So what is wrong with the Nicene Creed?


LittleNipper
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And GOD you believe waited almost 1500 years? That in itself seem most odd, do you not imagine?

It is man's work that is always frustrated, not God's. His work rolls on in spite of us. It was man who crucified Christ and killed His apostles. It was man who rejected the truths, which were being preached by His disciples and apostles. When the last apostle was killed, there was no more authority to act in God's name. This is what we call the Apostacy; a falling away, and it was prophecied of in the Bible.

It took that long for God to prepare man to receive His truths again and even then, as religiously excited as people were in the 1800's during the "revival" they still found it abominable that an angel would appear to a boy, even that he would or could be visited by God, himself. So yes, it took that long, not for God to show His power, but for man to be even the slightest prepared.

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It is man's work that is always frustrated, not God's. His work rolls on in spite of us. It was man who crucified Christ and killed His apostles. It was man who rejected the truths, which were being preached by His disciples and apostles. When the last apostle was killed, there was no more authority to act in God's name. This is what we call the Apostacy; a falling away, and it was prophecied of in the Bible.

It took that long for God to prepare man to receive His truths again and even then, as religiously excited as people were in the 1800's during the "revival" they still found it abominable that an angel would appear to a boy, even that he would or could be visited by God, himself. So yes, it took that long, not for God to show His power, but for man to be even the slightest prepared.

But the LORD JESUS CHRIST gave HIMSELF up to die. HE told Peter how Peter would die. Doesn't seem that CHRIST was frustrated at all...

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Man is not GOD. GOD created while man actually constructs, builds, assembles from what GOD provides.. When it come to the Bible, man only wrote what GOD wanted and not what they wanted... The theme of the Bible is; however, CHRIST; what HE created, HIS human linage, HIS purpose, HIS desires, HIS love. Is is not about man apart from man's relationship with GOD's desires.

Look, have you seen GOD? Have you seen anything beyond the mortal bounds of this world? Then who created GOD? How do you really know GOD's desires? Have you spoken to HIM directly? Mind you, I have met those who claimed to know GOD, only to find they have not.

The theme of any scriptures, whether it be the Book of Judah [bible] or the Book of Mormon, including the D&C, is the Christ Jesus.

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But the LORD JESUS CHRIST gave HIMSELF up to die. HE told Peter how Peter would die. Doesn't seem that CHRIST was frustrated at all...

No. Christ died as prophecied and for the reasons prophecied. There needed to be an infinite atonement made for all mankind. Christ came to save the world through his sacrifice. That was His mission. Christ's work went on in the Spirit world. When He was crucified He went there to preach to those who had died since the flood. I believe we read that in 1 Peter. So the work never stopped. It was simply slowed down by man. God's work has never stopped. It continues today and will continue until the Great Jehovah shall say it is finished, as written in my signature.

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Look, have you seen GOD? Have you seen anything beyond the mortal bounds of this world? Then who created GOD? How do you really know GOD's desires? Have you spoken to HIM directly? Mind you, I have met those who claimed to know GOD, only to find they have not.

The theme of any scriptures, whether it be the Book of Judah [bible] or the Book of Mormon, including the D&C, is the Christ Jesus.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

King James Bible

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

American King James Version

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

American Standard Version

For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse:

Douay-Rheims Bible

For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.

Darby Bible Translation

for from the world's creation the invisible things of him are perceived, being apprehended by the mind through the things that are made, both his eternal power and divinity, so as to render them inexcusable.

English Revised Version

For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse:

Webster's Bible Translation

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

World English Bible

For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse.

Young's Literal Translation

for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world, by the things made being understood, are plainly seen, both His eternal power and Godhead -- to their being inexcusable;

ΠΡΟΣ ΡΩΜΑΙΟΥΣ 1:20 Greek NT: Tischendorf 8th Ed. with Diacritics

τὰ γὰρ ἀόρατα αὐτοῦ ἀπὸ κτίσεως κόσμου τοῖς ποιήμασιν νοούμενα καθορᾶται, ἥ τε ἀΐδιος αὐτοῦ δύναμις καὶ θειότης, εἰς τὸ εἶναι αὐτοὺς ἀναπολογήτους·

ΠΡΟΣ ΡΩΜΑΙΟΥΣ 1:20 Greek NT: Greek Orthodox Church

τὰ γὰρ ἀόρατα αὐτοῦ ἀπὸ κτίσεως κόσμου τοῖς ποιήμασι νοούμενα καθορᾶται, ἥ τε ἀΐδιος αὐτοῦ δύναμις καὶ θειότης, εἰς τὸ εἶναι αὐτοὺς ἀναπολογήτους,

