A question about Satan's plan


Webster
 Share

How would Satan have implemented his proposal to save all? (Leave additional comments if you like)  

55 members have voted

  1. 1. How would Satan have implemented his proposal to save all? (Leave additional comments if you like)

    • Require each person to atone for their own sins
    • Don't hold anyone accountable / Redeem all unconditionally
    • Force everyone to be good or to comply with the rules
    • Change the rules or laws so that nothing would be evil
    • Something else (please explain)
    • Don't know


Recommended Posts

By the way, for those who are interested, the first option in my poll above was inspired by the following from "Mediation and Atonement" by John Taylor:

It would further seem probable that he [satan] refused to take the position of redeemer, and assume all the consequences associated therewith, but he did propose, as stated before, to take another plan and deprive man of his agency, and he probably intended to make men atone for their own acts by an act of coercion, and the shedding of their own blood as an atonement for their sins; therefore, he says, "I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost; and surely I will do it; wherefore, give me thine honor."

So even a major leader of the church can have a different view. I find it interresting that he says that this seems "probable." I wonder if the now common idea of 'forcing us to be good' was not around in his days or if he just didn't like it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 172
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I didn't vote- I didn't see an 'Other' option, nor the option I think most accurately reflects the truth.

In my opinion, Satan could not have implemented his plan, even if the Father were to have given the go-ahead. Agency is an inalienable attribute of human nature, as core as the existence of intelligence. Just as the existence of matter requires said matter to react to extrinsic forces, the existence of intelligence requires said intelligence to react to intrinsic forces- that is, the existence of intelligence requires said intelligence to react, in a manner, to ideas and spiritual promptings. How that intelligence reacts is dictated by agency.

As far as Satan is concerned, it is my opinion Satan either A.) did not understand this and merely thought his plan could work, or B.) knew this and knew his plan could not work, yet continued to seek power for himself. Either way, it could not have worked. Just as God does not- cannot- force us to make one decision or another, another being has no power to take away our agency. I am reminded of the inhabitents of Ammonihah, who pretended to abide by the letter of the law, yet sought to overthrow the law of the land (Alma 8:10-13, 17). I think, in the same way, Satan pretended his plan followed the letter of the Father's laws, yet Satan secretly plotted to foil the return of all the Father's spirit children to the Father. Satan, for all his cunning wickedness, was (and is) the ultimate fool, for he thought he could hide his plans from the Father of righteousness.

Exactly!

And just as agency is an inalienable attribute of human nature, Good and Evil are Eternal concepts understood and obeyed by the gods of Eternity.

Bro. Rudick

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Traveler, I thank you for your response, but I do not share your view. I do not believe men have any predisposition to selfishness. . .

The newborn child is neither naturally selfish nor charitible. The child is a blank slate capable of learning all things. He is not any more selfish than he is a soccer fan or a lover of books.

We are not destructive by nature, such a nature is not the cause of all destructive forces in society. Such false doctrine was strongly repudiated by the prophet Joseph Smith. Our second Article of Faith is a straight forward disavowal of it. The LORD said also: "Wherefore, they cannot sin, for power is not given unto Satan to tempt little children, until they begin to become accountable before me" (D&C 29:47) .

-a-train

I have to say that I do not agree with your or Mr. Lock's interpretations.

John Lock was a very intelligent man but I feel misguided in this outlook.

The child is outside the law and unaccountable.

I wish I could think of the verse I had in mind.

All I can think of is this chapter in Romans that does not quite show my point.

But I hope it gives you an idea of what I mean.

Romans 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey

the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Romans 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that

doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Romans 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that

worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also

perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall

be judged by the law;

Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before

God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do

by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the

law, are a law unto themselves:

Romans 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their

hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts

the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;). . .

[This chapter then goes on into a discourse of Law the nature of man and sin.

But you have to take into account all that is written, your scriptures that you quotes included, and see that children are not so much without the actions of sin, but that they are outside the Law and the Law is not in effect concerning them.

Romans 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are

forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Romans 4:8 Blessed is the man [or child] to whom the Lord will not impute

sin.

Not that sin is not committed.

