A question about Satan's plan


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How would Satan have implemented his proposal to save all? (Leave additional comments if you like)  

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  1. 1. How would Satan have implemented his proposal to save all? (Leave additional comments if you like)

    • Require each person to atone for their own sins
    • Don't hold anyone accountable / Redeem all unconditionally
    • Force everyone to be good or to comply with the rules
    • Change the rules or laws so that nothing would be evil
    • Something else (please explain)
    • Don't know


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Good plan;-) But in this instance we have Lucifer, a confident, obedient son of

God who I believe had a plan to save all his brothers and sisters.

Then we have Satan. A being full of wrath and just wanting to get

even for not being recognized for the genius he believes he is. No

contradiction, just a change of circumstance and time....Bro. Rudick

That´s what I tried to explain before. Nooene could see, how the next

stand would really be. Indeed I can imagine that we played the game

"earthly family" very often in heaven because we had plenty of time.

Thus i´m of the same opinion that Lucifer´s original desire was not bad

but his plan was not perfect. He was disappointed that his "better" plan

was denied. Still thinking that he had a better plan he started the war in

heaven. Jehova and Michael threw him down to earth. At this moment

he lost his first stand and was excluded from the plan of Jehova to

receive an earthly life.

Realizing this he changed his mind and his plan "If they don´t like my

plan then I disturb the other plan." (behavior like a naughty child).

He regards our corpus and it´s possibilities (taste-tenderness-sexuality)

with envy.

That´s the reason why he and his lots of billions of fallen angels try to

enter into our corpus to participate on these feelings. The second reason

is the destruction of the corpus. You can see that most of his actions go

against the corpus: murder, violence, violation, rape, drugs....

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I believe Lucifer had a plan.

I also believe he threw most of it overboard in his wrath not having his way and having another preferred above him.

Do you think he may have formulated another plan during the eons? If so, I wonder if a combined task force of some elect Saints, together with some Heavenly Host, could covertly swipe Satan's Day Planner which would cause chaos and potentially thwart any subsequent project within that plan?

Just a thought.

:)

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...If so, I wonder if a combined task force of some elect Saints, together with some

Heavenly Host, could covertly swipe Satan's Day Planner which would cause

chaos and potentially thwart any subsequent project within that plan?....:)

This Task Force exists. As all these fallen angels are living on earth, close to us

and sometimes in us. They see us, they here us, but they can´t read our minds.

When we say a prayer, then they hear it, when we read the scritures, then they

listen. When we give a blessing with oil to a person who is afflicted by them then

they are touched. When we share our testimony about the gospel with them and

invite them to believe in Christ and the everlasting love of our heavenly parents -

then they remember their home in heaven and convert to Christ and then they

go to the light and never again return to Lucifer. Indeed I can confirm that Lucifer

is losing a lot of his followers.

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But remember, under Lucifer's plan there would not have been the command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil.

I have been avoiding sharing some parts of this because I feel they are sacred truths that have been revealed to me, and not for me to share. But, today, as I was pondering this, a way came to me that I can explain without sharing anything sacred.

I'll tell you now, you're going to have to read this post slowly, but I can promise you if you do it will help you understand Satan's purpose more clearly, even if you disagree with my final conclusion.

Let's step back and take a look at what we have.

Why did Satan tempt Eve to eat the fruit?

There are only 4 possibilities.

1. He wanted to destroy God's plan.

2. He wanted to help God's plan succeed.

3. He wanted to destroy his own plan.

4. He wanted to help his own plan succeed.

We'll rule out #3 using good ol' fashioned logic. It is safe to say he did not want to destroy his own plan, no matter what else he was trying to do.

We are left with:

1. He wanted to destroy God's plan.

2. He wanted to help God's plan succeed.

4. He wanted to help his own plan succeed.

1 is obvious. Yes, he wanted to destroy God's plan.

But, had that been his ONLY purpose, he would simply NOT TEMPT EVE. Had Eve not ate the fruit, then the agency of man would have been destroyed, and Satan would have accomplished his purpose, which #1 says to destroy God's plan

From this, I suppose there was more to him tempting Eve, than to simply destroy God's plan. To temp Eve to eat the fruit, he MUST have been after either 2 or 4 in combination with 1.

Now, the ONLY reason Satan would help God's plan succeed is if that step, tempting Eve, was part of his plan too. I mean, we can safely eliminate #2 as a stand alone possibility because we KNOW his whole purpose was to destroy God's plan.

Let's eliminate #2, unless someone has a good reason to keep it.

1. He wanted to destroy God's plan.

4. He wanted to help his own plan succeed.

So, logically, he tempted Eve to either destroy God's plan, which we already established that if that was his ONLY purpose, tempting Eve was the more dangerous way to go about it, because it put God's plan one step closer to fruition.

So, I can safely conclude that by tempting Eve, he was trying to bring about his own plan.

Does anyone disagree so far?

Tempting Eve wasn't his "back up plan" when God:

1) Gave man opposing commandments, or opposition... or law.

2) Gave man his agency.

Both of which were done before Satan tempted Eve. Since Satan tempted Eve (which would have destroyed God's plan not to) we can safely assume this was all part of what Satan wanted so far. Otherwise, he could have simply destroyed God's plan by just not tempting Eve.

