What do LDS think they are saved from?

[ErikJohnson]

My LDS parents were over last weekend (visiting from Utah—primarily to meet their new granddaughter). It was an enjoyable time (lots of picture taking), and among other things we had an opportunity to take them to a Sunday Service at Mars Hill Church (it was a great sermon—we’re currently going through a series on 1 Peter).

The visit triggered some questions from my wife about LDS beliefs (she doesn’t have an LDS background). Normally I can field such questions pretty easily, but she asked one that kind of stumped me. She asked: “What do LDS think they are saved from?”

Now as a Christian, the answer is straightforward. When we say God has saved us—we mean He has saved us from His wrath and punishment in everlasting Hell (which is what we justly deserve for sinning against Him). Luke 16:23-27 (and elsewhere) gives us an idea of the place and what it will be like for its inhabitants. The account therein would give any sober-minded person pause. And we are told Hell will not be sparsely populated. Scripture reveals: “The gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many” (Matthew 7:13).

I find her question difficult to answer because LDS have such a radically different idea of Hell (and therefore of Salvation). The LDS requisite to be cast into Hell is such that not even history’s most monstrous evildoers appear to make the grade (e.g., Hitler). Instead, their abode will likely be the Telestial Kingdom, where they will dwell eternally with God the Holy Spirit. A place so beautiful that we would take our own lives to be there if we could see it (at least this is what I heard taught and attributed to Joseph Smith —but I’m not sure if it’s really an official position or just a popular belief amongst the LDS membership). As a practical matter and consequence—it’s almost as though Hell doesn’t exist.

Please correct me if I’ve in any way mischaracterized the LDS view of Hell. And please tell me how you would answer my wife’s question: What do LDS think they are saved from?

--Erik

[Dr T]

First congratz on the new baby girl :) Next good question sir.

[LittleWyvern]

And please tell me how you would answer my wife’s question: What do LDS think they are saved from?

To put it very simply: from the consequences of sin.

I'd answer your questions about the LDS view of hell but I'm sure somebody below me will post a more doctrinally thorough explanation than I can give.

[Connie]

The below is from this resource: LDS.org - Family Table of Contents - True to the Faith

“Hell,” True to the Faith, (2004),81

Latter-day revelations speak of hell in at least two ways. First, it is another name for spirit prison, a place in the postmortal spirit world for those who have “died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets” (D&C 138:32). This is a temporary state in which spirits will be taught the gospel and have the opportunity to repent and accept ordinances of salvation that are performed for them in temples (see D&C 138:30–35). Those who accept the gospel may dwell in paradise until the Resurrection. After they are resurrected and judged, they will receive the degree of glory of which they are worthy. Those who choose not to repent but who are not sons of perdition will remain in spirit prison until the end of the Millennium, when they will be freed from hell and punishment and be resurrected to a telestial glory (see D&C 76:81–85).

Second, the word hell is used to refer to outer darkness, which is the dwelling place of the devil, his angels, and the sons of perdition (see D&C 29:36–38; 76:28–33). Sons of perdition are those who receive “no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame” (D&C 76:34–35; see also 76:31–33, 36–37). Such individuals will not inherit a place in any kingdom of glory; for them the conditions of hell remain (see D&C 76:38; 88:24, 32).

[Connie]

Again, from above resource.

“Kingdoms of Glory,” True to the Faith, (2004),92–95

Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all people will be resurrected (see Alma 11:42–45). After we are resurrected, we will stand before the Lord to be judged (see Revelation 20:12; 3 Nephi 27:14). Each of us will be assigned to an eternal dwelling place in a specific kingdom of glory. The Lord taught this principle when He said, “In my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2).

There are three kingdoms of glory: the celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, and the telestial kingdom. The glory you inherit will depend on the depth of your conversion, expressed by your obedience to the Lord’s commandments. It will depend on the manner in which you have “received the testimony of Jesus” (D&C 76:51; see also 76:74, 79, 101).

Celestial Kingdom

The celestial kingdom is the highest of the three kingdoms of glory. Those in this kingdom will dwell forever in the presence of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. This should be your goal: to inherit celestial glory and to help others receive that great blessing as well. Such a goal is not achieved in one attempt; it is the result of a lifetime of righteousness and constancy of purpose.