Bro. Rudick

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Johnny Rudick:

Okay, I'm trying to understand why you chose option #2 in the poll, and I think by looking at a few of your comments I can figure it out, but tell me if I'm right.

. . . agency is an inalienable attribute of human nature. . . .

If you're going with the common idea that agency is basically the same thing as 'free will'/'freedom of choice', and it's an inalienable attribute of human nature, then you cannot choose option #3 - "Force everyone to be good or to comply with the rules", because that would be impossible.

. . . Good and Evil are Eternal concepts understood and obeyed by the gods of Eternity.

Some people take the position that God is God and can do anything He wants, including make up whatever rules He wants. I think what you're getting at is that God cannot simply change the laws of the universe, but that He is God because He understands all the laws and works within them.

If that is your position, then option #4 - "Change the rules or laws so that nothing would be evil" is impossible.

That leaves option #2 - "Don't hold anyone accountable / Redeem all unconditionally" as the most viable option. I think you lean that way with your following comments:

The child is outside the law and unaccountable.

Here you refer to the idea that the law is in place, but the child is outside it and therefore unaccountable. This seems to match well with option #2.

. . . children are not so much without the actions of sin, but that they are outside the Law and the Law is not in effect concerning them.

Romans 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are

forgiven, and whose sins are covered..

Romans 4:8 Blessed is the man [or child] to whom the Lord will not impute

sin.

Not that sin is not committed.

Here again, your example shows those who are outside the law, and even do in fact choose evil of their own free will, but are either deemed unaccountable or pardoned in some sense, therefore they are saved because the sin is not imputed to them.

Again, option #2 - "Don't hold anyone accountable / Redeem all unconditionally" sounds more like a possibility since God has the ability to redeem those who He deems unaccountable or who He pardons.

The twist with Satan would be that he claimed he could make everyone unaccounable, or pardon every one no matter what they did. (I doubt he could do that, but it seems plausible enough that he could have deceived a third into believing that he could.)

Is that a fairly good explanation? If not, where did I go wrong, and what would you like to add?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Johnny Rudick:

Okay, I'm trying to understand why you chose option #2 in the poll, and I think by looking at a few of your comments I can figure it out, but tell me if I'm right.

If you're going with the common idea that agency is basically the same thing as 'free will'/'freedom of choice', and it's an inalienable attribute of human nature, then you cannot choose option #3 - "Force everyone to be good or to comply with the rules", because that would be impossible.

Exactly:)

Some people take the position that God is God and can do anything He wants, including make up whatever rules He wants. I think what you're getting at is that God cannot simply change the laws of the universe, but that He is God because He understands all the laws and works within them.

If that is your position, then option #4 - "Change the rules or laws so that nothing would be evil" is impossible.

Right:)

That leaves option #2 - "Don't hold anyone accountable / Redeem all unconditionally" as the most viable option. I think you lean that way with your following comments:

Here you refer to the idea that the law is in place, but the child is outside it and therefore unaccountable. This seems to match well with option #2.

Here again, your example shows those who are outside the law, and even do in fact choose evil of their own free will, but are either deemed unaccountable or pardoned in some sense, therefore they are saved because the sin is not imputed to them.

Again, option #2 - "Don't hold anyone accountable / Redeem all unconditionally" sounds more like a possibility since God has the ability to redeem those who He deems unaccountable or who He pardons.

God will allow a fallen one to continue on the path he has chosen even though he is in error.

check out the story of Balaam the prophet for instance which is one of my favorite examples of this sort of thing.

Satan is a fallen angel.

He thinks he knows better then everyone.

Many agree with him that feeds his ego.

God will allow him to fail for God is God.

The twist with Satan would be that he claimed he could make everyone unaccounable, or pardon every one no matter what they did. (I doubt he could do that, but it seems plausible enough that he could have deceived a third into believing that he could.)

Is that a fairly good explanation? If not, where did I go wrong, and what would you like to add?

You have my thinking down as if I had wrote it.

How did you get inside my head:D

I believe even if Satan had had his way in the council of the gods, Father would have allowed him to give it a go and it would have turned out the way Father wanted it to anyway.

Bro. Rudick

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I´m sorry to go into this discussion without reading all the comments before.