So, I believe Satan's plan included giving the opposing commandments, and to give man his agency to eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.

Let's see what the scriptures say.

Genesis 1:

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

We know they became as gods, knowing good and evil:

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

So, Satan knew the fruit would grant them the knowledge of good and evil.

Back up to the pre-mortal existence. We knew we needed 2 things to be like our Father in Heaven, or to be like God.

1. We needed a physical body.

2. We needed the knowledge of good and evil.

If Satan's aleration of Father's plan did not include these essentials, then there's no way 1/3 of the hosts of heaven would have chosen his plan. Satan wouldn't have even proposed such a plan because he was trying to be exalted, too. These 2 things were requirements, and we all knew it.

Based on this, and other things that have been revealed to me which I am not at liberty to disclose, I propose tempting Eve was part of Satan's plan. I propose the 1 thing Satan wanted to change in Father's plan had to be AFTER Eve ate the fruit.

All the scriptures and logic point to that.

Does anyone disagree so far?

Ok. So, what could Satan do after tempting Eve to "destroy the agency of man?"

I'd like to note here that man had been given law (opposing commandments to choose between), and his agency. So, I propose that Satan's alteration of the plan was after these events, and after the 2 main purposes for Father's plan had been established.

Back to the question, what could Satan do after tempting Eve to "destroy the agency of man?"

I go back to Alma 12:

23 And now behold, I say unto you that if it had been possible for Adam to have partaken of the fruit of the tree of life at that time, there would have been no death, and the word would have been void, making God a liar, for he said: If thou eat thou shalt surely die.

Pay close attention to the next verse:

24 And we see that death comes upon mankind, yea, the death which has been spoken of by Amulek, which is the temporal death; nevertheless there was a space granted unto man in which he might repent; therefore this life became a probationary state; a time to prepare to meet God; a time to prepare for that endless state which has been spoken of by us, which is after the resurrection of the dead.

Without this space, state, or time, man would not have the ability to choose to return to God, or what Captain Moroni said was agency. He wanted to retain his freedom so they could worship God according to their desires.

Ok, back the original question, why did Satan tempt Eve?

Why Eve, and not Adam?

I will ask some questions, but will not reveral anything sacred to me:

What if Eve partook of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and THEN partook of the tree of life, without ever even telling Adam?

Some have said that Satan wanted to set Adam and Eve against each other and destroy their marriage. Well, this would have done it.

I propose Satan wanted Eve to partake of the tree of life AFTER partaking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

This would have accomplished all of Satan's designs, AND it would have been a way all mankind could have been redeemed, because all born to Eve at that point would have been immortal, because she would have been immortal after eathing the fruit. Plus, all points of Father's plan were in place.

I can see how this plan might have fooled some... "Let's go down to earth, but be born immortal and not even risk the need for repentance or ressurection or redemption. This way none of us will suffer, and all will be redeemed through the tree of life. It's part of Father's plan anyway, maybe Lucifer is right."

and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Since Lucifer propsed his ammendment in the pre-mortal existence, God knew his plan. This is why He:

23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

God knew Satan's plan and thwarted it by kicking man out of the Garden of Eden and by guarding the way back in.

My opinion is that Satan's plan was to have Eve eat the tree of life afterward, and he confirms this by say she wouldn't die... which she wouldn't have IF she ate the tree of life. Satan loves those half-truths.

Edited by Justice
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To Vort and PastorBob I agree with what other's have said. We are discussing the proposal that Satan offered in the pre-mortal existance, not what he is currently trying to do. They are not necessarily the same, and in my view they are completely different things.

To any who think that we have no knowledge about what his proposal was read Moses 4:1-4. Satan's own words were that he would redeem all, that not one soul would be lost, and God's commentary which follows informs us that Satan sought to destroy the agency of man. We also learn that Satan wanted God's honor, which is His glory.

The ideas that have been expressed so far have been interesting. I do not think we can ever be certain of what went on in the pre-mortal existance, but I know I have learned from the views that have been shared, and have received new insights into the gospel and the scriptures through this exercise.

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We are discussing the proposal that Satan offered in the pre-mortal existance, not what he is currently trying to do.

Yes, once Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden of Eden, and not able to partake of the tree of life, Satan wanted all to become "anti-Christ" and believe they could not be redeemed. Look closely at the question asked to Alma in chapter 12 before he answered with the quote I have given:

20 But there was one Antionah, who was a chief ruler among them, came forth and said unto him: What is this that thou hast said, that man should rise from the dead and be changed from this mortal to an immortal state, that the soul can never die?

21 What does the scripture mean, which saith that God placed cherubim and a flaming sword on the east of the garden of Eden, lest our first parents should enter and partake of the fruit of the tree of life, and live forever? And thus we see that there was no possible chance that they should live forever.

Anti-Christ. Christ is not the answer. There will be no Christ. The tree of life was the answer, and now it's too late.

This is Satan's stand now.

He is anti-Christ.

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To Vort and PastorBob I agree with what other's have said. We are discussing the proposal that Satan offered in the pre-mortal existance, not what he is currently trying to do.

Satan offered no "proposal" premortally. He wished to be the chosen one and usurp God's glory for himself. To that end, he promised something he was powerless to do -- namely, exalt all God's children. He had no "plan" to do such a thing, because it could not be done. He was lying. But those who wished to believe him did so, not unlike the situation we experience today.

