A question about Satan's plan


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How would Satan have implemented his proposal to save all? (Leave additional comments if you like)  

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  1. 1. How would Satan have implemented his proposal to save all? (Leave additional comments if you like)

    • Require each person to atone for their own sins
    • Don't hold anyone accountable / Redeem all unconditionally
    • Force everyone to be good or to comply with the rules
    • Change the rules or laws so that nothing would be evil
    • Something else (please explain)
    • Don't know


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Traveler, I thank you for your response, but I do not share your view. I do not believe men have any predisposition to selfishness. We are taught selfishness. Locke explained in his treatise on government that man has "a desire of happiness, and an aversion to misery". However, this is different from selfishness. As Jesus said of children: "of such is the kingdom of heaven" (Matt 19:14).

Selfishness must be chosen. Sin must be chosen. Those without knowledge of the law cannot choose to follow it. Locke actually wrote on the subject in his 1690 treatise as well. Speaking of children, he said they were born "ignorant and without the use of reason, they were not presently under that law; for nobody can be under a law, which is not promulgated to him; and this law being promulgated or made known by reason only, he that is not come to the use of his reason, cannot be said to be under this law" (Locke sec. 57).

Locke did not have benefit of the Book of Mormon which was published over a century after his death. "Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me" (Moro. 8:8).

Also look at verse 22: "For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law".

The newborn child is neither naturally selfish nor charitible. The child is a blank slate capable of learning all things. He is not any more selfish than he is a soccer fan or a lover of books.

We are not destructive by nature, such a nature is not the cause of all destructive forces in society. Such false doctrine was strongly repudiated by the prophet Joseph Smith. Our second Article of Faith is a straight forward disavowal of it. The LORD said also: "Wherefore, they cannot sin, for power is not given unto Satan to tempt little children, until they begin to become accountable before me" (D&C 29:47) .

-a-train

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I'm back! And I have some more thoughts on 2 Nephi Chapter 2. I believe that verse 23 is noteworthy. Referring to the state of Man before the Fall: "wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin." Prior to the Fall, the only Law that Adam and Eve had was that which forbade them to eat the forbidden fruit. Aside from that, they didn't know any right from wrong. They were naked and felt no sin in it. After eating the fruit, they were given the knowledge of good and evil, and it was only then that they were capable of sin. Assuming that man could have found a way to procreate under pre-Fall conditions, it can be assumed that we would have been without any moral guidance or conscience, just as Adam and Eve were. Without this conscious knowledge of good and evil, there can be no agency because there is nothing to choose from. No opposites, no right and wrong, just pure innocence and ignorance.

Side note (off-topic): As an atheist, I don't believe in the story of Eden. I do, however, find the metaphors and allegory quite fascinating. I think the story of the Fall is a very interesting metaphor for the emergence of the human race into consciousness and self-awareness as our hominid ancestors gradually evolved cognitively. I truly believe that there was a time when early humans (cavemen, if you will) lacked the traits that we would call human nature. They were nothing more than intellectually advanced animals who were guided by primitive instinct rather than a human sense of right and wrong. At some point, our awareness increased and man began creating religion to explain the things of nature that he wasn't capable of understanding, was well as to provide a higher power to answer to and provide moral guidance, just as Adam and Eve were instructed to multiply and replenish the Earth immediately following the Fall. Anywho, just some additional thoughts. Nothing that really relates to the topic at hand (maybe).

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Interesting related scriptures:

Moses 4:

3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;

D&C 29:

36 And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;

The implication as to when man received his agency, according to this scripture, is interesting. It appears here that man had agency before he partook of the fruit, since agency was demonstrated before Adam was even here.

So, from my point of view, it could be worded that some chose to exercise their agency to not choose God, while others continued to "give" their agency to God, not making the choice.

I believe in a pure definition of agency. I believe that agency is man's ability to choose against the things of God, or more generally, that he has that ability at all times. Not that agency is the choice itself, but the ability to choose. Christ never exercised His agency (or ability) to choose against His Father's will, making Him perfect.

So, the confusion with agency, in my opinion, is that agency is not when man chooses against God (that is called sin), but that he always has the ability to do so.

So, agency exists, and the goal of this life is to have the proof of God and Satan shut off from us (veil), and see which we will incline ourselves to. Hence all the scriptures saying we cannot choose both God and Satan, we have to choose one or the other.

So, Satan did not want to remove our choice of God, he wanted to go deeper. He wanted to remove the ability we had to choose God. He wanted to force us to choose God, by removing our ability to choose, with him being the savior.