The celestial kingdom is the place prepared for those who have “received the testimony of Jesus” and been “made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood” (D&C 76:51, 69). To inherit this gift, we must receive the ordinances of salvation, keep the commandments, and repent of our sins. For a detailed explanation of those who will inherit celestial glory, see Doctrine and Covenants 76:50–70, 92–96.

In January 1836 the Prophet Joseph Smith received a revelation that expanded his understanding of the requirements to inherit celestial glory. The heavens were opened to him, and he saw the celestial kingdom. He marveled when he saw his older brother Alvin there, even though Alvin had died before receiving the ordinance of baptism. (See D&C 137:1–6.) Then the voice of the Lord came to the Prophet Joseph:

“All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

“Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

“For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts” (D&C 137:7–9).

Commenting on this revelation, the Prophet Joseph said, “I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven” (D&C 137:10).

From another revelation to the Prophet Joseph, we learn that there are three degrees within the celestial kingdom. To be exalted in the highest degree and continue eternally in family relationships, we must enter into “the new and everlasting covenant of marriage” and be true to that covenant. In other words, temple marriage is a requirement for obtaining the highest degree of celestial glory. (See D&C 131:1–4.) All who are worthy to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage will have that opportunity, whether in this life or the next.

Terrestrial Kingdom

Those who inherit terrestrial glory will “receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father. Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun” (D&C 76:77–78). Generally speaking, individuals in the terrestrial kingdom will be honorable people “who were blinded by the craftiness of men” (76:75). This group will include members of the Church who were “not valiant in the testimony of Jesus” (D&C 76:79). It will also include those who rejected the opportunity to receive the gospel in mortality but who later received it in the postmortal spirit world (see D&C 76:73–74). To learn more about those who will inherit terrestrial glory, see Doctrine and Covenants 76:71–80, 91, 97.

Telestial Kingdom

Telestial glory will be reserved for individuals who “received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus” (D&C 76:82). These individuals will receive their glory after being redeemed from spirit prison, which is sometimes called hell (see D&C 76:84, 106). A detailed explanation of those who will inherit telestial glory is found in Doctrine and Covenants 76:81–90, 98–106, 109–112.

Perdition

Some people will not be worthy to dwell in any kingdom of glory. They will be called “the sons of perdition” and will have to “abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory” (D&C 76:32; 88:24). This will be the state of “those who know [God’s] power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy [God’s] power” (D&C 76:31; see also D&C 76:30, 32–49).

Additional references: 1 Corinthians 15:40–42, including footnote 40a;D&C 88:20–39; 130:18–19

Edited February 24, 2009 by Connie

[Connie]

One more time. Hope these help.

“Salvation,” True to the Faith, (2004),150–53

In your conversations with other Christians, you may sometimes be asked, “Have you been saved?” Those who ask this question usually refer to the act of sincerely confessing, or declaring, that you have accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior. In asking the question, they show their faith in the following words, written by the Apostle Paul:

“If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation” (Romans 10:9–10).

Answering the Question “Have You Been Saved?”

In Romans 10:9–10, the words saved and salvation signify a covenant relationship with Jesus Christ. Through this covenant relationship, we are assured salvation from the eternal consequences of sin if we are obedient. Every faithful Latter-day Saint is saved according to this meaning. We have been converted to the restored gospel. Through the ordinance of baptism, we have entered into a covenant relationship with the Savior, taking His name upon ourselves. We renew our baptismal covenant by partaking of the sacrament.

Different Meanings of the Word Salvation

In the doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the terms saved and salvation have various meanings. According to these meanings, your answer to the question “Have you been saved?” will be either “Yes” or “Yes, but with conditions.” The following explanations outline six different meanings of the word salvation.

Salvation from Physical Death. All people eventually die. But through the Atonement and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, all people will be resurrected—saved from physical death. Paul testified, “As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Corinthians 15:22).

Salvation from Sin. To be cleansed from sin through the Savior’s Atonement, you must exercise faith in Jesus Christ, repent, be baptized, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost (see Acts 2:37–38). If you have been baptized and have received the Holy Ghost through the proper priesthood authority, you have already been conditionally saved from sin. You will not be completely saved from sin until you have finished your life on the earth, having faithfully endured to the end.

Note that you cannot be saved in your sins; you cannot receive unconditional salvation simply by declaring your belief in Christ with the understanding that you will inevitably commit sins throughout the rest of your life (see Alma 11:36–37). Through the grace of God, you can be saved from your sins (see Helaman 5:10–11). To receive this blessing, you must exercise faith in Jesus Christ, strive to keep the commandments, forsake sin, and renew your repentance and cleansing through the ordinance of the sacrament.