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He had no "plan" to do such a thing, because it could not be done.

This is bad logic, and insufficient data to draw that conclusion with.

There have been lots of plans thoughout history that could not work, that doesn't mean there was no plan.

They designed and built the Titanic to be an "unsinkable ship." It sunk. That does not mean there were no plan. It just means the plans did not produce the desired results.

Also, just because you are unaware of something does not automatically mean it does not exist. If you believed that, that would be even worse logic than the first example of bad logic.

As has been stated, Satan's plan was an altered version of God's plan. If you do not believe the Book of Mormon is scripture, and you look just in the Bible, this plan is not duscussed in an detail. The Book of Mormon prophets discuss this plan in detail.

You obviously did not read my last, long post, that gave good logic, quoted scripture, and almost irrefutable evidence of Satan's plan.

Edited by Justice
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He had no "plan" to do such a thing, because it could not be done.

This is bad logic, and insufficient data to draw that conclusion with.

Not at all. There is plenty of evidence for this. For example, if such a thing could be done, then God is not all-powerful, since he's not doing it. I assume you reject the premise that God is not all-powerful; ergo, it cannot be done.

Simple logic.

There have been lots of plans thoughout history that could not work, that doesn't mean there was no plan.

True enough. So show me in scripture where Satan's "plan" is discussed.

They designed and built the Titanic to be an "unsinkalbe ship."

No, "they" didn't. That was marketing hype. "They" did design the Titanic with features that were supposed to lessen the probability of its sinking. This is much different from your claim, though.

Also, just because you are unaware of something does not automatically mean it does not exist.

True enough. So I've been asking for someone to demonstrate the claim that Satan had some great "plan" that would supersede God's plan -- that is, a "plan" beyond simply usurping God's glory, as the scriptures state. Please provide the relevant scriptures.

As has been stated, Satan's plan was an altered version of God's plan.

Again: Please provide scriptures illustrating this "altered version of God's plan". The scriptures say only two things on this matter:

  • Satan wished to usurp God's glory, and
  • Satan promised that "not one soul shall be lost".

Beyond this, I have never noticed the least implication of a premortal Satanic "plan" of any sort. I eagerly await your elucidation.

If you do not believe the Book of Mormon is scripture, and you look just in the Bible, this plan is not duscussed in an detail. The Book of Mormon prophets discuss this plan in detail.

Excellent. Please show me where.

You obviously did not read my last, long post, that gave good logic, quoted scripture, and almost irrefutable evidence of Satan's plan.

I did indeed read your last post. It was far from irrefutable. I felt it not worthwhile to respond laboriously, point by point, to what seemed to be rather obvious deficiencies in your arguments.

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I'd like to see them, your arguments, up until the first "does everyone agree" marker.

I realize I threw a lot of information, and I also realize that there are other truths one must come to know before they know of later ones.

So, please, just go one point at a time and show me where you disagree. One short post with one point, and we'll go point by point until one of us gets bored. :)

And, I read a history book where the chief designer made the statement, "this ship will be unsinkable," during the design phase. I based my comment on his. It is possible he did not make that comment. History can be emotion, if one is not careful.

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For example, if such a thing could be done, then God is not all-powerful, since he's not doing it. I assume you reject the premise that God is not all-powerful; ergo, it cannot be done.

Simple logic.

Apparently not too simple. :)

Again, just because someone makes a plan to dethrone God, that does not make God all un-powerful. You admit that such a plan can not be, because it is impossible. However, again, Satan's plan did not work; ergo, it could not work. That does not mean he did not have a plan.

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Apparently not too simple. :)

Again, just because someone makes a plan to dethrone God, that does not make God all un-powerful. You admit that such a plan can not be, because it is impossible. However, again, Satan's plan did not work; ergo, it could not work. That does not mean he did not have a plan.

But, Justice, here's the point: YOU are making a claim, so YOU must establish that claim.

Your claim: Satan had a plan in opposition to God's plan. Not merely a "plan" to usurp God's glory for himself, or a "plan" to destroy the agency of man, but a plan specifically in opposition to God's plan.

Please demonstrate this claim from scripture. I say it is not there, though I'm perfectly willing to be proven wrong. It won't be the first time.

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I'd like to see them, your arguments, up until the first "does everyone agree" marker.

Okay, Justice, I will go through your post, though I expect you and I are the only ones who will bother to read this.

I'll tell you now, you're going to have to read this post slowly, but I can promise you if you do it will help you understand Satan's purpose more clearly, even if you disagree with my final conclusion.

Unfortunately, your promise was not realized. :(

Why did Satan tempt Eve to eat the fruit?

There are only 4 possibilities.

Not the case at all. There are innumerable possibilities. For example:

5. He wanted some third party's plan, not his own or God's, to succeed/fail.

6. He wanted to cause havoc, irregardless of whose plan succeeded/failed.

7. It was all just an honest misunderstanding; Lucifer was simply trying to help Adam and Eve get some good eats, having misunderstood God's injunction as a musical injunction against the "forbidden flute".

Absurd, you say? Perhaps, but certainly no moreso than claiming that Lucifer actually believed he could outthink and outplan the Almighty.

