Would you sell alcohol or tobacco?

[Hemidakota]

I live in the UK and there are people of a certain religion that seem to run alot of stores. There religion teaches them that drinking alcohol is really bad and they are forbidden from drinking it. Yet, ive never been in a single store that members of this religion own, not selling alcohol.

What im asking is: If you owned a store. As an LDS member. Would you or could you sell alcohol or tobacco?

Personally, i couldnt. I would feel like i was a hipocrite.

Who is worse, the junkie or the drug dealer? I would say the dealer is.

Thanks.

What did Marriot do in this situation?

[blessedinarizonia]

Islander, I agree with you. Each of us have to follow the spirit as it guides us. In my case I went the exta step and counciled with my Bishop. I was fully prepared to leave my job when he told me that he didn't think I was doing anything wrong. During these years I held many church callings I attended the temple every week. S served a stake mission when they had stake missions. I served two ward missions and a senior mission. I go to womens conference every year and have for many years. I have even thought of moving to Provo. I have also been to the temple there. My job was just that a job and nothing more. Maxel I hope you keep posting. I enjoy you so much. You have inspired me at times when I needed it. Thanks for your inspriation.

[Hemidakota]

Islander, if you are referring the examples I gave, making the issue a bit blurry was exactly my desire :). I wanted to show how non-black and white this issue is. Even if you were referring to another post (Maxel's?), I agree with you all the same :-)

This is another good example of why personal revelation is so important. I hold firm to the idea that it's impossible to look to scripture, conference talks, and the Church Handbook for the answers to every puzzle that comes up in life. Eventually we will all run into choices that require us to think for ourselves, make our own choices, and then get on our knees and ask God if we have chosen correctly.

Neither my husband or I have ever been confronted with the prospect of providing for our family with proceeds from non-Word-of-Wisdom approved products, so this particular issue has never been an issue.... for us. But we know people for whom it has been an issue. Some have decided that a change in career was required. Others have decided that a change in career was not required.

Both are correct.

Janice

Hopefully your job does not include selling dark chocolates, ice cream, sodas, and anything that is caffeinated...

[Hemidakota]

You make some good points, a-train.

He would also occasionally ride through Nauvoo smoking a cigar to 'test the Saints'. I don't claim to know all of the reasoning that went into Joseph Smith's actions- I can safely say that he was inspired of God in what he did right, and justified by God in what he did wrong. However, I do know that the Word of Wisdom is nowadays upheld as a strict commandment of God- it is no longer required that a prophet test the saints in such a matter. I think a more concise restatement of the OP's question would be:

Would you own, operate, and be responsible for a company that distributes and sells liquor and/or tobacco, when there was no other option for making a viable living?

(My apologies to you, Lost_Sheep, if I've misunderstood your original question)

The basic question becomes, would you allow and work for the distribution of chemicals to be used in ways prohibited by God to support your own family? Depending on the type and quantity of faith of the specific Saint, I can see the answer being 'yes' or 'no' without violating the most fundamental laws of the Gospel- no matter how close said Saint may or may not be to crossing the line of righteousness.

Furthermore, the question could be changed and nuanced differently. For example, if there was an alternate solution to selling tobacco/liquor for making a decent living, the question changes. The principles at hand become 'distributing substances forbidden by God, when other options are available VS. supporting one's family'- or, if the question was merely 'would you work at an establishment (as waiter, clerk, etc.) that sold liquor/tobacco?' the relevant principles again change ('working for another who distributes substances forbidden by God VS. supporting one's family). Even a person's personal situation changes the question- what if the person in question is single and only needs to take care of him/herself? What if the person in question is a single parent and only has training to be a bartender, and has no other viable options to make a living? What is the person's familiarity with Church doctrine and the Gospel, and how long has said person been a member of the Church? Which principles of the Gospel has the person in question internalized vs. which principles is the person struggling to understand and learn?

In my opinion, this is a question faaar from black and white- and again, an answer of 'yes' or 'no' is no accurate reflection on a person's righteousness. (I make this disclaimer because I fear I'm losing my powers of tact and charity in these forums... I don't want to seem to be calling anyone unrighteous or a hypocrite.)

Side note- I've heard that when the decision was passed to make pornographic movies accessible to the public, President Marriot no longer was on the Board of Directors (or whoever made the final decision) and therefore had no real say in the matter. I don't know if that's true or not (and have no idea where to verify the information), and I don't know about the sale of alcohol and tobacco- but this is an interesting case point.

I agree with the idea presented, but I disagree with the underlying sentiment of the idea as applied to this situation. The question is not 'should others do so?' but 'should I do so?'- we are not minding others' business, we are minding our own. We can no longer afford others benefits of the doubt, nor can we assume there are situations we are not aware of. We become the judges of our own souls, and are knowledgeable of all vital information pertaining to the matter. If the question shifts and becomes 'should others do so?' then we run into the idea of minding our own business- but not until then.

