What do LDS think they are saved from?

[Faded]

Kindly explain your use of the word "probably," Faded. Jesus explicitly identifies Judas as a Son of Perdition (John 17:12, KJV). There's no ambiguity here at all--unless you think Jesus may have been mistaken...

--Erik

Some people from a lot of different faiths have sought to "give Judas the benefit of the doubt" and propose that he somehow meant well. I reject that notion. John was pretty explicit in his description of Judas and that description was the exact description of a Son of Perdition. I think he is one. I think he is the perfect and classic example of what a Son of Perdition truly is.

The point is, I don't see the point in making a debate of it. Some may bring up the quoted opinions of scholars of a wide variety of faiths that seek to absolve Judas of the unforgivable sin. It's all quite pointless -- the fate of Judas Iscariot is between God and Judas Iscariot. It doesn't concern me directly.

So is/was D&C 19:1-20 a sufficient answer for your wife's question ErikJohnson?

Edited March 2, 2009 by Faded

[ErikJohnson]

So is/was D&C 19:1-20 a sufficient answer for your wife's question ErikJohnson?

Not yet. Quite a number of questions have gone unanswered. She didn't know what to make of D&C 19's “Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.” At face value, this appears completely nonsensical. See my post 61, in reply to Maxel. And the question I put to him remains outstanding. Just_A_Guy made an answer to the question, and I requested a reference for his position (see post 72). I suspect he's speculating and incorrect in his understanding of the LDS doctrine of the Spirit Prison, but I don't know--and no reference has been forthcoming.

And then there's Pam's curious post (#67) in which she appears to state that Jesus was referring to himself in John 14:16 as "another helper." I sought clarification in post 69--but haven't gotten any (thus far).

Much work to be done, I'm afraid. But I appreciate your asking. Stay tuned...

--Erik

Edited March 3, 2009 by ErikJohnson

[pam]

Here is the entire reference that I received my information from:

LDS.org - Ensign Article - “He Lives! For We Saw Him”

[pam]

Erik honestly I don't think you are here to get answers. Every answer someone gives, you dispute or you question as evident in post #77. Also in numerous other posts on other threads. It's getting old.

Edited March 3, 2009 by pam

[StallionMcBeastly]

Not yet. Quite a number of questions have gone unanswered. She didn't know what to make of D&C 19's “Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.” At face value, this appears completely nonsensical. See my post 61, in reply to Maxel. And the question I put to him remains outstanding. Just_A_Guy made an answer to the question, and I requested a reference for his position (see post 72). I suspect he's speculating and incorrect in his understanding of the LDS doctrine of the Spirit Prison, but I don't know--and no reference has been forthcoming.

And then there's Pam's curious post (#67) in which she appears to state that Jesus was referring to himself in John 14:16 as "another helper." I sought clarification in post 69--but haven't gotten any (thus far).

Much work to be done, I'm afraid. But I appreciate your asking. Stay tuned...

--Erik

“Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.”

This is clarifying that endless torment is not implying that the torment is without end, but endless is referring to God - God is endless, so it is God's torment, so endless torment.

[Faded]

Not yet. Quite a number of questions have gone unanswered. She didn't know what to make of D&C 19's “Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.” At face value, this appears completely nonsensical.

Nonsensical? It seems pretty straightforward to me. Like I said before, it's not a matter of agreeing with it, it's a matter of understanding it. Your belief and our belief agree on the basic premise: Repent and receive the healing blood of Christ or you will get what you deserve, and your mortal mind cannot imagine how terrible that will be. We agree that God is a just God and all who are not saved from their sins by the atoning blood of Christ will be subject to the full weight of God's justice. We agree that God is not going to let anyone get off easy.

The difference between our views is a matter of permanence. What you seem to keep driving at is, "You believe unrepentant sinners will get off easy because they will not burn in Hell for eternity." It's the commonly accepted doctrine of the fate of the damned among Christianity. We would probably believe the same thing, but we feel we have been given further light and knowledge directly from God on the matter. He does have a right to clarify such things, don't you think? I think it makes a lot more sense -- the idea of finite sins being punished for an infinite duration seems very unjust. This piece of clarifying truth increases my love and understanding for God. We are not likely to agree on this matter, but we do agree that God is perfect in both mercy and justice. So why does the rest of it matter? We can both trust that God will deal with the unrepentant wicked and we shouldn't concern ourselves with needing to know the specifics. We can simply trust that God will handle it.

Erik honestly I don't think you are here to get answers. Every answer someone gives, you dispute or you question as evident in post #77. Also in numerous other posts on other threads. It's getting old.