Being Born Again. You may sometimes be asked if you have been born again. The principle of spiritual rebirth appears frequently in the scriptures. The New Testament contains Jesus’s teaching that we must be “born again” and that unless we are “born of water and of the Spirit, [we] cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (John 3:3, 5). This teaching is affirmed in the Book of Mormon: “All mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters; and thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God” (Mosiah 27:25–26).

This rebirth is a process that occurs after we have been baptized and have received the gift of the Holy Ghost. It comes as a result of our willingness “to enter into a covenant with our God to do his will, and to be obedient to his commandments in all things that he shall command us, all the remainder of our days” (Mosiah 5:5). Then our “hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, [we] are born of him” (Mosiah 5:7). If you have been baptized and have received the gift of the Holy Ghost, with the covenant to take upon yourself the name of Jesus Christ, you can say that you have been born again. And you can renew that rebirth each Sabbath when you partake of the sacrament.

Salvation from Ignorance. Many people live in a state of darkness, not knowing the light of the restored gospel. They are “only kept from the truth because they know not where to find it” (D&C 123:12). As a member of the Lord’s Church, you are saved from this condition. You have a knowledge of God the Father, Jesus Christ, the purpose of life, the plan of salvation, and your eternal potential. You can live as a disciple of the Savior, who declared, “I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life” (John 8:12).

Salvation from the Second Death. The scriptures sometimes speak of salvation from the second death. The second death is the final spiritual death—being cut off from righteousness and denied a place in any kingdom of glory (see Alma 12:32; D&C 88:24). This second death will not come until the Final Judgment, and it will come to very few (see D&C 76:31–37). Almost every person who has ever lived on the earth is assured salvation from the second death (see D&C 76:40–45).

Eternal Life, or Exaltation. In the scriptures, the words saved and salvation often refer to eternal life, or exaltation (see Abraham 2:11). Eternal life is to know Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and dwell with Them forever—to inherit a place in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom (see John 17:3; D&C 131:1–4; 132:21–24). To receive this great gift, we must do more than repent of our sins and be baptized and confirmed by appropriate priesthood authority. Men must receive the Melchizedek Priesthood, and all Church members must make and keep sacred covenants in the temple, including eternal marriage.

If we use the word salvation to mean eternal life, none of us can say that we have been saved in mortality. That glorious gift can come only after the Final Judgment.

Additional references: Matthew 10:22; Mark 16:16; Ephesians 2:8–10; James 2:14–18; 2 Nephi 25:23, 26; Mosiah 5:8–15; 3 Nephi 9:21–22; Moroni 10:32–33; Articles of Faith 1:3

Edited February 24, 2009 by Connie

[a-train]

Salvation is from physical death, which is the seperation of the spirit and the body, and it is from spiritual death, which is the seperation of the soul from God.

-a-train

[applepansy]

We're saved from eternal spiritual death.

applepansy

[jadams_4040]

My LDS parents were over last weekend (visiting from Utah—primarily to meet their new granddaughter). It was an enjoyable time (lots of picture taking), and among other things we had an opportunity to take them to a Sunday Service at Mars Hill Church (it was a great sermon—we’re currently going through a series on 1 Peter).

The visit triggered some questions from my wife about LDS beliefs (she doesn’t have an LDS background). Normally I can field such questions pretty easily, but she asked one that kind of stumped me. She asked: “What do LDS think they are saved from?”

Now as a Christian, the answer is straightforward. When we say God has saved us—we mean He has saved us from His wrath and punishment in everlasting Hell (which is what we justly deserve for sinning against Him). Luke 16:23-27 (and elsewhere) gives us an idea of the place and what it will be like for its inhabitants. The account therein would give any sober-minded person pause. And we are told Hell will not be sparsely populated. Scripture reveals: “The gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many” (Matthew 7:13).

I find her question difficult to answer because LDS have such a radically different idea of Hell (and therefore of Salvation). The LDS requisite to be cast into Hell is such that not even history’s most monstrous evildoers appear to make the grade (e.g., Hitler). Instead, their abode will likely be the Telestial Kingdom, where they will dwell eternally with God the Holy Spirit. A place so beautiful that we would take our own lives to be there if we could see it (at least this is what I heard taught and attributed to Joseph Smith —but I’m not sure if it’s really an official position or just a popular belief amongst the LDS membership). As a practical matter and consequence—it’s almost as though Hell doesn’t exist.

