Keep meeting people I wish were members...


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Yeah, so I keep meeting people at school who I'd marry in an instant and wish they were members so I could! I don't think I'm too picky but I don't know, I never seem to connect with any of the young men at the single's branch. I go to a small art school in Virginia and I just love being around the fellow artists insomuch that I would really love to be able to marry a member who is also an artist. I know it's not important to have every single thing in common with the person you marry, and it's okay if my future spouse is not an artist. Just saying it would be nice. BUT I never seem to be able to find any fellow members who are into art be it male or female.

Does anyone else seem to have this problem? That you have a hard time connecting with people in your ward or branch whether it be for dating or even hanging out? Like I said they don't need to be artists for me to hang out with or even date them. Just for once though it would be pretty sweet to find members that are into the same things I am. It feels isolating at times...

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  • 1 month later...

I've noticed this problem among some of the artsy types I've known. I think LDS people are less drawn toward professions in the Arts. They stick to boring business and science careers. Especially the guys. It may just be a problem of geography. There's fewer members on the East Coast so its less likely there's male artists there. Move to Cali! It's sunny and warm and there's plenty of artsy types there :)

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  • 2 weeks later...

Why not just date them?

Because generally speaking you fall in love with people who you date and you tend to want to marry the people you fall in love with. If your goal is temple marriage falling in love with somebody who may not have an interest in going there is not something I imagine would be fun. Not saying a single date will lead to heartbreak or anything, it just all depends on what risks you want to take with your emotions. Dating can be tricky I hear as it is in that department, no need to stack the deck against you so to speak.

Of course hanging out is not dating, Elder Oaks says so. :) Nothing wrong with say making friends with these people and doing stuff together as a group.

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have you ever heard the phrase "flirt to convert"?

Ever heard the phrase part member family? I'm not saying dating non-members (remember we aren't talking High School, we're talking adulthood where you are supposed to be searching for a mate, not just finding out what the opposite sex is like) is a sin or you are a horrible person if you do it, just there are reasons to confine your dating to members (and worthy ones at that).

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I personally feel that while if temple marriage is your goal, then you should go for that. However, is being in a temple marriage that has no love, fun or passion worth it? What I mean is, a lot of my friends married someone because they ticked all the boxes. RM, tick, member all life, tick etc. They then discovered after marrying them that they had nothing in common and wern't really in love. They were in love with the idea. They then divorced.

Having married an artsy type myself (they do exist!) I can honestly say that my love for my husband is stronger than any other emotion I possess. I wanted the kind of love that I would be prepared to die for. If I had a situation where I had to choose him or church I would choose him. He means more to me than ANYTHING in my life.

I suppose what Im trying to say is love conquers all. I would date these people you are talking about. You might find you are happy! And maybe they will join eventually lol.

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What I mean is, a lot of my friends married someone because they ticked all the boxes. RM, tick, member all life, tick etc. They then discovered after marrying them that they had nothing in common and wern't really in love.

Sounds like a poor decision, same kind of poor decision marrying somebody who doesn't have your same standards and beliefs with the expectation that they'll convert because you are thinking really, really happy thoughts. For every part-member marriage where the member converts there is one or more where they never convert or their lack of interest in the Church drags the family down, I've seen the results, they aren't pretty. No its not a given, they may convert, in your scenario they may fall in love with each other. *shrug*

Yes, you can marry the perfect temple worthy gal/guy and find out 5 years down the road they're making money on the side sleeping around, just like you can marry a non-member and they convert. Its all about risks and which ones you are willing to take. I think both of us can agree think long and hard about who you marry whomever they turn out to be.

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Because generally speaking you fall in love with people who you date and you tend to want to marry the people you fall in love with. If your goal is temple marriage falling in love with somebody who may not have an interest in going there is not something I imagine would be fun. Not saying a single date will lead to heartbreak or anything, it just all depends on what risks you want to take with your emotions. Dating can be tricky I hear as it is in that department, no need to stack the deck against you so to speak.

Of course hanging out is not dating, Elder Oaks says so. :) Nothing wrong with say making friends with these people and doing stuff together as a group.

Your goal should be to find a loving husband first and most importantly. A good man is a good man.. regardless of which church (or none) he attends.