This has been my impression as well. I will answer the rest of your questions Erik, but I think Pam is probably right here. You seem to have come to attack and to argue, not to understand. Can you honestly say that this is not your reason for coming to the forum?

[LittleNipper]

why does a Latter Day Saint need to only use Biblical Verses? Its like asking a professor to make a point only using elementary school text books

-Charley

Well, I would say my Bible is a living text. However, even an elementary book must provide a solid foundation and not mere contradictions.

[Faded]

Well, I would say my Bible is a living text. However, even an elementary book must provide a solid foundation and not mere contradictions.

Could you teach a Calculus class from Elementary School Books?

We feel we have modern revelation from God on a long list of things that are not well explained or defined in the Bible. Elgama hits the nail right on the head -- why should we simply throw all that information out and limit ourselves to the Bible? The modern revelation is the entire reason that we believe the way we do. The Bible laid the foundation for the core beliefs. It does not definitively answer every question. The majority of the COMPLETE answers to "why do Latter Day Saints believe _______ " are not found in the Bible. All or most have passages that support them, but do not prove beyond all doubt.

[LittleNipper]

Could you teach a Calculus class from Elementary School Books?

We feel we have modern revelation from God on a long list of things that are not well explained or defined in the Bible. Elgama hits the nail right on the head -- why should we simply throw all that information out and limit ourselves to the Bible? The modern revelation is the entire reason that we believe the way we do. The Bible laid the foundation for the core beliefs. It does not definitively answer every question. The majority of the COMPLETE answers to "why do Latter Day Saints believe _______ " are not found in the Bible. All or most have passages that support them, but do not prove beyond all doubt.

One might suggest that one doesn't need Calculus to make change, lay carpet, or paint a house. It depends on the task. The GOSPEL message is simple ----- "religionists" wish to make the simple difficult, and that is how they control the masses...

[Faded]

Here's the pattern:

You ask a question.

Someone gives you an answer.

You attack the answer.

How can you learn anything this way? Why are you here on this forum?

[LittleNipper]

Here's the pattern:

You ask a question.

Someone gives you an answer.

You attack the answer.

How can you learn anything this way? Why are you here on this forum?

How does someone know if the answer being provided is correct? One must have a standard and domonstrate consistency. Christians are supposed to demonstrate long suffering as a virture. Complaining is not shown on that list.... That's how I learn. What you see as an attack, I see as questioning and demonstrating what I see as inconsistancies. I'm not here to hurt you, just food for thought...

[bytor2112]

We agree that God is not going to let anyone get off easy.

That's an interesting phrase........when I think about how truly imperfect and broken I am, and really recognize just what Christ did for me at Gethsemane and at Golgotha, I feel like I am getting off pretty easy.

D&C 19:

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

[LittleNipper]

Isaiah 64:6

All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

[bytor2112]

Isaiah 64:6

All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Unless and until....we come unto Christ....

32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

[Faded]

How does someone know if the answer being provided is correct? One must have a standard and demonstrate consistency. Christians are supposed to demonstrate long suffering as a virtue. Complaining is not shown on that list.... That's how I learn. What you see as an attack, I see as questioning and demonstrating what I see as inconsistencies. I'm not here to hurt you, just food for thought...

I think that your purpose here on this forum is well stated right there: "demonstrating what I see as inconsistencies" -- in other words, you are here to tell the "Mormons" why they are wrong and save them for their false religion. To do so, you will pick their beliefs apart one by one in hopes that you can sow enough seeds of doubt and that some of us will "wake up" from our delusions. Sound about right?

I have not seen any real effort on your part to understand any of our beliefs. What I have seen is tremendous efforts to prove that our beliefs are all wrong. Why would anyone listen to someone with so little respect or regard for others?

You fail to realize that your entire approach, tone and attitude comes across condescending, self-righteous and belittling. For those reasons, it is simply non-productive.

Many of us, myself included, have spent our entire lives being berated and verbally assaulted for our beliefs. I'm still here and I'm still holding strong to my belief in the Restored Gospel. Do you seriously think that more of the same from you will change anything?

As for a standard of correctness, there is none better than God himself. I have it from Him that Joseph Smith was a true prophet and that through him, God restored the fullness of the Gospel to the earth. That is where I stand.

[pam]

Very well said Faded.

[LittleNipper]

I think that your purpose here on this forum is well stated right there: "demonstrating what I see as inconsistencies" -- in other words, you are here to tell the "Mormons" why they are wrong and save them for their false religion. To do so, you will pick their beliefs apart one by one in hopes that you can sow enough seeds of doubt and that some of us will "wake up" from our delusions. Sound about right?