Furthermore, there must be deeper spiritual meanings behind the 'MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS' policy of the 1900's- if not, then the practice has changed, as the LDS Church is beginning to mind the business of the non-LDS public with its public support of Proposition 8 (please, please, let this thread not devolve into a discussion about that...). The 11th article of Faith specifically talks about religious freedom, not any other type of freedom or practice. (I think you're talking about the 11th AoF when you reference 'Joseph's Smith Sr.'s 11th commandment'... I have no idea though. Please correct me if I'm wrong.)

On occasion , Joseph Smith would drink beer prior to WoW. Talk to Ram about this. He has the scoop.

[skalenfehl]

I couldn't do it. Something about "digging a pit for your neighbor". But on the other hand, it won't stop the customer from buying somewhere (else). I can see both sides of the coin.

[Hemidakota]

This was the issue that Marriott faced with selling non-approved WoW products in his hotel chain and catering to the airlines. He knew what he wanted to do but wanted to ensure he was right in doing so.

[Just_A_Guy]

What im asking is: If you owned a store. As an LDS member. Would you or could you sell alcohol or tobacco?

Here's the thing: I view my observance as the Word of Wisdom as the token of a covenant I have made with God; not as the avoidance of substances that are inherently sinful or harmful.

Non-Mormons haven't made that covenant with God; and so the fact that a substance is verboten under the WoW would not per se be, for me, sufficient reason not to sell that substance. If I were to refuse to sell it, it would be because I believed there was a foreseeable social consequence from selling that substance and I wished to avoid that social consequence (much like one might refuse to sell spray paint to a teenager, or a firearm to the town drunk).

[pam]

To me it comes down to agency. Those frequenting your store have the choice to purchase or not. Unfortunately when owning something like a convenience store, you have to cater to what your customers want.

The company I work for is family owned by active LDS members. In fact one just got called to serve at the Mission President for the Ohio Cleveland Mission. He's been a Stake President and many other things.

Just because they sell it, doesn't mean they have also used it. I can see both sides. One you are contributing, but again...it comes down to having to provide what the public wants.

[john doe]

I don't have a problem with a business selling alcohol or tobacco products as long as they are legal to sell in the area. The WOW counsels us to abstain from those items, it does not tell us that we are morally obligated to stop others from making that choice for themselves.

[Everstrivin]

This has been really enlightening, my first thoughts were, "Of course not!", I usually choose to adhere to the more strict side of the law (my wife and I won't buy any movies with even one swear word in them). Now, my eyes have been opened to the none black and whiteness of the dilemma. It seems to me that I would probably sell anti-WoW products to stay in business, but maybe I would put extra disclaimers up, such as those you see on cigarette packages (I'm not actually sure if cigarette boxes have disclaimers on them outside of Canada, so... like there is in Canada anyway).

[Traveler]

I live in the UK and there are people of a certain religion that seem to run alot of stores. There religion teaches them that drinking alcohol is really bad and they are forbidden from drinking it. Yet, ive never been in a single store that members of this religion own, not selling alcohol.

What im asking is: If you owned a store. As an LDS member. Would you or could you sell alcohol or tobacco?

Personally, i couldnt. I would feel like i was a hipocrite.

Who is worse, the junkie or the drug dealer? I would say the dealer is.

Thanks.

Interesting question - when I was in the army (60's) we would receive "C" rations that had cigarettes in small packages of 3 cigarettes. They were donated by the tobacco companies to the military and I am sure this was done to addict our troops. I would save mine until we were in the field where I would either sell single cigarettes for 1 dollar cash or trade to get out of duty or other favors. I could have sold the cigarettes for $5 but at the time I felt that was taking too much the advantage. I would also try to convince my customers to give up smoking.

Hypocrisy? I think so. I was 17 and the youngest and smallest in my company. Now I look back on those days in amazement at the predators that took advantage of troops far from home. Even though I took advantage they all thought me their trusted friend for it.

The Traveler

[Moksha]

As I understand it, Mom&Pop type stores need to sell these items to make a living.

[Lost_one]

What did Marriot do in this situation?

He did what he felt was right for him. I cant judge him or any other person for what they choose to do or sell. The question i asked was: What would you do? As Maxel said. The answer is not as straight forward as it first appears. Personal situation can have a huge impact on your answer.

[chelsea-marie]

I used to work in an off licence (Liquoer store); and I never had any trouble selling those items. If people have yet to hear the gospel in its true restored form they genuinely believe that they are doing nothing wrong; therefore I don't believe it is right to refuse to sell products such as these. Although I was not a member at this time I was already beginning to question my faith; and it wasn't much longer after that when I started teachings from the missionaries.

Certainly in the UK it would severely restrict where one worked. Supermarkets, news agents, off licences, convienience stores, petrol stations, restraunts and even some video rental stores etc. would be included in some of the places than a latter day saint would be unable to work due to refusing to sell tobacco and alcohol.

I think that due to the current financial state of the world as it is at the moment and the difficulty in getting a stable job (certainly in my country) that if I got a job in one of the afforementioned establishments that I would definately take it.

