What do LDS think they are saved from?


ErikJohnson
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What I'm saying is that there is no room for evangelization in hell ---- only proclamations.

Which, again, you have not supported that with a contextually- and textually-unambiguous scriptural statement. Your repetition of a conclusory statement does not make it so.

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I've provided Biblical support. Where is your Biblical support that what I believe is in error? Not to be disagreeable, but your understanding seems to depend on verses outside of the Bible. I would submit that my belief depends only on Biblical verses.

why does a Latter Day Saint need to only use Biblical Verses? Its like asking a professor to make a point only using elementary school text books

-Charley

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I've provided Biblical support. Where is your Biblical support that what I believe is in error? Not to be disagreeable, but your understanding seems to depend on verses outside of the Bible. I would submit that my belief depends only on Biblical verses.[/quote

Using only the bible and man's interpretation of the verse seems to bring about the wide diversity of belief found in traditional Christian Churches.

Accepting some verses and rejecting others that don't agree with you seems to give a pretty narrow view of The Gospel.

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I've provided Biblical support.

Not really. You've provided an inapplicable extract of the Apocalypse, a couple of (I presume) hymns, and a section of Luke from which you extrapolated an interpretation which is not supported by the text and which is challenged by the plain language of 1 Peter 3:19 (which you have challenged unsuccessfully).

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And I’m still interested if anyone thinks they have a concise, understandable answer to the question: “What do LDS think they are saved from?”

D&C 19 states:

1 I am Alpha and Omega, Christ the Lord; yea, even I am he, the beginning and the end, the Redeemer of the world.

2 I, having accomplished and finished the will of him whose I am, even the Father, concerning me—having done this that I might subdue all things unto myself—

3 Retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and the deeds which he hath done.

4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.

5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.

6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.

7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory...

10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—

11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.

12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the commandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name...

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.

Bold emphasis mine; italicization not mine

The short version is, we are commanded to repent to avoid everlasting punishment and damnation of a degree so severe it caused God Himself to "tremble because of pain... and shrink".

In other words we are saved, through the grace of Christ, from eternal damnation and torment of an unimaginable degree.

This is the most plain explanation of the doctrine, and the first understanding required before moving onto greater doctrine- such as the differing kingdoms of of glory in heaven. That is, it is the most honest answer to give a curious investigator.

Edited by Maxel
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Good to see you, Maxel. And I’m much obliged for your effort to get my poor thread back on topic (“A concise, understandable answer to the question: “What do LDS think they are saved from?”).

As to whether your citation is concise and understandable—I’ll have to leave it to our readers to decide if the meaning/implication of, “Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment” can be understood by anyone. I’ll confess it makes no sense to me at all.

But from what I am able to grasp from your citation, and your comments that followed—it does appear repentance is required to avoid the punishment of Hell (verse 4). I would reasonably suppose then that anyone who didn’t repent would “suffer” (“endless torment”, but not necessarily torment with “no end”—whatever Joseph Smith may have meant with those words).

So let’s try and make this practical. In my OP, I used the example of Adolph Hitler, a man whose last murderous decision, was to murder himself. Pure evil to the bitter end. He, according to criteria set forth by LDS earlier in the thread, is not going to Hell, but rather the Telestial Kingdome—where he will spend eternity with God the Holy Spirit. And yet Hitler plainly did not repent. How then does he escape the eternal/endless punishment described in D&C 19?

--Erik

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So let’s try and make this practical. In my OP, I used the example of Adolph Hitler, a man whose last murderous decision, was to murder himself. Pure evil to the bitter end. He, according to criteria set forth by LDS earlier in the thread, is not going to Hell, but rather the Telestial Kingdome—where he will spend eternity with God the Holy Spirit. And yet Hitler plainly did not repent. How then does he escape the eternal/endless punishment described in D&C 19?