Please correct me if I’ve in any way mischaracterized the LDS view of Hell. And please tell me how you would answer my wife’s question: What do LDS think they are saved from?

--Erik

I think generic christians beleive in being "saved" comes from bible scripture being taken out of context; I;E yes all who profess Christ will be ressurected. {ressurected, not eternal life} christians will be ressurected, after that comes the judgement when the bible tells of being judged by our works. {all of us}. will be judged by works. not simple profession of a beleife in Chirist.:)

[bytor2112]

An excerpt from a talk by Elder Bruce R McConkie:

Now, there is a true doctrine of salvation by grace--a salvation by grace alone and without works, as the scriptures say. To understand this doctrine we must define our terms as they are defined in holy writ.

1. What is salvation? It is both immortality and eternal life. It is an inheritance in the highest heaven of the celestial world. It consists of the fullness of the glory of the Father and is reserved for those for whom the family unity continues in eternity. Those who are saved become as God is and live as he lives.

2. What is the plan of salvation? It is the system ordained by the Father to enable his spirit children to advance and progress and become like him. It consists of three great and eternal verities--the Creation, the Fall, and the Atonement--without any of which there could be no salvation.

3. What is the grace of God? It is his mercy, his love, and his condescension--all manifest for the benefit and blessing of his children, all operating to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

We rejoice in the heavenly condescension that enabled Mary to become “the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh” (1 Nephi 11:18).

We bask in the eternal love that sent the Only Begotten into the world “that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).

We are profoundly grateful for that mercy which endureth forever and through which salvation is offered to erring mortals.

4. Does salvation come by grace, or grace alone, by grace without works? It surely does, without any question in all its parts, types, kinds, and degrees.

We are saved by grace, without works; it is a gift of God. How else could it come?

In his goodness and grace the great God ordained and established the plan of salvation. No works on our part were required.

In his goodness and grace he created this earth and all that is on it, with man as the crowning creature of his creating--without which creation his spirit children could not obtain immortality and eternal life. No works on our part were required.

In his goodness and grace he provided for the Fall of man, thus bringing mortality and death and a probationary estate into being--without all of which there would be no immortality and eternal life. And again no works on our part were required.

In his goodness and grace--and this above all--he gave his Only Begotten Son to ransom man and all life from the temporal and spiritual death brought into the world by the Fall of Adam.

He sent his Son to redeem mankind, to atone for the sins of the world, “to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39). And again all this comes to us as a free gift and without works.

There is nothing any man could do to create himself. This was the work of the Lord God.

Nor did we have any part in the Fall of man, without which there could be no salvation. The Lord provided the way, and Adam and Eve put the system into operation.

And finally, there neither has been, nor is, nor ever can be any way nor means by which man alone can, or any power he possesses, redeem himself.

We cannot resurrect ourselves anymore than we can create ourselves. We cannot create a heavenly abode for the Saints, nor make provision for the continuation of the family unit in eternity, nor bring salvation and exaltation into being. All these things are ordained and established by that God who is the Father of us all. And they all came into being and are made available to us, as free gifts, without works, because of the infinite goodness and grace of Him whose children we are.

Truly, there is no way to overstate the goodness and grandeurs and glories of the grace of God which bringeth salvation. Such wondrous love, such unending mercy, such infinite compassion and condescension--all these can come only from the Eternal God who lives in eternal life and who desires all of his children to live as he lives and be inheritors of eternal life.

[LittleNipper]

I think generic christians beleive in being "saved" comes from bible scripture being taken out of context; I;E yes all who profess Christ will be ressurected. {ressurected, not eternal life} christians will be ressurected, after that comes the judgement when the bible tells of being judged by our works. {all of us}. will be judged by works. not simple profession of a beleife in Chirist.:)

I as a Christian believe that all who are saved will be judged; however, that judgment will be for rewards in heaven and has nothing to do with losing one's salvation. We are to earn crowns to cast as the feet of CHRIST.

[ErikJohnson]

We're saved from eternal spiritual death.

applepansy

Hi Applepansy—

By “eternal spiritual death”—do you mean the punishment of Hell as described in Luke 16:23-27? Or should we understand your words to mean something else? I’m guessing the latter, although I really don’t know.