It should be your only goal really. You do want to be with this person forever.. so why discriminate in regards to religion? If life is truly eternal.. you've got all the time in the world to teach him the doctrine.

Perhaps i'm biased.. but if it weren't for my girlfriend who I intend to marry.. I wouldn't even be around the church. I'm thankful that some members are capable of looking outside the box.

Edited by bmy-
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A good man is a good man.. regardless of which church (or none) he attends.

Not if part of that definition of good is gonna marry me in the temple. Like it or not we are encouraged to marry in the temple, if somebody has plans for such then a Non-Member doesn't jive with those.

You do want to be with this person forever.. so why discriminate in regards to religion? If life is truly eternal.. you've got all the time in the world to teach him the doctrine.

This is operating on the assumption that they will convert which is not a given (yes there is the next life, this also isn't a given), if they don't then you won't be spending forever with this person, at least not as their spouse.

Perhaps i'm biased.. but if it weren't for my girlfriend who I intend to marry.. I wouldn't even be around the church.

That's great, it really is but I've seen to many part member families where the wife (or husband) was gonna 'convert' their spouse after the fact and get sealed in the temple and it did not happen that way to recommend it. And thats what it boils down to is recommendation, its not like I have any authority on the matter, all I have is my opinion on the subject. *shrug*

Edited by Dravin
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Not if part of that definition of good is gonna marry me in the temple. Like it or not we are encouraged to marry in the temple, if somebody has plans for such then a Non-Member doesn't jive with those.

I simply think that's an unrealistic standard. I guess.. it's not your fault.. this is one of my pet peeves in the church ^_^ So would you prefer an average man who can marry you in the temple to an amazing man who might be able to do the same?

This is operating on the assumption that they will convert which is not a given (yes there is the next life, this also isn't a given), if they don't then you won't be spending forever with this person, at least not as their spouse.

You're correct on saying that there is no guarentee that they will convert. However.. the next life is a given to all men. Unlike mainstream theology.. the LDS God does not punish people for ignorance nor for 'not being able to believe'.

That's great, it really is but I've seen to many part member families where the wife (or husband) was gonna 'convert' their spouse after the fact and get sealed in the temple and it did not happen that way to recommend it. And thats what it boils down to is recommendation, its not like I have any authority on the matter, all I have is my opinion on the subject. *shrug*

Thanks. It's really worked out well so far.. but with the divorce rate as high as it is in the church.. I think something in the recommendations should be changed. Or at least that emphasis should be placed on (in my opinion) more important values instead of the traditional check lists that seem so common.

Regardless.. I have my opinion and you have yours.. best of luck! :lol:

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So would you prefer an average man who can marry you in the temple to an amazing man who might be able to do the same?

That's a false dichatomy. One can find both a spouse who is amazing in every other way and who will marry you in the temple, my parents did it, I know plenty of people who have, I plan on doing it.

However.. the next life is a given to all men.

Yes it is, what I was saying is their converting in the next life is not a given they still get to choose, and if they did happen to know in this life (God is the judge of that, not I) but didn't convert they aren't going to the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom via that route either.

Or at least that emphasis should be placed on (in my opinion) more important values instead of the traditional check lists that seem so common.

I agree, one shouldn't marry somebody simply because: Half-way decent looks; check, current temple recommend; check or what have you, just as one shouldn't marry somebody just because they are good looking, rich and have an awesome car; check.

However If somebody wants to be a trophy wife they shouldn't marry poor person, if a Catholic feels she must be married by a priest she shouldn't marry a rabid catholic hater, if you really, really, really want a bunch of kids you shouldn't marry somebody who doesn't want any, and if you want to get married in the temple from day one (or within a year of such) you shouldn't marry a non-member. Dating people who don't meet your criteria of what you feel is necessary in a spouse (and we can of course debate what are 'good' criteria ad infinitum) just isn't a good idea no matter what that criteria.