We are left with:

1. He wanted to destroy God's plan.

2. He wanted to help God's plan succeed.

4. He wanted to help his own plan succeed.

1 is obvious. Yes, he wanted to destroy God's plan.

But, had that been his ONLY purpose, he would simply NOT TEMPT EVE. Had Eve not ate the fruit, then the agency of man would have been destroyed, and Satan would have accomplished his purpose, which #1 says to destroy God's plan

Illogical. You are assuming that, had he personally not deceived Eve into disobeying God, she never would have eaten of the fruit. This is neither logical nor true; the endowment presentation demonstrates this to be false.

From this, I suppose there was more to him tempting Eve, than to simply destroy God's plan.

And you are free so to suppose, but that's not a logical argument.

To temp Eve to eat the fruit, he MUST have been after either 2 or 4 in combination with 1.

Your conclusion is based on a faulty premise.

I mean, we can safely eliminate #2 as a stand alone possibility because we KNOW his whole purpose was to destroy God's plan.

But didn't you just get through saying that destroying God's plan WASN'T his whole purpose, but that he had another Satanic plan he wanted to implement instead? Your argument is not self-consistent.

1. He wanted to destroy God's plan.

4. He wanted to help his own plan succeed.

So, logically, he tempted Eve to either destroy God's plan, which we already established that if that was his ONLY purpose, tempting Eve was the more dangerous way to go about it, because it put God's plan one step closer to fruition.

We established no such thing. Your conclusion was based on faulty logic; you simply stated the above to be the case, then said you had demonstrated it. Asserting a thing is not the same as demonstrating it.

So, I can safely conclude that by tempting Eve, he was trying to bring about his own plan.

Indeed, you may safely conclude anything you wish. That doesn't make it logical, or even true.

Tempting Eve wasn't his "back up plan" when God:

1) Gave man opposing commandments, or opposition... or law.

This is illogical. God is just. Giving "opposing commandments" and forcing a being to choose to be disobedient to one or the other, then punishing that being for disobedience, is unjust.

Since Satan tempted Eve (which would have destroyed God's plan not to)

I disagree.

we can safely assume this was all part of what Satan wanted so far.

Again, you may safely assume anything you wish. No one will blow your head off for so doing. But you would still be wrong.

So, I believe Satan's plan included giving the opposing commandments, and to give man his agency to eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.

You may believe whatever you wish, but you have established none of this -- not even the most basic point you claim, that Satan had a well-defined plan for humanity beyond usurping God's glory and, later, seeking to destroy the agency of man.

Back up to the pre-mortal existence. We knew we needed 2 things to be like our Father in Heaven, or to be like God.

1. We needed a physical body.

2. We needed the knowledge of good and evil.

Untrue. We need a lot more than these two things; otherwise, I am like God right now.

If Satan's aleration of Father's plan did not include these essentials, then there's no way 1/3 of the hosts of heaven would have chosen his plan.

Please logically demonstrate this. You are already claiming that "the third part" (which may or may not mean 1/3, as you erroneously imply) followed a being in open rebellion against the Almighty, merely on the strength of his supposed "plan". If we are going to accept such an outrageous proposition, why would we balk at thinking that maybe he convinced them that such things weren't necessary, as the Almighty had said? After all, they already disbelieved that God's plan was better than Satan's supposed "plan", so why not believe the other, as well?

Satan wouldn't have even proposed such a plan because he was trying to be exalted, too.

What makes you think so? You haven't established this.

Based on this, and other things that have been revealed to me which I am not at liberty to disclose

So we're supposed to give you extra credence because you have some secret revelations that we aren't privvy to and that you can't share, but that make you wiser than the rest of us?

Uh-huh.

Sorry, Justice, but that doesn't wash.

I propose tempting Eve was part of Satan's plan. I propose the 1 thing Satan wanted to change in Father's plan had to be AFTER Eve ate the fruit.

You may propose whatever you wish. Unfortunately, you haven't established any of this yet.

All the scriptures and logic point to that.

So far, you have demonstrated neither scriptures nor logic pointing to your conclusion.

Does anyone disagree so far?

<Vort raises hand>

Ok. So, what could Satan do after tempting Eve to "destroy the agency of man?"

[...]

I propose Satan wanted Eve to partake of the tree of life AFTER partaking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

How is this Satan's grand premortal plan? "None shall be lost", because -- what? Eve partakes of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and then of the tree of life, so therefore no one shall be lost?

This would have accomplished all of Satan's designs, AND it would have been a way all mankind could have been redeemed, because all born to Eve at that point would have been immortal, because she would have been immortal after eathing the fruit. Plus, all points of Father's plan were in place.

But, as surely even the premortal Lucifer fully realized, immortality != redemption. So your idea above is not internally cohesive. Getting Eve to do as you suggest would not result in her redemption, much less that of her children. It's a complete non sequitur. It's like saying, "Satan wanted Eve to eat of the fruit because that way all of her sons would have long black beards and be rich."

My opinion is that Satan's plan was to have Eve eat the tree of life afterward, and he confirms this by say she wouldn't die... which she wouldn't have IF she ate the tree of life. Satan loves those half-truths.

Of course, the other possibility to consider is that Satan was lying. That idea works for me.