I think i´ll do that later on from time to time. But I´d like to share some

thaughts that are based on my experiences with spirits.

Jesus loved all his bothers and sisters so much that he agreed with the plan

of the father. Lucifer only loved himself and he didn´t like to give his life and

suffering to redeem his brohers and sisters. But he liked to di life in an easy

way and he also liked to be "GOD". Therefore he developed a plan that sounded

much better for all the spirits who wanted to have an easy life without too much

efforts. The spirits that followed him are still under the law of God and although

they followed Lucifer they still have their free will.

In the meantime they recognized that Lucifer can´t fulfill his plan and that he

can´t force everyone to do the good. They see that he forces everyone to do

the bad. They followed him because they had been his friends, and they had

been deceived. But now many of them try to leave his army but they don´t

know how.

Jesus loves all of them although they had made a wrong decision, but they still

are free to turn to Christ in the same way, as many of us humans living on

earth deny Christ and turn to Lucifer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I´m sorry to go into this discussion without reading all the comments before.

I think i´ll do that later on from time to time. But I´d like to share some

thaughts that are based on my experiences with spirits.

Hay, I do it all the time:p

Is tha an excuse:rolleyes:

Not sure, but you are fine by me:)

Jesus loved all his bothers and sisters so much that he agreed with the plan

of the father. Lucifer only loved himself and he didn´t like to give his life and

suffering to redeem his brohers and sisters. But he liked to di life in an easy

way and he also liked to be "GOD". Therefore he developed a plan that sounded

much better for all the spirits who wanted to have an easy life without too much

efforts. The spirits that followed him are still under the law of God and although

they followed Lucifer they still have their free will.

That is the way I understand it also:)

In the meantime they recognized that Lucifer can´t fulfill his plan and that he

can´t force everyone to do the good. They see that he forces everyone to do

the bad. They followed him because they had been his friends, and they had

been deceived. But now many of them try to leave his army but they don´t

know how.

How many time in history do we see this repeated.

Even up to this day Satan is working this thing out.:(

Jesus loves all of them although they had made a wrong decision, but they still

are free to turn to Christ in the same way, as many of us humans living on

earth deny Christ and turn to Lucifer.

As far as I am concerned (and I am a complete nobody), you are exactly right:)

Not sure what that means for you but as far as I can tell, I agree with your statement 100 percent.

Bro. Rudick

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One thing that is overlooked in how Satan operates is an examination of what happened in the pre-existence. Please note that Satan drew unto him a one third part of heaven. Let me ask a question – how did he do that? These were all children of our Father in heaven. They all lived in the very presents of G-d. They were taught directly by the Father.

I submit that the followers of Satan did so with full knowledge of what they were doing. I do not believe that they were tricked or deceived. Nor do I believe they were forced by Satan to follow him. I do not believe they followed him because they wanted an “easy” way. They knew exactly what they were doing and they were up to it. I do not think that any lie would go unexposed in the counsels of heaven.

Very few of the excuses that I see made as to why Satan has follower makes any real sense to me. Often I get the feeling that many are not paying attention to what has taken place and what they see taking place as we live. Satan gets control of a soul without threats or force. The only way he gets control is when control is given to him. The scriptures are clear. He gets control by taking responsibility from the individual and by taking care of them until they are unable to take care of themselves.

How has Satan taken control in your life? He takes control when you give up on what you know is right and to just do not endure to the end. You say in essence – okay, somebody please take over. I have had enough. This is very different than the person that says – I have tried all I know and nothing seems to work. L-rd I do not really know what you have in mind but to you I yield my will and will DO as you command. The difference is that one is giving themselves and the other is giving up on themselves.

From what example is everybody getting the idea that Satan uses force? Can anyone explain this idea to me in relationship to anything real?

The Traveler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only way he gets control is when control is given to him. The scriptures are clear. He gets control by taking responsibility from the individual and by taking care of them until they are unable to take care of themselves.

