Utah No. 1 in online porn subscriptions, report says

[Just_A_Guy]

Does the name start with Blue? hahahaha

I wouldn't really know.

[yohoya]

i grew up in the liberal, lovely San Fran bay area of California, and have found living in utah to be tremendously hard the past 2 years. temptation was everywhere in california, but for some reason i feel the presence of Satan a lot more here. I chalk it up to also getting to feel the spirit so often, that Satan is very aware how easy it can be to to be LDS here (what with so much cool lds stuff, like byu, temples, bookstores, and neat details that show its super acceptable to be lds). does that sound crazy, or does anyone feel the same? i think utah is a hard place to live. i can really believe porn is heavily viewed here. its a breeze to come by most anywhere else, and much more acceptable.

[Stampede]

Quoted from a Conference talk given by Carlos E. Asay, “Opposition to the Work of God,” Ensign, Nov 1981, 67

On November 1, 1857, Elder George A. Smith delivered a memorable discourse, which included this old Chinese fable:

“A man travelling through the country came to a large city, very rich and splendid; he looked at it and said to his guide, ‘This must be a very righteous people, for I can only see but one little devil in this great city.’

“The guide replied, ‘You do not understand, sir. This city is so perfectly given up to wickedness … that it requires but one devil to keep them all in subjection.’

“Travelling on a little farther, he came to a rugged path and saw an old man trying to get up the hill side, surrounded by seven great, big, coarse-looking devils.

“ ‘Why,’ says the traveller, ‘this must be a tremendously wicked old man! See how many devils there are around him!’

“ ‘This,’ replied the guide, ‘is the only righteous man in the country; and there are seven of the biggest devils trying to turn him out of his path, and they all cannot do it.’ ” (Journal of Discourses, 5:363–64.)

[Wingnut]

Quoted from a Conference talk given by Carlos E. Asay, “Opposition to the Work of God,” Ensign, Nov 1981, 67

On November 1, 1857, Elder George A. Smith delivered a memorable discourse, which included this old Chinese fable:

“A man travelling through the country came to a large city, very rich and splendid; he looked at it and said to his guide, ‘This must be a very righteous people, for I can only see but one little devil in this great city.’

“The guide replied, ‘You do not understand, sir. This city is so perfectly given up to wickedness … that it requires but one devil to keep them all in subjection.’

“Travelling on a little farther, he came to a rugged path and saw an old man trying to get up the hill side, surrounded by seven great, big, coarse-looking devils.

“ ‘Why,’ says the traveller, ‘this must be a tremendously wicked old man! See how many devils there are around him!’

“ ‘This,’ replied the guide, ‘is the only righteous man in the country; and there are seven of the biggest devils trying to turn him out of his path, and they all cannot do it.’ ” (Journal of Discourses, 5:363–64.)

I get the point that you're trying to make. However, the difference here isn't just that there is porn surrounding the saints in Utah, but rather that people in Utah pay a greater percentage of money for porn than people in any other state so. They're choosing it.

[Stampede]

I get the point that you're trying to make. However, the difference here isn't just that there is porn surrounding the saints in Utah, but rather that people in Utah pay a greater percentage of money for porn than people in any other state so. They're choosing it.

And youa re right, my statement was incomplete...

There are those that fold under the temptations because there is so much of it in abundance where there is the greatest influence to do good.

Satan tries his hardest in the places that are not so easy. And it is sad that he succeeds in those places.

It's very similar to how the Nephites became wicked and prideful.

[Wingnut]

And youa re right, my statement was incomplete...

There are those that fold under the temptations because there is so much of it in abundance where there is the greatest influence to do good.

Satan tries his hardest in the places that are not so easy. And it is sad that he succeeds in those places.

It's very similar to how the Nephites became wicked and prideful.

I still get your point, but I also still don't agree with it. :)

[gigi]

Having grown up in Vegas where driving down the street is quite similar to viewing porn I agree with Stampede. It was easy being LDS here (70's), because all our other school friends had a certain expectation from us. Not everyone 'held up' - but it was so different from the Utah kids who stood out by being 'bad' - just my experience. It does seem like Satan's strategies would center on the strong....wherever they are.