ΠΡΟΣ ΡΩΜΑΙΟΥΣ 1:20 Greek NT: Stephanus Textus Receptus (1550, with accents)

τὰ γὰρ ἀόρατα αὐτοῦ ἀπὸ κτίσεως κόσμου τοῖς ποιήμασιν νοούμενα καθορᾶται ἥ τε ἀΐδιος αὐτοῦ δύναμις καὶ θειότης εἰς τὸ εἶναι αὐτοὺς ἀναπολογήτους

ΠΡΟΣ ΡΩΜΑΙΟΥΣ 1:20 Greek NT: Westcott/Hort with Diacritics

τὰ γὰρ ἀόρατα αὐτοῦ ἀπὸ κτίσεως κόσμου τοῖς ποιήμασιν νοούμενα καθορᾶται, ἥ τε αἴδιος αὐτοῦ δύναμις καὶ θειότης, εἰς τὸ εἶναι αὐτοὺς ἀναπολογήτους,

ΠΡΟΣ ΡΩΜΑΙΟΥΣ 1:20 Greek NT: Tischendorf 8th Ed.

τα γαρ αορατα αυτου απο κτισεως κοσμου τοις ποιημασιν νοουμενα καθοραται η τε αιδιος αυτου δυναμις και θειοτης εις το ειναι αυτους αναπολογητους

ΠΡΟΣ ΡΩΜΑΙΟΥΣ 1:20 Greek NT: Byzantine/Majority Text (2000)

τα γαρ αορατα αυτου απο κτισεως κοσμου τοις ποιημασιν νοουμενα καθοραται η τε αιδιος αυτου δυναμις και θειοτης εις το ειναι αυτους αναπολογητους

ΠΡΟΣ ΡΩΜΑΙΟΥΣ 1:20 Greek NT: Textus Receptus (1550)

τα γαρ αορατα αυτου απο κτισεως κοσμου τοις ποιημασιν νοουμενα καθοραται η τε αιδιος αυτου δυναμις και θειοτης εις το ειναι αυτους αναπολογητους

ΠΡΟΣ ΡΩΜΑΙΟΥΣ 1:20 Greek NT: Textus Receptus (1894)

τα γαρ αορατα αυτου απο κτισεως κοσμου τοις ποιημασιν νοουμενα καθοραται η τε αιδιος αυτου δυναμις και θειοτης εις το ειναι αυτους αναπολογητους

ΠΡΟΣ ΡΩΜΑΙΟΥΣ 1:20 Greek NT: Westcott/Hort

τα γαρ αορατα αυτου απο κτισεως κοσμου τοις ποιημασιν νοουμενα καθοραται η τε αιδιος αυτου δυναμις και θειοτης εις το ειναι αυτους αναπολογητους

Romans 1:20 Hebrew Bible

כי מהותו הנעלמה היא כחו הנצחי ואלהותו מעת נברא העולם תודע במעשים ותראה לבלתי היות להם להתנצל׃

Apocalypsis 22:21 Latin: Biblia Sacra Vulgata

invisibilia enim ipsius a creatura mundi per ea quae facta sunt intellecta conspiciuntur sempiterna quoque eius virtus et divinitas ut sint inexcusabiles

Romanos 1:20 Spanish: La Biblia de las Américas (©1997)

Porque desde la creación del mundo, sus atributos invisibles, su eterno poder y divinidad, se han visto con toda claridad, siendo entendidos por medio de lo creado, de manera que no tienen excusa.

Romanos 1:20 Spanish: La Nueva Biblia de los Hispanos (©2005)

Porque desde la creación del mundo, Sus atributos invisibles, Su eterno poder y divinidad, se han visto con toda claridad, siendo entendidos por medio de lo creado, de manera que ellos no tienen excusa.

Romanos 1:20 Spanish: Reina Valera (1909)

Porque las cosas invisibles de él, su eterna potencia y divinidad, se echan de ver desde la creación del mundo, siendo entendidas por las cosas que son hechas; de modo que son inexcusables:

Romanos 1:20 Spanish: Sagradas Escrituras (1569)

Porque las cosas invisibles de él; su eterna potencia y divinidad, se ven entendidas por la creación del mundo, y por las cosas que son hechas, para que no haya excusa;

Romanos 1:20 Spanish: Modern

Porque lo invisible de él--su eterno poder y deidad-- se deja ver desde la creación del mundo, siendo entendido en las cosas creadas; de modo que no tienen excusa.