I agree with what you said above. You almost sound like you could go for poll option #2 - "Don't hold anyone accountable / Redeem all unconditionally." That could be very appealing to the type of person who would not want to follow the plan, just give up, and let someone else to take over.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One thing that is overlooked in how Satan operates is an examination of what happened in the pre-existence. Please note that Satan drew unto him a one third part of heaven. Let me ask a question – how did he do that? These were all children of our Father in heaven. They all lived in the very presents of G-d. They were taught directly by the Father.

I submit that the followers of Satan did so with full knowledge of what they were doing. I do not believe that they were tricked or deceived. Nor do I believe they were forced by Satan to follow him. I do not believe they followed him because they wanted an “easy” way. They knew exactly what they were doing and they were up to it. I do not think that any lie would go unexposed in the counsels of heaven.

Very few of the excuses that I see made as to why Satan has follower makes any real sense to me. Often I get the feeling that many are not paying attention to what has taken place and what they see taking place as we live. Satan gets control of a soul without threats or force. The only way he gets control is when control is given to him. The scriptures are clear. He gets control by taking responsibility from the individual and by taking care of them until they are unable to take care of themselves.

How has Satan taken control in your life? He takes control when you give up on what you know is right and to just do not endure to the end. You say in essence – okay, somebody please take over. I have had enough. This is very different than the person that says – I have tried all I know and nothing seems to work. L-rd I do not really know what you have in mind but to you I yield my will and will DO as you command. The difference is that one is giving themselves and the other is giving up on themselves.

From what example is everybody getting the idea that Satan uses force? Can anyone explain this idea to me in relationship to anything real?

The Traveler

Everything you say is true.

I was under the impression the question was what method Satan would use to complete his plan.

Not why would he gain followers.

Yet their may have been many of not most that with eyes wide open just wanted an easier way.

I do not say that Satan beguiled them as he did Eve.

And he did, even though she may have had her reasons.

You can hear fine words from a smooth talker and know in your heart he is a lair and still follow him for your own reasons.

Satan says

Moses 4:1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That

Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only

Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came

before me, saying--Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son,

and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost,

and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.

He has been trying his brand of salvation in different ways throughout history.

He has had to change his strategy as he si not as knowledgeable as Father and had no clue as to the nature of man.

But he has learned and is getting more skillful as time goes on.

"A storm is coming."

Bro. Rudick

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It doesn't matter that we cannot be forced, what matters is Lucifer thought it could.

It is clear to us that his plan can't work. But, to them they are proceding as if it can.

So, to think Lucifer can't believe something because it can't work is missing the point of him wanting to remove our agency.

YES! The plan cannot work if you remove our agency, but that's exactly what he was trying to do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Would this not remove the Schadenfreude? :(

I think it would.

I have raised 4 children and had a hand in 2 more.

I have noticed that if all is done for them they appreciate it far lass then if I allow them to achieve it themselves or at least have a hand in it.

Satan would rob us of Joy.

Not sure he wanted to in the beginning, I think he found out that is just the result of his policies.

He is so intent in what he wants to do. . .

Bro. Rudick

Link to comment
Share on other sites

how did he do that? These were all children of

our Father in heaven. They all lived in the very presents

of G-d. They were taught directly by the Father. I submit

that the followers of Satan did so with full knowledge of

what they were doing. I do not believe that they were

tricked or deceived. Nor do I believe they were forced

by Satan to follow him. I do not believe they followed

him because they wanted an “easy” way. They knew

exactly what they were doing and they were up to it.

I do not think that any lie would go unexposed in the

counsels of heaven.

The Traveler

When we are talking about the life after life we find many different opinions,

because we don´t know much. We rely on the scriptures and the reports of

some people who took a look behind the veil ("The gateway we call death"

by Russel M. Nelson).

With the preexistance it´s similar. Noone remembers what happend and the

scriptures don´t tell much. What we know is that Lucifer´s name means in

Latin, "Light-Bringer" (from lux, lucis, "light", and ferre, "to bear, bring")

and that he was beautiful and intelligent. We often see that people that are

beautiful and intelligent become proud. And they have fans who admire them

and they love to be admired - they love themselves. I agree with the opinion

that Lucifer may not have seen the bad end of his plan.

