Christ Verses The Anti-christ


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We learn from scripture that in the last days preceding the second coming of the Christ there will be a great conflict between the followers of the Christ and the followers of the Anti-Christ. The purpose of this thread is to open a dialog on this forum on this subject for several reasons. First to determine if there are points upon which LDS and other Christians can agree concerning this matter and second to expand (if possible) individual understanding of this great conflict in order that as many as possible can will find ways to support and assist with all that are struggling and determined to be on the side of the Christ. It is my belief that the followers of the two conflicting parties in this war are not completely determined at this time (the dividing into one or the other group is currently in process). It is my wish, as much as possible, that those who would be with Christ may recognize their real allies and their accusers and work to become one with Christ and avoid being drawn in among the Anti-Christ. Also to be able to recognize the wolves in sheep clothing that are of the Anti-Christ masquerading as followers of the Christ that intend to confuse and mislead the followers of Christ.

Personally I rely heavily on two elements of scripture for my understanding of the difference between the Christ and the Anti-Christ. First are the prototypes (types and shadows) from events past that are recorded in scripture. What has happened before, I believe it will happen again in a very similar if not identical manner (See Ecclesiastes 1:9-11). Second are the prophesies in the scriptures that tell of thing that will come to pass – but since this is based on symbolism sometimes the interpretation can be deceiving.

My understanding of the conflict between the Christ and the Anti-Christ.

1. The vast majority of people will be aligned with the Anti-Christ - Those for Christ will always be a minority of the people until the Christ comes. “Straight and narrow is the way and few it be that find it”

2. The followers of the Anti-Christ will claim to be the legitimate authority of Christ and G-d. The Anti-Christ will “Sit in the temple of G-d showing himself that he is G-d”. This is very interesting to me because I believe that the Anti-Christ (Satan) will demand that he be acknowledged above the G-dhead (Father, Son and Holy Ghost) and claim that he and he alone is the only single G-d and is the entire G-dhead (the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) all by himself. Think – over the last 2000 years, how has he acomplished this?

3. The followers of the Anti-Christ will claim authority from the written scriptures. They will claim that the followers of Christ teach doctrines that are contrary to scripture. – Those for Christ will receive their authority from G-d. “We have Moses and the Prophets (ancient Anti’s reference to scripture) … Tell us plainly by what authority you come” Note that in Luke chapter 4; Satan (the Anti-Christ) uses scriptures in an effort to tempt Jesus. Note too, that those that followed the Anti-Christ claimed that what Jesus taught was contrary to the scriptures. Jesus said that everything he did was because the Father commanded him (not because of scripture).

4. The followers of the Anti-Christ will claim history and tradition proves they are the legitimate religion. “We are the children of Abraham”.

5. The followers of the Anti-Christ will fight against the followers of the Christ. “Make war against the lamb”. I believe the followers of the Anti-Christ will attempt to disrupt the worshipers of Christ by any means possible such as protesters at their gatherings, law suits to prevent or hinder building houses and other sacred places of worship, published works to confuse doctrine, distortions of doctrine (example from the past “thou being a man make your self G-d” see John chapter 10), and any other way they can imagine. The point here is that the followers of the Anti-Christ will go among the followers of Christ to create conflict – not the other way around. The followers of the Anti-Christ will be willing to play “the devil’s advocate” in an attempt to destroy loyalty to covenants. The followers of Christ will send out missionaries to every nation and people to teach but they will only teach the “good news” or gospel. They will not teach or publish concerning other gospels or in any way “pervert” what others believe; teaching only the gospel of Christ. (See Gal 1:7-8)

6. The followers of Christ will be more concerned with taking care of the poor and relief for the troubled (Remember the parable of the good Samaritan). The Anti-Christ will be more centered on doctrine and appearances or positions in social structure.

7. The followers of the Anti-Christ will eventually create a federation of all that are not followers of Christ (a church) that is the Great and Abominable Church. This organization will become so economically powerful that it will be able to control what is bought and sold in the global market place. I also believe that this organization will be able to force legislation that will change the legal definition of marriage. This organization will also become so powerful that all religious organizations will cease to exist, become part of the Anti-Christ or join with the followers of Christ. I believe the preservation of families headed by the blessed union of marriage as defined by G-d will become a defining sign of the followers of Christ. I also believe that the avoidance of debt will be another great defining sign of the followers of Christ in order to avoid the powers exercised by the Great and Abominable Church.