Romains 1:20 French: Louis Segond (1910)

En effet, les perfections invisibles de Dieu, sa puissance éternelle et sa divinité, se voient comme à l'oeil, depuis la création du monde, quand on les considère dans ses ouvrages. Ils sont donc inexcusables,

Romains 1:20 French: Darby

car, depuis la fondation du monde, ce qui ne se peut voir de lui, savoir et sa puissance éternelle et sa divinité, se discerne par le moyen de l'intelligence, par les choses qui sont faites, de manière à les rendre inexcusables:

Romains 1:20 French: Martin (1744)

Car les choses invisibles de Dieu, savoir tant sa puissance éternelle que sa Divinité, se voient comme à l'œil par la création du monde, étant considérées dans ses ouvrages, de sorte qu'ils sont inexcusables.

Romains 1:20 French: Ostervald (1744)

En effet, les perfections invisibles de Dieu, sa puissance éternelle et sa divinité, se voient comme à l'œil, depuis la création du monde, quand on les considère dans ses ouvrages. De sorte qu'ils sont inexcusables,

Roemer 1:20 German: Luther (1912)

damit daß Gottes unsichtbares Wesen, das ist seine ewige Kraft und Gottheit, wird ersehen, so man des wahrnimmt, an den Werken, nämlich an der Schöpfung der Welt; also daß sie keine Entschuldigung haben,

Roemer 1:20 German: Luther (1545)

damit, daß Gottes unsichtbares Wesen, das ist, seine ewige Kraft und Gottheit, wird ersehen, so man des wahrnimmt an den Werken, nämlich an der Schöpfung der Welt, also daß sie keine Entschuldigung haben,

Roemer 1:20 German: Elberfelder (1871)

denn das Unsichtbare von ihm, sowohl seine ewige Kraft als auch seine Göttlichkeit, die von Erschaffung der Welt an in dem Gemachten wahrgenommen (O. erkannt, mit dem Verstande ergriffen) werden, wird geschaut-damit sie ohne Entschuldigung seien;

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Your verse Romans 1:20 is the Apostle Paul showing the Roman Saints that God has revealed his nature from the creation.

I wonder why many references of that verse would show the nicene creed to be the true definition of the nature of the Godhead. It is clear they all reference it the same, or at least the ones I can read in english.

I find it interesting that Apostles and Prophets, called of God, and are Gods true spoksman on earth, had received the knowledge spoken of. The real crux is that His Apostles and Prophets had been persecuted, rejected and killed .

As Paul continued his discourse he pointed out exactly who and why they had not accepted the teachings of the Prophets and Apostles.

Romans 1: 21-32

21. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither where thankful:but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23. And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves.

25. Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman burned in their lust one toward another: men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28. Even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient:

29. Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30. Backbiters, haters of God, dispiteful, proud, boasters inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31. Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32. Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Edited by darrel
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As a Roman Catholic -I would disagree with your premise-which makes apostate nearly 1800 years of Christianity and it's message and messengers.

That- among other things are reasons why each of us may think and believe differently.

May our Heavenly Father bless each of us.

You are Loved and so am I.

-Carol

It is man's work that is always frustrated, not God's. His work rolls on in spite of us. It was man who crucified Christ and killed His apostles. It was man who rejected the truths, which were being preached by His disciples and apostles. When the last apostle was killed, there was no more authority to act in God's name. This is what we call the Apostacy; a falling away, and it was prophecied of in the Bible.

It took that long for God to prepare man to receive His truths again and even then, as religiously excited as people were in the 1800's during the "revival" they still found it abominable that an angel would appear to a boy, even that he would or could be visited by God, himself. So yes, it took that long, not for God to show His power, but for man to be even the slightest prepared.

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I don't hold it to be "scripture," but as a Christian I do hold it to be a reasonable guide to what the Bible says...

Wouldn't the fact that the Nicene Creed teaches you "how to correctly interpret the Scriptures" place the Nicene Creed on a higher level of authority than scripture?

Essentially, when in doubt, trust fact that the Nicene Creed is correct when encountering scripture that seems contradict it. Meanwhile, look for absolutely anything that can be interpreted in favor of the Nicene Creed.

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

The Nicene Creed as quoted above only has one flaw: "being of one substance with the Father." This is the singular point at which our beliefs diverge from those adopted at Nicea. To me, this answer seems to stem from an incorrect assumption that was commonplace heading into the Arian Controversy: The acceptance of the "fact" that body, spirit and soul begin their existance when we are conceived in the womb. So Arius would have concluded that since Jesus Christ was conceived, then that was the point of his creation. This leads to the incorrect conclusion that the beginning of Christ's existence must have occurred when Mary conceived. Arius was wrong of course. But the solution was also wrong. Jesus Christ was from the beginning with the Father. Unfortunately, the council refuted Arius' mistake with what we would view as another mistake. By concluding that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are "of one substance and one being", they refuted the Arian theory that Christ had a beginning and that he was created inside Mary. From the LDS point of view, the solution also got it wrong.