[Janice]

Being on different LDS message boards for a while i have found when a stats says Utah has the least out of wedlock births, least problems with alcohol etc. The influence of the church is cited as the prime cause because most of Utah is Mormon. However when depression rates ,pornography etc. Negative aspect are brought up the attempt is to down play the Churches influence in the state.

My thoughts exactly, and I think this kind of attitude speaks to a much larger LDS phenomenon. Ok, it's actually a human phenomenon, but we Mormons seem to do a fine job of demonstrating it well: We prop up our successes and display them proudly for the world to see, and we sweep our troubles under the rug and pretend they don't exist. The overall response here is surprising to me. "Blah... don't pay any attention to that. Studies don't actually MEAN anything!"

Rather then explain away why these studies don't actually mean some Mormons have a problem with pornography, I'd like to see us discuss WHY some Mormons have a problem with pornography.

Janice

[Islander]

My thoughts exactly, and I think this kind of attitude speaks to a much larger LDS phenomenon. Ok, it's actually a human phenomenon, but we Mormons seem to do a fine job of demonstrating it well: We prop up our successes and display them proudly for the world to see, and we sweep our troubles under the rug and pretend they don't exist. The overall response here is surprising to me. "Blah... don't pay any attention to that. Studies don't actually MEAN anything!"

Rather then explain away why these studies don't actually mean some Mormons have a problem with pornography, I'd like to see us discuss WHY some Mormons have a problem with pornography.

Janice

Well, simple. For others pornography is NOT a problem. It is a perfectly acceptable sexual-recreational activity with no moral or social impact and it is not questioned by the secular majority.

For us IT IS a problem. The Lord has revealed that it is contrary to his will, against the covenant and it has no place in our midst. Some few young men have succumbed to the temptation and have fallen in a pattern of addiction. Because we shun the practice, when it is found among us the critics use it as fuel for the fire. If it were not a doctrinal issue for us it would be a mute issue.

It is after all a political issue. The press is not eager to showcase that the "Mormon Belt" has the lowest rates in the world for:

-the use of mood stabilizers for ADHD

-lung cancer

-liver cancer

-fetal alcoholic syndrome.

-HIV/AIDS

-STD's

-drug and alcohol use.

Should I carry on?

[Moksha]

I'd like to see us discuss WHY some Mormons have a problem with pornography.

Janice

I think Maya was suggesting earlier that this is an offshoot from having to give up polygamy.

[Islander]

I think Maya was suggesting earlier that this is an offshoot from having to give up polygamy.

Not really.

Again, there is no evidence of the likelihood that LDS men and women view pornography, in statistically significant larger numbers than a random sample of the US population at large.

WE have raised the issue because it is not an acceptable practice for us. And the critics points to that same issue and theorize why we have a "problem". Do we question why there are people addicted to alcohol or drugs in Utah?

[Janice]

Some few young men have succumbed to the temptation and have fallen in a pattern of addiction.

Some few? I hope that is true. I really do.

My husband gives me a full report of every General Conference Priesthood talk,, and I also read them in the Ensign. I can't recall the last time someone did not speak about pornography. When I joined this forum I was surprised to see the number of posts my LDS wives saying "Help! My husband is addicted to pornography!"

Again, I am alarmed at the tone of response to this. Everyone seems to be saying, "Porn problem? What porn problem. Mormons don't have a porn problem. Ok, maybe a few, but no more so then the rest of society."

Based on the frequency it gets talked about in General Conference, it seems to be much larger then "some few".

Janice

[Janice]

Not really.

Again, there is no evidence of the likelihood that LDS men and women view pornography, in statistically significant larger numbers than a random sample of the US population at large.

WE have raised the issue because it is not an acceptable practice for us. And the critics points to that same issue and theorize why we have a "problem". Do we question why there are people addicted to alcohol or drugs in Utah?

The issue is not about porn in Utah, it's about porn amongst Mormons. I DO wish someone would do such a study. If our leaders spoke about alcohol and drugs as frequently as they do about pornography, then I'd say we *would* need to be as concerned.