As I said; those who are purchasing tobacco and alcohol products have yet to hear and accept the true restored gospel, and until such a time as they are ready to do so we would be wrong to refuse sales to them based on our personal beliefs. Everyone has the right to believe what they wish to believe.

That is my view upon it any how..

Edited March 3, 2009 by chelsea-marie

[Maya]

My daughter got a very good job... financially... she was not happy to tell about it to me, as she knows LDS and alcohol, after all I did teach her the truth. But I find it a bit hilarious, that she is working in a big beer factory in a very high position, as the person who sometimes has to taste the stuff before it is considered usefull.

Her life is her choise I just taught her what is right.

[Wingnut]

The company I work for is family owned by active LDS members. In fact one just got called to serve at the Mission President for the Ohio Cleveland Mission. He's been a Stake President and many other things.

One of the counselors to the current Ohio Cleveland Mission is in my ward.

[talisyn]

Let me add a crinckle to this discussion. Even if you personally might be okay with selling booze and cigarettes, how would you feel seeing your bishop doing so? In my own faith tradition, I've found myself not doing certain activities that I personally don't believe are wrong, but which would cause confusion within the congregation.

Ohh I have one that comes up a lot with the non-LDS people in my little rural area. What about the Mormons who sell barley to Coors? Seems every non-mo knows a bishop or high councilman that does that

[lilered]

So if one sells alcohol and cigarettes, then instead of perpetuating something bad, it must be good?

[Islander]

It comes back to the spirit of the law. The commandment in the WoW relates to us LDS not consuming those particular staples. It says absolutely nothing about their commercial use and value.

My grandma had a stone mill and we would grind 20 tons of coffee per year. She call it "the devil's brew" since she reasoned that only the devil can come up with something that compel people to do things that seem absurd just to drink a cup. She would charge in spice or a percentage of the total load to grind. At the end of the season we may have as much as 2 tons of grain hoisted in the storage. She would sell that slowly thru the year with the help of a distributor. She never had a cup of coffee in her life. We would also grind cocoa, corn, peanuts and wheat.

We were not members of the church and she died before I could make it to the US and find the church. I tasted coffee twice in my life 15 years ago in the US figuring it was part of the Americana. Did not like it. The stone mill was part of how we made a living, we wanted nothing to do with the product but people have their agency.

[bodhigirlsmiles]

Would you sell alcohol or tobacco?

what about fire arms?

[Fiannan]

a-train states:

I have heard members demonize Marriot for selling alcohol, tobacco, and worse: pornographic movies, in his hotels.

To them, I would uphold again the original Mormon Creed, Joseph Smith Sr.'s 11th Commandment:

MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS.

Okay, let's put the question like this -- if a guy was trying to earn money for his mission, let's say he is 16, and goes down to the used bookstore and gets a bunch of cheap magazines (some travel, some news and some porn) and sets up a stand and starts selling them at a higher price should his bishop say something to him?

I had a friend who might not have been the most orthodox member but he was hired when he was 17 or 18 to clean out a guy's storage units. He took several crates home in his truck and opened them and found all kinds of sellable stuff but one crate was filled with porn -- the kind that had price tags (even two decades ago) ranging from 10 to 50 dollars. He thought about selling them to a local used bookstore but then thought that would be contributing to someone's problems so he dumped them into a landfill. So was he doing the right thing or should he have made a few hundred -- or thousand -- (which he certainly could have used) and put them back into circulation?

[a-train]

I'm minding my own business.

-a-train

[Hemidakota]

a-train states:

Okay, let's put the question like this -- if a guy was trying to earn money for his mission, let's say he is 16, and goes down to the used bookstore and gets a bunch of cheap magazines (some travel, some news and some porn) and sets up a stand and starts selling them at a higher price should his bishop say something to him?

I had a friend who might not have been the most orthodox member but he was hired when he was 17 or 18 to clean out a guy's storage units. He took several crates home in his truck and opened them and found all kinds of sellable stuff but one crate was filled with porn -- the kind that had price tags (even two decades ago) ranging from 10 to 50 dollars. He thought about selling them to a local used bookstore but then thought that would be contributing to someone's problems so he dumped them into a landfill. So was he doing the right thing or should he have made a few hundred -- or thousand -- (which he certainly could have used) and put them back into circulation?

Hmm.....I would of burn them to ensure know one else gets the material. I clearly see your point.

[Janadele]

I personally would not sell nor provide any substance detrimental to the body.

[Anddenex]

I like to be the devil's advocate regarding these types of questions, especially when I hear/read people say something to the nature of:

As long as you are not partaking of the sin, then it is ok

I then like to say, to ruffle some feathers,

So you don't think the Lord would mind if I become a pimp as long as I am not committing fornication myself? Or, as long as I don't look at the pornography myself, it is ok if I own a website that is pornographic, as long as others who aren't under the same covenant I have made, are the ones looking at it and allowing others to do so also.

Personally, I wouldn't be able to sell alcohol or tobacco.