Everything else in the Nicene Creed, if properly understood, would exactly describes what Latter Day Saints believe.

You may find one of those items amusing: "And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church." No we don't acknowlege the Catholic Church as the true Church, but that is not what the passage actually says. You have to understand what the word "Catholic" means.

Catholic: Catholic is an adjective derived from the Greek adjective, (katholikos), meaning "whole" or "complete". The word also denotes "Universal."

As Latter-Day Saints, we believe in one faith, one Lord and one baptism. We believe there is one true church and faith, preserving one true set of doctrines that are right for all of God's children. We believe that Church is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Latter Day Saints do believe in Apostolic Succession, but we believe it a bit more literally. We believe that the continuation of Apostles is an essential characteristic of the true Church of God. We believe that Peter, James and John re-established the succession of Apostles through Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery.

Edited by Faded
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As a Catholic-we have a slightly different view of when apostolic succession continued-I would agree with the Apostle -Peter-and then onward. I also believe in it very literally. Our different views on Church History bring us to different conclusions.

-Carol

Latter Day Saints do believe in Apostolic Succession, but we believe it a bit more literally. We believe that the continuation of Apostles is an essential characteristic of the true Church of God. We believe that Peter, James and John re-established the succession of Apostles through Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery.

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As a Roman Catholic -I would disagree with your premise-which makes apostate nearly 1800 years of Christianity and it's message and messengers.

That- among other things are reasons why each of us may think and believe differently.

May our Heavenly Father bless each of us.

You are Loved and so am I.

-Carol

It's an understandable point you make. 1800 years is a bit off though. More like 1700 years. It is understandable that we can agree to disagree on this matter.

At the same time, we have no writings of any prophet of God from 400BC to the birth of Christ -- and according to Jesus Christ himself, the Jewish religion had gone astray and was no longer right in the sight of God. So why would there be a 400 year gap in truth and how could God let the Jews go astray? God had let his people go astray before and those "falling away" periods spanned hundreds of years in many cases. So it should at least be conceivable that history would repeat itself.

God knows all things and we can ask him to explain himself it all to us in the next life I suppose. It also means that we should be grateful to all the Christians who came before us for all they have done for the cause of Christ!!

I think it is obvious that, from an LDS perspective, God had a greater purpose in it all. Since time immemorial, Satan had thwarted and destroyed the true People and Church of God. I think that the key is that the Christian religion that emerged in the Roman Empire, though they had lost many truths, had preserved enough that God used them to prepare for a final Restoration -- one that would not fall away. The incomplete form of Christianity spread all over the world and by the time Joseph Smith was born, the core truths of the Gospel were widely accepted and understood peoples in every land on this Earth. The way I see it, the Restoration through Joseph Smith was the crowning event that all of their hard work and efforts had led up to -- preparatory for the TRUE crowning event to come = the Second Coming of Christ.

Anyways, that is how I can wrap my brain around 1700 years and still have it make sense.

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As a Catholic-we have a slightly different view of when apostolic succession continued-I would agree with the Apostle -Peter-and then onward. I also believe in it very literally. Our different views on Church History bring us to different conclusions.

-Carol

I always find it a pleasant surprise when I continually discover that my beliefs are not so very different from those held by others. It does give me a measure of hope that we'll eventually all learn to get along. The differences are important things, certainly, but I think far too much animosity and ill-will springs from focusing on them.
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One thing to note about the Great Apostasy, as the LDS view it, is that we don't believe God ceased to strive with man. IIRC, many GA's have flat-out stated (in General Conference!) that we as a people owe much to the Reformers and other men throughout the history of Christianity who, despite not having the correct authority or Holy Ghost, still strove and moved towards true Godliness.

If it were not for the existence of the Catholic church, we would not have had a base set of beliefs from which the Reformation sprung.

Without the Reformation, there could not have been a politically and theologically free society in which the true Gospel could be restored. Indeed, the Reformation was directly and indirectly responsible for many, many good changes withing the whole of Christianity.

While we do not believe that authoritative power or doctrinal correctness was to be found on earth during the Great Apostasy, we still owe much to the men and women who fought and died for the cause of Christ- the true cause, led by the true spirit of God. Say what you will about the people who initially wrought the Apostasy; the brave Christians who came afterwards helped form the framework from which the Restoration could emerge.