Again (sorry if I am repeating myself), I am really surprised that the overall response is not, "Yes, there is a problem with Porn in our ranks. Let's theorize on why and what should be done." Instead, what I am seeing is, "Huh? Porn? Nope. No problem."

Janice

[prospectmom]

Again (sorry if I am repeating myself), I am really surprised that the overall response is not, "Yes, there is a problem with Porn in our ranks. Let's theorize on why and what should be done." Instead, what I am seeing is, "Huh? Porn? Nope. No problem."

Denial is what keeps us from growing and getting out of bad situations... that is how we use to treat child abuse, domestic abuse we prettended it wasn't there.... Porn is a seroious problem for everyone not just Mormons but we all have to face the issue.. not turn a blind eye and pretend it is not a problem.

Janice I totally see what you are saying

[MarginOfError]

Some few? I hope that is true. I really do.

My husband gives me a full report of every General Conference Priesthood talk,, and I also read them in the Ensign. I can't recall the last time someone did not speak about pornography. When I joined this forum I was surprised to see the number of posts my LDS wives saying "Help! My husband is addicted to pornography!"

Again, I am alarmed at the tone of response to this. Everyone seems to be saying, "Porn problem? What porn problem. Mormons don't have a porn problem. Ok, maybe a few, but no more so then the rest of society."

Based on the frequency it gets talked about in General Conference, it seems to be much larger then "some few".

Janice

It's ironic you say that when one of the Conference's last year (I seem to think it was October, but I'm not entirely sure) left me shocked that not once did I hear the word 'pornography.'

[Faded]

Some few? I hope that is true. I really do.

My husband gives me a full report of every General Conference Priesthood talk,, and I also read them in the Ensign. I can't recall the last time someone did not speak about pornography. When I joined this forum I was surprised to see the number of posts my LDS wives saying "Help! My husband is addicted to pornography!"

Again, I am alarmed at the tone of response to this. Everyone seems to be saying, "Porn problem? What porn problem. Mormons don't have a porn problem. Ok, maybe a few, but no more so then the rest of society."

Based on the frequency it gets talked about in General Conference, it seems to be much larger then "some few".

Janice

I think dancing around the issue is extremely non-productive. Yes, there is a significant pornography problem in the Church. It is one of the greatest challenges facing the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints today. Anyone downplaying its current rampant destruction of our Church members hasn't got their head straight. It's too easily accessible online, plain and simple.

I think it's only natural to try to talk your way out of a huge black mark on the center-place of your religion. It's easily done.

You won't likely hear banter about "false and misleading statistics" about the Gallup Poll that found Utah to be the happiest state in the country. Why? Because it reflects well on us. Meanwhile, you're likely to hear "false and misleading statistics" kinds of rhetoric from West Virginia, who came in last on that study. The truth of the matter is, nobody wants to be the rated the worst at a bad thing. Everyone likes to be rated first at a good thing.

I'd be more interested in hearing solutions rather than excuses, personally.

[Fiannan]

I remember a class in psychology I had in college in which research was presented that found children raised in nudist homes had a much later age of staying virgins than the national average -- I would suspect that these youth spend far less time surfing porn as well.

Could there be something to consider in regards to this?

[MarginOfError]

I finally received the actual research article yesterday. The article was written by Benjamin Edelman in The Journal of Economic Perspectives. Having reviewed it, I have the following comments to make:

• There is no methods section to speak of. Edelman fails to specify what method of analysis he used. Linear regression seems to be the most likely, but the wording he uses suggests that logistic regression may have been used.
• Without a description of methods, and without more information about the data site, reproducibility of these results is impossible. Edelman has essentially requested that his word be the final word on the issue, and that we trust his findings. This is not consistent with scientific research. Having done this, Edelman has left himself open to suspicion that he is hiding something, or that he doesn’t want others to verify his work.
• His data set is huge. While this is generally taken to be a good thing, it can overemphasize results of an analysis. Comparisons between groups (such as comparisons of subscription rates between states) are based on variability between states. But variance is a measure that is dependent on sample size, with the sample size being in the denominator of the variance calculation. Thus, when the sample size is large, the variance is small, and it becomes possible to demonstrate statistical significance of smaller differences. In medicine, we refer to this as the tension between statistical significance and clinical significance—statistical significance is not always meaningful.
• Edelman doesn’t describe the fit of his model, nor does he mention if residual analysis was performed. We have no idea how well his statistical models fit reality. Poor model fit can cause erroneous interpretations.