Of course not all criteria are weighted equally, I want a wife who can cook/enjoys cooking but it wouldn't be a deal breaker (for the record I can cook too) however I want a wife who shares the same values as me (which includes the importance of temple marriage and the covenants made in the temple both relating to marriage and not) and who will help me raise my kids in a home where the testimony of both parents is a strength to our children, and that is a deal breaker. A LDS Gal who is temple worthy but has no testimony isn't in the cards either, its just not quite as easy to screen for as membership which is a higher indicator of the possession of a testimony and temple worthiness but isn't a given. But then we wouldn't want finding a spouse to be that easy would we? :)

If a LDS girl wanted a strong priesthood holder (aka righteous) with a rock solid testimony (of the LDS Church and its doctrines), we're talking currently not potentially, she isn't going to find that in a non-member either, won't find it in all members but removing non-members she's removing people who she knows don't meet the criteria and limiting it to ones who may, or may not instead of does not.

Edited by Dravin
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That's a false dichatomy. One can find both a spouse who is amazing in every other way and who will marry you in the temple, my parents did it, I know plenty of people who have, I plan on doing it.

I see your point.. but it wasn't a false dilemma. It was more of a hypothetical question. I'm curious to your answer about it still.. if you had to choose between them -- which would it be?

Yes it is, what I was saying is their converting in the next life is not a given they still get to choose, and if they did happen to know in this life (God is the judge of that, not I) but didn't convert they aren't going to the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom via that route either.

Absolutely correct about them not going to the 'highest level' of the Celestial Kingdom initially. However.. i'm not sure that it's stated anywhere in our doctrine that eternal progression ever haults (unwillingly) once you make it into the Celestial Kingdom. The only requirement to enter the Celestial Kingdom is baptism.. and that can be done in mortality or afterwards.

If a LDS girl wanted a strong priesthood holder (aka righteous) with a rock solid testimony (of the LDS Church and its doctrines), we're talking currently not potentially, she isn't going to find that in a non-member either, won't find it in all members but removing non-members she's removing people who she knows don't meet the criteria and limiting it to ones who may, or may not instead of does not.

I completely understand that. I simply think that.. it's all to common for mormons to 'box themselves in'. I think as a whole mormons have an elitist attitude and fail to see the potential of non-members. It's one of the reasons I refuse to step foot into Utah ;) I know a handful of LDS girls who values the mission experience over a highschool education.. and that's just mind boggling to me. Not to mention I consider it extremely dangerous.

I suppose living in the south where mormons are few and far between changes my views a little bit. I wouldn't have it any other way though.

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Its all well and good marrying 'a priesthood holder with a solid testimony' but what if that changes?? I changed. What if one of you goes inactive?? Should you divorce them?? I know a lot of members that have done, or divorced their wife if they didnt convert when they did. This is terrible.

There's no gurantee that a non-member will join, but no guarantee a member will stay a member either. I personally feel that being in a relationship is very fulfilling and satisfying, and if I had no prospects for a temple marriage, I would have married a non member. That would have been preferable to me than being single for life.

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I see your point.. but it wasn't a false dilemma. It was more of a hypothetical question. I'm curious to your answer about it still.. if you had to choose between them -- which would it be?

Considering most people are average, and I myself am average It'd be pretty harsh for me to refuse somebody who met my criteria but wasn't a nobel peace price winner or what have you. To quote a line from Elder Oaks' talk Divorce, "In all of this, we should realize that a good marriage does not require a perfect man or a perfect woman. It only requires a man and a woman committed to strive together toward perfection."

Divorce among members (non-members to for that matter) is because of selfishness on one or both spouses part not because the grade of materials is so inferior.

Absolutely correct about them not going to the 'highest level' of the Celestial Kingdom initially. However.. i'm not sure that it's stated anywhere in our doctrine that eternal progression ever haults (unwillingly) once you make it into the Celestial Kingdom. The only requirement to enter the Celestial Kingdom is baptism.. and that can be done in mortality or afterwards.

Read the talk The Seven Deadly Heresies by Bruce R. McConkie. Somebody who knows the gospel is true and doesn't convert(D&C 76:79) in this life does not even make it to the lowest level of the celestial kingdom, they will be going to the terrestial.

As far as the cessession of progression in the Celestial Kingdom, if you never get married in the temple:

15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.