He wanted to make that choice for us.

I believe he actually thought it could work. Where he failed was he didn't trust the Father who told him it could not work. He thought he knew better, and for that reason he wanted the glory and honor because his plan was superior in his mind... because it would save all God's children.

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Think of it this way. Compare "agency" to lesser intelligences.

Lesser intelligences were not given agency. That means when God speaks the must obey. They are not given the ability to choose to go against God's will. When God speaks, all things in the universe must comply, except man. Man has agency, so he has the abiltiy to say, "No, I will do my own will."

It's not even that we DO our own will, but even that we have the ability to do our own will.

What I have come to know while pondering these comments is that we had this agency in the pre-mortal existence as well. I think I had always "believed" that, but I did not "know" it until now.

What we did not have was law. Because we had been given no law, we did not understand good and evil. Agency is independant of the law itself. You can have agency, or the ability to choose, without ever being given a law or a choice to make.

Now, we have been given a choice to make.

2 Nephi 2:

27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal glife, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

It is because of this life; this mortality; this death, that we are free to choose what we want. For, had we chose Lucifer, when no law or choice was given, we exercised our agency against God in His presence. We would have "looked Him in the face" and said I do not choose you. This is what Jospeh Smith said we must do in order to be a son of perdition. Here, on earth, we are not staring Him in the face, because proof of His existence has been veiled from us. So, mercy can be granted to those who repent of making this choice.

But, make no mistake about it, we do make a choice, and the consequences of that choice are eternal.

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Moses 7:

32 The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency;

So, this scripture is NOT saying man did not have agency before the Garden of Eden, or the scripture would contradict the fact that man had agency in heaven.

What it means by "gave man his agency in the Garden of Eden" is that he first gave man a choice whereby he could exercise his agency freely. He gave it to us, instead of retaining it like Lucifer wanted. We were not given a law before that so we could not freely exercise it. Or, we could not choose against God's and remain in His presence because there was no method of deliverance from the sin in choosing against God. But, on earth, under the veil of mortality, a method of deliverance was provided.

So, we could now freely exercise our agency.

The fact that He gave it to us is His honor and glory... that's what Lucifer did not understand.

D&C 29:

36 And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;

Lucifer wanted the ability to decide whether or not to let man exercise his agency freely.

Edited by Justice
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I cant remember what I wote last time, but I bet it was 2 or 4... Now I gave thsi a bit more tought and came in to a conclution that tha actually, he usesall of them ...

First he makes the religious believe that everyone is saved by grace alone so no matter what you do you will be saved. Then as everything is ok to do he can alter the laws, so that in the end we all are forced to follow his plan. Unfortunately there is ONE little flok that is not playing the game, they are not saying everyone will be saved no matter what!

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Traveler, I thank you for your response, but I do not share your view. I do not believe men have any predisposition to selfishness. We are taught selfishness. Locke explained in his treatise on government that man has "a desire of happiness, and an aversion to misery". However, this is different from selfishness. As Jesus said of children: "of such is the kingdom of heaven" (Matt 19:14).

Selfishness must be chosen. Sin must be chosen. Those without knowledge of the law cannot choose to follow it. Locke actually wrote on the subject in his 1690 treatise as well. Speaking of children, he said they were born "ignorant and without the use of reason, they were not presently under that law; for nobody can be under a law, which is not promulgated to him; and this law being promulgated or made known by reason only, he that is not come to the use of his reason, cannot be said to be under this law" (Locke sec. 57).

Locke did not have benefit of the Book of Mormon which was published over a century after his death. "Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me" (Moro. 8:8).

Also look at verse 22: "For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law".

The newborn child is neither naturally selfish nor charitible. The child is a blank slate capable of learning all things. He is not any more selfish than he is a soccer fan or a lover of books.

We are not destructive by nature, such a nature is not the cause of all destructive forces in society. Such false doctrine was strongly repudiated by the prophet Joseph Smith. Our second Article of Faith is a straight forward disavowal of it. The LORD said also: "Wherefore, they cannot sin, for power is not given unto Satan to tempt little children, until they begin to become accountable before me" (D&C 29:47) .

-a-train

I speak from experience - having raised 5 children and with 10 grandchildren I have found that children must be taught not to be selfish - and that such teaching is far more difficult than most parents are prepared for. Have you read "Lord of the Flies"?

I have yet to meet a child that would leave any room more ordered than when they entered it without some sort of corrosion or encouragement. I make great efforts to "child proof" our home for the benefit of our grandchildren.