The Traveler

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What you have written above strikes me as pretty powerful stuff and something that I would like to reflect upon.

I remember not too long ago a friend was asking me why I believe so strongly in a church he found to be false. I told him that it was something I feel so strongly and that I can't deny. He said, "Don't worry; there are a lot of people who "feel" as I do.

Whenever I have something that I was struggling with I would seek for knowledge...I would search for an answer to make sense. One of the valuable lessons that I learned in that first week while Nick was fighting for his life is that in matters of FAITH, knowledge was secondary. I have witnessed situations where people will use doctrine to confuse others.

If we take a moment to think about ourselves and where WE reside it is in our hearts, and that is where we feel.

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Originally posted by Traveler@Jan 4 2005, 05:53 PM

1. The vast majority of people will be aligned with the Anti-Christ - Those for Christ will always be a minority of the people until the Christ comes.  “Straight and narrow is the way and few it be that find it”

7. The followers of the Anti-Christ will eventually create a federation of all that are not followers of Christ (a church) that is the Great and Abominable Church.  This organization will become so economically powerful that it will be able to control what is bought and sold in the global market place.  I also believe that this organization will be able to force legislation that will change the legal definition of marriage.  This organization will also become so powerful that all religious organizations will cease to exist, become part of the Anti-Christ or join with the followers of Christ.  I believe the preservation of families headed by the blessed union of marriage as defined by G-d will become a defining sign of the followers of Christ.  I also believe that the avoidance of debt will be another great defining sign of the followers of Christ in order to avoid the powers exercised by the Great and Abominable Church.

i think the vast majority of people won't find the straight and narrow, but i don't think that necesarrily means they'll be aligned with the anti christ. actually, after thinking about it further i think you're right; the vast majority won't believe in Christ, even after they've had missionaries, and not believing in Christ makes you aligned with the Anti-Christ who will be preaching something to that effect.

but i think the great and abominable church already exists (any church that is not the true church of God according to the BOM) and that the world will probably get more atheistic as time progresses, listening to an Anti-Christ telling them to "eat, drink, and be merry". billions of people have already suffered from false churches so perhaps that's evidence enough that Great and Abominable Churches already exists. i just have a hard time imagining the world uniting, even under satan. won't there be wars everywhere and the only refuge will be zion?

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Guest curvette

The anti Christ is something I've spent very little time pondering because it's so mysterious. In which temple will the anti-Christ sit? As I understand our doctrines, the temple at Jerusalem and the temple in Independence MO must be built before the Savior returns. The scriptures talk about the anti Christ as if he is an actual person. Do most of you believe he is a person, or a symbol of a particular philosophy?

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Originally posted by curvette@Jan 5 2005, 12:32 PM

The anti Christ is something I've spent very little time pondering because it's so mysterious. In which temple will the anti-Christ sit? As I understand our doctrines, the temple at Jerusalem and the temple in Independence MO must be built before the Savior returns. The scriptures talk about the anti Christ as if he is an actual person. Do most of you believe he is a person, or a symbol of a particular philosophy?

The actual symbolism given is “the man of sin” and “son of perdition” that is sitting in the temple of G-d. I believe this symbolism is indicating that Satan or Lucifer is the man of sin and the son of perdition. The symbolism of sitting in the Temple of G-d is not a particular temple as it is to replace G-d. It also appears to me that the actual meaning of “Anti-Christ” is both Satan and those that choose to follow him.

In the same manner that Christ has established his kingdom beginning with Adam, Satan has also established a parallel organization. The first leader of Satan’s organization was Cain who took the title “Master Mahan” that is the mirror parallel to the President, prophet or presiding High Priest. Master Mahan is the keeper of the “secret” where human life is waged for monetary profit and political power. We know a little how the secret works from the Book of Mormon. It operates in secret and assists its members to gain key positions in various religious organizations, businesses, and political parties – or anywhere else thought to be beneficial for accruing wealth and power.