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I think I understand your question. You are saying that just because Satan planned to usurp God's glory for himself is not proof he had a plan to oppose God's plan.

I will post those scriptures again, and offer comments:

D&C 29:

36 And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;

1. Satan rebelled against God

2. Satan sought God's honor

3. God's honor is His power

4. Satan turned away 1/3 of the hosts of heaven, because of their agency

What is this scripture saying? What is agency? Who gave man his agency?

Let's move on:

Moses 7:

32 The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency;

1. God gave man his agency in the garden of Eden.

Ok, here is the seeming contradiction.

1. Satan turned 1/3 of the hosts of heaven away from Him because of their God-given agency.

2. God gave man his agency in the Garden of Eden.

If God gave man his agency in the Garden of Eden, how was it man chose against God in the pre-mortal existence (which was before the Garden of Eden)?

Answer: Man has inherent agency to act for himself, which God will not take away. This is true from the moment he is "created" by God. What God gave man in the Garden of Eden was a place (earth) with opposites (multiply and replenish the earth, yet do not eat of the tree of that knowledge) that he may freely exercise his agency and be redeemed for choosing against God's will. This abilty to freely exercise his agency to choose against God's will was not given to man in the pre-mortal existence. Choosing against God in God's presence meant there could be no redemption.

One last scripture:

Moses 4:

3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;

Satan sought.

Satan planned.

Satan sought to destroy man's agency which God had given him in the Garden of Eden.

Satan wanted that which was oppostie of what God wanted, or he opposed His plan.

Satan planned to take away man's agency on earth.

There can be no other interpretation of these scriptures, and bring all 3 in harmony.

Satan planned to take away what God had predetermined to give them.

Giving man his agency was essential to his salvation. God's work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. Giving man his agency was the power God possessed that Satan wanted.

D&C 29:

36 And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;

Satan is saying, "Give me the ability to reatin or give to man his agency. Let me take away his agency and I'll show you how we can save them all. I'm going to change your plan. I have my own plan."

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That´s what I tried to explain before. Nooene could see, how the next

stand would really be. Indeed I can imagine that we played the game

"earthly family" very often in heaven because we had plenty of time.

Thus i´m of the same opinion that Lucifer´s original desire was not bad

but his plan was not perfect. He was disappointed that his "better" plan

was denied. Still thinking that he had a better plan he started the war in

heaven. Jehova and Michael threw him down to earth. At this moment

he lost his first stand and was excluded from the plan of Jehova to

receive an earthly life.

Realizing this he changed his mind and his plan "If they don´t like my

plan then I disturb the other plan." (behavior like a naughty child).

He regards our corpus and it´s possibilities (taste-tenderness-sexuality)

with envy.

That´s the reason why he and his lots of billions of fallen angels try to

enter into our corpus to participate on these feelings. The second reason

is the destruction of the corpus. You can see that most of his actions go

against the corpus: murder, violence, violation, rape, drugs....

:) :D:P :)

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Not the case at all. There are innumerable possibilities. For example:

5. He wanted some third party's plan, not his own or God's, to succeed/fail.

6. He wanted to cause havoc, irregardless of whose plan succeeded/failed.

7. It was all just an honest misunderstanding; Lucifer was simply trying to help Adam and Eve get some good eats, having misunderstood God's injunction as a musical injunction against the "forbidden flute".

Absurd, you say? Perhaps, but certainly no moreso than claiming that Lucifer actually believed he could outthink and outplan the Almighty.

Based on this much of your reply, it is clear you're right about one thing. This discussion won't get us anywhere.

Thank you for the reply.

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Quote:

I mean, we can safely eliminate #2 as a stand alone possibility because we KNOW his whole purpose was to destroy God's plan.

But didn't you just get through saying that destroying God's plan WASN'T his whole purpose, but that he had another Satanic plan he wanted to implement instead? Your argument is not self-consistent.

Yes, poorly worded on my part. It should be:

I mean, we can safely eliminate #2 as a stand alone possibility because we KNOW part of his purpose was to destroy God's plan.

Thank you for pointing that out.

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I have been avoiding sharing some parts of this because I feel they are sacred truths that have been revealed to me, and not for me to share. But, today, as I was pondering this, a way came to me that I can explain without sharing anything sacred.

I'll tell you now, you're going to have to read this post slowly, but I can promise you if you do it will help you understand Satan's purpose more clearly, even if you disagree with my final conclusion.

Let's step back and take a look at what we have.

Why did Satan tempt Eve to eat the fruit?

There are only 4 possibilities.

1. He wanted to destroy God's plan.

2. He wanted to help God's plan succeed.

3. He wanted to destroy his own plan.

4. He wanted to help his own plan succeed.

We'll rule out #3 using good ol' fashioned logic. It is safe to say he did not want to destroy his own plan, no matter what else he was trying to do.

We are left with:

1. He wanted to destroy God's plan.

2. He wanted to help God's plan succeed.

4. He wanted to help his own plan succeed.

1 is obvious. Yes, he wanted to destroy God's plan.

But, had that been his ONLY purpose, he would simply NOT TEMPT EVE. Had Eve not ate the fruit, then the agency of man would have been destroyed, and Satan would have accomplished his purpose, which #1 says to destroy God's plan

From this, I suppose there was more to him tempting Eve, than to simply destroy God's plan. To temp Eve to eat the fruit, he MUST have been after either 2 or 4 in combination with 1.