If you have children and have not had any problems getting them to share their favorite toys with siblings and friends because they by nature do not cry when some other child wants a toy - I believe your child is a most rare exception.

I believe children are used as an example because of their incredible response to love and compassion - not because if they are left to their own they will look to the needs and desires of others before their own.

Finely I have yet to find a more destructive force than selfishness. Even from a capitalist point of view. Selfishness is the downfall of every government type and the engine of every crime and the defining force behind every destructive element of mankind – current economic condition included. It is the defining element of a secret society and the force to use humanity (human need for life) for personal gain. If you have an exception – please help me with my thinking.

The Traveler

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Selfishness is the basis of all evil works to be sure. The issue is whether man is predisposed to it. The question becomes "what is selfishness?" The young child who suddenly wants whatever toy is held by another is not selfish. Selfishness is knowingly harming others to satisfy personal lusts. The young child is not yet equipped to make such decisions. A person acts selfishly, they are not selfish themselves. One may be very selfish in one situation or to one person, but very self-sacrificing in another or to another. Neither selfishness nor self-sacrifice are predispositions from the womb. They are learned and chosen. To say otherwise is to say that man has no agency in the matter.

-a-train

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I haven't pondered this topic enough yet to have a firm opinion. I'd just like to throw out some thoughts I've had as I've read this discussion.

One thing is certain is that parents play a very important role in how their children develop.

It seems children can demonstrate both selfish behavior and giving behavior. Since we are all different, and I mean from birth (even before birth), each individual is more prone to choosing one or the other behavior.

I don't think a parent can ever truly change the core nature of a child, and completely alter what behavior a child will choose as an adult. This ties in with the agency discussion in another thread.

But, a parent definately can help a child develop good habits, and help them learn to make good decisions and overcome some of their selfish desires.

I think of parents in the scriptures like Lehi, that seemingly, in spite of his best efforts, raised some outstanding children, and some not so gifted spiritually. Then there's even the case of the spirits who fell in the premortal world. So, clearly parents are not 100% responsible.

I think the scriptures that say "sins will be answered on the heads of the parents" are for those parents who taught their children to be selfish, or even in a broad sense, did not teach them to be giving. But, just because a parent teaches them one or the other cannot completely remove the responsibility from the individual to recognize the light of Christ within.

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle between your views a-train and Traveler.

I have enjoyed reading your discussion, and I thank you for the manner in which you have conducted yourselves. It seems too often I enjoy a topic but am turned away from the discussion by the bitter and hateful attitudes of those engaged.

Thank you.

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How would Satan have implemented his proposal to save all?

I ask this because I have seen various ideas on the internet and was wondering what others thought. Take the poll and briefly share your ideas (or ideas you may have heard of) if you wish. Feel free to refer to books, articles, or websites if you like. Please no arguments.

Ask Lucifer on what was his intent...;)

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Thanks for the interesting discussion on this topic. It certainly is intriguing to consider the little ways in which people voluntarily or otherwise give up or have taken from them parts of their agency here on earth. The issue fought about in the war in heaven certainly continues to be a struggle now still. Some of the things it brought to mind are how we are flooded with things to read, watch, or listen to that are bad influences and once they are in the mind, it makes it that much harder to choose to let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly. Also, there have always been addictive substances and behaviors throughout time, but lately it seems that Satan and his 1/3 have come up with even more ways to encourage people to shrug uff some of their agency in return for captivity of some type. I teach Health and have noticed increased abuse or addiction among young children with substances that weren't around when I grew up such as energy drinks and hand sanitizer (eating):eek:. Addiction to media/gaming has also become a big health issue among young people I work with. If you haven't ever watched the "The Story of Stuff" http://www.storyofstuff.com/ it is definitely worth watching. I'm not 100% sure on all her facts and statistics, but it is interesting to watch with agency in mind. It shows the effects of people getting sucked in and held captive by the repeating pattern of work-watchTV-buy-throw away. It shows how our choices and actions are affecting others throughout the world, as well as the choices that will be available to our children in the future. I'm reading a book right now, "Nine Parts of Desire" by Geraldine Brooks. I've been aware of women's rights in the Middle Eastern countries for some time, but this book has opened my eyes more to the background of the spiritual beliefs that have changed over time and led to the oppression of their agency in so many ways.

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I have no problem with the additional (maybe even tangential) comments that have arisen, but I want to restate for newcomers the original idea:

How would Satan have implemented his proposal to save all?