It is my personal belief that all members of the secret society can correctly be referred to as the Anti-Christ. Once the Anti-Christ gain control of an organization they may use the previous members of that organization to perform various Anti acts but not include them in their secret society. It is my understanding that as the time draws nearer for Christ to return that everyone that is not part of the Church of Christ will be under the control of the Anti-Christ. What I have attempted to do is give clues that will indicate the control the Anti-Christ have exercised in various places and times in history and our current place and time.

The Traveler

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Originally posted by Traveler+Jan 5 2005, 06:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Traveler @ Jan 5 2005, 06:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--curvette@Jan 5 2005, 12:32 PM

The anti Christ is something I've spent very little time pondering because it's so mysterious.  In which temple will the anti-Christ sit?  As I understand our doctrines,  the temple at Jerusalem and the temple in Independence MO must be built before the Savior returns.  The scriptures talk about the anti Christ as if he is an actual person.  Do most of you believe he is a person, or a symbol of a particular philosophy?

The actual symbolism given is “the man of sin” and “son of perdition” that is sitting in the temple of G-d. I believe this symbolism is indicating that Satan or Lucifer is the man of sin and the son of perdition. The symbolism of sitting in the Temple of G-d is not a particular temple as it is to replace G-d. It also appears to me that the actual meaning of “Anti-Christ” is both Satan and those that choose to follow him.

In the same manner that Christ has established his kingdom beginning with Adam, Satan has also established a parallel organization. The first leader of Satan’s organization was Cain who took the title “Master Mahan” that is the mirror parallel to the President, prophet or presiding High Priest. Master Mahan is the keeper of the “secret” where human life is waged for monetary profit and political power. We know a little how the secret works from the Book of Mormon. It operates in secret and assists its members to gain key positions in various religious organizations, businesses, and political parties – or anywhere else thought to be beneficial for accruing wealth and power.

It is my personal belief that all members of the secret society can correctly be referred to as the Anti-Christ. Once the Anti-Christ gain control of an organization they may use the previous members of that organization to perform various Anti acts but not include them in their secret society. It is my understanding that as the time draws nearer for Christ to return that everyone that is not part of the Church of Christ will be under the control of the Anti-Christ. What I have attempted to do is give clues that will indicate the control the Anti-Christ have exercised in various places and times in history and our current place and time.

The Traveler

Do you believe there are Anti-Christ's in high places within the LDS church? Or do you believe that the Church of Christ is an actual organization? Or do you believe the church or kingdom of God is within our hearts?

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Originally posted by Amillia@Jan 5 2005, 05:34 PM

Do you believe there are Anti-Christ's in high places within the LDS church? Or do you believe that the Church of Christ is an actual organization? Or do you believe the church or kingdom of God is within our hearts?

I believe it is a target. During my military service I spent some time with an Inteligence unit. I met an individual that was working in South America tracking various groups (Communiest) operating to penetrate various organizations. He told me he joined the LDS church because it was the only organization in South America the communiest could not penetrate. He had been sent (CIA) to investigate and was converted. He said that the members seemed to be able to sense when a new member did not belong.

This is not to say that it could not happen - but I believe that keeping sinful secerets is extreamly difficult. I knew a couple of elders on my mission that just seemed to somehow be different. Both ended up being sent home and lost their membership.

I believe the Chruch of Christ is both an actual organization and the power manifest by the Holy Ghost that is within our hearts given through the organization by the laying on of hands.

Jesus said that a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit and that a good tree will not bring corrupt fruit. I believe it is impossible for the Anti-Christ to operate among believers in Christ loyal to their covenants. The term "eyes that see" is a promise given by covenant to those that are loyal. I also believe loyality to covenant is the only defense against the Anti-Christ.

The Traveler

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Originally posted by Traveler+Jan 5 2005, 06:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Traveler @ Jan 5 2005, 06:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Jan 5 2005, 05:34 PM

Do you believe there are Anti-Christ's in high places within the LDS church? Or do you believe that the Church of Christ is an actual organization? Or do you believe the church or kingdom of God is within our hearts?

I believe it is a target. During my military service I spent some time with an Inteligence unit. I met an individual that was working in South America tracking various groups (Communiest) operating to penetrate various organizations. He told me he joined the LDS church because it was the only organization in South America the communiest could not penetrate. He had been sent (CIA) to investigate and was converted. He said that the members seemed to be able to sense when a new member did not belong.