--Erik

For a Latter Day Saint the goal is to go home, to interact with our Heavenly Parents and to grow to our full potential. For me anything else would be hell and that includes the telestial kingdom, it would to someone with knowledge be eternal frustration. In that sense even the Terrestial Kingdom is hell. I don't know enough to say how much knowledge everyone who goes there will have

Where Hitler goes is noone elses decision but Heavenly Father, he knows Hitler's full life story his motivation, how his childhood abuse affected him, we don't know the mental problems his injuries caused etc, very few people bother to read beyone Hitler the man the antisemite, the monster they see during WW2 we don't know if the suicide was part of his repentance etc. How are any of us in a position to make the judgement I would never be confident enough to take upon myself the role of judge in where any other person will be.

-Charley

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It will be far worse for those who have received the Second Comforter and refuse to repent or in the end, fought against Truth than it would be for Hitler.

Though, I can see where Charley coming from since his father did beat him severally more than one occasion. Same father abuse pattern is seen with Stalin. In comparison, Stalin has done far worse than Adolph in this life.

The law is the law and we cannot avoid the simple question that he had a choice. Being limited with the Spirit that is given to all of FATHER's children, he will still have to repent not only for the act of murder directly, indirectly, but the cause and effects on what was done.

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Where Hitler goes is noone elses decision but Heavenly Father, he knows Hitler's full life story his motivation, how his childhood abuse affected him, we don't know the mental problems his injuries caused etc, very few people bother to read beyone Hitler the man the antisemite, the monster they see during WW2 we don't know if the suicide was part of his repentance etc.

-Charley

Perhaps you missed your calling as a defense attorney, Charley. But tell me, how can suicide play a part in anyone's repentance? Is this analogous to Brigham Young's teaching of Blood Atonement? I thought that doctrine had been officially repudiated by the contemporary LDS leadership.

Kindly explain your statement, Charley

--Erik

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It will be far worse for those who have received the Second Comforter and refuse to repent or in the end, fought against Truth than it would be for Hitler.

Though, I can see where Charley coming from since his father did beat him severally more than one occasion. Same father abuse pattern is seen with Stalin. In comparison, Stalin has done far worse than Adolph in this life.

The law is the law and we cannot avoid the simple question that he had a choice. Being limited with the Spirit that is given to all of FATHER's children, he will still have to repent not only for the act of murder directly, indirectly, but the cause and effects on what was done.

Apologize if I've missed the obvious, but what is this "Second Comforter" of which you speak?

Regarding your last paragraph, my whole point, Hemidakota, was that Hitler did not repent (unless self murder is an illustration of repentance--as Charley suggests). But assuming Charley can't substantiate his claim--how does Hitler escape the consequences of D&C 19 (as cited by Maxel)?

--Erik

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So let’s try and make this practical. In my OP, I used the example of Adolph Hitler, a man whose last murderous decision, was to murder himself. Pure evil to the bitter end. He, according to criteria set forth by LDS earlier in the thread, is not going to Hell, but rather the Telestial Kingdome—where he will spend eternity with God the Holy Spirit. And yet Hitler plainly did not repent. How then does he escape the eternal/endless punishment described in D&C 19?

He doesn't. Those who receive a telestial glory only receive it after approximately one thousand years of hell (torment, suffering, whatever). If Hitler repents during those thousand years, the Atonement of Christ will cover him and he will receive a telestial glory. If he is so hardened that he never repents, I would venture to guess that he'll go to perdition.

And, IIRC, those in the telestial kingdom will never receive the ministrations (i.e. direct presence) of either God the Father or Jesus Christ after the final judgment.

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Erik asked what the second comforter is:

Before he was crucified, the Savior promised the second comforter to his disciples. John reports that Jesus said:

“And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

“… and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him;

“… and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.” (John 14:16, 21, 23.)

“ ‘Now what is the other comforter?’ Joseph asked. ‘It is no more nor less than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself; and this is the sum and substance of the whole matter; that when any man obtains this last Comforter [the promise of eternal life], he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him, or appear unto him from time to time, and even He will manifest the Father unto him, and they will take up their abode with him, and the visions of the heavens will be opened unto him, and the Lord will teach him face to face. …’ ”(HC 3:381.)