I ask this because I have seen various ideas on the internet and was wondering what others thought. Take the poll and briefly share your ideas (or ideas you may have heard of) if you wish. Feel free to refer to books, articles, or websites if you like. Please no arguments.

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I'm still not certain on the difference between 2) and 4), but per your request, Webster, I've gone ahead and voted 2). I would add to that the caveat that Satan would not reveal the law to mankind; however, I don't think he would have been capable of actually changing those laws.

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Please read this post.

I am studying the Book of Mormon this time through to learn more about the personalities of the major players in the Book of Mormon. At home, we have a discussion after lunch every Sunday at the table about some prophet, principle, or story from scripture. My kids have been after me for a few months to discuss Captain Moroni. I haven't felt the urge to until this week.

I have been pondering lately on agency and what is so significant about it, and why God gets His power and glory from giving us our agency.

While still pondering this, I searched for Moroni in the web edition of the scriptures, to begin studying for next weeks discussion on the story of Captain Moroni. I discovered it begins in Alma 43, I think verse 16 or 17. Well, to familiarize myself with what was going on I started in verse 1.

I was so amazed at verses 1-16 that I felt the spirit speaking to me like never before. I had goose bumps and began to cry as I read, and it was opened to my view. There were answers there about the pre-mortal existence I have been searching for my entire life.

If you want a better understanding of agency, why God gets His power from giving us our agency, and how Satan attempted (attempts) to destroy our agency, these verses are for you.

Alma 43: 1-16.

If you don't get it, or don't see the tremendous, far reaching implications and even teachings of the pre-mortal existence, and the fight Lucifer and his angels waged against the "believers" or "innocent," then maybe it's not time for you to see it.

To get you started in the right direction, here's one of the scriptures:

Alma 43:

2 Now we shall say no more concerning their preaching, except that they preached the word, and the truth, according to the spirit of prophecy and revelation; and they preached after the holy order of God by which they were called.

3 And now I return to an account of the wars between the Nephites and the Lamanites...

Ponder deeply about these verses before you go on...

If you think Mormon would rather show us the warfare of his people, and have us count bodies and see how bloody their wars are, instead of teaching us something... then I suggest you read these 16 verses and pray mightily until the purpose is unlocked.

Watch for the word power and look back at a previous scripture I posted that talks about Satan wanting God's glory, "which is His power."

I pray with every fiber of my being that when you read this that you will be enlightened as I have been today.

Edited by Justice
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For your convenience...

Alma 43:

1 And now it came to pass that the sons of Alma did go forth among the people, to declare the word unto them. And Alma, also, himself, could not rest, and he also went forth.

2 Now we shall say no more concerning their preaching, except that they preached the word, and the truth, according to the spirit of prophecy and revelation; and they preached after the holy order of God by which they were called.

3 And now I return to an account of the wars between the Nephites and the Lamanites, in the *eighteenth year of the reign of the judges.

4 For behold, it came to pass that the Zoramites became Lamanites; therefore, in the commencement of the eighteenth year the people of the Nephites saw that the Lamanites were coming upon them; therefore they made preparations for war; yea, they gathered together their armies in the land of Jershon.

5 And it came to pass that the Lamanites came with their thousands; and they came into the land of Antionum, which is the land of the Zoramites; and a man by the name of Zerahemnah was their leader.

6 And now, as the Amalekites were of a more wicked and murderous disposition than the Lamanites were, in and of themselves, therefore, Zerahemnah appointed chief captains over the Lamanites, and they were all Amalekites and Zoramites.

7 Now this he did that he might preserve their hatred towards the Nephites, that he might bring them into subjection to the accomplishment of his designs.

8 For behold, his designs were to stir up the Lamanites to anger against the Nephites; this he did that he might usurp great power over them, and also that he might gain power over the Nephites by bringing them into bondage.

9 And now the design of the Nephites was to support their lands, and their houses, and their wives, and their children, that they might preserve them from the hands of their enemies; and also that they might preserve their rights and their privileges, yea, and also their liberty, that they might worship God according to their desires.

10 For they knew that if they should fall into the hands of the Lamanites, that whosoever should worship God in spirit and in truth, the true and the living God, the Lamanites would destroy.

11 Yea, and they also knew the extreme hatred of the Lamanites towards their brethren, who were the people of Anti-Nephi-Lehi, who were called the people of Ammon—and they would not take up arms, yea, they had entered into a covenant and they would not break it—therefore, if they should fall into the hands of the Lamanites they would be destroyed.

12 And the Nephites would not suffer that they should be destroyed; therefore they gave them lands for their inheritance.