This is not to say that it could not happen - but I believe that keeping sinful secerets is extreamly difficult. I knew a couple of elders on my mission that just seemed to somehow be different. Both ended up being sent home and lost their membership.

I believe the Chruch of Christ is both an actual organization and the power manifest by the Holy Ghost that is within our hearts given through the organization by the laying on of hands.

Jesus said that a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit and that a good tree will not bring corrupt fruit. I believe it is impossible for the Anti-Christ to operate among believers in Christ loyal to their covenants. The term "eyes that see" is a promise given by covenant to those that are loyal. I also believe loyality to covenant is the only defense against the Anti-Christ.

The Traveler

Nicely put Traveler. I agree.

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Originally posted by Spencer@Jan 10 2005, 11:16 AM

I hope youre not refering to our church, cause this is not the place for that kind of unecessary ridicule. Please clarify.

There is always wickedness in high places:

Eph. 6: 12

12 For we awrestle• not bagainst cflesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the drulers• of the edarkness of this world, against spiritual fwickedness in high places.

Do you profess to judge and know everyone who is in any calling just on the basis of their status? Who do you think you are?

John 7: 24

24 aJudge not according to bthe• cappearance•, but judge righteous judgment.

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Yes, but he specified the 1800's which seem to narrow the pickings to that century, leading me to believe he is just talking about our church.

If his statement was more broad such as yours.

"There is always wickedness in high places"

I would not be lead to believe he was talking only about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Spencer

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Originally posted by Spencer@Jan 10 2005, 04:16 PM

Yes, but he specified the 1800's which seem to narrow the pickings to that century, leading me to believe he is just talking about our church.

If his statement was more broad such as yours.

"There is always wickedness in high places"

I would not be lead to believe he was talking only about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Spencer

Isn't it important to identify the wolves in sheeps clothing within the church? Are we to take warning or not in this church? And it wasn't just the 1800's, it is FROM the 1800's

3rd Nephi 14:

15 Beware of afalse• prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their afruits•. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every agood• tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that abringeth• not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore, by their afruits• ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall aenter• into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.

22 Many will asay• to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name, and in thy name have cast out devils, and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will aI• profess unto them: I never bknew• you; cdepart• from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore, whoso heareth these sayings of mine and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, who built his house upon a arock—

25 And the arain• descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it bfell• not, for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine and doeth them not shall be likened unto a afoolish man, who built his house upon the bsand•—

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell, and great was the fall of it.

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Originally posted by Strawberry Fields+Jan 10 2005, 09:00 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Strawberry Fields @ Jan 10 2005, 09:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Tr2@Jan 10 2005, 04:28 AM

Do you believe there are Anti-Christ's in high places within the LDS church?

I believe this has been the case since the 1800's

Can you say thin ice?

Amilla,

I am with Spencer on this. It wasn't your question that was "off" it was Tridents reply. Trident has a history of bashing the LDS Church and it goes back long before you joined us.

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Originally posted by Tr2@Jan 10 2005, 02:28 AM

Do you believe there are Anti-Christ's in high places within the LDS church?

I believe this has been the case since the 1800's
Yes but we must point out that you also believe that the Bermuda Triangle phenomenon was cause by malicious spirit from the slave trade days and stopped once some Christian ministers rowed out in a boat and repented on behalf of the slavers.

Note: to any new readers, that's what he actually believes so, just to keep his other beliefs in context.

Nice doing business with you General Tucker, come again.

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Originally posted by Spencer@Jan 10 2005, 02:16 PM

Yes, but he specified the 1800's which seem to narrow the pickings to that century, leading me to believe he is just talking about our church.

If his statement was more broad such as yours.

"There is always wickedness in high places"

I would not be lead to believe he was talking only about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Spencer

Spencer,

Yes he is referring to our Church just as Amilia thinks that there is evil at the highest levels of our Church - least ways in our Churches policies.

Sub-Commander Tucker is just making a broad-sided insult while Amilia is truly convince that evil lurks amoung the Brethern.

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Originally posted by Snow+Jan 11 2005, 12:23 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Jan 11 2005, 12:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Spencer@Jan 10 2005, 02:16 PM

Yes, but he specified the 1800's which seem to narrow the pickings to that century, leading me to believe he is just talking about our church.