16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in amarriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

If you never get married in the temple (post humously sealed to a civil wife or in this life) you don't progress. Now there are ordinances for the dead and God is merciful such that if you were the only LDS guy in an Island of female Hitlers and thus never married because there was nobody who met your standards we've been told things will be taken care of (though that's mostly talking to the Sisters). So if I decide to never get married and never do so not because of circumstance but because I simply refuse to enter the new and everlasting covenant then my progression is halted and my understanding is that yes, I'd be in the celestial kingdom and damned. This of course wouldn't apply to this particular situation as we are talking about marriage and the temple work would be done by someone but anything short of the highest level in the celestial kingdom is not exaultation (Words to Know.

I completely understand that. I simply think that.. it's all to common for mormons to 'box themselves in'

Thats what standards do, thy box you in. If you refuse to marry prostitutes* because you value chasity you are boxing yourself in. Boxing yourself in is not a bad thing.

*I'm not saying all non-members = prositutes.

It's one of the reasons I refuse to step foot into Utah

This isn't limited to Utah, we are conciled (everywhere not just in Utah) to seek after temple worthy mates (and to be one ourselves). And yes, to reject a potential mate who is temple worthy simply because they've not served a mission is not in my opinion the best of things.

I agree that sometimes members (and people in general) can have unrealistic standards for potential spouses (Dark hair, brooding, 6' 4", ripped, rich...) I just don't think temple worthiness and temple marriage is one of them.

Its all well and good marrying 'a priesthood holder with a solid testimony' but what if that changes?? I changed. What if one of you goes inactive?? Should you divorce them?? I know a lot of members that have done, or divorced their wife if they didnt convert when they did. This is terrible.

No you shouldn't divorce them. If you keep your covenants but your spouse does not God will not punish you for it. As far as folks divorcing non-members when they don't convert, they never should have married them in the first place (or stopped dating them when they didn't convert and before you made some serious promises). Marrying somebody expecting them to make a significant change in their life somewhere down the road is asking for hurt, whether it be converting or no longer beating you, it can happen, just don't plan on it.

Edit - Not directed at anyone in particular: This First Presidency Message I think says some of what I'm trying to say better than I actually am.

Edited by Dravin
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No you shouldn't divorce them. If you keep your covenants but your spouse does not God will not punish you for it. As far as folks divorcing non-members when they don't convert, they never should have married them in the first place (or stopped dating them when they didn't convert and before you made some serious promises). Marrying somebody expecting them to make a significant change in their life somewhere down the road is asking for hurt, whether it be converting or no longer beating you, it can happen, just don't plan on it.

I was referring to man I know who was ALREADY married when he found the church. When the wife didnt convert he divorced her. What a man.

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Considering most people are average, and I myself am average It'd be pretty harsh for me to refuse somebody who met my criteria but wasn't a nobel peace price winner or what have you. To quote a line from Elder Oaks' talk Divorce, "In all of this, we should realize that a good marriage does not require a perfect man or a perfect woman. It only requires a man and a woman committed to strive together toward perfection."

That's fair enough. :notme:

Divorce among members (non-members to for that matter) is because of selfishness on one or both spouses part not because the grade of materials is so inferior.

It's just my opinion.. but I also think that the average age mormon girls tend to get married at impacts the high rate of divorce in the church. They're simply not mature enough for the most part.

Read the talk The Seven Deadly Heresies by Bruce R. McConkie. Somebody who knows the gospel is true and doesn't convert(D&C 76:79) in this life does not even make it to the lowest level of the celestial kingdom, they will be going to the terrestial.

McConkie had a funny way of ruffling peoples feathers. Unfortuantely.. alot of his teachings are quite problematic and the book he published titled 'Mormon Doctrine' is (was?) full of errors. According to McConkie (indirectly, as far as I know).. Brigham Young was a heretic and thus not entitled to his salvation. I'm simply stating that to show you that even our leaders make errors sometimes.

Moving on.. You mentioned that someone who knows the gospel is true and doesn't convert will not make it to the lowest level of the celestial kingdom.. no big deal. If someone knew the church was true.. unless they were some type of masochist they would convert, wouldn't they?