13 And the people of Ammon did give unto the Nephites a large portion of their substance to support their armies; and thus the Nephites were compelled, alone, to withstand against the Lamanites, who were a compound of Laman and Lemuel, and the sons of Ishmael, and all those who had dissented from the Nephites, who were Amalekites and Zoramites, and the descendants of the priests of Noah.

14 Now those descendants were as numerous, nearly, as were the Nephites; and thus the Nephites were obliged to contend with their brethren, even unto bloodshed.

15 And it came to pass as the armies of the Lamanites had gathered together in the land of Antionum, behold, the armies of the Nephites were prepared to meet them in the land of Jershon.

16 Now, the leader of the Nephites, or the man who had been appointed to be the chief captain over the Nephites—now the chief captain took the command of all the armies of the Nephites—and his name was Moroni;

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Okay, hints... Agency is defined in verse 9:

that they might worship God according to their desires

What Satan wanted (wants) is in verse 8:

Speaking of those who followed him willingly:

he did that he might usurp great power over them

Speaking of those who would not follow him willingly:

he might gain power over [them] by bringing them into bondage

There are SO many truths made plain in these verses. I HOPE that you are shown as many as I have been.

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This goes right along with this scripture:

Doctrine & Covenants 93:

31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.

32 And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation.

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.

35 The elements are the tabernacle of God; yea, man is the tabernacle of God, even temples; and whatsoever temple is defiled, God shall destroy that temple.

36 The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth.

37 Light and truth forsake that evil one.

38 Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God.

39 And that wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth, through disobedience, from the children of men, and because of the tradition of their fathers.

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Selfishness is the basis of all evil works to be sure. The issue is whether man is predisposed to it. The question becomes "what is selfishness?" The young child who suddenly wants whatever toy is held by another is not selfish. Selfishness is knowingly harming others to satisfy personal lusts. The young child is not yet equipped to make such decisions. A person acts selfishly, they are not selfish themselves. One may be very selfish in one situation or to one person, but very self-sacrificing in another or to another. Neither selfishness nor self-sacrifice are predispositions from the womb. They are learned and chosen. To say otherwise is to say that man has no agency in the matter.

-a-train

I define selfishness as a predisposition or lack of ability to realize another’s need to be as important and valid as yours. It can be as simple as wanting the biggest cookie for one’s self. The opposite of selfishness (which is self sacrifice) is always against the trend. Even Jesus recognized that sacrifice required and conscious effort and discipline in the statement – not mine but thy will be done.

As far as agency – I am not sure you understand the term. Agency is not just choice – if it was then the proper term would be choice. Agency implies that one does not act for just themselves – agency by definition means to act for another.

The Traveler

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Everyone seems to believe that Satan forces people to do things. I find this rather interesting. I think he is able to take control of a person without force until he has control and then force is no longer the question.

Think about how Satan works – What has he forced anyone to do? What is interesting to me is that even when someone knows they are being tempted and they have worked so hard to overcome bad habits how Satan is able to convince them that for just this one time to indulge and participate without even the slightest inclination that they are being forced.

And yet most think that Satan's plan is to force people. If he does force people then we could all say (as Flip Wilson use to say) "The Devel made me do it." And there would be no accountability.

What Satan wanted is to take away the agency of man - and agency is more than choice. What it means is that man would not be given the ability to be responsible. We would be kept like pets with someone taking care of us and that someone Satan planned to be him self.

The Traveler

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler
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I'm still not certain on the difference between 2) and 4), but per your request, Webster, I've gone ahead and voted 2). I would add to that the caveat that Satan would not reveal the law to mankind; however, I don't think he would have been capable of actually changing those laws.

I think you chose correctly between #2 and #4 based on what you've said. If you don't think Satan could change the rules, then #4 is out. Maybe his withholding the knowledge of the law is a way in which he could make men unaccountable as in #2.

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Traveler, don't think of it from our perspective, or from the point of view that Satan cannot force people to do things...

Think of it from his point of view and what HE wanted.

Remember, what Satan wanted could not work. He could not force us to do as he wanted.

He is the father of lies.

The big lie was that he could force us to choose the right.

If you get a notion, please read all my posts in this thread again, and concentrate on this scripture (just replace "he" Zerahemna, with "he" Satan, and think of the pre-mortal existence and his war with us on earth):

Alma 43:

7 Now this he did that he might preserve their hatred towards the Nephites, that he might bring them into subjection to the accomplishment of his designs.