Although we lived in the presence of god we were innocent children watching

and listening but without the experience of this life. Lucifer was really convinced

of his plan, because there were some advantages. It´s 100 % - everyone

comes back. It´s comfortable - no crime, no violence, less pain, no poverty,

no famine, no exploitation. I think he could make his plan sound good. But

only 1/3 followed him. He was disappointed that the most followed Jehova

and he thought Jehova is the deceiver and he teaches his fallen angels that

Jehova is the betrayer and that the plan of Jesus brings a lot of pain to the

world. He also teaches that now as they (fallen angels) settled for him it´s

impossible to turn to Jehova because Jehova hates them and that they will

be destoyed if they go to the light. Therefore it´s difficult for them to repent,

but ot is not impossible.

The force that he has is what they allow him, that´s right. He always rebukes

and never praises them. He always denunciates them as a bad example. He

sets them under psychological pressure.

1/3 followed Lucifer and they all are on earth now. They are here since

thousands of years. They have seen and experienced much. They may

speak any language. It´s their job to lure us away from Christ. They intrude

into the people and make them think that they have lived before by sharing

their own experiences of the past with them. Another example: A female

fallen angel can intrude into a male person and may make him think like a

woman and may deceive him to love another man. Therefoe we are sup-

porting prop.8 because we can see clearly the influence of Lucifers devotees.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have to say that I do not agree with your or Mr. Lock's interpretations.

John Lock was a very intelligent man but I feel misguided in this outlook.

The child is outside the law and unaccountable.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand the point you are trying to make. This is exactly what I am saying and exactly what Locke said, that children are outside the law and unaccountable.

-a-train

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When we are talking about the life after life we find many different opinions,

because we don´t know much. We rely on the scriptures and the reports of

some people who took a look behind the veil ("The gateway we call death"

by Russel M. Nelson).

With the preexistance it´s similar. Noone remembers what happend and the

scriptures don´t tell much. What we know is that Lucifer´s name means in

Latin, "Light-Bringer" (from lux, lucis, "light", and ferre, "to bear, bring")

and that he was beautiful and intelligent. We often see that people that are

beautiful and intelligent become proud. And they have fans who admire them

and they love to be admired - they love themselves. I agree with the opinion

that Lucifer may not have seen the bad end of his plan.

Although we lived in the presence of god we were innocent children watching

and listening but without the experience of this life. Lucifer was really convinced

of his plan, because there were some advantages. It´s 100 % - everyone

comes back. It´s comfortable - no crime, no violence, less pain, no poverty,

no famine, no exploitation. I think he could make his plan sound good. But

only 1/3 followed him. He was disappointed that the most followed Jehova

and he thought Jehova is the deceiver and he teaches his fallen angels that

Jehova is the betrayer and that the plan of Jesus brings a lot of pain to the

world. He also teaches that now as they (fallen angels) settled for him it´s

impossible to turn to Jehova because Jehova hates them and that they will

be destoyed if they go to the light. Therefore it´s difficult for them to repent,

but ot is not impossible.

The force that he has is what they allow him, that´s right. He always rebukes

and never praises them. He always denunciates them as a bad example. He

sets them under psychological pressure.

1/3 followed Lucifer and they all are on earth now. They are here since

thousands of years. They have seen and experienced much. They may

speak any language. It´s their job to lure us away from Christ. They intrude

into the people and make them think that they have lived before by sharing

their own experiences of the past with them. Another example: A female

fallen angel can intrude into a male person and may make him think like a

woman and may deceive him to love another man. Therefoe we are sup-

porting prop.8 because we can see clearly the influence of Lucifers devotees.

Sie summieren es recht gut oben.

Ya got it:p

Bro. Rudick

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll try to explain why I feel it's not number 2.

Agency has nothing to do with accountability. At least not in the pure definition of agency.

Accountability comes when one makes a choice, or exercises their agency.

Agency isn't the choices we make, it is the ability to choose. So, one can have agency and never make a choice.

I know that all three are related to a certain degree, but here's what I'm trying to say.

Here is option 2:

Don't hold anyone accountable

To me, this is saying "grant men their choice, but don't hold them accountable."

Well, if men are choosing, then they have agency regardless of anything that follows.

Agency is NOT choosing... agency is the general ability TO choose.