Now, the ONLY reason Satan would help God's plan succeed is if that step, tempting Eve, was part of his plan too. I mean, we can safely eliminate #2 as a stand alone possibility because we KNOW his whole purpose was to destroy God's plan.

Let's eliminate #2, unless someone has a good reason to keep it.

1. He wanted to destroy God's plan.

4. He wanted to help his own plan succeed.

So, logically, he tempted Eve to either destroy God's plan, which we already established that if that was his ONLY purpose, tempting Eve was the more dangerous way to go about it, because it put God's plan one step closer to fruition.

So, I can safely conclude that by tempting Eve, he was trying to bring about his own plan.

Does anyone disagree so far?

Tempting Eve wasn't his "back up plan" when God:

1) Gave man opposing commandments, or opposition... or law.

2) Gave man his agency.

Both of which were done before Satan tempted Eve. Since Satan tempted Eve (which would have destroyed God's plan not to) we can safely assume this was all part of what Satan wanted so far. Otherwise, he could have simply destroyed God's plan by just not tempting Eve.

So, I believe Satan's plan included giving the opposing commandments, and to give man his agency to eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.

Let's see what the scriptures say.

Genesis 1:

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

We know they became as gods, knowing good and evil:

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

So, Satan knew the fruit would grant them the knowledge of good and evil.

Back up to the pre-mortal existence. We knew we needed 2 things to be like our Father in Heaven, or to be like God.

1. We needed a physical body.

2. We needed the knowledge of good and evil.

If Satan's aleration of Father's plan did not include these essentials, then there's no way 1/3 of the hosts of heaven would have chosen his plan. Satan wouldn't have even proposed such a plan because he was trying to be exalted, too. These 2 things were requirements, and we all knew it.

Based on this, and other things that have been revealed to me which I am not at liberty to disclose, I propose tempting Eve was part of Satan's plan. I propose the 1 thing Satan wanted to change in Father's plan had to be AFTER Eve ate the fruit.

All the scriptures and logic point to that.

Does anyone disagree so far?

Ok. So, what could Satan do after tempting Eve to "destroy the agency of man?"

I'd like to note here that man had been given law (opposing commandments to choose between), and his agency. So, I propose that Satan's alteration of the plan was after these events, and after the 2 main purposes for Father's plan had been established.

Back to the question, what could Satan do after tempting Eve to "destroy the agency of man?"

I go back to Alma 12:

23 And now behold, I say unto you that if it had been possible for Adam to have partaken of the fruit of the tree of life at that time, there would have been no death, and the word would have been void, making God a liar, for he said: If thou eat thou shalt surely die.

Pay close attention to the next verse:

24 And we see that death comes upon mankind, yea, the death which has been spoken of by Amulek, which is the temporal death; nevertheless there was a space granted unto man in which he might repent; therefore this life became a probationary state; a time to prepare to meet God; a time to prepare for that endless state which has been spoken of by us, which is after the resurrection of the dead.

Without this space, state, or time, man would not have the ability to choose to return to God, or what Captain Moroni said was agency. He wanted to retain his freedom so they could worship God according to their desires.

Ok, back the original question, why did Satan tempt Eve?

Why Eve, and not Adam?

I will ask some questions, but will not reveral anything sacred to me:

What if Eve partook of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and THEN partook of the tree of life, without ever even telling Adam?

Some have said that Satan wanted to set Adam and Eve against each other and destroy their marriage. Well, this would have done it.

I propose Satan wanted Eve to partake of the tree of life AFTER partaking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

This would have accomplished all of Satan's designs, AND it would have been a way all mankind could have been redeemed, because all born to Eve at that point would have been immortal, because she would have been immortal after eathing the fruit. Plus, all points of Father's plan were in place.

I can see how this plan might have fooled some... "Let's go down to earth, but be born immortal and not even risk the need for repentance or ressurection or redemption. This way none of us will suffer, and all will be redeemed through the tree of life. It's part of Father's plan anyway, maybe Lucifer is right."

and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Since Lucifer propsed his ammendment in the pre-mortal existence, God knew his plan. This is why He:

23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

God knew Satan's plan and thwarted it by kicking man out of the Garden of Eden and by guarding the way back in.

My opinion is that Satan's plan was to have Eve eat the tree of life afterward, and he confirms this by say she wouldn't die... which she wouldn't have IF she ate the tree of life. Satan loves those half-truths.

I believe some of this had occurred to me but I have never seen it written out this way before.

I copied this down and will try to dissect it later.

Thanks but hadnt some of this occurred to some of you also?

Will get back on this later perhaps

Edited by JohnnyRudick
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Satan offered no "proposal" premortally. He wished to be the chosen one and usurp God's glory for himself. To that end, he promised something he was powerless to do -- namely, exalt all God's children. He had no "plan" to do such a thing, because it could not be done. He was lying. But those who wished to believe him did so, not unlike the situation we experience today.

"He was lying"

About what?

"But those who wished to believe him did so. . ."

Believe him about what? His plan?

He had to propose something.

He had to lay out some grandiose design to entice.

What was it.

Three or four sentences?