As far as the cessession of progression in the Celestial Kingdom, if you never get married in the temple:

If you never get married in the temple (post humously sealed to a civil wife or in this life) you don't progress. Now there are ordinances for the dead and God is merciful such that if you were the only LDS guy in an Island of female Hitlers and thus never married because there was nobody who met your standards we've been told things will be taken care of (though that's mostly talking to the Sisters). So if I decide to never get married and never do so not because of circumstance but because I simply refuse to enter the new and everlasting covenant then my progression is halted and my understanding is that yes, I'd be in the celestial kingdom and damned. This of course wouldn't apply to this particular situation as we are talking about marriage and the temple work would be done by someone but anything short of the highest level in the celestial kingdom is not exaultation (Words to Know.

I was speaking strictly of not entering into a 'temple marriage' in mortality.

"We cannot do it all at once, but will have the 1,000 years of the millennium to do it in.

-Joseph F. Smith speaking about continuing temple work (D. of S., Vol. II, p. 166)

I for one.. choose to believe in eternal progression above all else. 'God Himself could not create Himself' so to speak. We are of the same fold.. and to disallow your child to learn (progress) would be cruel and about as far opposite of Christ as one could get.

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If someone knew the church was true.. unless they were some type of masochist they would convert, wouldn't they?

One would expect so, but people are funny. Judas betrayed Christ, Cain murdered Able. There are people out there with the same attitude that the man in McConkie's talk holds, I've received a witness that the church is true, but why act on it, you'll just do my work when I'm dead and that way I can keep drinking and watching porn. Now I imagine it isn't the majority of non-member spouses (or members for that matter), I'm just pointing out that temple work for the dead is not an automatic move directly to Go, collect $200 dollars anymore so than it is for the living.

I was speaking strictly of not entering into a 'temple marriage' in mortality.

Oh, I know it wasn't particularly germane to the discussion currently being held, I was just pointing out that one can make it to the Celestial Kingdom and not progress to be like our Father.

I for one.. choose to believe

And you are of course free to believe whatever you want just as I.

Edited by Dravin
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  • 3 weeks later...

May I step in?

I read your topic/post. And everyone elses post.

I'd like to start by saying that I understand where you're coming from. I've met alot of girls outside the church that I could see myself married to. While when I would goto YSA Institute, everytime I felt left out cause afterwards. Everyone talks to one another like crazy. But I'm left out as if I'm invisable to them. I talk to them but they just say: "Yeah ok" and turn to another. While outside the church like online for example. People talk to me and it's easy to make friends. But as far as those outside church, I bet everyone out there. Even some inside of church. Has something you disagree with. Like from your example. Not everyone's into artwork. Everyone has different interests. Some may be the same as yours. But everyone has something going on. Something about people outside the church, you can never tell who's really nice & who's pulling a act to use you. BUT, at same time. When you find someone outside the church that you see yourself wanting to marry. Remember, taking things slow and learning what they're like. Is better then rushing into it and it turns out they WERE acting and it be too late. But same time, remember the phrase: "Feild is white and ready to harvest."

Anytime you get the chance to share the gospal, pray first. And have faith. Dout not, fear not.

Who knows, one of these guys might be searching for the gospal. You could help them find it. Goodluck. Hope I helped.

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I continue t see the subject brought up again and again and thus it seems that marriage is one of the great social hurdles of this generation.

I can not help but think that people are the ones ill-equipped to socialize and and find a mate. Marriage and courtship remains the same (different flavors) but it is still a basic pillar of society; "boy meets, likes, dates, marriages girl." The same holds true in every country in recorded history. But here in the US more and more people seem unable to accomplish that task and facet of life.

Regardless, it seems that the problem lays with "people" and not the ritual. I wish I could be of more help.

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  • 2 months later...

I continue t see the subject brought up again and again and thus it seems that marriage is one of the great social hurdles of this generation.

I can not help but think that people are the ones ill-equipped to socialize and and find a mate. Marriage and courtship remains the same (different flavors) but it is still a basic pillar of society; "boy meets, likes, dates, marriages girl." The same holds true in every country in recorded history. But here in the US more and more people seem unable to accomplish that task and facet of life.

Regardless, it seems that the problem lays with "people" and not the ritual. I wish I could be of more help.

Limiting your field of view reduces your potential marriage partners.

I was in a member + non-member marriage and as far as faiths were concerned there was absolutely no problems to be had.

Everyone should work on finding someone they trust and love first; everything else has a way of working itself out.

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