believing in things.

I am NOT perfect here -I know I do this sometimes too without even being aware of it... but I honestly do make an effort to limit my judgments. Or at least, withhold them.

Yes, Im on a soap box - but this really bugs me. So, the next time you feel the urge to challenge someone's faith, how well they adhere to the gospel, how they choose to live... remember - its better to be a good example and to bear your testimony about what you know to be true -rather than telling them whats wrong with their way.

Ok... :) Im off my soap box now! WHEW... that Zest box is smelly!

Good to see that since it is not a correct principle to follow.

If there were no judges in Israel then there is no organization and corrections to be made. There is no law and so forth, there is no GOD or Godhead to rule and control the intelligences. In the end what was quoted by Lehi and Alma, we would not exist. Do you want that? I highly doubt it.

The Lord has granted us to be judges over our stewardship. Yet, He has cautious us to do it in righteousness. However, I will add this, withholding correction is far worst than the person who is committing it in ignorance.

Noting the parable of the Vineyard, it is the Lord that prunes and digs about in separating the righteous from the wicked. But it is the servants that remove the bundles of bad vines and throw them into the fire. Here it is stating, He will clean His own house first prior before passing His judgment upon the world.

Sum it up, it is good to judge. It is good to correct falsities, if we walk in the same latched shoes as the Savior.

Edited February 19, 2009 by Hemidakota

[applepansy]

Some folks only have one shelf to clean. Others have an entire bookcase of shelves to clean.

Me? Well, come on into my library room :)

When you get finished with your Library will you help me with mine?:eek:

Thank you for the smile. . . I needed the Laugh button.

[Hemidakota]

Some folks only have one shelf to clean. Others have an entire bookcase of shelves to clean.

Me? Well, come on into my library room :)

As I listened to a Priesthood teacher, he remarked of his time of being inactive for ten years. He wondered if he would of been a bishop during that time frame. I just smiled and look at my own life and wondered if the dream given to me years ago that would ever come true; noting my personal fight against the natural man.

[NeuroTypical]

Clean your own shelf first - I like it. I'll add it to the list of advice I occasionally give myself (and often give critics of my church).

* Clean up your own back yard.

* Physician, heal thyself.

* Remove the beam from your eye before complaining about the mote in your brother's.

[Guest missingsomething]

Good to see that since it is not a correct principle to follow.

If there were no judges in Israel then there is no organization and corrections to be made. There is no law and so forth, there is no GOD or Godhead to rule and control the intelligences. In the end what was quoted by Lehi and Alma, we would not exist. Do you want that? I highly doubt it.

The Lord has granted us to be judges over our stewardship. Yet, He has cautious us to do it in righteousness. However, I will add this, withholding correction is far worst than the person who is committing it in ignorance.

Noting the parable of the Vineyard, it is the Lord that prunes and digs about in separating the righteous from the wicked. But it is the servants that remove the bundles of bad vines and throw them into the fire. It is stating. He will clean His own house first prior before passing His judgment upon the world.

Sum it up, it is good to judge. It is good to correct falsities, if we walk in the same latched shoes as the Savior.

Yes, Hemi. there are some people who are given authority to "judge" and to Lead the church... I believe however, most of Us do not fall into that category.

I guess in the end we shall know which was a better way.... bear testimony in a non-contentious way...lead by example... or constantly tell everyone why they are wrong and you are right.

I personally respond better to people when they are not going down my throat as to why I am wrong... and those I admire most in the church (prophets) while they have been stern - seldom pointed fingers at others religions, etc and if you look at the whole - including Christ... most of the time (and yes I acknowledge that SOMEtimes...people need to be repremanded)... they did so with a geniune love and guided people in what they should be doing rather than telling them how wrong everyone else is. :)

As for me - I will strive to correct and perfect myself... and then lead and guide others by my example. I will share with people what makes ME happy and what I have had witnessed to be true - instead of contenting with their actions, thoughts, and beliefs. I will strive not to be judgemental of other religions and I KNOW I will lead more to Christ that way than any other way!

Afterall, in the end... we are all trying to figure out the best way to enbody the "pure love of Christ". :)

Edited February 18, 2009 by missingsomething

[pam]

I've read through this thread...I have only one comment: Do we go ahead and make judgmental remarks or remarks that could be taken as offensive because: It's their problem if they are offended? People are human and what we may not think of as a hurting comment could very well be just that. It's almost as if we are excusing some remarks because of that.

[recon]

Actually Christ gave that same advice,

Luke 6:42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother’s eye.

[Connie]

Ahhh, gotta love the threads on judgmentalism! They have to be the most judgmental threads i've ever read. Maybe we should talk about those who judge those whom they perceive as judgmental. Much like Laman and Lemuel.

1 Nephi 17:22

And we know that the people who were in the land of Jerusalem were a righteous people; for they kept the statutes and judgments of the Lord, and all his commandments, according to the law of Moses; wherefore, we know that they are a righteous people; and our father hath judged them, and hath led us away because we would hearken unto his words; yea, and our brother is like unto him. And after this manner of language did my brethren murmur and complain against us.

My favorite chapter on this very topic (just to throw it out there):

Moroni 7

My question is this: Where is it written that we have a "right to offense?" I always thought we were "required to forgive all men." D&C 64:10

[Guest missingsomething]

Ahhh, gotta love the threads on judgmentalism! They have to be the most judgmental threads i've ever read. Maybe we should talk about those who judge those whom they perceive as judgmental. Much like Laman and Lemuel.

1 Nephi 17:22

And we know that the people who were in the land of Jerusalem were a righteous people; for they kept the statutes and judgments of the Lord, and all his commandments, according to the law of Moses; wherefore, we know that they are a righteous people; and our father hath judged them, and hath led us away because we would hearken unto his words; yea, and our brother is like unto him. And after this manner of language did my brethren murmur and complain against us.

My favorite chapter on this very topic (just to throw it out there):

Moroni 7

My question is this: Where is it written that we have a "right to offense?" I always thought we were "required to forgive all men." D&C 64:10

Thank you for posting those scriptures... I was too lazy to go to lds.org and copy/paste! :)

[Justice]

Connie, you're my hero! Moroni 7 is AWESOME!

[Dove]

MIssingSomething~

Thank you for your post and thoughts on judgmentalism. I appreciate your thoughts and points.

I feel part of your point, is, are we looking to put down and correct people around us? Or are we trying to support them in the good they are attempting to do? Or simply pass in peace without any provocative/attackative attitude towards them?

It is so easy to judge others in all of our glaring acts, yet so difficult to repent and focus on our own weaknesses and the correcting of them. Perhaps this is one tool of the adversary to keep us from focusing on repenting ourselves~

Thank you for your thoughts and post

Dove