The responses thus far are confirming my initial reaction that it’s all rather complicated and hard to explain, even for long-time LDS. Per Connie’s three posts on the subject, Hell has “at least two” (perhaps more?) meanings in latter-day revelation, and salvation likewise has multiple “different meanings.” It may be that no definitive answer is possible from the LDS view.

Per the thread, LDS say they’re saved from a number of things, e.g., “the consequences of sin,” “separation of body and soul,” “separation from God.” But it’s interesting to me that no LDS respondents have explicitly stated they are saved from God’s wrath—His everlasting punishment in Hell. There seems to be a disbelief that they (or anyone) need to be saved from such a thing. Hell, as Christians understand it (“generic Christians”—per jadams_4040), appears to be not applicable. And not even for a man like Adolf Hitler (per Connie’s criteria).

I do appreciate all the responses. As always, I’ll gladly take correction if I’m misunderstanding any of this. And I’m still interested if anyone thinks they have a concise, understandable answer to the question: “What do LDS think they are saved from?” Perhaps we are really closer than it seems, and with a little clarification, we’ll be there.

--Erik

[Hemidakota]

My LDS parents were over last weekend (visiting from Utah—primarily to meet their new granddaughter). It was an enjoyable time (lots of picture taking), and among other things we had an opportunity to take them to a Sunday Service at Mars Hill Church (it was a great sermon—we’re currently going through a series on 1 Peter).

The visit triggered some questions from my wife about LDS beliefs (she doesn’t have an LDS background). Normally I can field such questions pretty easily, but she asked one that kind of stumped me. She asked: “What do LDS think they are saved from?”

Now as a Christian, the answer is straightforward. When we say God has saved us—we mean He has saved us from His wrath and punishment in everlasting Hell (which is what we justly deserve for sinning against Him). Luke 16:23-27 (and elsewhere) gives us an idea of the place and what it will be like for its inhabitants. The account therein would give any sober-minded person pause. And we are told Hell will not be sparsely populated. Scripture reveals: “The gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many” (Matthew 7:13).

I find her question difficult to answer because LDS have such a radically different idea of Hell (and therefore of Salvation). The LDS requisite to be cast into Hell is such that not even history’s most monstrous evildoers appear to make the grade (e.g., Hitler). Instead, their abode will likely be the Telestial Kingdom, where they will dwell eternally with God the Holy Spirit. A place so beautiful that we would take our own lives to be there if we could see it (at least this is what I heard taught and attributed to Joseph Smith —but I’m not sure if it’s really an official position or just a popular belief amongst the LDS membership). As a practical matter and consequence—it’s almost as though Hell doesn’t exist.

Please correct me if I’ve in any way mischaracterized the LDS view of Hell. And please tell me how you would answer my wife’s question: What do LDS think they are saved from?

--Erik

Let me answer with a question here.

Was is so difficult to answer such, Eric? Have anyone here on this forum seen what Hells like? Has anyone seen our brother Lucifer face-to-face? What does anyone really know what they are saved from when they do not even understand the Godhead. How many GA's have there been have seen it for themselves? How many non-members of the church have seen Hell or even Lucifer and attest to it? I would like to see her testimony of such position of what is given.

Try Mormon.org - Home.

[Connie]

The below is from this resource: LDS.org - Family Table of Contents - True to the Faith

“Death, Spiritual,” True to the Faith, (2004),48

Spiritual death is separation from God. The scriptures teach of two sources of spiritual death. The first source is the Fall, and the second is our own disobedience.

The Book of Mormon prophet Samuel taught, “All mankind, by the fall of Adam being cut off from the presence of the Lord, are considered as dead, both as to things temporal and to things spiritual” (Helaman 14:16). During our life on the earth, we are separated from God’s presence. Through the Atonement, Jesus Christ redeems everyone from this spiritual death. Samuel testified that the Savior’s Resurrection “redeemeth all mankind from the first death—that spiritual death. … Behold, the resurrection of Christ redeemeth mankind, yea, even all mankind, and bringeth them back into the presence of the Lord” (Helaman 14:16–17). The prophet Lehi taught that because of the Atonement, “all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him” (2 Nephi 2:10).

Further spiritual death comes as a result of our own disobedience. Our sins make us unclean and unable to dwell in the presence of God (see Romans 3:23; Alma 12:12–16, 32; Helaman 14:18; Moses 6:57). Through the Atonement, Jesus Christ offers redemption from this spiritual death, but only when we exercise faith in Him, repent of our sins, and obey the principles and ordinances of the gospel (see Alma 13:27–30; Helaman 14:19; Articles of Faith 1:3).