I have not seen any real effort on your part to understand any of our beliefs. What I have seen is tremendous efforts to prove that our beliefs are all wrong. Why would anyone listen to someone with so little respect or regard for others?

You fail to realize that your entire approach, tone and attitude comes across condescending, self-righteous and belittling. For those reasons, it is simply non-productive.

Many of us, myself included, have spent our entire lives being berated and verbally assaulted for our beliefs. I'm still here and I'm still holding strong to my belief in the Restored Gospel. Do you seriously think that more of the same from you will change anything?

As for a standard of correctness, there is none better than God himself. I have it from Him that Joseph Smith was a true prophet and that through him, God restored the fullness of the Gospel to the earth. That is where I stand.

If as you say you are set in your beliefs, then you can fear nothing from me. If you have doubts, then that is maybe why you demonstrate such a berating and hostile tone. I'm not here to insult anyone, I simply disagree and that should not trouble you ----------- if you are sure of your faith.

Edited March 4, 2009 by LittleNipper

[FunkyTown]

So GOD speaks to you?

Through the Holy Spirit, Nipper. Yes.

[Hemidakota]

Or perhaps, directly vice the Holy ghost. :)

[Faded]

Nipper, your the one that came onto a web forum run by another faith. I don't think you've been very respectful in the process. In effect, you've walked into someone else's house and started throwing mud at them and making as big of an annoyance of yourself as possible.

Mostly, this is because none of your points make any sense. It's okay, I know all of the attacks on my beliefs by heart. I can see which ones you are attempting to use. But you're not doing a very good job of it. Most people on the site are not going to have the slightest clue what you're talking about. I can at least have a good educated guess based on the scriptures you use. It is never, "Wow, I never thought of that!" It is always, "Oh brother, how boring. Someone is going to try that scripture again." Your delivery and presentation has been sub par. I've seen far far better. And you do not ever actually answer any followup questions -- and if you do, your answers never make any sense.

If I seem annoyed it is only because you seem to want to hijack threads and drag them completely off track, yet you do not seem to have any real point at all with the VAST majority of your posts. More than anything else, what you have accomplished has been this: Spamming threads and overwhelming them with pointless posts -- and thereby preventing anyone else from having an actual discussion relevant to he thread. It's very annoying and it is very disrespectful.

If as you say you are set in your beliefs, then you can fear nothing from me. If you have doubts, then that is maybe why you demonstrate such a berating and hostile tone. I'm not here to insult anyone,

Ummmm ... right ... I will try very hard to restore my faith from this ...

You are welcome to think my tone is hostile. You've gone out of your way to be irritating. A respectful person would not behave that way.

I simply disagree and that should not trouble you.

The trouble is, that is THE ONLY THING YOU DO. It doesn't make for much of discussion, but it's a great recipe for people to find you to be very annoying.

I don't see the point in wasting any more of my time responding to you. What's the point?

[pam]

As the original question was: What do LDS think they are saved from. This was asked on an LDS forum therefore expect LDS responses.

I find very little room for debate on this subject. Though it appears every LDS response is debated. Why? The question was plain and simple. The answers given from an LDS perspective have been plain and simple.

That's what the original OP asked for. Why debate when those posting their responses are only answering the original question?

[Elgama]

Well, I would say my Bible is a living text. However, even an elementary book must provide a solid foundation and not mere contradictions.

Well my Bible is a text that provides me with information on how to understand a Living God better. How to enrich my life following Him, I would turn your other question on its head and ask Does God not speak directly to you???? If he is a Living God why does he only use a text??

It is very likely that as you grow and learn what you were taught as fact in elementary school is very contradictory to university level in the same subject. My three main subjects teach me this principle clearly I studied Archaeology/History and Physics. Dates I was taught as facts in primary (elementary school) are not facts they are best guess or the most likely in some cases, high school physics can actually hamper you studying at degree level first thing my lecturers taught me was to forget what you already know I had an easier time because I hadn't studied physics at high school than those who had.

In archaeology you can have one object that changes its name overtime as understanding grows - or you can have 3 people look at it and give their interpretation say what it is, the object doesn't change but its name does. And everyone maybe wrong. But sometimes you are right elementary understanding is more important remember one incident when we uncovered some interesting stones, I was unsure what I had found, second year student came along got all excited, the professors were discussing what amazing building it was when the local farmer came along and said 'ooh ahh I see ya found the bedrock' But equally in that same field the 'rocks' the farmer kept ploughing up and throwing away turned out to be beautiful roof tiles, and floors from an Elizabethan Palace.