Edited by pam
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Perhaps you missed your calling as a defense attorney, Charley. But tell me, how can suicide play a part in anyone's repentance? Is this analogous to Brigham Young's teaching of Blood Atonement? I thought that doctrine had been officially repudiated by the contemporary LDS leadership.

Kindly explain your statement, Charley

--Erik

Its not my judgement call to make nor yours or even for that matter Brigham Young..... I do not know the entire circumstances surrounding Hitler's and Eva's death, I do not know him on any personally level.... Heavenly Father knows him and what happened and everything that needs to be taken into account. Suicide could be a sign of remorse. Plus as a basic fact we do not know 100% he committed suicide. In the case of suicide I would always leave the judgement to God

-Charley

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Erik asked what the second comforter is:

Before he was crucified, the Savior promised the second comforter to his disciples. John reports that Jesus said:

“And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

“… and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him;

“… and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.” (John 14:16, 21, 23.)

“ ‘Now what is the other comforter?’ Joseph asked. ‘It is no more nor less than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself; and this is the sum and substance of the whole matter; that when any man obtains this last Comforter [the promise of eternal life], he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him, or appear unto him from time to time, and even He will manifest the Father unto him, and they will take up their abode with him, and the visions of the heavens will be opened unto him, and the Lord will teach him face to face. …’ ”(HC 3:381.)

In John 14:16, Jesus tells his disciples the Father will send them another Helper (rendered "Comforter" in the KJV). This is commonly understood to mean the Holy Spirit.

But if I'm following you correctly, you're saying the common understanding is wrong. It is not the Holy Spirit, but "Jesus Christ Himself” per Joseph Smith.

I have to say this explanation makes no sense in the context of John 14:16. When Jesus refers to "another Helper" it's clear he's referring to the Holy Spirit (the next verse makes this explicit). Did I miss something?

--Erik

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The visit triggered some questions from my wife about LDS beliefs (she doesn’t have an LDS background). Normally I can field such questions pretty easily, but she asked one that kind of stumped me. She asked: “What do LDS think they are saved from?”

In your introduction to the forums, you said that you studied things out in depth. I'm surprised that you did not understand something this basic before abandoning the LDS faith.

What your confusion comes down to seems to be your definition of hell. You are looking for a "where and when." The more important question about defining hell is not where or when. It is "What?"

4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.

5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.

6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.

7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.

9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.

10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—

11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.

12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the commandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;

14 And it is by my almighty power that you have received them;

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.

To even begin to consider suffering the smallest part of what Christ experienced should terrify anyone. His suffering was infinite and eternal, and yet Jesus Christ's state of infinite suffering did not continue for all eternity. But how terrible was His suffering?

So what are we saved from? From unspeakable suffering and pain. Being in such a state of suffering is the very definition of Hell. So it's just like I said. It's not "where?" and it's not "when?", the important matter to understand is "What?" What is Hell? It is unspeakable suffering. It bad enough that it gave serious pause to God Jesus Christ Himself.

So it follows that we as fellow Christians believe the same thing as this:

Now as a Christian, the answer is straightforward. When we say God has saved us—we mean He has saved us from His wrath and punishment in everlasting Hell (which is what we justly deserve for sinning against Him).

To put it a bit more simply, the blood and atonement of Christ saves us from getting the punishment we deserve.

As for the rest of what you said, do not make the ridiculous assumption that we think that terrible people are going to get away with terrible things. Hitler can expect to suffer the full measure of God's wrath for the crimes he has committed. I certainly would not want to be Adolf Hitler on the day of judgment! Don't be so silly as to think that Hitler will get off easy from the LDS perspective. The prospect of having to pay for what he did in life is horrible beyond comprehension. But it is up to God and God alone whether Hitler should stay in a state of infinite suffering forever. Why should we start making assumptions beyond just trusting in God and believing that his justice is perfect? The permanence or non-permanence of that suffering is between the sinner and God alone. I would strongly caution against anyone trying to speculate about the specific state of anybody in the next life. We just need to trust in God and let him handle it.