Even if we assume that Edelman’s research is valid, credible, and accurate, the results as presented in the news articles written about this research are poorly represented. You may also want to consider these points that Edelman makes

• subscription rates are quite homogeneous across the country. For instance, consider comparing the population densities of New Jersey and Wyoming (1,175 and 5.25 people per square mile, respectively); the ratio of these densities is 223:1. Yet the ratio of subscription rates between these states is 0.99:1 (almost identical). The ratio of the state with the most pornography subscriptions (Utah with 5.47 per 1,000 broadband homes) to the state with the fewest (Montana with 1.92 per 1,000 broadband homes) and you get a ratio of 2.85—the ratio of percentage of population over age 65 between Pennsylvania and Alaska is 2.86.
• as the density of young people (age 15 – 24) in an area increased, so did the subscription rate.
• as the density of married people in an area increased, the subscription rate decreased.
• as the density of divorced people in an area increased, the subscription rate decreased.
• areas where more people held bachelors degrees had higher subscription rates
• areas where more people held graduate degrees had lower subscription rates
• subscriptions are more prevalent in urban areas than in rural areas
• subscription rates in areas identified as religious were no different than in areas identified as non-religious. However, in religious areas, new subscriptions were lower on Sunday than on any other day of the week.
• Edelman also reported that escort services were more popular in blue states while in pornography subscriptions were more popular in red states (particularly wife swapping sites).

So why the big deal about Utah ranking at the top? It isn’t a big deal really, it’s just irony convenient for news sensationalism. The rates are actually rather homogeneous across the country. There are a number of factors that may offer bits of an explanation for why Utah’s subscription rate is higher, but all of the associations cited are small and may only be identified as significant because of the very large sample size. Furthermore, the fit of the model has not been demonstrated and the information needed to reproduce the results is unavailable. Speaking from my professional expertise, the only reason I can see for this article to get any news time at all is because it makes a great headline that caters to a populace that doesn’t have the skills to critically evaluate the research.

Once again, I must leave my behind my rule of understanding research reported in the news: If it’s reported in the news, it probably isn’t good research.

[Wingnut]

When I joined this forum I was surprised to see the number of posts my LDS wives saying "Help! My husband is addicted to pornography!"

What has surprised me is not the number of women saying this, but the naivete they exhibit. The General Authorities have been speaking about pornography for years (as you mentioned) -- did these women really think that "porn is other people" (to paraphrase)? For as much as it's talked about, we probably all know at least one LDS person who is also addicted to porn (we may not know they are, but if it's really as prevalent as the talks would suggest...).

• subscription rates in areas identified as religious were no different than in areas identified as non-religious. However, in religious areas, new subscriptions were lower on Sunday than on any other day of the week.

Amusing.

[Islander]

The problem is always the problem, my Bishop often says.

What I tried to say is that regardless of the extent of the pornography problem, it is an addiction just like any other. The fact that it made the headlines only points to the political motivations and that, likely, it is garbage data collection called "research." Just like drug and alcohol addictions, we are not sure about the rate of incidence. The brethren are as concern about pornography among the members of the Church as they are about divorce which is much higher in terms of statistics.

[Fiannan]

The problem is always the problem, my Bishop often says.

What I tried to say is that regardless of the extent of the pornography problem, it is an addiction just like any other. The fact that it made the headlines only points to the political motivations and that, likely, it is garbage data collection called "research." Just like drug and alcohol addictions, we are not sure about the rate of incidence. The brethren are as concern about pornography among the members of the Church as they are about divorce which is much higher in terms of statistics.

They should be way more concerned about divorce since, if we were to use a morbidity analogy divorce is as dangerous to family life as a head on car wreck without seat belts while porn is more a fender bender resulting in whip lash.