Bro. Rudick

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I've been reading a book by Annalee Skarin, "Ye Are Gods" which I think sheds some light on some aspects of the Fall.

One of the concepts she illustrates is the importance of thoughts. What is the Light of Christ that "lights every man"? Is it not a constant stream of consciousness that flows from the presence of God? That "LIGHT" that is in all things and through all things? We progress towards God (or Satan) primarily by the thoughts we keep in our minds. Thoughts that breed more thoughts, thoughts that eventually bring forth action (either evil or good). "For as a man thinketh, so is he."

Why was the Creation described the way it was?

Look closely at the word choice:

  • Gen. 1: 11-12, 21, 24-25

    11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

    12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

    • • •

    21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

    • • •

    24 ¶ And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

    25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Similar language can be found in Moses 2: 11-12, 21, 24-25 and Abr. 4: 11-12, 21, 24-25

It all becomes clear when you equate "after his kind" with THOUGHT.

God commanded Adam and Eve to BE FRUITFUL AND MULTIPLY.

Seeds, when nourished, bring forth Trees. Trees have within themselves ... Seeds. Those Seeds, when nourished, bring forth Trees.

Orange Trees ALWAYS yield seeds which result in MORE Orange Trees.

Killer Whales have baby Killer Whales which grow-up and have MORE Killer Whales.

All things bring forth after the manner of their own kind.

What is God trying to TELL us?

He is trying to tell us that THIS is the way ALL OF CREATION works -- including us. Including THOUGHTS. Good thoughts breed more good thoughts which breed more good thoughts. Which result in good acts. Which results in us BECOMING GOOD. We become what we focus upon. We seek what we focus upon.

========================

========================

Now to bring this home to the whole AGENCY thing and the Garden of Eden.

Heavenly Father has no shadow of changing ... particularly in regard to His THOUGHTS. His THOUGHTS are always loving, always kind, always positive, always bound by eternal TRUTH.

What would it take for God to cease to be God? What would it take for someone to NOT be able to remain in the presence of God?

I think it would boil down to ERRANT THOUGHTS. EVIL THOUGHTS, IDLE THOUGHTS. When you are a God -- an errant thought is a big deal. Why? Because it is by the power of THOUGHT that Gods organizes and maintains countless worlds, galaxies, universes, you name it -- and keeps them coherent.

Alma 30: 44

44 But Alma said unto him: Thou hast had signs enough; will ye tempt your God? Will ye say, Show unto me a sign, when ye have the testimony of all these thy brethren, and also all the holy prophets? The scriptures are laid before thee, yea, and all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator.

What is revelation? It is God revealing, to the mind, His THOUGHTS.

So ... TREES bear fruit after THEIR KIND. So, after a manner of thinking, to partake of the FRUIT of a TREE is to EMBRACE THOUGHTS OF ONE KIND OR ANOTHER.

I believe this is what was represented by the TREES in the garden. It had nothing to do with what the fruit of those trees PHYSICALLY represented, but rather, what it meant SPIRITUALLY to partake of their fruit.

To partake of the fruit of the Tree of Life was to KEEP ONE'S THOUGHTS IN HARMONY WITH THE THOUGHTS OF GOD, AND THUS BE ABLE TO WALK AND TALK WITH GOD, AND REMAIN IN HIS PRESENCE.

To partake of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was to DO THE EXACT OPPOSITE. THOUGHTS NOT IN HARMONY WITH GOD. NOT BEING ABLE TO WALK AND TALK WITH GOD ANY LONGER. NOT BEING ABLE TO REMAIN IN HIS PRESENCE.

Tempations are thoughts.

The Enticing of the Holy Ghost is also thoughts.

We are free to choose upon which we focus. Which thoughts we will ingest, digest, hunger and thirst for.

The Law of Production. Of things bearing fruit after their own kind:

D&C 130: 20-21

20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

ONE LAW -- upon which ALL BLESSINGS are predicated.

18 Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection. 19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.

20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

23 A man may receive the Holy Ghost, and it may descend upon him and not tarry with him.

What is the RESULT of having the Holy Ghost "descend upon us" ???

OUR THOUGHTS ARE GOD'S THOUGHTS.

"that they may always have His Spirit to be with them"

Why is this promise so prized, so important, that it is repeated to us week after week after week?

Because it is THE KEY to receiving all that the Father hath. All of His THOUGHTS. For that is the effect of having HIS SPIRIT (LIGHT OF CHRIST) to be with us always.

Christ taught this all through His ministry:

John 5: 23-24, 30, 33, 36-38

23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

• • •

30 I can of mine own self do nothing: [[ REMEMBER, THIS IS JESUS SPEAKING!!]] as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

HOW WAS THE FATHER'S WORDS, OR WILL, REVEALED TO CHRIST? THROUGH THOUGHTS.

• • •

33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.

• • •

36 ¶ But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

Edited by tomk
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All I know is my head hurts when I try to understand his logic.

Maybe he IS a lawyer. :)

I don't mean any offense by this post. I realize people are different. His head probably hurts when he reads my logic, too. He is entitled to his opinion, and I do try hard to understand him.

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Yes, Tom, you and I have talked about the seeds before.