If his statement was more broad such as yours.

"There is always wickedness in high places"

I would not be lead to believe he was talking only about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Spencer

Spencer,

Yes he is referring to our Church just as Amilia thinks that there is evil at the highest levels of our Church - least ways in our Churches policies.

Sub-Commander Tucker is just making a broad-sided insult while Amilia is truly convince that evil lurks amoung the Brethern.

Don't you remember Paul Dunn? Or Elder Oaks who lied outright to the press? How innocent was those?

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Guest curvette

Originally posted by Amillia@Jan 11 2005, 09:53 AM

Don't you remember Paul Dunn? Or Elder Oaks who lied outright to the press? How innocent was those?

It's a quantum leap from lying to being the anti Christ. If doing anything contrary to Christ's teachings makes an anti Christ than we are ALL anti Christs.
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We learn from scripture that in the last days preceding the second coming of the Christ there will be a great conflict between the followers of the Christ and the followers of the Anti-Christ. The purpose of this thread is to open a dialog on this forum on this subject for several reasons. First to determine if there are points upon which LDS and other Christians can agree concerning this matter and second to expand (if possible) individual understanding of this great conflict in order that as many as possible can will find ways to support and assist with all that are struggling and determined to be on the side of the Christ. It is my belief that the followers of the two conflicting parties in this war are not completely determined at this time (the dividing into one or the other group is currently in process). It is my wish, as much as possible, that those who would be with Christ may recognize their real allies and their accusers and work to become one with Christ and avoid being drawn in among the Anti-Christ. Also to be able to recognize the wolves in sheep clothing that are of the Anti-Christ masquerading as followers of the Christ that intend to confuse and mislead the followers of Christ.

Personally I rely heavily on two elements of scripture for my understanding of the difference between the Christ and the Anti-Christ. First are the prototypes (types and shadows) from events past that are recorded in scripture. What has happened before, I believe it will happen again in a very similar if not identical manner (See Ecclesiastes 1:9-11). Second are the prophesies in the scriptures that tell of thing that will come to pass – but since this is based on symbolism sometimes the interpretation can be deceiving.

My understanding of the conflict between the Christ and the Anti-Christ.

1. The vast majority of people will be aligned with the Anti-Christ - Those for Christ will always be a minority of the people until the Christ comes. “Straight and narrow is the way and few it be that find it”

2. The followers of the Anti-Christ will claim to be the legitimate authority of Christ and G-d. The Anti-Christ will “Sit in the temple of G-d showing himself that he is G-d”. This is very interesting to me because I believe that the Anti-Christ (Satan) will demand that he be acknowledged above the G-dhead (Father, Son and Holy Ghost) and claim that he and he alone is the only single G-d and is the entire G-dhead (the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) all by himself. Think – over the last 2000 years, how has he acomplished this?

3. The followers of the Anti-Christ will claim authority from the written scriptures. They will claim that the followers of Christ teach doctrines that are contrary to scripture. – Those for Christ will receive their authority from G-d. “We have Moses and the Prophets (ancient Anti’s reference to scripture) … Tell us plainly by what authority you come” Note that in Luke chapter 4; Satan (the Anti-Christ) uses scriptures in an effort to tempt Jesus. Note too, that those that followed the Anti-Christ claimed that what Jesus taught was contrary to the scriptures. Jesus said that everything he did was because the Father commanded him (not because of scripture).

4. The followers of the Anti-Christ will claim history and tradition proves they are the legitimate religion. “We are the children of Abraham”.

5. The followers of the Anti-Christ will fight against the followers of the Christ. “Make war against the lamb”. I believe the followers of the Anti-Christ will attempt to disrupt the worshipers of Christ by any means possible such as protesters at their gatherings, law suits to prevent or hinder building houses and other sacred places of worship, published works to confuse doctrine, distortions of doctrine (example from the past “thou being a man make your self G-d” see John chapter 10), and any other way they can imagine. The point here is that the followers of the Anti-Christ will go among the followers of Christ to create conflict – not the other way around. The followers of the Anti-Christ will be willing to play “the devil’s advocate” in an attempt to destroy loyalty to covenants. The followers of Christ will send out missionaries to every nation and people to teach but they will only teach the “good news” or gospel. They will not teach or publish concerning other gospels or in any way “pervert” what others believe; teaching only the gospel of Christ. (See Gal 1:7-8)

6. The followers of Christ will be more concerned with taking care of the poor and relief for the troubled (Remember the parable of the good Samaritan). The Anti-Christ will be more centered on doctrine and appearances or positions in social structure.