Satan's plan was to destroy the agency of man.

Moses 4:

3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;

Satan wanted God's ability to grant man agency, or the ability to choose. Once men choose, then they have agency. If Satan wanted to destroy agency, then man would not have been allowed to choose. Only by choosing can there be accountability.

So, if you say Satan wanted to destroy accountability, you are 1 step too late in process. He would destroy agency, thus destroying choice, accountability, rewards, punishments, and everything that followed as a result of giving man his agency.

Satan did not want this to happen:

Moses 7: 32

32 The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency;

If God did not give us a space, place, time, or death where we could exercise our agency, then we could not progress.

Satan thought that he could prepare the space, place, and time, but that if man did not choose (not given agency) then there would be no death... which would warrant a Savior who had to suffer for man's redemption.

Edited by Justice
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ironically, the perfect example of what I'm trying to say is Jesus Christ.

Christ never choose against God's will.

Does this mean He did not have agency?

No, He had agency. He just did not make a decision that was contrary to God's will.

As a perfect type (or example) of Christ, look what the scriptures say about Captain Moroni:

Alma 48:

17 Yea, verily, verily I say unto you, if all men had been, and were, and ever would be, like unto Moroni, [Christ] behold, the very powers of hell would have been shaken forever; yea, the devil would never have power over the hearts of the children of men.

Satan thought if all could have agency, and like Christ, not choose against God's will, then all would return to God, and there would be no need of an Atonement.

What he could not or did not see was that we must choose in order to get a reward or punishment from that choice. If he made the choice for us, then he felt he should get the honor and glory for making us make that choice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The word power here is interesting. We get an understanding of what it means in this verse:

D&C 29:

36 And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;

Read the 3 scriptues I posted in the previous 2 posts, and look for the word power, and the context in which they are meant.

God's honor or glory is to grant man his agency. Only by granting man his agency can man be perfected.

Satan wanted God's abilty to grant man his agency, or in his eyes, to retain man's agency. That would destroy man's agency, if it was not granted to him.

So, by wanting God's ability to grant man his agency, Satan would be taking God's power.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll try to explain why I feel it's not number 2.

Agency has nothing to do with accountability. At least not in the pure definition of agency.

Accountability comes when one makes a choice, or exercises their agency.

Agency isn't the choices we make, it is the ability to choose. So, one can have agency and never make a choice.

I know that all three are related to a certain degree, but here's what I'm trying to say.

Here is option 2:

Don't hold anyone accountable

To me, this is saying "grant men their choice, but don't hold them accountable."

Well, if men are choosing, then they have agency regardless of anything that follows.

Agency is NOT choosing... agency is the general ability TO choose.

Satan's plan was to destroy the agency of man.

Moses 4:

3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;

Satan wanted God's ability to grant man agency, or the ability to choose. Once men choose, then they have agency. If Satan wanted to destroy agency, then man would not have been allowed to choose. Only by choosing can there be accountability.

So, if you say Satan wanted to destroy accountability, you are 1 step too late in process. He would destroy agency, thus destroying choice, accountability, rewards, punishments, and everything that followed as a result of giving man his agency.

Satan did not want this to happen:

Moses 7: 32

32 The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency;

If God did not give us a space, place, time, or death where we could exercise our agency, then we could not progress.

Satan thought that he could prepare the space, place, and time, but that if man did not choose (not given agency) then there would be no death... which would warrant a Savior who had to suffer for man's redemption.

OK, here we get back to rightly dividing.

Who is doing the speaking?

We have in your quote the perspective of God.

The question I thought was what was Satan's plan.

You know the old saying about plans being made and I believe this is the case with Satan.

We have to go back a couple of verses.

He said, and this is from his perspective;

MOS 4:1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying--Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.

From his perspective I believe that since there would be no way they could avoid the Law, he would have to try to place them outside the law.

There are some kids who will obey and be "good kids" because they are good natured, love mom and dad and would never dream of hurting them.

God has blessed you if you have been given children like these or more then. . .

Other's need to have more fear of punishment then wanting to go their own way.

They are a lot more work.

Grown ups sometimes never grow out of these traits for good or not so good.