Additional references: 1 Nephi 15:33–35; Alma 40:26; 42:23

[Connie]

Just to clarify, the book i am quoting from was put out by the First Presidency.

[Just_A_Guy]

Hi Erik--

But it’s interesting to me that no LDS respondents have explicitly stated they are saved from God’s wrath—His everlasting punishment in Hell. There seems to be a disbelief that they (or anyone) need to be saved from such a thing. Hell, as Christians understand it (“generic Christians”—per jadams_4040), appears to be not applicable. And not even for a man like Adolf Hitler (per Connie’s criteria).

I don't think that's correct.

Without an Atonement, we would be permanently thrust out of God's presence--in other words, we would be forever in the state of "perdition" or "outer darkness" that Connie mentions. That (along with physical death, which is overcome through Christ's resurrection) is what almost all mankind has been or at some point will be saved from. I do think that the Biblical description of hell/perdition as a place of burning is primarily symbolic/allegorical (and perhaps built primarily on Jewish history/tradition--I understand that Jews used the Valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, as a metaphor for Hell; it was in Biblical times a perpetually-burning trash dump and earlier in history had been the site of human sacrifices to the god Moloch), but there's no doubt that Hell is not a happy place.

Those who emerge from the "temporary" state of Hell (as understood by the LDS) to receive a telestial glory, do so by virtue of Jesus' Atonement. I give it as my opinion that they receive this glory because they have (finally) accepted Jesus Christ, acknowledged His doctrines, and committed to be bound by His laws. Their "salvation" is not as great as those who made those same commitments during their mortal lives--but they are most definitely "saved".

Edited February 25, 2009 by Just_A_Guy

[Just_A_Guy]

One more thought:

Hell, as Christians understand it (“generic Christians”—per jadams_4040), appears to be not applicable. And not even for a man like Adolf Hitler (per Connie’s criteria).

Oh, it's definitely applicable. It's just that Jesus' Atonement is so powerful (we're actually pretty Universalist in that regard) that sometimes we kind of take it for granted that very few will actually wind up there permanently.

[LittleNipper]

Hi Erik--

I don't think that's correct.

Without an Atonement, we would be permanently thrust out of God's presence--in other words, we would be forever in the state of "perdition" or "outer darkness" that Connie mentions. That (along with physical death, which is overcome through Christ's resurrection) is what almost all mankind has been or at some point will be saved from. I do think that the Biblical description of hell/perdition as a place of burning is primarily symbolic/allegorical (and perhaps built primarily on Jewish history/tradition--I understand that Jews used the Valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, as a metaphor for Hell; it was in Biblical times a perpetually-burning trash dump and earlier in history had been the site of human sacrifices to the god Moloch), but there's no doubt that Hell is not a happy place.

Those who emerge from the "temporary" state of Hell (as understood by the LDS) to receive a telestial glory, do so by virtue of Jesus' Atonement. I give it as my opinion that they receive this glory because they have (finally) accepted Jesus Christ, acknowledged His doctrines, and committed to be bound by His laws. Their "salvation" is not as great as those who made those same commitments during their mortal lives--but they are most definitely "saved".

How does that fit what it says here?

Satan’s Doom

7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The Dead Are Judged

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

The New Jerusalem

21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city, its gates and its walls. 16 The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadiaa in length, and as wide and high as it is long. 17 He measured its wall and it was 144 cubitsb thick,c by man’s measurement, which the angel was using. 18 The wall was made of jasper, and the city of pure gold, as pure as glass. 19 The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth sardonyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst.d 21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of pure gold, like transparent glass.

22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

[Just_A_Guy]

Nipper, I don't have the time or inclination right now to write a lengthy reconciliation of Mormon beliefs to the Bible right now. Erik asked what the Mormon position was, and I gave it to him as best I could.

I'll just submit the following thoughts:

1) If you object to my idea of hell not being a literal place of burning, I would suggest that much of the Book of Revelation is symbolic and not literal. John had grown up hearing about hell as a place of burning, and I think that in this vision the Lord simply chose to use symbols he knew John (and, to some degree, the primitive Church at large) would understand.

2) If you object to the idea that a coward, unbeliever, vile person, adulterer, magician, etc. can be saved from Hell, I would suggest that this clause is subordinate to verse 6--in other words, the cowards, unbelievers, vile, adulterers, magicians, etc. who do not repent and seek Jesus (or "thirst"--unless you also believe that the people in this verse are literally suffering from a craving for Dihydrogen Monoxide).