I am no longer supplying answers to just Biblical questions - because quite frankly I cannot give a complete picture or answer with a question that ignores most of the Word of God, personal experience of God, and the amazing Gift of the Holy Ghost. I no longer have the desire to prove my Faith to anyone that is the Holy Ghost;s job, to quote from my non LDS Gran as long as you are alright with God, and you are alright with yourself, and you know I love you, really what else is important. I am a Latter Day Saint because God says its his True Church on Earth today, it is the means by which I can learn most about Him and reach my fullest potential on Earth it provides me with elementary understanding but also encourages me to seek out greater understanding and grow. Why be stunted anywhere else?,

I have chosen to put my trust in the Living God, to listen Him and follow Him, as a result I am not saved from Hell but rather saved for a life of serving my Heavenly Father who is wise and can show me my full potential

-Charley

Edited March 4, 2009 by Elgama

[LittleNipper]

Nipper, your the one that came onto a web forum run by another faith. I don't think you've been very respectful in the process. In effect, you've walked into someone else's house and started throwing mud at them and making as big of an annoyance of yourself as possible.

Mostly, this is because none of your points make any sense. It's okay, I know all of the attacks on my beliefs by heart. I can see which ones you are attempting to use. But you're not doing a very good job of it. Most people on the site are not going to have the slightest clue what you're talking about. I can at least have a good educated guess based on the scriptures you use. It is never, "Wow, I never thought of that!" It is always, "Oh brother, how boring. Someone is going to try that scripture again." Your delivery and presentation has been sub par. I've seen far far better. And you do not ever actually answer any followup questions -- and if you do, your answers never make any sense.

If I seem annoyed it is only because you seem to want to hijack threads and drag them completely off track, yet you do not seem to have any real point at all with the VAST majority of your posts. More than anything else, what you have accomplished has been this: Spamming threads and overwhelming them with pointless posts -- and thereby preventing anyone else from having an actual discussion relevant to he thread. It's very annoying and it is very disrespectful.

Ummmm ... right ... I will try very hard to restore my faith from this ...

You are welcome to think my tone is hostile. You've gone out of your way to be irritating. A respectful person would not behave that way.

The trouble is, that is THE ONLY THING YOU DO. It doesn't make for much of discussion, but it's a great recipe for people to find you to be very annoying.

I don't see the point in wasting any more of my time responding to you. What's the point?

"Respectful" does not mean to agree with. I have for the most part limited myself to the Christian Beliefs Board, so as to not to be disruptive to a religious group I understand only second handedly.

I feel strongly, as you likely feel concerning your own regard, that I'm a Christian. Therefore, I feel that I can present to you my understanding of Biblical terms, interpretations, doctrines, and perhaps even my testimony without attempting to be hostile, but at the same time not in anyway attempting to shield Mormons from a reality that perhaps they likely feel genuinely uncomfortable with.

If that is the case, I'm very sorry, but I must answer to a higher authority. CHRIST says through HIS WORD, that people are going to hate me simply because of my belief in CHRIST JESUS. I do accept that cross. I do not hit people over the head with it; however, I will not back away from what I see as Righteous Biblical truths.

[darrel]

Any who profess religion must look to a higher authority. Jesus Christ is My Savior, my redeemer, my advocate with the Father.. I know Him, I love Him, I know I will see him and be with him.

I know The Church of Jesus Chirist was restored to the earth with the same organization founded upon Apostles and Prophets and doctrine Jesus established when he was on the earth. I know the whole true saving gospel is upon the earth and is available to all who sincerely seek it.

Edited March 4, 2009 by darrel

[gabelpa]

"Respectful" does not mean to agree with. I have for the most part limited myself to the Christian Beliefs Board, so as to not to be disruptive to a religious group I understand only second handedly.

I feel strongly, as you likely feel concerning your own regard, that I'm a Christian. Therefore, I feel that I can present to you my understanding of Biblical terms, interpretations, doctrines, and perhaps even my testimony without attempting to be hostile, but at the same time not in anyway attempting to shield Mormons from a reality that perhaps they likely feel genuinely uncomfortable with.

If that is the case, I'm very sorry, but I must answer to a higher authority. CHRIST says through HIS WORD, that people are going to hate me simply because of my belief in CHRIST JESUS. I do accept that cross. I do not hit people over the head with it; however, I will not back away from what I see as Righteous Biblical truths.

What is your purpose now LittleNipper? Are you trying to dissuade LDS from a path which they have chosen? Why are the LDS wrong, and your restricted world view and religious view right? Are your beliefs perfect, and complete?

I could ask you some other questions which I believe you could not answer, even if you believed your system of belief to be perfect, and complete. I won't, as I do not believe that you would actually answer my questions. Go ahead and prove me wrong.

As an aside,I think this thread has come away from it's intended purpose,and either needs to be closed, or put back on-topic.