We could have a society where people like the first could set up a civil society.

but those of the second would be more aptly to be less civil if they felt they could avoid the law of the land and had no fear of Eternal punishment.

We are coming into that era now, but in a world where there never was fear of lasting results of bad decisions I fear we would not have lasted this long.

Just a few thoughts disjointed as they are I hope you get my point.

Bro. Rudick

Bro. Rudick

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ironically, the perfect example of what I'm trying to say is Jesus Christ.

Christ never choose against God's will.

Does this mean He did not have agency?

No, He had agency. He just did not make a decision that was contrary to God's will.

As a perfect type (or example) of Christ, look what the scriptures say about Captain Moroni:

Alma 48:

17 Yea, verily, verily I say unto you, if all men had been, and were, and ever would be, like unto Moroni, [Christ] behold, the very powers of hell would have been shaken forever; yea, the devil would never have power over the hearts of the children of men.

Satan thought if all could have agency, and like Christ, not choose against God's will, then all would return to God, and there would be no need of an Atonement.

What he could not or did not see was that we must choose in order to get a reward or punishment from that choice. If he made the choice for us, then he felt he should get the honor and glory for making us make that choice.

I agree with everything you say.

I am just saying that a man can choose evil, and so so without worry if he knew there would be no retribution.

Satan proposed such a situation.

It could not work.

But he did not understand that.

He does now but he does not care.

Bro. Rudick

Edited by JohnnyRudick
spelled my name wrong:-[
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Agency has nothing to do with accountability. At least not in the pure definition of agency.

* * *

Agency isn't the choices we make, it is the ability to choose.

* * *

Agency is NOT choosing... agency is the general ability TO choose.

1) Can you please find a dictionary with that definition in it? I've been searching for years and I cannot. (Here are more dictionary and thesaurus references. Please click on the references and see if you can find anything like freedom or ability to choose.)

2) When listing the, "Four great principles [which] must be in force if there is to be agency," Elder Bruce R. McConkie said that #4 was, "An unfettered power of choice must prevail." (See Mormon Doctrine, "Agency", p. 26) How can Agency be the "ability to choose" when an "unfettered power of choice" is only one of four principles needed for agency to exist? That makes no sense to me.

3) If Agency is so clearly the, "ability to choose," and Satan's proposal which would have destroyed agency would have taken away our ability to choose, then why did John Taylor in "Mediation and Atonement" (which I referred to in comment #50) think that Satan, "probably intended to make men atone for their own acts by an act of coercion?" Why did John Taylor have an alternate idea about Satan's proposal?

4) Why does Satan say, "I will redeem all mankind" in Moses 4:1 if, by removing our ability to choose, there would be no sin from which to be redeemed?

Edited by Webster
Added more dictionary and thesaurus referrences.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Justice:

I think we all understand (more or less) where you're coming from since the idea that 'Agency means the ability to choose' is the most common definition in the church. I just question if that is the right definition. Again, look it up in the dictionary.

Did the Lord make up a new definition for an existing word? If so, when did He define Agency as the ability or freedom to choose? Find me a reference, preferably from the time of Joseph Smith and the early church.

One of the meanings of Agency (according to dictionaries and thesauruses) is "Instrumentality".

If Satan said that he would "redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost" (Moses 4:1), wouldn't that destroy our "Instumentality"?

And when modern revelation says that, "a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he [satan] away from me because of their agency" (D&C 29:36), wouldn't it make sense that 'because of their Instrumentality' those who followed Satan were turned away from God in the rebellion we call the war in heaven?

That's just one way the dictionary definition can be understood.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Justice:

I think we all understand (more or less) where you're coming from since the idea that 'Agency means the ability to choose' is the most common definition in the church. I just question if that is the right definition. Again, look it up in the dictionary.

Did the Lord make up a new definition for an existing word? If so, when did He define Agency as the ability or freedom to choose? Find me a reference, preferably from the time of Joseph Smith and the early church. . .

And when modern revelation says that, "a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he [satan] away from me because of their agency" (D&C 29:36).

Could read. . .

and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he

away from me for the cause of their agency;

Hummmmmmmmmm

Bro. Rudcik

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share