There are 3 different seeds spoken of in the scriptures. Eve comments where she learned about all 3 through the fall:

Moses 5:

11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

Scripture references of Seed:

1) Word of God (eternal life)

2) Offspring (know good and evil)

3) Till the earth for food (joy of redemption)

All 3 are necessary to exist in a mortal sphere and be redeemed from it.

Edited by Justice
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I've been reading a book by Annalee Skarin, "Ye Are Gods" which I think sheds some light on some aspects of the Fall.

One of the concepts she illustrates is the importance of thoughts. What is the Light of Christ that "lights every man"? Is it not a constant stream of consciousness that flows from the presence of God? That "LIGHT" that is in all things and through all things? We progress towards God (or Satan) primarily by the thoughts we keep in our minds. Thoughts that breed more thoughts, thoughts that eventually bring forth action (either evil or good). "For as a man thinketh, so is he."

Why was the Creation described the way it was?

Look closely at the word choice:

  • Gen. 1: 11-12, 21, 24-25

    11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

    12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

    • • •

    21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

    • • •

    24 ¶ And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

    25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Similar language can be found in Moses 2: 11-12, 21, 24-25 and Abr. 4: 11-12, 21, 24-25

It all becomes clear when you equate "after his kind" with THOUGHT.

God commanded Adam and Eve to BE FRUITFUL AND MULTIPLY.

Seeds, when nourished, bring forth Trees. Trees have within themselves ... Seeds. Those Seeds, when nourished, bring forth Trees.

Orange Trees ALWAYS yield seeds which result in MORE Orange Trees.

Killer Whales have baby Killer Whales which grow-up and have MORE Killer Whales.

All things bring forth after the manner of their own kind.

What is God trying to TELL us?

He is trying to tell us that THIS is the way ALL OF CREATION works -- including us. Including THOUGHTS. Good thoughts breed more good thoughts which breed more good thoughts. Which result in good acts. Which results in us BECOMING GOOD. We become what we focus upon. We seek what we focus upon.

========================

========================

Now to bring this home to the whole AGENCY thing and the Garden of Eden.

Heavenly Father has no shadow of changing ... particularly in regard to His THOUGHTS. His THOUGHTS are always loving, always kind, always positive, always bound by eternal TRUTH.

What would it take for God to cease to be God? What would it take for someone to NOT be able to remain in the presence of God?

I think it would boil down to ERRANT THOUGHTS. EVIL THOUGHTS, IDLE THOUGHTS. When you are a God -- an errant thought is a big deal. Why? Because it is by the power of THOUGHT that Gods organizes and maintains countless worlds, galaxies, universes, you name it -- and keeps them coherent.

Alma 30: 44

44 But Alma said unto him: Thou hast had signs enough; will ye tempt your God? Will ye say, Show unto me a sign, when ye have the testimony of all these thy brethren, and also all the holy prophets? The scriptures are laid before thee, yea, and all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator.

What is revelation? It is God revealing, to the mind, His THOUGHTS.

So ... TREES bear fruit after THEIR KIND. So, after a manner of thinking, to partake of the FRUIT of a TREE is to EMBRACE THOUGHTS OF ONE KIND OR ANOTHER.

I believe this is what was represented by the TREES in the garden. It had nothing to do with what the fruit of those trees PHYSICALLY represented, but rather, what it meant SPIRITUALLY to partake of their fruit.

To partake of the fruit of the Tree of Life was to KEEP ONE'S THOUGHTS IN HARMONY WITH THE THOUGHTS OF GOD, AND THUS BE ABLE TO WALK AND TALK WITH GOD, AND REMAIN IN HIS PRESENCE.

To partake of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was to DO THE EXACT OPPOSITE. THOUGHTS NOT IN HARMONY WITH GOD. NOT BEING ABLE TO WALK AND TALK WITH GOD ANY LONGER. NOT BEING ABLE TO REMAIN IN HIS PRESENCE.

Tempations are thoughts.

The Enticing of the Holy Ghost is also thoughts.

We are free to choose upon which we focus. Which thoughts we will ingest, digest, hunger and thirst for.

The Law of Production. Of things bearing fruit after their own kind:

D&C 130: 20-21

20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

ONE LAW -- upon which ALL BLESSINGS are predicated.

18 Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection. 19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.

20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

23 A man may receive the Holy Ghost, and it may descend upon him and not tarry with him.

What is the RESULT of having the Holy Ghost "descend upon us" ???

OUR THOUGHTS ARE GOD'S THOUGHTS.

"that they may always have His Spirit to be with them"

Why is this promise so prized, so important, that it is repeated to us week after week after week?

Because it is THE KEY to receiving all that the Father hath. All of His THOUGHTS. For that is the effect of having HIS SPIRIT (LIGHT OF CHRIST) to be with us always.

Christ taught this all through His ministry:

John 5: 23-24, 30, 33, 36-38

23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

• • •

30 I can of mine own self do nothing: [[ REMEMBER, THIS IS JESUS SPEAKING!!]] as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

HOW WAS THE FATHER'S WORDS, OR WILL, REVEALED TO CHRIST? THROUGH THOUGHTS.

• • •

33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.

• • •

36 ¶ But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

Words for thought.

I've copied this down and will go over it again later.

Thanks:)

Bro. Rudick

Edited by JohnnyRudick
After thought;-)
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