Edited by Maxel
Wanted to use 'IIRC'
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Thankyou for giving the LDS position without blaming the Roman Catholic Church for every wrong that has ever affected Christianity till the "Restoration" as you believe it which happened less than 200 years ago.

Needless to say-our views on church history are vastly different but-

We have the same Loving Heavenly Father.

May our Hevenly Father bless each of us.

Carol

One thing to note about the Great Apostasy, as the LDS view it, is that we don't believe God ceased to strive with man. IIRC, many GA's have flat-out stated (in General Conference!) that we as a people owe much to the Reformers and other men throughout the history of Christianity who, despite not having the correct authority or Holy Ghost, still strove and moved towards true Godliness.

If it were not for the existence of the Catholic church, we would not have had a base set of beliefs from which the Reformation sprung.

Without the Reformation, there could not have been a politically and theologically free society in which the true Gospel could be restored. Indeed, the Reformation was directly and indirectly responsible for many, many good changes withing the whole of Christianity.

While we do not believe that authoritative power or doctrinal correctness was to be found on earth during the Great Apostasy, we still owe much to the men and women who fought and died for the cause of Christ- the true cause, led by the true spirit of God. Say what you will about the people who initially wrought the Apostasy; the brave Christians who came afterwards helped form the framework from which the Restoration could emerge.

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Interestingly, Stephen seems to see GOD's glory and JESUS CHRIST standing to the right of this glory...

International Standard Version (©2008)

But Stephen, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked straight into heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)

But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God;

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)

But Stephen was full of the Holy Spirit. He looked into heaven, saw God's glory, and Jesus in the position of authority that God gives.

King James Bible

But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

American King James Version

But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

American Standard Version

But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Bible in Basic English

But he was full of the Holy Spirit, and looking up to heaven, he saw the glory of God and Jesus at the right hand of God.

Douay-Rheims Bible

But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looking up steadfastly to heaven, saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God. And he said: Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Darby Bible Translation

But being full of the Holy Spirit, having fixed his eyes on heaven, he saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God,

English Revised Version

But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Webster's Bible Translation

But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Weymouth New Testament

But, full of the Holy Spirit and looking up to Heaven, Stephen saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at God's right hand.

World English Bible

But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Young's Literal Translation

and being full of the Holy Spirit, having looked stedfastly to the heaven, he saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

With all due respect ... how does one stand on ones own right hand unless there are in fact two personages? I am not sure what the point of your posting the references was but it sure points to more than one person to me.

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I believe I have always been a created being and because of Adam's sin I have always been a sinner. Do you accept that?

...

The Savior did not qualify His atonement. Adam's trangression (it was not a sin but a trangression without which we could not be) was his, our sins are ours. Nowhere does the Savior say I will atone for all sins except Adam's and the children of men must carry it forever. My Savior loves me too much for that. JMHO

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The Savior did not qualify His atonement. Adam's trangression (it was not a sin but a trangression without which we could not be) was his, our sins are ours. Nowhere does the Savior say I will atone for all sins except Adam's and the children of men must carry it forever. My Savior loves me too much for that. JMHO

While I do believe, that my existance is the result of Adam's transgression, I would suggest you take an honest look at a concordance and look up "SIN" and "TRANSGRESSION." The verses might counteract your logic...

Edited by LittleNipper
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While I do believe, that my existance is the resuly of Adam's transgression, I would suggest you take an honest look at a concordance and look up "SIN" and "TRANSGRESSION." The verses might counteract your logic...

I would suggest that you answer every charge instead of finding things to nitpick and ignoring those things you don't like.

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While I do believe, that my existance is the result of Adam's transgression, I would suggest you take an honest look at a concordance and look up "SIN" and "TRANSGRESSION." The verses might counteract your logic...

Nit picking on the meaning of sin as opposed to transgression does not dismiss the major focus of my statement. The Savior did not qualify His atonement ....

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I think the more powerful question is "What is RIGHT with the Nicean Creed?"

Which version?

The first version prefers Modalism, but also supports Trinitarianism. The second version advocates Trinitarianism, with an implicit tolerance of Modalism.

Orthodox Christianity endorses the first version, and rejects the second version. (Contemporary Orthodox Christianity also rejects Modalism, but that is a slightly different issue.) Catholic Christianity endorses the second version, whilst mildly accepting the first version. (The Filoque is one of the major reasons why the Catholic Christianity broke away from Orthodox Christianity.)

jonathon

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I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

I don't hold it to be "scripture," but as a Christian I do hold it to be a reasonable guide to what the Bible says...

Being a former Catholic, there is alot of wrong with the creed and not being told that we can pray for ourselves to know the truth.

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