Then there is the permanent state of Hell for those who have committed the unforgivable sin. Son's of Perdition. The Bible does not do a very good job of defining that unforgivable sin, but as Latter Day Saints, we feel we have further enlightenment on the matter. "He has to say the Sun does not shine at noonday." To become a son of perdition, one must know God as fully as a mortal can ever know God, and then turn against God so completely that he would cheerfully help pound in the nails to crucify Christ. Though we don't have the full story, Cain did this. Judas Iscariot probably did as well. Can anything be worse than knowingly and willingly betraying your God and King to be killed?

Edited by Faded
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Sorry for repeating the same quote Maxel.

ErikJohnson, you asked a question. "What do Latter Day Saints believe that they are saved from?"

The best answer is Doctrine and Covenants 19:1-20. You abandonned your belief in the LDS Church and everything that goes with that. You're interpretation is likely to be biased. So rather than explaining your interpretation to your wife, and thereby confusing her even more, just go through those verses. Rather than picking it apart and analyzing how false it all is -- which was not the point of the original question -- just try to understand it. We believe this is the truth from God. You are welcome to disagree. But at the very least, take the opportunity to understand it. This is what your parents and other Latter Day Saints believe.

There is plenty of additional revelation about the afterlife. There is an abundance of LDS speculation that shoots well beyond answering the question. But they do not answer it.

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He doesn't. Those who receive a telestial glory only receive it after approximately one thousand years of hell (torment, suffering, whatever). If Hitler repents during those thousand years, the Atonement of Christ will cover him and he will receive a telestial glory. If he is so hardened that he never repents, I would venture to guess that he'll go to perdition.

And, IIRC, those in the telestial kingdom will never receive the ministrations (i.e. direct presence) of either God the Father or Jesus Christ after the final judgment.

I see. So even though Hitler's time on this earth didn’t go well by most measures (although apparently it went better than Stalin's--according to Hemidakota), Hitler nonetheless gets another opportunity to escape the endless punishment of Hell. Depending on what he decides during his 1,000 year probationary/test period in the Spirit Prison--he may or may not inherit the Telestial Kingdom and spend the rest of eternity with the Holy Spirit (though not with the other Gods of the LDS Godhead).

Interesting. I have to say I don't recall hearing that a person could be sent to the "Spirit Prison" and subsequently end up in "Outer Darkness." I thought LDS Spirit Prison was somewhat analogous to the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory. No one in Purgatory ends up going to Hell. After some period of punishment, Purgatory’s inhabitants ultimately end up in Heaven. But the LDS Spirit Prison's inhabitants apparently can go either way--to the Telestial Kingdom or to Outer Darkness, depending on the choice they make.

Is that official LDS doctrine? And if so, can you provide a reference?

--Erik

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The English Standard Version (ESV) gives it this way:

"While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled."

Even in the case of Judas-I would leave his ultimate destination up to a loving and just God.

-Carol

Kindly explain your use of the word "probably," Faded. Jesus explicitly identifies Judas as a Son of Perdition (John 17:12, KJV). There's no ambiguity here at all--unless you think Jesus may have been mistaken...

--Erik

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Even in the case of Judas-I would leave his ultimate destination up to a loving and just God.

-Carol

completely agree I think assigning anyone to anywhere other than ourselves is what in the LDS church would be called unrighteous dominion and is in itself a serious sin or transgression.

The Lord will judge us all - Judas for a Latter Day Saint was in a very different category to Hitler he had walked and talked with Jesus and was a member of the 12..... but he also did not have the Holy Ghost. Judas started the atonement an event I am very greatful for.

-Charley

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