8 For behold, his designs were to stir up the Lamanites to anger against the Nephites; this he did that he might usurp great power over them, and also that he might gain power over the Nephites by bringing them into bondage.

Red: are those who willingly followed him. His purpose was to usurp great "power" over them.

Green: are those who do not follow him willingly. His purpose was to gain "power" over them and bring them into bondage.

The power he believed (believes) to gain over us is:

D&C 29:

36 And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;

Satan didn't walk up to God and say, "Give me your honor."

He sought something that gave God His power.

What gives God His power?

Moses 1:

39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

What gives God His glory, honor, and power, is that He has children, prepares a way to exalt them, and gives them their agency to choose Him, risking loosing them.

I believe it was Joseph Smith who once said something to the effect of (I tried to find the source):

The Gospel of Jesus Christ also comes with bad news. The bad news is that we can fail.

Heavenly Father knew this. But, He also knew:

D&C 93:

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.

So, that God gave us a chance to receive a fullness of joy, with the risk of being condemned to an eternity of guilt, is His power.

Like King Benjamin, the people followed him because they loved him, and wanted to be like him.

God gives man agency to choose or reject him.

Satan tries to force all men to follow him.

I don't believe Satan can force a single man to follow him. Man has had their agency from the very beginning, even in the pre-mortal existence.

and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;

God allows us to choose.

Satan only wants us to choose if we choose him. If we do not choose him, he exercises compulsary means, and tries to force us to follow him, or to be in bondage to him.

Yes, it's ironic that the only way we can become servants of Satan is to give in to what he tempts us with, and give him our agency.

We do it willingly. So, from a point of view, through tempting our bodies, he's getting what he wants each and every time we obey him. We are subjecting ourselves to him.

But, as you have pointed out, it is by our choice, not by force.

However, he would do it by force if he could.

He thinks he can, and gains evidence each time we choose him.

I think he thinks he can still win. He's so certain his plan will work, he's taken it to this earth to try to force us to follow him, and somehow that by doing so we can be saved. He thinks if he can get enough, it will somehow matter. Read those 16 verses.

On the other hand, God is still saying it won't work; it can't work; you must be allowed choose.

Interesting paradox.

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We would be kept like pets with someone taking care of us and that someone Satan planned to be him self.

The Traveler

Yep, if we didn't choose him, we would be forced to go along with his plan.

That would destroy our agency. We would no longer have the ability to choose. He would choose for us.

Saved by force?

Interestingly, some Christians believe that about God.

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Main Entry: self·ish

Function: adjective

1: concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others

2: arising from concern with one's own welfare or advantage in disregard of others <a selfish act>

Yeah, I think one can be selfish inwardly. But, like all other thoughts, it can be overcome. One can recognize selfish feelings or actions and change.

Charity and selfishness, I believe, are opposites.

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Everyone seems to believe that Satan forces people to do things. I find this rather interesting. I think he is able to take control of a person without force until he has control and then force is no longer the question.

Think about how Satan works – What has he forced anyone to do? What is interesting to me is that even when someone knows they are being tempted and they have worked so hard to overcome bad habits how Satan is able to convince them that for just this one time to indulge and participate without even the slightest inclination that they are being forced.

And yet most think that Satan's plan is to force people. If he does force people then we could all say (as Flip Wilson use to say) "The Devel made me do it." And there would be no accountability.

What Satan wanted is to take away the agency of man - and agency is more than choice. What it means is that man would not be given the ability to be responsible. We would be kept like pets with someone taking care of us and that someone Satan planned to be him self.

The Traveler

The Traveler

I think that when Satan first tempt us and we make wrong decitions as a human or as a nation we come to a stage wherer there is NO choise, no return, but we have to follow the laws Satans has "helped" us to change to "better".

That is why we should not sleep as LDS but always be avake against the wrong. Unfortunately the evil has already got too big power, in may places, that wrong thigs has become a law and you are bound to follow. The devil really .. it is so well said in the bible but I cant say that in Enlish right... he makes us sleep and slowly introduces us to his ideas - which we are not able to regognise as our spirits are asleep.

This is the way one can say that Satan forces us to do something we do not really want to. Ofcourse we can try to go against the whole nation, but what goos is 4000 against 3 milion? Especially as the evil has very good points he can refere to, points that if we do not agree makes us "terrible people".

But in personal level we do ALWAYS have a chanse to stop following the Devil. All we need is a bit baqckbone and courage to take the consiquenses. I think those that dont give in to the temptaions are really good. Those who confess and take the consiquences rock! :D

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