7. The followers of the Anti-Christ will eventually create a federation of all that are not followers of Christ (a church) that is the Great and Abominable Church. This organization will become so economically powerful that it will be able to control what is bought and sold in the global market place. I also believe that this organization will be able to force legislation that will change the legal definition of marriage. This organization will also become so powerful that all religious organizations will cease to exist, become part of the Anti-Christ or join with the followers of Christ. I believe the preservation of families headed by the blessed union of marriage as defined by G-d will become a defining sign of the followers of Christ. I also believe that the avoidance of debt will be another great defining sign of the followers of Christ in order to avoid the powers exercised by the Great and Abominable Church.

The Traveler

1. The vast majority of people will be aligned with the Anti-Christ - Those for Christ will always be a minority of the people until the Christ comes. “Straight and narrow is the way and few it be that find it”

Well, I guess it won't happen in the United State or Europe since the majority of us are Christians.

2. The followers of the Anti-Christ will claim to be the legitimate authority of Christ and G-d. The Anti-Christ will “Sit in the temple of G-d showing himself that he is G-d”. This is very interesting to me because I believe that the Anti-Christ (Satan) will demand that he be acknowledged above the G-dhead (Father, Son and Holy Ghost) and claim that he and he alone is the only single G-d and is the entire G-dhead (the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) all by himself. Think – over the last 2000 years, how has he acomplished this?

Since you think the Anti-Christ is Satan, for anything to be different I suppose we would have to prove that the world is a worse place than it was a few hundred or even thousand years ago. By most measures, it is actually better now. More people go to church than in the past, more humanitarian aid to the poor than in the past, there have always been wars. Less hunger in the world now than in the past. Seems like a better place to me.

3. The followers of the Anti-Christ will claim authority from the written scriptures. They will claim that the followers of Christ teach doctrines that are contrary to scripture. – Those for Christ will receive their authority from G-d. “We have Moses and the Prophets (ancient Anti’s reference to scripture) … Tell us plainly by what authority you come” Note that in Luke chapter 4; Satan (the Anti-Christ) uses scriptures in an effort to tempt Jesus. Note too, that those that followed the Anti-Christ claimed that what Jesus taught was contrary to the scriptures. Jesus said that everything he did was because the Father commanded him (not because of scripture).

When WASN'T there a time when every Tom, ###### and Harry claimed to have God on his side? Nothing much has changed there.

4. The followers of the Anti-Christ will claim history and tradition proves they are the legitimate religion. “We are the children of Abraham”.

Mormons fall into that category too. Virtually all Muslim and Christian religions make that claim. What's new? And the other Eastern Religions could care less about the whole issue. Again, what's new?

5. The followers of the Anti-Christ will fight against the followers of the Christ. “Make war against the lamb”. I believe the followers of the Anti-Christ will attempt to disrupt the worshipers of Christ by any means possible such as protesters at their gatherings, law suits to prevent or hinder building houses and other sacred places of worship, published works to confuse doctrine, distortions of doctrine (example from the past “thou being a man make your self G-d” see John chapter 10), and any other way they can imagine. The point here is that the followers of the Anti-Christ will go among the followers of Christ to create conflict – not the other way around. The followers of the Anti-Christ will be willing to play “the devil’s advocate” in an attempt to destroy loyalty to covenants. The followers of Christ will send out missionaries to every nation and people to teach but they will only teach the “good news” or gospel. They will not teach or publish concerning other gospels or in any way “pervert” what others believe; teaching only the gospel of Christ. (See Gal 1:7-8)

Basically, where your are leading us is down the path to a forgone conclusion on your part. That is, that your religion is the right one and everyone else is your enemy to the extent they actively disagree with you. By definition, if you are convinced that your religion EXCLUDES the possibility of any other religion have any legitimacy, then all other religions are your Anti-Christ. But, you see, you are setting it up that way by assuming that only your religion is legitimate.