If you adhere to a strict reading that all cowards, unbelievers, vile persons, adulterers, magicians, etc. will be forever cast down to hell (regardless of whether they ultimately repent and seek Jesus) then I don't see the point in bothering to preach to such persons in this life. PrisonChaplain's entire ministry would seem to be for naught.

Edited February 25, 2009 by Just_A_Guy

[siouxz72]

Connie got it right...In Romans 10:9–10, the words saved and salvation signify a covenant relationship with Jesus Christ. Through this covenant relationship, we are assured salvation from the eternal consequences of sin if we are obedient.

[Connie]

Here's a good Book of Mormon chapter on this topic: 2 Nephi 2

[LittleNipper]

Nipper, I don't have the time or inclination right now to write a lengthy reconciliation of Mormon beliefs to the Bible right now. Erik asked what the Mormon position was, and I gave it to him as best I could.

I'll just submit the following thoughts:

1) If you object to my idea of hell not being a literal place of burning, I would suggest that much of the Book of Revelation is symbolic and not literal. John had grown up hearing about hell as a place of burning, and I think that in this vision the Lord simply chose to use symbols he knew John (and, to some degree, the primitive Church at large) would understand.

2) If you object to the idea that a coward, unbeliever, vile person, adulterer, magician, etc. can be saved from Hell, I would suggest that this clause is subordinate to verse 6--in other words, the cowards, unbelievers, vile, adulterers, magicians, etc. who do not repent and seek Jesus (or "thirst"--unless you also believe that the people in this verse are literally suffering from a craving for Dihydrogen Monoxide).

If you adhere to a strict reading that all cowards, unbelievers, vile persons, adulterers, magicians, etc. will be forever cast down to hell (regardless of whether they ultimately repent and seek Jesus) then I don't see the point in bothering to preach to such persons in this life. PrisonChaplain's entire ministry would seem to be for naught.

I believe that when a person is saved, CHRIST through the baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT begins a work in that individual that covers past, present and future sins (committed in this life) under the blood of CHRIST JESUS. The person who refuses CHRIST's payment, remains a fallen person and his sins are carried by him. The saved individual is spiritually reunited with GOD through CHRIST and will one day receive a new glorified body and a loss of memory of that which was. The unsaved carry the stains of their sins to the grave and are forever guilty of their impurity and likely are forever haunted with each and every mistake they ever committed (the worm dieth not).

[Just_A_Guy]

The unsaved carry the stains of their sins to the grave and are forever guilty of their impurity and likely are forever haunted with each and every mistake they ever committed (the worm dieth not).

There's the crux of our disagreement. You seem to believe that people who die in their sins have lost all chance for salvation. I wonder why, if that is so, Jesus bothered after His death to preach to the onetime-disobedient spirits who had lived in the days of Noah and were then in "prison". (1 Peter 3:18-20). But I suppose this discussion has been had repeatedly, elsewhere on this board. :)

[LittleWyvern]

Per the thread, LDS say they’re saved from a number of things, e.g., “the consequences of sin,” “separation of body and soul,” “separation from God.” But it’s interesting to me that no LDS respondents have explicitly stated they are saved from God’s wrath—His everlasting punishment in Hell.

When I said the consequences of sin, I was referring to many different things, one of which being, as you have stated, God's wrath (or as I see it, God's justice). In essence, yes, I believe we are saved from God's wrath, as that is one of the consequences of sin.

[prisonchaplain]

Let me answer with a question here.

Was is so difficult to answer such, Eric? Have anyone here on this forum seen what Hells like? Has anyone seen our brother Lucifer face-to-face? What does anyone really know what they are saved from when they do not even understand the Godhead. How many GA's have there been have seen it for themselves? How many non-members of the church have seen Hell or even Lucifer and attest to it? I would like to see her testimony of such position of what is given.

Try Mormon.org - Home.

From my Gentile perspective, this is one of the more complex areas of your doctrine. I grew up with a very clear and simple understanding of what happens after death. "It's heaven or hell, brother! Hell's hot, and heaven's real."

So, hearing Lucifer referred to as our brother, and seeing the threat of hell greatly de-emphasized in LDS teachings is a stark contrast. For a committed convert to "Gentile Christianity," perhaps it is hard to go back and clearly explain what the previous belief was, in terms that make sense in the new faith.