6. The followers of Christ will be more concerned with taking care of the poor and relief for the troubled (Remember the parable of the good Samaritan). The Anti-Christ will be more centered on doctrine and appearances or positions in social structure.

This is too vague a statement to be able to address. What religion DOESN"T preach and to at least some extent care for the poor? A case could be made that the LDS Church is very much centered on doctrines, appearances and positions. Nevertheless, the Church does a lot of practical good too, so I don't criticize it on that basis, but the church is definitely into doctrine, PR and appearances.

7. The followers of the Anti-Christ will eventually create a federation of all that are not followers of Christ (a church) that is the Great and Abominable Church. This organization will become so economically powerful that it will be able to control what is bought and sold in the global market place. I also believe that this organization will be able to force legislation that will change the legal definition of marriage. This organization will also become so powerful that all religious organizations will cease to exist, become part of the Anti-Christ or join with the followers of Christ. I believe the preservation of families headed by the blessed union of marriage as defined by G-d will become a defining sign of the followers of Christ. I also believe that the avoidance of debt will be another great defining sign of the followers of Christ in order to avoid the powers exercised by the Great and Abominable Church.

In other words, any one that sees the world differently than you is Abominable. If Jesus' message is Peace, you aren't carrying it.

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Originally posted by Cal@Jan 12 2005, 06:34 PM

When WASN'T there a time when every Tom, ###### and Harry claimed to have God on his side? Nothing much has changed there.

Mormons fall into that category too. Virtually all Muslim and Christian religions make that claim. What's new? And the other Eastern Religions could care less about the whole issue. Again, what's new?

5. The followers of the Anti-Christ will fight against the followers of the Christ. “Make war against the lamb”. I believe the followers of the Anti-Christ will attempt to disrupt the worshipers of Christ by any means possible such as protesters at their gatherings, law suits to prevent or hinder building houses and other sacred places of worship, published works to confuse doctrine, distortions of doctrine (example from the past “thou being a man make your self G-d” see John chapter 10), and any other way they can imagine. The point here is that the followers of the Anti-Christ will go among the followers of Christ to create conflict – not the other way around. The followers of the Anti-Christ will be willing to play “the devil’s advocate” in an attempt to destroy loyalty to covenants. The followers of Christ will send out missionaries to every nation and people to teach but they will only teach the “good news” or gospel. They will not teach or publish concerning other gospels or in any way “pervert” what others believe; teaching only the gospel of Christ. (See Gal 1:7-8)

The Traveler

1. The vast majority of people will be aligned with the Anti-Christ - Those for Christ will always be a minority of the people until the Christ comes. “Straight and narrow is the way and few it be that find it”

Well, I guess it won't happen in the United State or Europe since the majority of us are Christians.

You missed the point - the Ancient Anti-Christ were all Hebrews and of the house of Israel and claimed be be under covenant with G-d. A modern day Pharisee will be connected to "traditional Christianity" in the same manner ancient Anti-Christ (Scribes and Pharisees) were conected to the traditions of "Israel". But just being a scribe or Pharisee did not make them Anti-Christ. There was more to it.

2.

Since you think the Anti-Christ is Satan, for anything to be different I suppose we would have to prove that the world is a worse place than it was a few hundred or even thousand years ago. By most measures, it is actually better now. More people go to church than in the past, more humanitarian aid to the poor than in the past, there have always been wars. Less hunger in the world now than in the past. Seems like a better place to me.

QUOTE]

The Pharisees said almost this same thing in John Chapter 8. They could argue that they were much better than the Samaritans using the same logic you used. Jesus responded that it is not a matter of being better than someone else it is doing the will of the Father. I do not believe it is the will of the Father to treat someone in a manner that you would not have them treat you. If you want to worship according to your beliefs then if you are really a follower of Jesus you will grant the same to others. The Anti-Christ will try to disrupt other's faith. And Yes I believe someone LDS can be part of the Anti-Christ but I do not believe the ministers pretending to be Christian at Main St. Plazza trying to disrupt LDS that had to come in reverence are anything related to Christ.

As for the rest of your post I will not comment except that you did nothing to indicate how one might identify a Christian from the Anti-Christ. From your comments it appears if they have "sheep" clothing they must not be a wolf. I do not agree. Since you do not indicate how you determine wolves from sheep - I assume you have no method?

The Traveler

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